Author Topic: Machines of the First Princes?  (Read 3290 times)

Weirdo

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Machines of the First Princes?
« on: 19 September 2024, 13:43:49 »
I'm trying to put together a list of the mechs and other units piloted by the various First Princes of the Federated Suns. So far, I think I've got a handle on most of the Princes of the current millennium. Note, I know some of these did switch around sitting their careers, I'm just going with their latest one or the one most associated with them. Also, not really worrying about exact variant or configuration.

Alexander - ???
Joseph I - Marauder
Joseph II - Battlemaster
Ian - Atlas
Hanse - Battlemaster
Victor - Daishi
Katherine - Technically Regent vs First Prince, did not serve until after joining Clan Wolf
Yvonne - Infantry
Harrison - ???
Caleb - Marksman MBT
Erik (Sandoval-Groel) - Regent - Axman
Julian - Marauder II

Is there any information regarding Harrison Davion in this regard? For that matter, do we have this info for any Pre-Ian Princes?
« Last Edit: 19 September 2024, 16:50:38 by Weirdo »
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Mendrugo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #1 on: 19 September 2024, 14:45:51 »
Iron Writer 2007's "Raven" put Alexander Davion in a Marauder.

However, this is an anachronism, since the Marauder chassis wouldn't exist until a century later.  Given the weapons loadout, I believe a Hammerhands 4D allows him to shoot all the weapons described in the story, without breaking continuity. 

Per Era Report: 2750, Joseph Davion pilots a Marauder without continuity issues.  He dies at its controls on Royal.

Prince Carl also piloted a Marauder, dying in it on David.

Overall, it looks like if you don't know a Prince's ride, you aren't going to be taking too great a risk if you guess Marauder.

From Handbook: House Davion
- Joseph Davion II - BattleMaster
« Last Edit: 19 September 2024, 14:59:55 by Mendrugo »
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Weirdo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #2 on: 19 September 2024, 14:51:14 »
I'll leave Al as an unknown for now. Thanks for the Joe info!
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #3 on: 19 September 2024, 15:03:24 »
I know you mentioned duplicates not needed, but, for completeness,  Victor had his Victor, but, didn't Julian have a Templar-III at some point?
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #4 on: 19 September 2024, 15:21:33 »
Clarifying 2 Josephs.

Joseph-I = Marauder
Joseph-II = Battlemaster


Katie didn't have a mech while she acted as First Prince, but, she did have a Warhawk in her TOP & a Griffin of some stripe later on with Clan Wolf.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #5 on: 19 September 2024, 15:28:21 »
Iron Writer 2007's "Raven" put Alexander Davion in a Marauder.

However, this is an anachronism, since the Marauder chassis wouldn't exist until a century later.  Given the weapons loadout, I believe a Hammerhands 4D allows him to shoot all the weapons described in the story, without breaking continuity. 

Dieing 12 years before the Marauder was introduced.......... I'm not even sure an early prototype would qualify there.

Given the era & weaponry,  Mackie & Striker might also qualify.




Quote
Per Era Report: 2750, Joseph Davion pilots a Marauder without continuity issues.  He dies at its controls on Royal.

Prince Carl also piloted a Marauder, dying in it on David.

From Handbook: House Davion  - Joseph Davion II - BattleMaster

Given all the action she saw, I'm surprised there is no note about what Melissa Davion was using with the Assault Guards or Avalon Hussars.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Mendrugo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #6 on: 19 September 2024, 15:38:55 »
Given all the action she saw, I'm surprised there is no note about what Melissa Davion was using with the Assault Guards or Avalon Hussars.

She made her way to David to claim her brother's body and ravaged Marauder, but it doesn't say what she piloted.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Templar87

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #7 on: 19 September 2024, 16:04:36 »
I know you mentioned duplicates not needed, but, for completeness,  Victor had his Victor, but, didn't Julian have a Templar-III at some point?


Julian's used an Enforcer III and Templar III; the latter for most of his career as a Mechwarrior until it was wrecked on New Syrtis.
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Moragion

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #8 on: 19 September 2024, 16:24:58 »
Pretty sure Yvonne had no military training of any kind. That's why she was Regent, and not First Prince. Unless it is mentioned in some sourcebook I haven't read (quite a few of those still left for me to read).

