What would have happened if the clan invasion was the SLDF invasion?

[Question]

-No clans, SLDF stays SLDF and uses SLDF tactics/organization/etc

-A direct descendant of Kerensky remains the commander of the SLDF

-At the start of the invasion, the SLDF announces they are restoring the Star league with Terra as the capital. The houses and periphery states are offered surrender, which they refuse (at least at first). The trigger for the invasion could be the formation of the Fed Com as an IS united under the FC at some point in the future would be unlikely to accept the return of the SLDF and would have the full resources of the IS to fight back, and would likely have rediscovered more lostech to boot.

-Warships are used to attack military dropships, obtain aerospace superiority and bombard military targets. Jumpships generally surrender if within range of a warship.

-The same number of mechs are used at each phase of the invasion, except organized along SLDF lines. No bidding down forces.

-Clan designs are used except that they dont have the low armor/ammo problems because there are no short trials that they were designed specifically for.

-Quality of troops are the same, front line troops on the offense with reserve units being used for garrison, etc.

-Wolf's dragoons still gets sent to gather intelligence, but staffed by spies with mechwarrior training rather than random freeborns. They don't switch sides as they have no reason to.

Biggest question is what Comstar does, off the top of my head didnt Blake promise Kerensky that Comstar would be waiting for his return or something?

[Daryk]

If it's really the SLDF with SLDF tactics, I don't think it matters what ComStar does.  The only words that come to mind are "curb stomp".  The Houses will probably go nuclear first, but the SLDF will do it LAST.

[Takiro]

An SLDF in Exile perhaps supported by the population of an InnerSphere capital world likely will have even less troops than the Clans do. So unless Kerensky comes out of a time warp your looking a tiny remnant of the Exodus forces invading the InnerSphere. How big do you think they would be by 3050? What would their cause for war be? If surrender is offered  then the Houses know your coming and your likely going to have less surprise on your side. 

[Pat Payne]

An SLDF in Exile perhaps supported by the population of an InnerSphere capital world likely will have even less troops than the Clans do. So unless Kerensky comes out of a time warp your looking a tiny remnant of the Exodus forces invading the InnerSphere.

FASAnomics + Offscreen Plot Dark Matter would probably solve that problem. Where did the First Order get all its wonderful toys, in a much smaller time frame then we're giving the hypothetical SLDF of 3050? How does COBRA stay in business when GI Joe keeps blowing up all its bases and vehicles? (Even M.A.R.S. can't build 'em that fast...) How did the Principality of Zeon amass such a large fleet of Mobile Suits and warships with only a handful of cylinder colonies? Headaches only come from asking such questions ;)

How big do you think they would be by 3050?

Again, as big as the plot needs them to be. 

What would their cause for war be?

What it was from the beginning, most likely. I doubt Kerensky's endgame was "take my ball and go home and never return" -- I can't think he sold a millions-strong army and all their dependents on "hey, let's exile ourselves forever, whaddya say?" The idea was always that they would be back some day to straighten everything out and reform the Star League, IIRC

If surrender is offered then the Houses know your coming and your likely going to have less surprise on your side.

The houses might be awed enough by the Return of the SLDF as the SLDF to be given a little pause. (The Clans they saw as some sort of bumpy-forehead-alien invasion until it was too late to change tack). They knew what the SLDF was capable of (both technologically and in terms of pure "gloves-off" fighting) and could have done some back of the envelope calculations that would have indicated that fighting might be a bad idea.

From the SLDF's perspective, offering surrender at first doesn't really cost them anything. If they get at least some of the Houses on board, then they've already regathered some of the League with no shots being fired. If they get all the Houses to drop their claims to the First Lord title, even better. and invasion with warning or without warning probably would have, in the SLDF's perspective, resulted in much the same in terms of casualties. They probably would have seen it as Reunification War II: Electric Boogaloo. IIRC, they did offer the Periphery a chance to join the League willingly, and when they were told to get bent, that's when they unleashed the full asskickery of the SLDF upon them. 

Also, the SLDF does have a previous history with ComStar, who is waiting for their return. They don't have to go to the LC or DC border and beam a message, telegraphing their invasion corridor to everyone. They could have sent a Jamie Wolf-analogue with verifiable credentials to Terra and tried to persuade the First Circuit to broadcast the surrender offer across all HPGs, keeping the Inner Sphere guessing just from which direction the invasion would come if the offer was rejected or dismissed as a crank.

