The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I just think it would be a shame to homogenize the Empire too much. That would kill their appeal as the all-over-the-place tech faction.

It's not just homogeneity. It's efficiency. For example, the Wehrmacht insisted on many different models of Panzers while the US Army stuck to variants of the Sherman. It turned out to be a production and logistics hell for the Germans.

It's exciting that the Empire finally got a bunch of new Mechs. The only Scorpion Mech before they came to Nueva Castile was the Fire Scorpion. Gotta thank the writers for this.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Why are we assuming they'd have the resources to feed the extra mech factories? Again, the whole point is that Protos consume far less resources to make. Converting a Proto factory to mech lines doesn't gives you mechs unless you also have a new source for all the extra raw materials that line would require.

The Empire now covers a whole lot of planets compared to the sparse Homeworld holdings they had before Abjuration. That's a manifold increase in resources. It's just a question of time and investment in proper resource extraction.

Is there a source for this, side from the general bit saying EI is less common among Warden Clans than Crusaders?

Any viably long-term military would frown at a system that causes lethal electric shocks, gradual lifetime mental instability, nerve damage, many many mental disorders and disabilities and a good chance that the warrior will be unfit for duty within three years and probably die from the side effects.

The modern warrior/soldier represents a significant investment of resources. Not even the Crusaders ever instituted a policy of mandatory adoption of EI implants.

There's the problem of the Protos' transportation needs too. The military would need to invest in additional dedicated Proto carriers like the Arcadia or waste time and resources on converting conventional transports to have Proto bays.

This also leads to those Proto carriers taking up more collars on the even more valuable JumpShips when they could be filled by Aero, Mech or conventional combined-arms carriers.

[Weirdo]

So no source, just speculation and extrapolation.

[Doc Swift]

Oh? Hey, thanks for reading!

[Angrii]

I don't understand the debate. Protos are in the MUL and the MUL is canon, no? So regardless of the complete lack of reference to them one way or the other in Hanseatic Crusade, that's how it is.

And if you know differently Doc, then please just spell it out. Thanks.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The debate is thus: From the tabletop point of view, the addition of Protos are good for variety. But from a realistic PoV, the addition of Protos is an unnecessary burden on any faction's logistics.

If it's the rule of cool, yeah bring on the Protos. But BT is hard sci-fi, so Protos aren't that useful for the Scorpions when they should rationalize their production.

Protos were very useful for the Spirits because they were desperate and low on resources. The current prime users of Protos, Horses and Ravens, were both also resource-poor compared to their neighbours. With the Horses' recent conquests, I doubt they would need to rely that heavily on Protos.

[Angrii]

The debate is thus: From the tabletop point of view, the addition of Protos are good for variety. But from a realistic PoV, the addition of Protos is an unnecessary burden on any faction's logistics.

If it's the rule of cool, yeah bring on the Protos. But BT is hard sci-fi, so Protos aren't that useful for the Scorpions when they should rationalize their production.

Protos were very useful for the Spirits because they were desperate and low on resources. The current prime users of Protos, Horses and Ravens, were both also resource-poor compared to their neighbours. With the Horses' recent conquests, I doubt they would need to rely that heavily on Protos.

All valid points, I admit. I'm just saying that though they may be on their way out and very rarely used, they do still have them. That's all.

[Weirdo]

Oh? Hey, thanks for reading!

I apologize, but my memory can be poor, and for the life of me I don't remember any sourcebook or pdf that says the Scorpions specifically avoid EI. I'd love to be corrected if I missed a product.

The debate is thus: From the tabletop point of view, the addition of Protos are good for variety. But from a realistic PoV, the addition of Protos is an unnecessary burden on any faction's logistics.

If it's the rule of cool, yeah bring on the Protos. But BT is hard sci-fi, so Protos aren't that useful for the Scorpions when they should rationalize their production.

Here's my question: Why are we expecting the Scorpions to streamline and rationalize their manufacturing and logistics base when no other faction in Battletech is held to the same standard? Why do other factions get to be fun, but the Scorpions can't?

[truetanker]

Doc Swift ~ Oh? Hey, thanks for reading!

I apologize, but my memory can be poor, and for the life of me I don't remember any sourcebook or pdf that says the Scorpions specifically avoid EI. I'd love to be corrected if I missed a product.

I think he's talking to me? He wrote Cats of War I & II.

I wouldn't mind if Doc wrote more of the animorphed Felines he's done, but working at a Pleasure Circus defending against a pressing Scorpion Seeker unit searching for fabled treasures in a 3150 MoC setting.

And I was wondering if he'd continue with a Battletech version but less fantasy. Which is why I suggested a Pleasure Circus as defenders...

TT

[CJC070]

I apologize, but my memory can be poor, and for the life of me I don't remember any sourcebook or pdf that says the Scorpions specifically avoid EI. I'd love to be corrected if I missed a product.

You may be thinking about Targeting Computers. 