Weirdo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #9 on: 19 September 2024, 16:47:13 »
In a novel(one of the Blood of Kerensky ones, I think), she discusses having gone through infantry training instead of mech.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #10 on: 19 September 2024, 18:31:31 »
I definitely recall Yvonne having received infantry training.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #11 on: 19 September 2024, 21:26:06 »
In a novel(one of the Blood of Kerensky ones, I think), she discusses having gone through infantry training instead of mech.

Yvonne was in Blood of Kerensky?   I doubt that, she would have been line 11 at the time.
I mean maybe but not to the point of having Infantry Training.


As for is she ever got it.
If she did it would have made her eligible for 1st Prince which she never was & was only Regent.


Are you sure your not thinking of Melissa & the fact that her early aptitude scores showed high for small unit tactics & such?
Even she went on to pilot Katrina's Warhammer & didn't serve in the Jump Infantry.
« Last Edit: 19 September 2024, 21:29:16 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #12 on: 19 September 2024, 22:03:27 »
IIRC, Victor appointing Yvonne regent was what caused her to become ineligible for First Princess.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #13 on: 19 September 2024, 22:05:20 »
Melissa did go infantry. Did she ever actually serve in Katrina's Warhammer though, doubtful.

Perhaps she was trained to parade competence but she was with or raising children till she was 40 and was widowed before providing guidance to Victor until her untimely demise.

She wouldn't have had time to MechWarrior.

IIRC, Victor appointing Yvonne regent was what caused her to become ineligible for First Princess.

Yes, it was a bonehead move that his counselors should have vetoed but he was surrounded by yes men. It did prevent Katrina from succeeding as First Prince however as she merely assumed her little sisters title as she didn't have the necessary service.

You could also be confusing General Yvonne Davison, Yvonne SD's namesake who could have been active at the time or fondly remembered.

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #14 on: 19 September 2024, 22:07:02 »
No, she was calling herself First Princess in spite of lacking the necessary service.  And all the yes men in court went along with it, proclaiming that she was the legitimate ruler.  Somehow.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #15 on: 19 September 2024, 22:22:34 »
IIRC, Victor appointing Yvonne regent was what caused her to become ineligible for First Princess.

If that is true then that has got to be some serious short sightedness on his part.

He was going off to face the clans.  What if he died?  So the one he feels best to lead temporarily is then not eligible to take over?

Not saying your wrong, since, well, that is a great way to stop a regent from killing an Heir that is a Minor.
But it is an issue in the case of an absent leader.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #16 on: 19 September 2024, 22:27:44 »
Melissa did go infantry. Did she ever actually serve in Katrina's Warhammer though, doubtful.
Do you have a source for that?
The entire Melissa Infantry thing is about her testing scores as an early Teen.
It's from the LyrCom 80's book & also said the Archon isn't about to let her daughter join the Jump Infantry.

Quote
She wouldn't have had time to MechWarrior.
So the Archon has no nannies?  Really?   LOL.
Either Wo39 or 20 Year Update she did learn how to pilot her Mother's Warhammer passably IE...  Regular Not Elite.
I'd assume the Archon has plenty of time to drill with the 2 Royal Guards regiments on Tharkhad any time she wants.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #17 on: 19 September 2024, 22:29:00 »
No, she was calling herself First Princess in spite of lacking the necessary service.  And all the yes men in court went along with it, proclaiming that she was the legitimate ruler.  Somehow.

To be fair, Katie was doing that far more than Yvonne ever would have.
I mean, she was regent for less than 2 years, or was it Less than 1?   I forget.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #18 on: 19 September 2024, 22:54:36 »
If that is true then that has got to be some serious short sightedness on his part.

He was going off to face the clans.  What if he died?  So the one he feels best to lead temporarily is then not eligible to take over?