[Sartris]

 What it was from the beginning, most likely. I doubt Kerensky's endgame was "take my ball and go home and never return" -- I can't think he sold a millions-strong army and all their dependents on "hey, let's exile ourselves forever, whaddya say?" The idea was always that they would be back some day to straighten everything out and reform the Star League, IIRC

furthermore, spending 200 years on those barely marginal planets would probably generate an ingrained culture of pining for the fjords home. that's also more than enough time to boilerplate whatever historical narrative they wanted about birthright or revenge or a messiah mentality or however it was that they wanted to justify trying to run an inside-out Cameron style reunification.

[SteelRaven]

SLDF in Exile wouldn't be using Zell or competing with itself for 'honor' thus not limiting itself but they would still be a smaller force with fewer resources. There would be few more sympathetic to there cause in the IS as we are talking about the SLDF of legend vs alien invaders (Eridani Light Horse) but it would mostly stay the same. Com Star sees themselves as the true inheritors of the Terran Hegemony, not the traitors who abandoned Terra to the barbaric House Lords. The Great Houses would still not recognize the SLDF to have any authority over their own claims. Real qestion would be: why would the SLDF even invade if they are not being lead by a 'might is right' fanatical crusader culture? Even the Wardens among the Clans believed they should wait until the Inner Sphere was under a more universal threat (see: ComStar/WoB and the Jihad) then they would be seen more as saviors than invaders.

If the SLDF in Exile waited till Operation Scorpion part II, Atomic Boogaloo, it would more or less play out as i the main timeline only with the SLDF instead of Devlin Stone a few years earlier. So Empire in Flames post Succession Wars.           

[Wendelsnatch]

It would not suprise me if the could peacefully roll into the FRR, who may invite the military muscle.  Make an example of the DC with a decapitation strike and let it Balkanize without a Kurita at the helm.  This would also serve as a message to others.  The CC is in no position to object and the FWL had recent civil wars.  The biggest problem would be the FedCom.  Even then 300 warships and 400 regiments of SLDF troops, and the nagging question of “is this just the first wave” may be enough to solidify gains and become the power broker but not outright ruler of the inner sphere

[General308]

In the end supply lines would have stalled them out.

[Church14]

In the end supply lines would have stalled them out.

Pre-Amaris, sure.

The SLDF that left the inner sphere left with all the documentation and experience to run a doctrine where they live off the land. If that knowledge was effectively passed on, they would have rolled over defenders, dispossessed them, and kept going.

Except instead of 4 clans doing their attacks in waves, it would’ve been more clans and they would not have been taking breaks nor ever agreed to Tukayyid

[Syzyx]

So I know this is actually an interesting question, and one that so many BattleTech GMs have probably toyed with so many different ways. I know I have. But the way this thread has been presented makes me imagine the SLDF/Comstar alliance broadcasting the first verse or two of Digital Underground's The Humpty Dance as the opener for their surrender call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnYE3yBQpM

I now return you to your regularly scheduled serious discussion.

[SteelRaven]

But what would be their end goal? Terra? Like that means anything to anyone but ComStar?

[Pat Payne]

But what would be their end goal? Terra? Like that means anything to anyone but ComStar?

The only reason it seemingly means so little to the great Houses is everyone's scared spitless of trying to make a move against Terra and provoking a ruinous interdiction (or much, much worse) of their realm, and there's the concern that the defenses of terra would make it a hard nut to crack without possibly unacceptable losses. But Terra would be the end goal and grand prize for any of the Successor States, as that was the seat of power of the Star League and taking Terra is a pretty clear declaration that the brass ring has been grabbed and we have a new First Lord.

Also, what if they also wanted to reform the Hegemony to bring back the lost sixth Great House? Terra is only the end destination, not the be-all-end-all of their program. They might try to reform House Cameron or otherwise make a power base to tell the rest of the Inner Sphere "we're here. We're not leaving. Try us, if you dare."

