Clans against and inner sphere lance, what would you bid?

[Liam's Ghost]

0/1?  Better than Justin, Kai, Phelan, Natasha, etc?

But comparable to Star Captain Lefar of the Falcon Guards (source: Battle of Twycross scenario pack).

If we really want to bicker over every single thing, I'd point out that there's more to being a legendary warrior than just shooting or piloting good. Justin, Kai, Phelan, and Natasha were also exceptional at how they used those skills (to the extent the author was able to portray that).

So anybody want to bid for a refusal or not? By a unique turn of events I'm in considerable pain, which means resolving this will be held off for another weak.

[Colt Ward]

Its your game, its probably why they quit giving out skills for book characters to keep them from from being unbalanced.

[Liam's Ghost]

Its your game, its probably why they quit giving out skills for book characters to keep them from from being unbalanced.

Yes, by all means, let's argue over this some more.

[Colt Ward]

Sorry, I was not trying to argue- was meant to step back from that point.

Anyway, I think the ERPPC is the bid.

[Liam's Ghost]

Sorry, I was not trying to argue- was meant to step back from that point.

Anyway, I think the ERPPC is the bid.

I opened a second option to bid for a trial of refusal against the commander for his heavy handed behavior. Or at least that was my intention.

[Scotty]

I believe it'd be an informal Trial of Grievance, no?  Not that there's a significant enough difference to change the trial itself.

And also keeping in mind that the results of said trial, at least in the traditionally "letter not intent" Clan rules interpretation fashion, would merely replace the "must be part of the bid" part of the conditions, it wouldn't actually be necessarily to use that exact configuration to conduct the Trial itself.

In light of that, I would bid a Stormcrow B against the full capabilities of a Gargoyle in single combat.

[Liam's Ghost]

I believe it'd be an informal Trial of Grievance, no?  Not that there's a significant enough difference to change the trial itself.

And also keeping in mind that the results of said trial, at least in the traditionally "letter not intent" Clan rules interpretation fashion, would merely replace the "must be part of the bid" part of the conditions, it wouldn't actually be necessarily to use that exact configuration to conduct the Trial itself.

In light of that, I would bid a Stormcrow B against the full capabilities of a Gargoyle in single combat.

Pretty much. Defeating the Star Colonel will re-open the bidding without his original stipulation.

(I honestly wish I'd thought of this in the first place. I mean, I intentionally wrote it as the Star Colonel abusing his position for his own gain, but I only thought of the trial of refusal/grievance angle today)

[Liam's Ghost]

Also, all of this bidding (and the duel that may or may not reset the bidding) is taking place across the field from the opposition, who is watching, deeply confused.

(backstory: The challenge was made and accepted between two unarmed commanders on neutral-ish ground, but the exact terms were left until each side met on the field. The defenders brought the previously defined four mechs with them and made it their bid to defend, the Ice Hellions are now sorting out who gets to attack).

[Scotty]

Also, all of this bidding (and the duel that may or may not reset the bidding) is taking place across the field from the opposition, who is watching, deeply confused.

(backstory: The challenge was made and accepted between two unarmed commanders on neutral-ish ground, but the exact terms were left until each side met on the field. The defenders brought the previously defined four mechs with them and made it their bid to defend, the Ice Hellions are now sorting out who gets to attack).

This changes things significantly.  Without any time whatsoever to repair or rearm the entire calculus changes, in such a fashion that I don't think it'd be possible for any such Grievance/Refusal victor to prevail.  Regardless of machine bid.

[Liam's Ghost]

This changes things significantly.  Without any time whatsoever to repair or rearm the entire calculus changes, in such a fashion that I don't think it'd be possible for any such Grievance/Refusal victor to prevail.  Regardless of machine bid.

If the refusal wins, the rest of the cluster is still available for the new bidding.

If the trial fails, however, the commander will proceed with his mech as is, regardless of consequences. To bow out that point would be a greater shame than losing.

[Liam's Ghost]

Also, the backstory for how we ended up at this particular point is in itself pretty complicated.

Suffice it to say, due to a Social Admiral's false bravado, a lack of understanding of either side's protocols or combat practices, and one teensy ambush, the militia won't assemble its full force in one spot for fear that the WarShip in orbit will shell them into oblivion. The Star Colonel offered to remove his warship from orbit for the trial, but the Militia's not willing to take that chance, which is why they sent such a small force, and why they didn't hand out info on what they would be using in advance.

The Star Colonel, also fearing a trap, brought most of his cluster, but true to his word, ordered the warship back to the jump point.

And here we are.

[Scotty]

If the refusal wins, the rest of the cluster is still available for the new bidding.

If the trial fails, however, the commander will proceed with his mech as is, regardless of consequences. To bow out that point would be a greater shame than losing.