Yes, there were many other people he could have picked.  People who were older, more experienced (that is to say, they actually had experience), and not in the line of succession.  But the numerous problems with all the events leading up to the FedCom Civil War has been argued many times and is off topic for this thread.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #19 on: 20 September 2024, 04:13:58 »
Yes, there were many other people he could have picked.  People who were older, more experienced (that is to say, they actually had experience), and not in the line of succession.  But the numerous problems with all the events leading up to the FedCom Civil War has been argued many times and is off topic for this thread.

yeah it's clear that the writing team behind the FCCW didn't read their own sourcebooks, and move on.

regarding Harrison, do we know if he even served in active duty, or was his time in service a rear line paper pusher?
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #20 on: 20 September 2024, 05:37:36 »
yeah it's clear that the writing team behind the FCCW didn't read their own sourcebooks, and move on.

regarding Harrison, do we know if he even served in active duty, or was his time in service a rear line paper pusher?

Probably went through his tour of duty without any incident (after all the lore text in FM3085 did state that the 1st Davion Guards already reserved a spot for him in the mess hall when he was a little child). The only "wars" that happened in his time was the Sandoval civil war and that was when Tancred was alive and the Victoria war which did not see him on the front lines, just ordering units to shore up the border. And if he really served with the 1st Guards then he most likely didn't see any combat. How the times change: Victor was posted on the Periphery border to get at least some experience (and not with a prominent unit but rather a regular line unit) but Harrsison seems to have been "cuddled" while Julian fought Taurians before the Dark Age started
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BrianDavion

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #21 on: 20 September 2024, 06:24:28 »
Probably went through his tour of duty without any incident (after all the lore text in FM3085 did state that the 1st Davion Guards already reserved a spot for him in the mess hall when he was a little child). The only "wars" that happened in his time was the Sandoval civil war and that was when Tancred was alive and the Victoria war which did not see him on the front lines, just ordering units to shore up the border. And if he really served with the 1st Guards then he most likely didn't see any combat. How the times change: Victor was posted on the Periphery border to get at least some experience (and not with a prominent unit but rather a regular line unit) but Harrsison seems to have been "cuddled" while Julian fought Taurians before the Dark Age started

coddled you mean, and I tend to agree, and the coddling explains his military policy (or lack thereof). It's clear that the FCCW did nothing for Yvvone's Naivity
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #22 on: 20 September 2024, 07:10:00 »
So the Archon has no nannies?  Really?   LOL.
Either Wo39 or 20 Year Update she did learn how to pilot her Mother's Warhammer passably IE...  Regular Not Elite.
I'd assume the Archon has plenty of time to drill with the 2 Royal Guards regiments on Tharkhad any time she wants.

Drill isn't combat though and the action at that time was the 4SW kicked off by her very young marriage to Hanse. The next action is 3039 when Yvonne SD was a baby. The next action is the Clans and we know where she was at that time. Then Hanse dies in 3052 leaving her in the transition phase to Victor as the First Prince-Archon. The she was assassinated in 3055.

Also there is a Melissa Steiner connection to Point Barrow Military Academy, the AFFS' conventional academy. Further showing her preferences.

Mendrugo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #23 on: 20 September 2024, 08:32:28 »
From the Warrior Trilogy:

Quote
Ardan gave Melissa’s shoulders a squeeze. “As I recall, you did not study to become a MechWarrior.”

“I was too skinny. They trained me for infantry.” The dejection in her voice slowed her words to a dirge.

Ardan reached out with his right hand and tilted the girl’s head up so that he could look her in the eye. “I seem to recall that you did well in that
training. Didn’t you once tell me to tell Hanse that he’d be getting a wife who could command the household infantry while he ordered his ’Mechs about?”