Personally I don’t think the Scorpions use Protos often but considering the transformation from Clan-Escorpion Imperio - Scorpion Empire they want to explore every avenue to protect themselves.  Also by understanding Protomechs they can develop countermeasures when facing the Homeworld Clans.

[Weirdo]

On another note, I converted a Rhino!

[rebs]

Nice!

[pat_hdx]

Shrug.

1) Protos are fluffed as being resource efficient.
2) The Scorps had plenty of time to get the relevant machinery and tooling off Roche, and if they were unsure of their resource situation in Castillian Space, it would make sense to prioritise bringing that machinery.
3) They made it a point to bring a large supply of excess Protomech AC8s with them, which is why the Reptar initially was armed with it.
4) The Crimson Seeker book highlighted that one of the top Seeker units going into the Dark Age  had an elite Protomech pilot with Society tech.
5) The large facility on Navarre (I believe) was fluffed as absolutely huge, and if you already brought the tooling it would be efficient to add a Proto line and take advantage of the huge training and logistics operation being set up.

So, lets be honest, a case can be made either way that Protos do or do not make sense for the Empire. It is 100% a question of Developer and Authour taste. I am of the opinion that the vision set out by Eliot Want in Spotlight on Crimson Seekers should have been expanded on, because big changes in the unit directions that are hinted in one publication, and then substantially changed in another constitute a big change in the flavor of a faction that give fans unneeded whiplash.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

All valid points, I admit. I'm just saying that though they may be on their way out and very rarely used, they do still have them. That's all.

That is to be sure. They do still have them.

With the integration efforts of Castilians and Hansa, it would be more cost-effective and much simpler to train them in infantry, armor or Mechs.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Here's my question: Why are we expecting the Scorpions to streamline and rationalize their manufacturing and logistics base when no other faction in Battletech is held to the same standard? Why do other factions get to be fun, but the Scorpions can't?

Everyone has different definitions of "fun". Some like Protos, others like TC-equipped Mechs, for example. You are welcome to your idea of it.

Integrating a realm larger than your existing base is expensive in the short- to mid- term. The Scorpions will have to balance civil-social and military development like they did with the Castilians. It was a good endeavour when they stopped only using sticks to control the conquered populations and gave the Castilians the Trials of Worth, the sub-castes etc, so they should continue doing it with the Hansa. Their military budget would be better served with rationalization.

[Weirdo]

Still trying to find out why the Scorpions are one of the only factions in Battletech that are expected to do this.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Because this is the Scorpion thread. Discussing about other factions doing this belongs to their respective threads.

[Weirdo]

I've been to other threads. None of the ones I've seen demand this of their factions. And none has ever behaved this way in canon.

[Doc Swift]

The Scorpions are unique in other ways. Should those distinctive traits also be done away with?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Scorpions are unique in other ways. Should those distinctive traits also be done away with?

Seekers, their SLDF heritage, Indiana Jones culture etc, definitely should stay :thumbsup:

They have a ton of unique cultural quirks!

[Weirdo]

The whole time, I've been arguing against eliminating things that make the Scorpions unique and interesting. I apologize if my words somehow came across as expressing the exact opposite, but I'm really not sure how I could have been less subtle while staying within the bounds of civil conversation.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I've been to other threads. And none has ever behaved this way in canon.

Clan Wolf focused on their existing unit types instead of Protos. Clan Jade Falcon discontinued their Protos too. Ghost Bears and Sea Foxes never bothered. All four Clans have negligible investment in this unit type, and they are still doing well.

[Weirdo]

Every single one of them however has moved well beyond being purely a Clantech Mech/Suit/Fighter faction, which is what I've been railing against. Protos are just one of the things I'm wanting to see the Scorpions retain, not the sum total.

[Sartris]

the isolated nature of the region and a low attrition rate means they'll likely hold on to as much as possible. especially since they have a substantial new territory to integrate. a lack of consistent trade means their push back to clantech is probably going to be a grind. it's not like hansa's military industrial infrastructure has much to contribute in a massive expansion of hardware production.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Yes, all that integration and then uplifting so many planets to Clantech means they will hold on to what they currently have until new industries come online. But, if allowed to complete this process, their overall tech level will be uniformly Clan compared to the Clans with OZs or the Raven Alliance.

[Weirdo]

Only if the writers let that tragedy happen.

[Doc Swift]

Eventually, all restaurants will be Taco Bell.

[Weirdo]

Give me cheese curds or give me death!

[Doc Swift]

Seems I remember writing something about a cheese war in the TC...

[Weirdo]

You did the Maestros de Queso? Nice. 8)

On a side note, I believe Scorpion Seekers, merchants, and other agents travel to the Inner Sphere far more often than we think, as evidenced by our access to the brand-new Dire Wolf T config. The reverse is also likely true, as it makes sense for the Scorpions to continue to allow outside merchants to continue accessing the former Hansa open trading worlds.