Clans against and inner sphere lance, what would you bid?

[Liam's Ghost]

EDIT: Because I'm a grumpy old man, I've shut this whole idea down. I'm not accepting bids anymore.

Backstory: It's 3001, the ice hellions invaded the inner sphere solo. The defenders of Somerset have acted in a manner that the clans would describe as shameful, the inner sphere would describe as unconventional, and I would describe as reasonable, but the invading commander has finally arranged a formal trial for the world.

The defenders are composed of a single medium lance: A Griffin, 2 Phoenix Hawk LAMs, and a Commando. None of these mechs or their pilots have yet seen action, so you have no idea of their competance, however they've spent the last couple weeks deliberately avoiding engagement, and they're militia.

Assume you're the Ice Hellions, what would you bid against them? At a minimum, your bid must include one Gargoyle (you choose the configuration) piloted by Star Colonel Luke Cage.

On saturday night, the lowest bid (with the exception of any that I judge as deliberately throwing things for the hellions) will be selected to resolve the engagement the following night. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Sooo... if the final bid must include a full on assault omnimech, I'd imagine the cutdown would probably be just Star Colonel Cage and his Gargoyle.

The winning bid might be something along the lines of only using a single ER PPC for weaponry.

I suppose that'd be my own bid, but it'd be provisional based on some assumptions that may or may not be correct:

this battle is said to be in 3001 as part of a Ice Hellion invasion... I'm presuming that this is still early enough into the invasion that noone knows what Clan stuff can even do, much less how to defeat it.  I'm kind of presuming this trial is even the closing stage of the very first Clan vs Inner Sphere planetary conquest ever attempted.  If that's all true, then absolutely.  One experienced trueborn piloting gargoyle with everything but a single ER PPC held behind its back is plenty to win that fight.  I'd expect that bid could even be substantially underbid.

[Saint]

I'd go with a Gargoyle A, thinking like a Clanner one Assault mech is nearly a bit much. 8)

As a counter bid I'll go with firing Large Pulse and Med Pulse,

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As a counter bid I'll go with firing Large Pulse and Med Pulse,

Now see, at this level of granularity we'll inevitably start to quibble about how bidding even works.  I'd question that a Large Pulse + Medium Pulse is even underbidding a single ER PPC.  A) it's two weapons to one.  B) It's 17 damage to 15.  C) yeah it's shorter range, but it has -2 to hit.    C makes it a wash in my mind, and A+B both make the 1 ER PPC sound like an undercut to Large Pulse + Medium Pulse :)

Of course, I think this would be a much more interesting bidding war if we didn't have the requirement for including a Gargoyle.

[Liam's Ghost]

So... you guys really think a gargoyle using only one or two of its weapons is somehow a reasonable means of defeating three medium and one light battlemech?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So... you guys really think a gargoyle using only one or two of its weapons is somehow a reasonable means of defeating three medium and one light battlemech?

Yes.  Again, based off the assumptions I said upthread.  If there are surprises you haven't said (the IS pilots are all super elite, somehow still have LosTech in 3001, IS side isn't going to stand and fight, etc) then that could change things.. but objectively looking at a stand up fight?  Yep.  I'd take that bet.  A 15 point hit from an ER PPC is going internal on every mech in almost every location.  And if these are the riff raff they sound like, they won't fanatically fight to the end.  From a roleplaying perspective, I'd expect the IS side to surrender or flee after about 3-4 hits from that God Gun in this context.

  And looking at it from an appropriately Clanlike standard of overconfidence, I think a Gargoyle with a single ER PPC piloted by a presumably highly skilled Trueborn?  It's overkill even at that.

I guess we need to know:  Did the IS side actually agree to a final Trial (with the usual caveats about probable IS shenanigans), or is this a case of the Clanners having found the last pocket of IS resistance and we're discussing the bid for a force to go in without honor to wipe them out?  Is Star Colonel Cage a 3/4 pilot or something more "appropriate" to his having achieved such a high status?

[Valkerie]

I don't pretend to fully understand Clan bidding, but wouldn't the primary configuration be suitable for this?  2 LB 5-Xs, 2 SRM 6, and one small laser.  Not the most overpowering load-out ever for an assault Mech.  I would still find it a challenge to take out four Mechs with that (especially the way my dice have been lately  :-\ )  Or is the idea to be terrifically arrogant and presumptuous? 

[Liam's Ghost]

Yes.  Again, based off the assumptions I said upthread.  If there are surprises you haven't said (the IS pilots are all super elite, somehow still have LosTech in 3001, IS side isn't going to stand and fight, etc) then that could change things.. but objectively looking at a stand up fight?  Yep.  I'd take that bet.  A 15 point hit from an ER PPC is going internal on every mech in almost every location.  And if these are the riff raff they sound like, they won't fanatically fight to the end.  From a roleplaying perspective, I'd expect the IS side to surrender or flee after about 3-4 hits from that God Gun in this context.