Melissa shook her head. “Those were games, Ardan.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #24 on: 20 September 2024, 09:12:34 »
coddled you mean, and I tend to agree, and the coddling explains his military policy (or lack thereof). It's clear that the FCCW did nothing for Yvvone's Naivity
Ok I miswrote. To be fair here Yvonne's strategy for Matador and ceding worlds to the Repbulic wasn't wrong. I mean keeping your heir safe is one thing but letting him or her get experience is also important. Heck Janos MArik was given a Rifleman as his first Mech by his father and then send to the frontlines. Ignoring the modifications Janos made to his Mech this is certainly a rather harsh way to treat your heir, isn't it?
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Templar87

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #25 on: 20 September 2024, 09:40:37 »
Probably went through his tour of duty without any incident (after all the lore text in FM3085 did state that the 1st Davion Guards already reserved a spot for him in the mess hall when he was a little child). The only "wars" that happened in his time was the Sandoval civil war and that was when Tancred was alive and the Victoria war which did not see him on the front lines, just ordering units to shore up the border. And if he really served with the 1st Guards then he most likely didn't see any combat. How the times change: Victor was posted on the Periphery border to get at least some experience (and not with a prominent unit but rather a regular line unit) but Harrsison seems to have been "cuddled" while Julian fought Taurians before the Dark Age started


However, for Julian at least that doesn't seem to've been the plan; it's remarked on in TRO Dark Age that his company was officially deployed on New Syrtis, not Taygeta, and it seems like the idea from Harrison's side was trying to keep Julian out of trouble (and with Amanda Hasek exerting her influence to get Julian a company command slot in the Sixth Syrtis, a quiet public duties posting on New Syrtis probably seemed the best option).


Ok I miswrote. To be fair here Yvonne's strategy for Matador


I gotta disagree on this one, 'cause Yvonne managed to make sure that MATADOR was worse than useless by the way she concluded it.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #26 on: 20 September 2024, 12:36:02 »

I gotta disagree on this one, 'cause Yvonne managed to make sure that MATADOR was worse than useless by the way she concluded it.

How so? The Taurians lost their Warship and also several important planets. While the Suns lost the Pleiades Cluster it became something of a weight around the Taurian's neck. And the one who ruined the Suns attack was Nathaniel Hasek when he brought a unit he was not supposed to bring with him (the Syrtis Avengers) to Ridgebrook
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Cannonshop

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #27 on: 20 September 2024, 12:41:58 »
wouldn't one of the earlier ones have piloted a Mackie?
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #28 on: 20 September 2024, 12:50:15 »
From the Warrior Trilogy: 

Thanks for the reminder!

Given the year she was 15-16 at the time.
  Sounds like Basic Training, or,  more like a Royal having been given the equivalent of basic & then participated in War Games.
Kind of how Grayson was given training by the Sgt at Arms growing up in Carlysle's Commandos.

It doesn't come across, to me, as having attended a 4-year+ Academy & actual Basic/AIT schools.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #29 on: 20 September 2024, 12:51:33 »
Drill isn't combat though and the action at that time was the 4SW kicked off by her very young marriage to Hanse. The next action is 3039 when Yvonne SD was a baby. The next action is the Clans and we know where she was at that time. Then Hanse dies in 3052 leaving her in the transition phase to Victor as the First Prince-Archon. The she was assassinated in 3055.

Also there is a Melissa Steiner connection to Point Barrow Military Academy, the AFFS' conventional academy. Further showing her preferences.

True Drill isn't action.
But she also wouldn't have seen any in the Infantry either.
If there is no time for combat for 1 then there isn't for the other.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #30 on: 20 September 2024, 12:52:51 »
Kind of weird that someone who was “too skinny” to be a mechwarrior could perform as infantry.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #31 on: 20 September 2024, 12:53:38 »
wouldn't one of the earlier ones have piloted a Mackie?

I mentioned up thread that since Marauder can't fit the Timeline for Alexander......... the Mackie & Striker both match a weapon load of PPC/AC/MLs.
As does the Hammerhands-4D that someone else mentioned.
But given they both start with MA, I kind of like the Mackie idea myself.  Minor Typo :)
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #32 on: 20 September 2024, 12:57:47 »
Kind of weird that someone who was “too skinny” to be a mechwarrior could perform as infantry.

Size doesn't have much to do with Hand-Eye coordination though for being a good shot.
Or for the concepts of Map Reading, Small Unit Tactics, etc etc.