[HyperionCormyr]

It would not suprise me if the could peacefully roll into the FRR, who may invite the military muscle.  Make an example of the DC with a decapitation strike and let it Balkanize without a Kurita at the helm.  This would also serve as a message to others.  The CC is in no position to object and the FWL had recent civil wars.  The biggest problem would be the FedCom.  Even then 300 warships and 400 regiments of SLDF troops, and the nagging question of “is this just the first wave” may be enough to solidify gains and become the power broker but not outright ruler of the inner sphere

Actually, the rise of the FedCom might have worked out for the Return of the SDLF- you've got the cornerstone of the new SL in the new Supernation plus the Steiner/Davion history with the original SL (and the Camerons).

Honestly, IMO, the only problems with the return come from the Combine, the Confederation and SOME of the Periphery states. The FRR and FWL would pretty quickly throw in for various reasons but Theodore Kurita would try to put forward the Kurita claim to First Lord and not take "no" for an answer. Liao obviously has the Napoleon Complex issue and the PS have the bad history they aren't likely to forget.

[dgorsman]

Theodore might be willing to settle for a strategic stalemate while he comes up with a plan for success in the longer term.  Takashi on the other hand... yeah, no room for compromise there.

[Maingunnery]

I don't think that the SLDF would have any happy-joy-joy feelings about the Houses, so they will want to take them out.
1. Reactivate several staging grounds in the deep periphery and move mobile factories there (surrounding the IS).
2. Hit all the Houses at the same time and confiscate any encountered JS.
3. Force a surrender from each member of the ruling families or kill them.
4. Take over Terra, dispose of ComStar.
5. Divide the houses into smaller areas with appointed administrators and representatives.
6. Reinstate the Star League.

[Empyrus]

Had the SLDF returned as the SLDF, i think it would have gained possibly even a large support within the Spheroids, if not the Great Houses. I mean, by 3050s, the SL era was an utopia, a legend, something yearn for. A force that would truly promise to bring it back, after centuries of war? There would have been a lot of people ready to join them.
The Clans were alien invaders, no matter their legacy.

[Wendelsnatch]

Actually, the rise of the FedCom might have worked out for the Return of the SDLF- you've got the cornerstone of the new SL in the new Supernation plus the Steiner/Davion history with the original SL (and the Camerons).

Honestly, IMO, the only problems with the return come from the Combine, the Confederation and SOME of the Periphery states. The FRR and FWL would pretty quickly throw in for various reasons but Theodore Kurita would try to put forward the Kurita claim to First Lord and not take "no" for an answer. Liao obviously has the Napoleon Complex issue and the PS have the bad history they aren't likely to forget.

The FedCom siding with the SLDF would seal the deal, but the ambition of Hanse may be too great to not start shooting.  Even here there are areas that the SLDF could leverage such as Skye nationalism, or even leveraging Tikonov Union worlds would be better off in the SLDF than FedCom.

The DC would be the obvious choice for an example, and I don’t think Takashi would bend or surrender.  I could see Theo escaping the fall of Luthien, and be one of several factions in former DC territory, and at that point sue for peace with the SLDF.  The CC at this point is essentially inconsequential along with the periphery powers.

Honestly, ComStar may be the bigger problem

[Daryk]

From that perspective, I'd say Waterly is the bigger problem, not ComStar per se.

[dgorsman]

One thought that occurs, is the SLDF would have maintained a robust special forces and intelligence force.  Inner Sphere leaders would have found messages delivered directly to them, rather bluntly making the point about the returning SLDF not messing around.   Command structures would be decapitated or cut off, through crippling critical HPG transmitters (electronically or physically).  Responses would be much weaker and less coordinated.

The Dragoons, if sent, might rally populations rather than leaders, and again realms rather than the invaders.  Not so much the Terran Corridor though.  That may prove to be a very tough slog for occupation.

[Daryk]

Did the SLIC go with the SLDF in force, though?  I'd have thought the bulk of them would have stayed behind.

[Pat Payne]

The FedCom siding with the SLDF would seal the deal, but the ambition of Hanse may be too great to not start shooting.

As healthy an ego as Hanse has, and as much of a magnificent bastard as he is, he's intelligent enough to not get that far in over his head. There's a difference between taking audacious risks and poking an angry bear when you're not sufficiently armed to make good the annoyance. 

Even here there are areas that the SLDF could leverage such as Skye nationalism, or even leveraging Tikonov Union worlds would be better off in the SLDF than FedCom.