I suppose there is a difference in this case between a Trial of Grievance and a Trial of Refusal, then.  I think a Trial of Refusal would be to repudiate the Star Colonel's restriction that there be a particular 'Mech that must be included in the first place.  A Trial of Grievance would be to take his place as the particular 'Mech that must be included, taken as a personal slight.

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

EDIT: Given the difference between the two options as outlined here (which could be wrong; you're the "GM", and could say otherwise), I think the average Clan Ristar would pick the Grievance and try to take the Star Colonel's place, while the smart choice (and the one that comes with correspondingly less individual glory) is to declare Refusal and let someone else take the actual fight against the IS.

[Liam's Ghost]

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

I'd argue it was broken down from the beginning.  :)

But in this case, since the commander has the right to refuse any challenge, he will state that he will only accept a trial of refusal to remove his original stipulation and allow the bidding for the battle to be redone from the beginning.

[Scotty]

I'd argue it was broken down from the beginning.  :)

But in this case, since the commander has the right to refuse any challenge, he will state that he will only accept a trial of refusal to remove his original stipulation and allow the bidding for the battle to be redone from the beginning.

Fair enough.  In that case, I think my original Refusal-bid would end up being what I started at.  A Clan veteran in a Stormcrow B.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

I think so.  And in that vein of hypothesizing about how Clan Honor works at the lower levels of granularity:

I think most people would agree the Clan version of "Might Makes Right" doesn't necessarily mean that you can lay down challenges of refusal/grievance while in combat.  If a Star Colonel orders you say hold the flank where your opportunities to pad your codex will be nonexistant, you don't get to challenge him right there in the middle of the battle.  You have to wait to lay down your challenge for after the battle is decided, wouldn't everyone agree?

I'd say "the battle" extends throughout a campaign.  Trying to conquer a planet more or less conventionally means "the battle" is going 24/7 until it's decided, even if most of that time noone is shooting.  If the campaign has thus far been fought against guerillas/partisans, and only just now the chance for a clean Trial has come, then I'd envision that it'd be normal/expected that the Star Colonel entertain bids from his sub-commanders for the honor of fighting said Trial. 

Now that being said, it's good to be the King and a Star Colonel may just not do so and insist he's leading the charge and he's gonna do it in his choice ride.  I'm presuming that the elicited bids are therefore not in any way in-character, but meta bids from us the fans on what we think is the minimum force the Star Colonel could bring to win the fight.  Since the battle is still "live", even the Clanners are considered to be expected to follow orders.  Trials of Refusal would come after the campaign is decided.  Of course if the Star Colonel begins to lose the Trial after having denied his officers any chance to bid, he'll surely fanatically fight to the death.  Dying like a true warrior in the cockpit will at least take some of the edge off of the permanent record of his mismanaging/miscalculating the Trial and costing the Clan victory.

[Liam's Ghost]

Let's go with this specific narrative:

The Star Colonel opens the trial for bidding. Some bids are issued until he himself bids down to just his Gargoyle, using a single PPC. Then he declares bidding closed on the grounds that any lower bid would risk losing the battle and weakening the clan.

(bottom line, he was determined to be the one to do it, and once he reached the point where he could bid no lower, he asserted his authority on a pretext).

He was then challenged to a trial of refusal over closing the bidding. Sensing the discontent of his warriors, he accepted, but only on the condition that those who object to his decision bid among themselves for the right to fight the trial (he figures this will result in a weak enough opponent that he could hopefully beat them and still have enough left to fight the Inner Sphere).

[Scotty]

In that specific narrative, then, it stands to reason that he'd have the full armament of his Gargoyle available to him during the pre-Trial Trial.  Since the armament of said Gargoyle is materially relevant to the bidding, what sort of configuration are we actually looking at?

(And of course, the first thing I do is make things more complex)

[massey]

But comparable to Star Captain Lefar of the Falcon Guards (source: Battle of Twycross scenario pack).

If we really want to bicker over every single thing, I'd point out that there's more to being a legendary warrior than just shooting or piloting good. Justin, Kai, Phelan, and Natasha were also exceptional at how they used those skills (to the extent the author was able to portray that).

So anybody want to bid for a refusal or not? By a unique turn of events I'm in considerable pain, which means resolving this will be held off for another weak.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what in the hell this thread is supposed to be about.  Are you expecting someone to actually play out some battle against you?

[Liam's Ghost]

The original intent was to decide the opposition the players would face in my next game session with them.

It's been expanded to include an intermediate step where the commander fights one of his subordinates before engaging the player characters. This will likely be resolved by Monbvol and me via megamek sometime during the upcoming week (or failing that, maybe I'll have the bot fight itself?).

If the challenger beats the commander, I come back here and solicit new bidding without the original stipulation.

[monbvol]

To brook no further delay I Star Captain Corran Horn(2/3) bid a Stormcrow A, Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly A, and a Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly B to face Star Colonel Luke Cage and whatever is left shall immediately proceed to engage the dishonorable Inner Sphere surrats who dare hide behind artillery and pathetic vehicle forces rather than face us with their mechs on the field of honor.

