The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra

[Archangel]

Exactly. I don't remember reading that. I don't think it was even inferred.

Decoy implied it.

Either way, it strikes me as a cathartic match up. The Goliath Scorpions let their scientist caste do the same thing the Coyote's scientist caste did and were given every opportunity to put their house in order. Not to mention the Goliath Scorpions oversaw the cleansing of the Coyote clan.

A member of the Coyote scientist caste was elected Khan thereby giving them (and by extension the Society) effective control of the Clan.

(Side note:  It is one of the many issues I have with WoR, most of which revolve around individuals, if not entire Clans, acting against their established character but was allowed because the author was given free reign as long as the desired end results were reached.  I mean seriously how is a member of the scientist caste even eligible for becoming Khan in Clan Coyote?  After all they weren't the Diamond Sharks.)

It was just after the Wars of Reaving, everyone was still uncomfortable with the Society's gene games, what the Scorps did would be fine if it weren't for that, so the Cobras heavily trumped it up to paint the Scorps in an evil light and do them away with.

Don't forget why the Reavings started in the first place.  The ELH DNA was tainted by the Grand Council's established standards and should have been disposed of.  When questioned about the ELH members adopted by the Scorpions, they replied that they had all either been killed in combat or tested out of the warrior caste.  Instead the Scorpions were secretly looking to introduce their genes into their gene pool.  They were at the pinnacle of their power, but were impatient and got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

They should have hidden the ELH genes away and waited a couple years for the situation to stabilize before starting work on the genes.  Instead they started working on them while some of the surviving Clans were still looking to strengthen their blood pools which is why the Cobras attacked in the first place.

[RotS fan]

(Side note:  It is one of the many issues I have with WoR, most of which revolve around individuals, if not entire Clans, acting against their established character but was allowed because the author was given free reign as long as the desired end results were reached.  I mean seriously how is a member of the scientist caste even eligible for becoming Khan in Clan Coyote?  After all they weren't the Diamond Sharks.)

individuals, sometimes entire cultures, change through time. WoR was the first time (that I can remember) Clans and their population were acting like real people instead of a monolithic "Warrior culture" that didn't changed over the centuries. The Coyotes elected a scientist because they changed the rules. The unbelievable part isn't that they change it, is that they took ~200 years to do so

[Archangel]

individuals, sometimes entire cultures, change through time. WoR was the first time (that I can remember) Clans and their population were acting like real people instead of a monolithic "Warrior culture" that didn't changed over the centuries. The Coyotes elected a scientist because they changed the rules. The unbelievable part isn't that they change it, is that they took ~200 years to do so

Yes individuals and entire cultures change over time not overnight.  Khan Kufahl firmly believed that "tradition and honor [were] the guiding ideals of his Clan" (FM:WC, p48) yet in WoR he forsook both when he joined forces with the Society before the Wars of Reaving had even seriously begun and authorized Clan forces to initiate dezgra attacks without even trying more traditional means (meaning Trials of course) of stopping the reavings that the Coyotes and the Society opposed.

Regardless this discussion belongs in its own separate thread.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Okay, I can agree to that interpretation. It made a handy excuse to get rid of a Clan the Adders couldn't control, in any case.

Yeah. They weren't a Snake Ally. Plus the Cobras have a good track record of backstabbing people.

The way the Cobra assault on the genetic facility was written implies that they knew what the Scorps were doing beforehand and wanted real evidence to present to the Grand Council.

[Jaim Magnus]

Yeah. They weren't a Snake Ally. Plus the Cobras have a good track record of backstabbing people.

The way the Cobra assault on the genetic facility was written implies that they knew what the Scorps were doing beforehand and wanted real evidence to present to the Grand Council.

I thought it was more a matter of the Cobra's being desperate for genetic material. Their own samples were hopelessly corrupted, and they were equally desperate to keep that a secret.

[jackson123]

So their actions ended up costing them a spot with the home clans and forced them to run for safety. They might make good middle men for a inner sphere home clan conflict.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I thought it was more a matter of the Cobra's being desperate for genetic material. Their own samples were hopelessly corrupted, and they were equally desperate to keep that a secret.

I don't know for sure, but the ilKhan did put a moratorium on the genetics program, so everyone was on an equal footing during that time. The Cobras didn't need to be that desperate.

[Jaim Magnus]

From p. 161 of The Wars of Reaving:

The news was worse than bad: it was almost catastrophic. Most of the genetic legacies were tainted through gene mixing with unidentified strains. In some cases, the legacies were untouched except through heavy radioactive exposure. Roughly nine percent of the Clan’s genetic heritage was pure; the rest were suspected or conclusively corrupted in some manner.

So I'd say that made them desperate. This led to the following (from p. 162)

In early 3078, Cobra scientists had finished their secondary project on Strana Mechty and identified a large number of Ice Hellion genetic legacies (now held by the Scorpions) that would help rebuild the Cobra’s genetic stock.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Yeah, that is agreeable  O0

[glitterboy2098]

so does that make them the Ice Cobras or the Cloud Hellions?  ;D

[Jaim Magnus]

so does that make them the Ice Cobras or the Cloud Hellions?  ;D

Whichever the Adders allow them to be ;)

[jklantern]

Whichever the Adders allow them to be ;)

Well, guess I'm now a fan of the Pink Pony Clan...