I still think the endgame though of a returned SLDF would be partly revanchist, taking back, by force if need be, the worlds of the Hegemony taken by the Great Houses. That could partly be done by leveraging discontent (certainly with Skye seccessionism, since the Lestrade family's former power base was on Summer which was a Hegemony world, and they might see a returned SLDF with designs on a reformed Hegemony as a path to their return to prominence after Aldo got them ejected from their titles and landhold), true, but some of those worlds (such as Dieron) would put up a fight as they have long been integrated into the power structures of their realms.

The DC would be the obvious choice for an example, and I don’t think Takashi would bend or surrender.  I could see Theo escaping the fall of Luthien, and be one of several factions in former DC territory, and at that point sue for peace with the SLDF.

I wouldn't be too sure it would have to come quite to that. The direct historical analogue to the Combine did end up surrendering when it became quite clear that they weren't going to get their final glorious battle but were either going to be nuked into oblivion by one opponent or turned into a Communist satrapy by the other in a out and out curb-stomp. Before that happened, everyone was sure that it would be a "to the last drop of blood" situation. It seemed to the Emperor that the honor of his generals was not worth a mountain of his subjects' corpses and the absolute devastation of his realm.

Likewise, Takashi might just be pragmatic enough to know that national suicide is not going to end well. At best, the Dragon bides its time till the Yellow Bird relaxes its guard and they rise up and overthrow the Star League pretenders and regain their stolen worlds. At worst, well, at least The Dragon denied the final victory over them to the Federated Suns...

  The CC at this point is essentially inconsequential along with the periphery powers.

Historical memory runs deep. I would not be surprised if the SLDF would have the worst time in the Magistracy, Concordat and Alliance precisely because the Tauriand, Canopians and Outworlders would be screaming "Never Again!" in rage from the rooftops, remembering both the Reunification War and Kerensky's Periphery Campaign. Especially in the Concordat, I could see a reasonable risk of a "we will die as free men rather than live as Star League subjects, and the SLDF can have New Vandenburg over our cold corpses" sort of deal. The worst the Combine had to deal with as regards the SLDF was the hammer coming down a few times when the SLDF forcibly pulled the Combine and Suns off one another as well as the Hegemony being dicks and denying them all the cool technological toys. The Periphery can point instead to the atrocities of Amos Forlough. 

Honestly, ComStar may be the bigger problem

Maybe, but they're both pragmatic and devious. Being that they're the old SL Ministry of Communications, they might just petition the League revived to let them continue on just as they are, and frame it as some sort of prophecy of Blake. Better to be the Man Behind The Man than risk all your toys being broken or taken away by force. And ComStar couldn't even try their usual trick of disabling the HPGs, knowing that nobody outside ComStar would know how to repair or use them -- the SLDF did have HPG technicians who could actually maintain and operate HPGs. So that gives them a bit of leverage over ComStar. "So, you removed the J-32/X Doowhackie from the transmitter? Not a problem. We have a crate of 'em on the ship. Nice try though, Toga Party..."

[Daryk]

Toga Party is an excellent call sign for the robes...  ;D

[R.Tempest]

 I think much will depend on whether Wolf's Dragoons (or an equivalent) were sent on ahead. Like them or not, they have had a major impact on the politics of the Inner Sphere and their absence would change things significantly.
 There would be a stronger FWL because it's doubtful that Anton Marik would have revolted. Indeed they may have been strong enough not to have joined the Kapteyn Concord. That would have affected the outcome of the 4th Succession War a bit (the League really didn't do that much). It also would have removed the friction between Jaime Wolf and Takashi Kurita, probably preventing the `Death to Mercenaries' policy in the Combine. Also, with the DCMS regiments that were effectively destroyed on Misery the Combine might have taken more worlds in the Draconis March. Although those were the Ryuken regiments and they would never have been formed. There would have been one less battle for Hesperus and the center of the mercenary trade would still be Galatea. No Dragoons on Outreach means no prototype SLDF/Clan tech available in miniscule amounts by the time of the invasion.

[monbvol]

I actually toyed with this concept once for an AToW RPG campaign.