  And looking at it from an appropriately Clanlike standard of overconfidence, I think a Gargoyle with a single ER PPC piloted by a presumably highly skilled Trueborn?  It's overkill even at that.

Expecting the inner sphere forces to flee, with virtually no prior experience against them, doesn't sound remotely like a Clan attitude. As you sussed out, this is one of the first battles of the invasion. And assuming off the bat that your enemies will just flee after a display of power is a HORRIBLE strategy in any situation.

And, being an Ice Hellion, being under any assumption that the smaller enemy mechs won't swarm your larger mech (being standard Ice Hellion tactics) is downright unreasonable for a officer who gained his rank by out killing his opponents and competitors.

Also, it's a bad idea in general. A Gargoyle with just one PPC is simply not as impressive as you seem to make it out to be.

I mean, I'm not saying that I won't use it, but it sounds an awful lot like handing the fight to the Inner Sphere.

I guess we need to know:  Did the IS side actually agree to a final Trial (with the usual caveats about probable IS shenanigans), or is this a case of the Clanners having found the last pocket of IS resistance and we're discussing the bid for a force to go in without honor to wipe them out?  Is Star Colonel Cage a 3/4 pilot or something more "appropriate" to his having achieved such a high status?

As I said upthread, it's a formal trial against a battlemech force that the Ice Hellions have yet to engage. To this point they've only fought orbital forces and ground based conventional units, and they know only that these mechs are militia and training forces.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

There's the perspective of the gamer from outside the BTU looking in, and there's the perspective of the characters inside the BTU.

From the perspective of the real life player:  Yeah, I'd expect to win with a single ER PPC (esp if I have better than 3/4 pilot) vs introtech Griffin, Commando, and 2x P-Hawk LAMs.  They don't have enough firepower to bring down an assault mech chassis by the time they're decimated.  We know that IS forces were dumbfounded by the Clans' superior tech and cut and run all the frikkin' time in the early REVIVAL waves.  As an objective player outside the BTU, yeah I'd expect the IS side to either "roleplay" that "WHAT IN HELL IS GOING ON" factor, or at least recognize the inevitable and throw in the towel long before the last mech has to be killed.  The challenge is in whether the LAMs have to be destroyed of if it's still a win if they successfully flee the battle.  Sufficiently confident that I'd feel that I'd have a serious chance of being underbid with even that bid.

From the perspective of an Ice Hellion officer trying to win the honor of leading the Trial: I'm having a hard time even seeing why the Gladiator has to be part of the bid.  I'd be looking at much smaller much faster stuff.  Especially on general principle as a Ice Hellion.  Both in-character and as a player of the game, I'd be looking at something like a Ryoken instead to mop them all up.  MAYBE flesh the force out to avoid the "all eggs in one basket" syndrome with an obnoxious light omnimech or two.  Not personally familiar enough with the Ice Hellions to know what's their favored flavor of lights, but I'm sure any of them would do.

But again, going back to out-of-game knowledge of IS forces that the Clanners wouldn't necessarily have at this very early stage of their invasion.. a Medium Omni and two light Omnis is MASSIVE overkill against a medium introtech lance.  I just grant that the Clanners may not realize it yet by this very early point.

EDIT: I suppose yet another point that'd factor into the bid is the terms of the trial.  Is this Trial becoming the proxy for the entire campaign to conquer the planet, or is it just the first battle of a more or less conventional-sounding planetary invasion campaign that happens to have mechs on both sides?  If the Clan side is on its honor to abandon the effort to take the planet if it loses the Trial, ok I can see maybe bidding more than just one ER PPC as insurance against an unlucky TAC.

[monbvol]

Some important context for the IS forces:

The conventional vehicle and infantry forces of the militia have clashed with the Ice Hellion forces on planet and there are survivor battlerom footage for these mech forces to reference and these vehicle forces even managed to down a some Ice Hellion mechs.

And the Griffen can take an ER PPC hit to any of it's torsos or the legs without it going internal.

Any further information would be outside the Ice Hellion's knowledge.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If the bid HAS to include a Gargoyle, then I'm sticking to what I said.  Call it Config A with a final bid of powering down weapons other than one ER PPC.  If an unlucky TAC or other freakish event happens, fall back to the bid prior of the full power config and smash the Sphereoids with a bit less honor than otherwise.

I can't imagine why a handicapped Gargoyle is apparently below the Cutdown.  There has to be something more in surprise that isn't being said- no way can 4 introtech med/light mechs with 4/5 skills expect to face off against an expected Clan force of a Gargoyle plus more.  But in picking a force without knowing of such a surprising wrinkle, I said what I'd do.  Fall back to powering up all the guns if something obscene begins happening.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . I think the bids so far are kind of ridiculous.

