Building Critical Hits and CF conversions

[Zematus737]

I notice in many of the rules that Buildings and their construction are often compared to Mobile Structures.  TO:AR often sends you to TO:AUE and you go back and forth a bit.  In IO:Battleforce, you do not get a critical hits table for armed structures, just a CF value that varies greatly in Alpha Strike to Battleforce to SBF.
Alpha Strike CF is the original CF divided almost by 30, the similar conversion rate for armor values.  Armor is also being divided by the same metric as the Construction Factor.  So, the CF in AF is, in my opinion, much too low for a structure that can be very expensive and takes very long (sometimes weeks as seen in C.O.) to build.  The CF values in Battleforce are about a third of the original Core CF values.  These values stack by the amount of levels the structure may have, but I see that wording in AF limits the values to a maximum as seen in AS:CE pg.72.   That's problematic, since even a Castle Bryan, which is just ridiculous in terms of CF in Core because of the enormity of the structure makes the value reach so high that it must be converted to Capital class armor levels.  They are rugged and can stand toe to toe with Warships attempting orbital bombardment.  In AS that would never be so with these max limits, if I'm understanding them right.

Anyway, I see that Strategic Battleforce (SBF) brings the values back up, but here they are bloated because the values noted do not reflect the CF factors it makes reference to as comparable to AS:CE.  See page 215 of IO:BF.  Note that the CF values are greatly exaggerated in comparison to those found in pg.73 of AS:CE.  The values become HUGE and i doubt anything BUT a sustained orbital bombardment could even crack a Heavy Fortification with 750CF.  Hardened is 1200!  Remember that damage values for Formations have already been cut by a 3rd for SBF conversions.  Yet the CF values are sustained.  That seems crazy.  An artillery Combat Unit has a damage Special of ART-S12. 

On a more positive note, the Adv. Building Critical Hits Table on TO:AR pg.119 looks like it will work well with Battleforce with some of the adaptations noted on page 219 of IO:BF resolving attacks against building mounted weapons for weapon or turret critical hits.  Each weapon crit reducing the damage as stated will work with BF.  This detailed list of criticals in TO:AR can also work well. 

But am I reading all this right?  See the values on page 111 of IO:BF for structures.  They are pretty much a third of the CF without levels being added as they would be in Core -- but the distinction isn't being made anywhere for this.  It looks like just a flat number applied to all structures of this class generally.  I assume that CF is set at these values for the whole structure?  I wouldn't mind a second opinion on this.  I could always just do the CF breakdowns from Core values, but they seem to be inconsistent across the scales as far as I have seen.

[Zematus737]

 I slept on this and woke up with the realization that I understand the conversions a little better now.  What I believe is happening is CF for Alpha Strike is getting the same conversion as armor, meaning it is divided by 30.  Battleforce CF was AS CF multiplied by x3, possibly because the scale rose from 10 seconds to 30 seconds a turn.  ...but the numbers still don't follow so strictly.  Bare with me and let's run with that in mind for a bit.  If the same parameters were followed for SBF, being 3 minute turns, the rise should have been x24 from Alpha Strike and not reverted to the full 30 from the base conversion.  I think this makes a big difference.  Below are some examples of the CF as they are found in the rule books, followed by what it might look like with this adjustment.

CF Values as they currently are:
Max Light Large/Medium Large/Heavy Large/Hardened Large
AS: 3/12/36/60/60x2
BF: 5/12/26/36/ (presumably 72)
SBF urban:5x30=150/12x30=360/25x30=750/40x30=1200
In the SBF chart the default CF given is high for Medium with the armored building medium CF default being used, inflated again for the large by +5, also with the armored gun emplacement CF being used.  Hardened is getting a median of 40 and that is getting the x2 for Heavy C. Bryan, with the max value of 60 used for Hardened.  There's a lot of playing with numbers here that is, imo, too loose.