She was clearly intelligent......... and the Brain is your best weapon.    That & Ortillery.  :cool:
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #33 on: 20 September 2024, 13:03:38 »
I mentioned up thread that since Marauder can't fit the Timeline for Alexander......... the Mackie & Striker both match a weapon load of PPC/AC/MLs.
As does the Hammerhands-4D that someone else mentioned.
But given they both start with MA, I kind of like the Mackie idea myself.  Minor Typo :)

Raven says that Alexander's 'Mech has Hellstar PPCs in each arm and and a big Whirlwind cannon backing it up.  The other main user of the Hellstar was the Striker, but that wasn't developed until 2571, long after the Davion Civil War.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #34 on: 20 September 2024, 13:06:37 »
Kind of weird that someone who was “too skinny” to be a mechwarrior could perform as infantry.

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #35 on: 20 September 2024, 13:57:06 »
Raven says that Alexander's 'Mech has Hellstar PPCs in each arm and and a big Whirlwind cannon backing it up.  The other main user of the Hellstar was the Striker, but that wasn't developed until 2571, long after the Davion Civil War.

That is more detail than given up thread.

Now that said... Hmm.   I feel like you COULD get something like that via the Warhammer/Battleaxe chassis if you swap out the Missiles/Etc for an AC5.
PPC brand could be from a refit/repair change that resulted in the AC as well.

Possibly also paid for w/ a custom Endo chassis which was in use at that point.

Though really, I still think a customized Mackie is probably the easiest way to get that much firepower w/o huge changes.
The 7 Series used Standard tech v/s the Proto-Engine & was available for 50+ years at that point. 
We have 2 canon examples but the fluff seems to imply there where many.
You could even call it the 7"R" to match the Marauder series.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #36 on: 20 September 2024, 14:55:07 »
Plus, they call it a Marauder about 30 times.  You could, I suppose, handwave that as the name he gave to his 'Mech, like "Dark Lady," "Grinner," or "Wepwawet."
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #37 on: 20 September 2024, 15:31:08 »
Size doesn't have much to do with Hand-Eye coordination though for being a good shot.
Or for the concepts of Map Reading, Small Unit Tactics, etc etc.

She was clearly intelligent......... and the Brain is your best weapon.    That & Ortillery.  :cool:

Does she also get a valet to carry her infantry kit for the 20 kilometer hike?  Infantry is generally a lot more physically strenuous than being a mechwarrior is.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #38 on: 20 September 2024, 15:36:07 »
Does she also get a valet to carry her infantry kit for the 20 kilometer hike? 

Richard "Big Daddy" Whitman kept offering...
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #39 on: 20 September 2024, 18:02:23 »
Does she also get a valet to carry her infantry kit for the 20 kilometer hike?  Infantry is generally a lot more physically strenuous than being a mechwarrior is.

It was war games, doubt they had a road march.
Road Marches are done in Basic v/s AIT last I checked so I'm assuming everyone has that same level of physicality.
Maybe the skinny part was from being bounced around in the cockpit.  Pilot checks are a thing.
Maybe "frail" is a better word.
Fighter Pilots probably have to have some measure of stamina to survive G-Forces.
I can confirm that an Abrams can give you one heck of a shaking & that doesn't involve falls from 12M up.

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #40 on: 20 September 2024, 20:05:58 »
It was war games, doubt they had a road march.
Road Marches are done in Basic v/s AIT last I checked so I'm assuming everyone has that same level of physicality.
Maybe the skinny part was from being bounced around in the cockpit.  Pilot checks are a thing.
Maybe "frail" is a better word.
Fighter Pilots probably have to have some measure of stamina to survive G-Forces.
I can confirm that an Abrams can give you one heck of a shaking & that doesn't involve falls from 12M up.