Using Tukayyid SB for their bidding formula I would consider the 2 LAMs as normal meds . . . which means the IS bid is 90 points (25+25+25+15).  Just a Gargoyle is probably below the cut down IMO, let alone a single weapon . . . those mechs have roughly the same speed if not more and I would think could swarm the Gargoyle under if the maps are right. A Clan assault is 90 points on that however and a Light is 25 points so . . .

Gargoyle D, Star Colonel Luke Cage
Elemental Poinst (Laser)

If you wish to avoid BA in the bid (which were never given points in Tukayyid, 10 seems to work when tested) then the following would be my suggestion-

Gargoyle Prime, Star Colonel Luke Cage
Mist Lynx B or C, Mechwarrior Regular Pilot

The Gargoyle's weaponry sort of drops to the level of a heavy to give the balance, and the Mist Lynx fits the Hellion's speed lust.  If you are willing to consider they may use SLDF left overs, the Locust 1Vb would also fit the Hellion's speedy tendencies and would be a lower bid point value than the Mist Lynx by 5.

And yeah, I agree with TDC the RP aspect when defenders try to call it quits and 'ransom' their mechs would get interesting.

[massey]

At a minimum, your bid must include one Gargoyle (you choose the configuration) piloted by Star Colonel Luke Cage.

...




Sweet Christmas, he doesn't even need a battlemech.

[Natasha Kerensky]

How many bombs can those P-Hawks drop before converting...?

[massey]

My bid would be a Gargoyle/Man O'War (configuration doesn't matter), one Dasher D, and a Fenris Prime.  The Man O'War will be shut down and will not engage in the fight at all.

[Daryk]

The LAMs complicate things (as usual).  Whatever the clan takes, it should have ALL the pulse lasers.

[Boomer8]

I bid three Fire Moths, all using the B loadout. Next bid step: 2 of them. And the required Gargoyle, which will reach the edge of the battlefield, and simply wait until needed.

Side note: BV for 3 fire moths is 2766, 2 is 1844. Enemy Lance comes in at 5697 (as best I can tell using Sarna)

[Mattlov]

As a Bloodnamed Star Colonel leading an invading frontline Cluster, I would expect our Clanner to be at WORST a 2/3 pilot, probably better.

Bidding the Star Colonel in a Gargoyle A is not an unreasonable bid.  The Inner Sphere forces have have never seen action, they should be 4/5 pilots AT BEST.  They will never hit the Star Colonel at long range, or if they jump.  The mobility of a LAM is pointless if you can't hit the broadside of a barn from inside of said barn.

At no point will the IS forces be able to engage the SC when he can't engage them back.  The Commando is going to die before it gets a second salvo fired, if it even gets the first one off.
The LAMs can draw out the engagement, but they still have a single large laser to the Gargoyle, which will always have a better range bracket.
The Griffin can stand back and try to indirect LRM fire from LAM spotters, but he isn't going to hit much if the SC stays at range.

Out side of bumrushing him and trying to physical him to death, I can't see this lance defeating the Star Colonel alone.

[Scotty]

Yeah . . . I think the bids so far are kind of ridiculous.

Using Tukayyid SB for their bidding formula I would consider the 2 LAMs as normal meds . . . which means the IS bid is 90 points (25+25+25+15).  Just a Gargoyle is probably below the cut down IMO, let alone a single weapon . . . those mechs have roughly the same speed if not more and I would think could swarm the Gargoyle under if the maps are right. A Clan assault is 90 points on that however and a Light is 25 points so . .

You're deliberately angling for an even fight?  Miserable surat!  Have some confidence in your own skill.

My own bid would be the Gargoyle with a single LB-10X and a Streak-6 (and enough ammo to use them both every turn for at least three minutes).

Seriously, I agree with TDC.  Forcing the inclusion of a Clan Assault is making this a really difficult bid.  I would expect that a 2/3 Clan bloodnamed Star Colonel would wipe the floor with a typical IS garrison Lance.  Gargoyle handicap or no handicap.

Unless the IS Lance is rocking pilots better than 3/4 (and we have absolutely zero reason to believe that) the Clan pilot is going to have a damage output significantly higher than the entire enemy lance.  A Commando is too slow and too underarmored to survive anything more than cursory attention.  The Griffin is the only real challenge in the composition, because Phoenix Hawk LAMs can best be described using "tissue paper" as a design goal to beat.

Now, all that said, I recognize the Crescent Hawks when I see them, and suspect that these IS pilots are in fact better than 3/4.  That doesn't actually change my bid, though, because that's what I'd bid based on the Clan commander's information.