[Scotty]

To brook no further delay I Star Captain Corran Horn(2/3) bid a Stormcrow A, Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly A, and a Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly B to face Star Colonel Luke Cage and whatever is left shall immediately proceed to engage the dishonorable Inner Sphere surrats who dare hide behind artillery and pathetic vehicle forces rather than face us with their mechs on the field of honor.

I daresay I've already beaten that bid, good sir, with a single Stormcrow B (the intent was for a 1/2 pilot but a 2/3 is certainly possible).

[monbvol]

Do you intend to face the Spheroids immediately after, no chance of reload and repair with that Stormcrow B?

[Scotty]

Do you intend to face the Spheroids immediately after, no chance of reload and repair with that Stormcrow B?

The trial circumstances Liam's Ghost indicated suggest that the bidding will commence anew after the Trial, from square one, except without the guaranteed inclusion of the Gargoyle.

So no, not really.  But a Clan Warrior seriously attempting to gain some glory and personal honor isn't going to do so by inviting others to what could be a battle of single-combat.

That said, the entire reasoning behind the Stormcrow B in the first place is that the odds of incapacitating the Gargoyle in the first ten or twenty seconds - and before my own 'Mech is crippled by return fire - is highest with the UAC/20 breaching a side torso and forcing a shut-down.

If the contest is over quickly, I would include myself in the bidding still.  If the contest drags on, I would be forced (albeit grudgingly) to conclude that defeat against the IS forces would be a greater stain than prevailing against the Star Colonel would be a boon, and recuse myself from participating in the bid.

Granted, all that assumes I'm performing as a rational actor.  Knowing the Clans, that's not at all a given.

[monbvol]

That is an incredible gamble.  Especially if the Star Colonel as the defender picks ground where he'll have ample opportunity to slap the Stormcrow B before it gets in range to use the UAC/20.

Which I would consider a distinct possibility with how invested the Star Colonel is in fighting the Spheroids.

[Scotty]

That is an incredible gamble.  Especially if the Star Colonel as the defender picks ground where he'll have ample opportunity to slap the Stormcrow B before it gets in range to use the UAC/20.

Which I would consider a distinct possibility with how invested the Star Colonel is in fighting the Spheroids.

There's no ground to pick.  Liam's Ghost provided that part of the trial: it's happening at the site of the battle and in front of some very confused IS garrison units.

EDIT: I may not actually be very good at playing BattleTech that isn't Alpha Strike, but all of my bidding was done with careful consideration.

[monbvol]

I see no stipulation it has to be the exact same ground.  Ground nearby would actually be preferable.  Less chance of inviting Spheroid intervention that way.

[Daryk]

Plus, the "site" of a battle involving LAMs is by definition quite a bit larger than any other battle site.

[Scotty]

The trial needs to be conducted quickly, lest the IS troops tire and leave.  It also needs to be very close by, or else I can (and absolutely will) accuse the Star Colonel of cowardice in the face of a 'Mech two classes his junior.

I don't think most Clan officers in the early 3000s are going to have the patience to let that stand unchallenged by combat, especially one who is already incensed.and frustrated.

EDIT: the narrative that sprang unbidden to my mind is of a young Ristar Star Commander or Star Captain, chafing under a Star Colonel who has failed for weeks to bring the Spheroid dogs to heel and thinks they could do it better.  Certainly that the challenge is motivated more than merely by tactical considerations.

[monbvol]

Well that raises a fair point.

A lot of this does depend on exactly when the Trial of Refusal actually takes place.

The Star Colonel met with the Spheroids on day 4 of the ground campaign, can't remember the exact hour.  The battle will be on day 5 of the ground campaign.

So there is a pretty decent window to choose where this Trial of Refusal should take place with the more limiting factor being exactly when the Star Colonel informed his troops that he decided to take things personally than when the fight against the Spheroids is to happen.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think so.  And in that vein of hypothesizing about how Clan Honor works at the lower levels of granularity:

I think most people would agree the Clan version of "Might Makes Right" doesn't necessarily mean that you can lay down challenges of refusal/grievance while in combat.  If a Star Colonel orders you say hold the flank where your opportunities to pad your codex will be nonexistant, you don't get to challenge him right there in the middle of the battle.  You have to wait to lay down your challenge for after the battle is decided, wouldn't everyone agree?

No.  In most cases, personal trials can be suspended by the commanding officer during campaign.  Furthermore, a warrior without a Bloodname can't challenge a Bloodnamed warrior without the sponsorship of another Bloodnamed warrior.  There's no way that a trial would be conducted right in front of enemy forces, either.

Bidding is  also something that Clan commanders can and do choose to suspend based on specific circumstances.  If a Star Colonel wanted to pull rank and go out for a fight, there's nothing any of his subordinates could do until after the battle, and then they really wouldn't have much grounds to challenge him unless he lost.