As for the Critical Hit tables.  I said there was none present for buildings.  The rules state you should use the Vehicle critical hit chart.  That honestly felt a little lacking.  Though the engine hit in the vehicles chart would makes sense as a generator hit that is no longer possible with so many hexes being joined in structures in the higher scales.  Still trying to get a sense of what feels best. 

SBF CF can be cut to a third to bring it down to earth.
SBF CF numbers would rather look like the following: 40/96/200/320   i.e. 5x24=120/3[40]

[Zematus737]

To complete this thread, one could always just stick to the original conversion rates for all armor and structure and treat CF as structure.  Do the normal division of 30 for the armor, followed by multiplying the structure by .10 and just going with that.  Follow the increase of scale when appropriate and decrease the armor and CF when the scale also implements a breakdown in damage ratings.  In this way you get a more accurate representation of any custom structure that is being brought in.  There are some generic attack values that can be generated for armed buildings in both IO:BF and AS:CE that make things much simpler but you would continue to ignore some of the problems stated in the previous posts with CF being too high or much too low.

So.  Using TO:AR pg.113 maximum CF you would get the following:
armor is applied in 1 ton 16 points lots.
Light 15CF max armor 0 - AS: armor 0 structure 2
Medium 40CF max armor 32 - AS: armor 1 structure 4
Heavy 90 CF max armor 80 - AS: armor 3 structure 9
Hardened 150CF max armor 144 - AS: armor 5 structure 15

Please keep in mind these are all for single hex buildings.  The values would be multiplied by hex and level of the structure.  For instance, a 3 hex 2 level Medium would be 240CF and 160 armor.  I know Alpha Strike can separate the facings so they function like hexes in Core with armor apportioned to each facing, but in the higher scales the building would appear as a single unit with 5 armor and 24 structure or CF, for Battleforce or AS in particular.
Hey.  It can work but does require time.  Time that may be well spent as structures are cool and their utility should reflect their cost without breaking the scale experience with disproportionate parameters.

So, to reiterate the final adjustment above.  Identify the building type (Small, Med, Hvy, etc.) and use the generic value presented or go with the Core original building CF and armor values, then multiply the CF and Armor value both separately by sum of the hexes and level of the structure (i.e. above was 3 hexes x 2 lvl, or 2x3=6, with 6xCF and 6xArm).  Then divide the CF by 30, round normally.    Lastly multiply the Armor by 0.10.  You now have Battleforce/Alphastrike equivalent unit data.  If it is SBF scale, divide both values by 3.

[nckestrel]

Buildings are complicated because they are a mix of terrain and unit.  And the definition of terrain changes dramatically with changes of scale.  A total warfare building hex is 30m across.  A BattleForce building hex is 90m across. There are very different things. Since they are three dimensional, tripling one measurement is nine times the overall volume. A BF building hex is huge, and correspondingly much more difficult to destroy.

[Zematus737]

Buildings are complicated because they are a mix of terrain and unit.  And the definition of terrain changes dramatically with changes of scale.  A total warfare building hex is 30m across.  A BattleForce building hex is 90m across. There are very different things. Since they are three dimensional, tripling one measurement is nine times the overall volume. A BF building hex is huge, and correspondingly much more difficult to destroy.

I try not to translate the exact dimensions of the buildings as they come from Core.  The size of the building should stay the same in meters as you zoom out to the higher scales.  If a building is, in hexes, 12 long and 6 wide I try to break that down to a third of the hexes for Battleforce as 4 long and 2 wide, in keeping with the normal conversion rates of most other things to the next scale.  It helps preserve my sanity.  Single hex buildings I leave as is with the building hex proxy piece to save on time and will just call it a day.  I may divide the whole armor and CF between BF buildings that span several hexes, but I don't anticipate playing anything soon with such large units myself.  I'm mostly interested in Succession War content atm and C.Bryan structures are almost exclusive Star League or Comstar tech.  Buildings in Core are pretty beefy too, but nothing that should take an exaggerated amount of units to break.  Especially so because the breakdown of armor and CF between several hexes.  Either way, thanks for the input.