Yes, and my point is that if Melissa truly wasn't considered physically fit enough to be a mechwarrior, she probably wouldn't have actually been fit enough to serve as infantry, either.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #41 on: 20 September 2024, 21:30:22 »

Given all the action she saw, I'm surprised there is no note about what Melissa Davion was using with the Assault Guards or Avalon Hussars.
It's admittedly conjecture, but I think she drove an Awesome.  Why?  On p.63 of Handbook House Davion, there's a text block titled "The First Modern Prince" that's all about Melissa's military reforms, the Model Army, and the RCT.  Above it, taking up the rest of the page, is a picture (uncaptioned, as is sadly the norm in those books) of a female mechwarrior standing in front of two Awesomes.  The Awesome also fits with what we know of her service, since she was in the Assault Guards.  I don't know who *else* that would be a picture of, but I suppose all the logic in the world doesn't make that official canon.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #42 on: 23 September 2024, 17:26:39 »
If that is true then that has got to be some serious short sightedness on his part.

He was going off to face the clans.  What if he died?  So the one he feels best to lead temporarily is then not eligible to take over?

Not saying your wrong, since, well, that is a great way to stop a regent from killing an Heir that is a Minor.
But it is an issue in the case of an absent leader.

Remember that Victor did this shortly after deciding Terra wasn't important despite the fact his WarShip navy was, at the time, 100% dependent on Terra for engines. He's a stupid man.

But yes, since Alexander, if you serve as a Regent you are automatically unable to ever be First Prince. He wanted to make sure anyone who ran the state would only do so knowing they could never rule in their own right if they did.


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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #43 on: 23 September 2024, 20:01:45 »
Remember that Victor did this shortly after deciding Terra wasn't important despite the fact his WarShip navy was, at the time, 100% dependent on Terra for engines. He's a stupid man.

But yes, since Alexander, if you serve as a Regent you are automatically unable to ever be First Prince. He wanted to make sure anyone who ran the state would only do so knowing they could never rule in their own right if they did.

as I said before a lot of these mistakes where basicly FASA not reading their own books. and it really did create some plot holes for the FCCW and to som extent the Jihad.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #44 on: 23 September 2024, 20:11:05 »
Remember that Victor did this shortly after deciding Terra wasn't important despite the fact his WarShip navy was, at the time, 100% dependent on Terra for engines. He's a stupid man.

But yes, since Alexander, if you serve as a Regent you are automatically unable to ever be First Prince. He wanted to make sure anyone who ran the state would only do so knowing they could never rule in their own right if they did.



as I said before a lot of these mistakes where basicly FASA not reading their own books. and it really did create some plot holes for the FCCW and to som extent the Jihad.



Technically it was FOCHT that decided that.
More accurately still, TERRA isn't where the engines were made. 
They were from the Titan Yards, something C* still still possessed for another 4? years after losing the planet.

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #45 on: 24 September 2024, 02:40:46 »
in fact Victor's immediate response when Terra was captured was to offer Focht the aide of the AFFC in recapturing Terra, had Focht accepted the offer chances are the word of blake would have been driven off world
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #46 on: 24 September 2024, 03:13:19 »
How so? The Taurians lost their Warship and also several important planets. While the Suns lost the Pleiades Cluster it became something of a weight around the Taurian's neck. And the one who ruined the Suns attack was Nathaniel Hasek when he brought a unit he was not supposed to bring with him (the Syrtis Avengers) to Ridgebrook


Well, firstly Yvonne shouldn't, from a political perspective, have been interfering in deployment choices like that; that kind of thing is explicitly the responsibility of the March Commands, and interference like that is one of the reasons that there's very little trust of New Avalon going into the Republic and Dark Age eras among the Marchs. But, that wasn't actually what I meant; what I meant, was Yvonne's decision to back down in the face of the Taurians' genocidal threats rather than make it clear that if they step over that line, the AFFS will escalate things and the Taurians will not enjoy the experience.


The Capellans and Kuritans absolutely 100% have no problem with threatening, or engaging in, mass slaughter to get their way, and Yvonne publicly backing down in the face of such threats is declaring open season on the Suns.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #47 on: 24 September 2024, 05:53:02 »

Well, firstly Yvonne shouldn't, from a political perspective, have been interfering in deployment choices like that; that kind of thing is explicitly the responsibility of the March Commands, and interference like that is one of the reasons that there's very little trust of New Avalon going into the Republic and Dark Age eras among the Marchs. But, that wasn't actually what I meant; what I meant, was Yvonne's decision to back down in the face of the Taurians' genocidal threats rather than make it clear that if they step over that line, the AFFS will escalate things and the Taurians will not enjoy the experience.