I ditched the Clan structure and kept a more Star League in Exile scheme where they fought a bit smarter but still had some of the honor hang ups to allow for duels to make sure the Inner Sphere still had a fighting edge.

Even went so far to re-do the omnimechs so that each served a clearer purpose and put on configs that at least mirrored a lot of the old classics and other famous Star League mechs.  I think I still have them around somewhere.

If I could remember some of the details a bit better I'd probably act on the urge I've been having lately to develop this into a fanfic.

[SteelRaven]

There would be a stronger FWL because it's doubtful that Anton Marik would have revolted.

What? Even if there wasn't a Wolf's Dragoons, there are other mercenary units. The main players would have stayed the same, perhaps the only change would be how many victories Anton would actually achieve and who would kill him in the end.

[Question]

I think much will depend on whether Wolf's Dragoons (or an equivalent) were sent on ahead. Like them or not, they have had a major impact on the politics of the Inner Sphere and their absence would change things significantly.
 There would be a stronger FWL because it's doubtful that Anton Marik would have revolted. Indeed they may have been strong enough not to have joined the Kapteyn Concord. That would have affected the outcome of the 4th Succession War a bit (the League really didn't do that much). It also would have removed the friction between Jaime Wolf and Takashi Kurita, probably preventing the `Death to Mercenaries' policy in the Combine. Also, with the DCMS regiments that were effectively destroyed on Misery the Combine might have taken more worlds in the Draconis March. Although those were the Ryuken regiments and they would never have been formed. There would have been one less battle for Hesperus and the center of the mercenary trade would still be Galatea. No Dragoons on Outreach means no prototype SLDF/Clan tech available in miniscule amounts by the time of the invasion.

Well wolf's dragoons still gets sent to gather intelligence, but they are staffed by spies rather than random freeborn and theres no reason for them to switch sides when the invasion occurs.

I see the fedcom forming as a huge incentive for the SLDF to invade now while the IS is still divided, an IS united by the fedcom at some point in the future would be a lot less disinclined to accept the return of the SLDF and would have the full resources of the IS to fight back, and might possibly have rediscovered warship tech at some point in the future. So it would have been in the interest of the SLDF to return while the IS was still divided.

[RifleMech]

If the SLDF came back anouncing they were taking over, I think the entire IS and Periphery would gather together to stop them, and they'd do it sooner.

Firstly there's no surprise. There'd be no confusion over batchalls or wondering who they were or what they wanted.  It's the SLDF. So they have advanced tech. The Royals did anyway. Shoot them.

Secondly, no one is going to want to be forced to join a new star league. None of the IS Houses were forced to join originally. I can't see them agreeing to be forced to now. Plus I can't see the FC wanting to give up gains they'd made or the FRR giving up their new independence. I also can't see the Periphery States welcoming the SLDF back and wanting to join the SL again. They didn't want to the first to begin with and wanted out of the first one. They're not going to want to be a part of second. And then there's Comstar.

They're meant to be the saviors of the IS. Not the SLDF. They ran away and don't have any right to impose their authority now! They'd not only mobilize the entire ComGuard against the returning SLDF, they'd start producing supplies and upgrade kits for the houses, and brokering deals between the other houses for supplies and troops. They'd also be getting those warships out of mothballs.

Since its the SLDF there's going to be more resistance towards their occupation. The Clans had different sensibilities about that. I also can't see them being in a hurry to use WMDs. Some yes, but not the majority, and the results would be the same as they were for the Clans. A pissed off Inner Sphere. And if Wolf's Dragoons didn't change sides and started some behind the lines raiding, they'd be hunted down. That is if they didn't self destruct. They're still a product of both the IS and SLDF/Clans. They're their own group and trying to be one or the other would break them.

[I am Belch II]

I think some of the Tactics on the ground would of been different becuase of the bidding that the Clan did. We are going to attack you with this, so be ready or die. Some of the backwards tactics of Zelbringing  (sorry spelling) the SLDF wouldn't of used.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

An SLDF-with-Clantech invasion would have something else going for it- without the Clans' caste system they'd treat civilians better and might even be willing to share some of their non-military technology to improve planets they conquered.  That would present a huge lure to local governments.

[SteelRaven]

Still think the biggest difference would be the SLDF wouldn't invade. All the post here are SLDF=Clans only without Zell and less social hang ups.