[truetanker]

Well, guess I'm now a fan of the Pink Pony Clan...

Oh? You sure about this? Now now... there's a real chance we Pink Ponies won't like your codex, quiaff?

TT

[ColBosch]

Oh? You sure about this? Now now... there's a real chance we Pink Ponies won't like your codex, quiaff?

I'm sure he'll be a good fit. He got top marks in Prancing and Making Poop Out Of Grass.

[truetanker]

I don't know... we made that Teddy Bear guy cry last time.

TT

[ColBosch]

I don't know... we made that Teddy Bear guy cry last time.

But...but...friendship is ammunition, right? Or something like that.

[Jaim Magnus]

But...but...friendship is ammunition, right? Or something like that.

Huh, I thought it was friends are ammunition.

[jklantern]

Huh, I thought it was friends are ammunition.

Por que no las dos?

[Col.Hengist]

Huh, I thought it was friends are ammunition.

 Yup, elementals are gauss ammunition and armor..

[rebs]

The newest about the Coyotes attacking the Imperio has me thinking of that old bit about the dog and the scorpion.

Wonder how the upcoming forwarding of plot will play out...  Will we have stalemate?  Or will one of them push the other out of Nueva Castile?

Which brings to mind a hope that the Scorpions DO NOT have all their eggs in this basket.  Surely they must realize they will be among the first targets of the Home Clans' thunder when it rolls out of the Kerensky Cluster.

[Deadborder]

The Scorpions weren't exactly in a position where they had room to make choices. The Imperio is it for a reason

[jklantern]

If the Scorpions became El Imperio...I wonder what the Coyotes will become...

Could...we possibly end up with DON COYOTE?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Nah. They're already Apaches. Their battlecry should be "Geronimo!"

[jklantern]

Nah. They're already Apaches. Their battlecry should be "Geronimo!"

Wait.  I just had a terrible/awesome thought.

We have Space Spain meeting up with Space Native Americans.

Guys.  Guys.  We're about to have...Space MEXICO!!!!!!!

The Deep Periphery is the BEST Periphery!!!!!!!   :D

[Gaiiten]

If the Coyotes alone are capable to conquer the Imperio, I somewhat doubt. IMHO there are not strong enough.

It might be an example for the Homeclans that without Adder leadership and united efforts they will e defeated.

[Decoy]

Coyotes as Apaches? Nah. Apaches struck me as more Cougar favoring or Wolf favoring than Coyote. More physically powerful and direct. I will admit that my perception of Coyote and coyotes is flavored by the native tribes I have lived near. *glances at a pack of coyotes that live closer to Humptulips than any Jade Falcon will ever get*

As far as strength goes, we do not know how big the Coyote's growth explosion was. We also do not know how far the Goliath Scorpions have degraded in their time on the Castillan Worlds. It all boils down to Not Enough Information. For my own part, the Imperio has too many strikes against it. They lack infrastructure, stability, and cohesion. The Coyotes as written seem to have more going for them.

[Archangel]

Well the 3103 attack is more than 20 years after the WoR.  Unlike the Scorpions who were forced to manufacture primitive BattleMechs, the Coyotes actually were capable of manufacturing Clan-tech equipment throughout this period and were able to trade/trial for most of what they couldn't.  The Scorpions didn't have a shipyard capable of repairing their WarShips or manufacturing new DropShips/JumpShips, they would have had to build the from scratch.  In addition to the setbacks all the surviving Clans' eugenics programs suffered during the Wars of Reaving, the Scorpions suffered the additional delay of having to relocate their entire program and build new facilities to house it.  Where the Coyotes could sharpen their skills in trials against the other Clans, the Imperio could only train against themselves and the occasional Clan raid.  Finally, the last we heard from the Imperio was that members of Clan Coyote's Watch were able to cause considerable internal unrest between the Clanners and the local inhabitants which slowed the Imperio's efforts considerably.

The Imperio had a lot of ground to make up in order to have any chance of surviving a serious Clan assault.

[Deadborder]

Sadly true. As much as I would love to see the Coyotes get their collective posteriors handed to them, I know that the odds do not favour the Imperio.

[trboturtle]

If the Scorpions became El Imperio...I wonder what the Coyotes will become...

Could...we possibly end up with DON COYOTE?

More like Wil E. Coyote........  O:-)

Craig

(No, not a prediction or a hint, merely a joke, with no basis in any knowledge of Battletech universal reality......Translation: I have no idea what's going to happen with that area of the universe....)

[truetanker]

I don't trust you trboturtle... not since Wombat shined your shell and stuck that dance pole on you and did the moonwalk on your back... way back when.


But then again, I've been wrong before... just blame jklantern, yeah him he started it.

TT  O:-)