[Liam's Ghost]

Few things I want to be clear about:

1) The skills of the inner sphere pilots are being withheld purely because the clan officer has no way of knowing them. That doesn't mean they aren't secretly hyper elite crack fiend pilots, simply that if they were, that wouldn't be why I'm hiding their skill.  :)

2) The Crescent Hawks don't exist in 3001 (at least I don't think they exist yet),  so no, it's not them.

3) The Ice Hellion Star Colonel has taken the frustration of this campaign personally, which is why he has to be included. One way or another, he demands to be there. I've been tight lipped on his specific abilities because from a realistic standpoint it would be difficult for him to express his skill in numbers, but he is an officer who earned his command in proper clan fashion, so he is very good at killing.

4) I will never stop chuckling at the repeated use of the term "A clan assault" when that assault mech in question is the Gargoyle, a mech where the only affect of it being an assault mech was to make it worse than it would have been if it were a heavy mech.
 
5) The current lowest bid, according to my judgment of the suggestions, stands at the Star Colonel's Gargoyle, outfitted in the A configuration, with a further stipulation of utilizing only a single PPC. Because the bidding got so granular, we will consider the option of using additional weapons as the "next lowest bid", thus if things go poorly, he will be allowed to use additional weapons at a small loss of honor. Even though I consider it a bad idea, It was still a legitimate bid with no intent to throw the match.

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

[Liam's Ghost]

...




Sweet Christmas, he doesn't even need a battlemech.

My first thought for his name was Nicholas.  ;D

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

I would, if we didn't have to use the Gargoyle. 

I get that the Star Colonel wants to be personally involved.  Any reason he can't suit up in a smaller ride just for this one Trial so that a more "sensible" bid can be made?

[Scotty]

5) The current lowest bid, according to my judgment of the suggestions, stands at the Star Colonel's Gargoyle, outfitted in the A configuration, with a further stipulation of utilizing only a single PPC. Because the bidding got so granular, we will consider the option of using additional weapons as the "next lowest bid", thus if things go poorly, he will be allowed to use additional weapons at a small loss of honor. Even though I consider it a bad idea, It was still a legitimate bid with no intent to throw the match.

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

A Clan ER PPC is 412 BV.  An LB-10X with two tons of ammo and a Streak SRM-6 with one ton of ammo is just barely north of 300 BV.  ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

A Clan ER PPC is 412 BV.  An LB-10X with two tons of ammo and a Streak SRM-6 with one ton of ammo is just barely north of 300 BV.  ;)

I honestly considered that, but decided the streak launcher and LBX would consistently hit harder, and the LBX would have additional utility against land air mechs that would make that configuration a superior choice over a PPC.

Besides, attaching numerical values derived from complex formula to battlefield weapons is scientist caste nonsense. We warriors have no need for lower caste calculation!

I get that the Star Colonel wants to be personally involved.  Any reason he can't suit up in a smaller ride just for this one Trial so that a more "sensible" bid can be made?

Because he earned this Gargoyle, dagnabit!

Also you'd probably bid down to like a Mad Dog who didn't use his pulse lasers and two elementals. :P

(cartoon reference)

[Scotty]

I honestly considered that, but decided the streak launcher and LBX would consistently hit harder, and the LBX would have additional utility against land air mechs that would make that configuration a superior choice over a PPC.

A skilled warrior chooses his weapons for the task at hand! :P

I'd rather bid "down" to a mid-level Medium against the arranged group.  Same principle, still a "lower" bid.

But at that point I'm quibbling, which doesn't seem to be the point.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . honestly he should be able to walk up any mechwarrior in his cluster, tap them on the shoulder and say, 'Dude, I am taking your ride.'

If the mechwarrior in question does not respond with 'AFF!' quickly enough the Star Colonel would pound him flat.

One of the other things missing in that case is knowing the equipment level of the unit- b/c if he honestly wants to come out covered in glory he is going to go looking for a SLDF leftover medium.  Ideally something fast so . . . royal Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Hawk or a Starslayer.

[Charistoph]

Equip the Gargoyle with an LB 5-X and 5 tons of ammo in the torso.  Equip two battlefists, and let the rest of the weight be empty.

Let the dezgra know they are an offense.

[massey]

Because he earned this Gargoyle, dagnabit!

Then he loses the bid.  He loses to someone willing to go down to a smaller mech. That’s how bidding works.

[Liam's Ghost]

Then he loses the bid.  He loses to someone willing to go down to a smaller mech. That’s how bidding works.

He's the commanding officer, the bid only happens as his prerogative, and he's exercising his authority.

He is, however, willing to answer a challenge. Only one though. His subordinates will have to bid among themselves for the right to face him.

(Gargoyle A, commander's skill is 0/1. The cluster has access to every type of front or second line clan mech built before 2980, as well as elementals, and has two additional warriors of 1/2 skill, ten of 2/3 skill, and the rest are standard 3/4 skill.).

[Colt Ward]

0/1?  Better than Justin, Kai, Phelan, Natasha, etc?