The Capellans and Kuritans absolutely 100% have no problem with threatening, or engaging in, mass slaughter to get their way, and Yvonne publicly backing down in the face of such threats is declaring open season on the Suns.

Not like the Taurians had already experienced that when the AFFS let Hansen's Roughriders loose and they cut a swath of destruction across the Concordat. Who's to say they could have not done the same again without WMD's? Plus the Concordat was basically pinned down already as the Warship was out of action. So in that case best not to let millions die for one world (not to mention the bloody Jihad was just over for a short time). And considering how Nathaniel threw the operation on ridgebrook away just shows that Yvonne was right and that the Haseks often have some screws loose in the head.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #48 on: 24 September 2024, 09:37:51 »
The AFFS didn’t so much let the Roughriders loose as they stayed out of the firing line.  The Roughriders seem like they would have been willing to fight through the AFFS to get to the Taurians.  Even years after the massacre, Hansen was only barely keeping his unit together himself.  It didn’t help that their AFFS liaison also lost his family on Bromhead, and wasn’t really willing to rein them in.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #49 on: 24 September 2024, 12:10:48 »
Hey, how much of this discussion belongs in a thread dedicated to identifying the machines piloted by leaders of the Federated Suns?
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #50 on: 24 September 2024, 13:34:13 »
Hey, how much of this discussion belongs in a thread dedicated to identifying the machines piloted by leaders of the Federated Suns?

yeah we've kinda veered off course. on a related note because I've been trying to figure out... what tank did Caleb crew? has it been mentioned?
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #51 on: 24 September 2024, 13:39:20 »
yeah we've kinda veered off course. on a related note because I've been trying to figure out... what tank did Caleb crew? has it been mentioned?

An M1 Marksman I think
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #52 on: 24 September 2024, 13:40:27 »
yeah we've kinda veered off course. on a related note because I've been trying to figure out... what tank did Caleb crew? has it been mentioned?


Both times we've seen him fighting on-screen, in Fortress Republic and ER 3145, he's been using an M1 Marksman, apparently the base model.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #53 on: 24 September 2024, 19:12:57 »

Both times we've seen him fighting on-screen, in Fortress Republic and ER 3145, he's been using an M1 Marksman, apparently the base model.

yeah I was wondering about that, apparently he really liked the patton but I figured he'd be in a MWDA tank
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #54 on: 24 September 2024, 20:53:10 »
Was there any word on how Caleb ended up as a tanker instead of a mechwarrior?  He really doesn't seem like he had the personality for it.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #55 on: 25 September 2024, 01:17:30 »
Was there any word on how Caleb ended up as a tanker instead of a mechwarrior?  He really doesn't seem like he had the personality for it.

Position and requirement, I imagine. He's too aggressive to accept a desk job, and too vain to accept an infantry post, and probably couldn't hack 'mech training due to poor reflexes (same way he wouldn't be able to pass flight school), so there you go.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #56 on: 25 September 2024, 01:25:03 »
That makes sense.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #57 on: 25 September 2024, 01:38:13 »
Apparently he simply didn't synch well with neurohelmets
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #58 on: 25 September 2024, 01:39:38 »
Apparently he simply didn't synch well with neurohelmets

given his canon behavior, it's possible he was neurologically defective, but I think he was just indulged and coddled to the point of being Joffrey'd into a human piece of waste.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #59 on: 25 September 2024, 01:42:16 »
Was there any word on how Caleb ended up as a tanker instead of a mechwarrior?  He really doesn't seem like he had the personality for it.


Neurohelmet incompatibility, and shifted into armour command track for unspecified reasons.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #60 on: 25 September 2024, 01:46:12 »
it's been inffered his schitzophrenia cuased his neurohelmet incompatablity
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #61 on: 25 September 2024, 03:52:49 »
it's been inffered his schitzophrenia cuased his neurohelmet incompatablity


It's definitely plausible; we know neurological conditions can cause that (one character in A Call To Arms is rendered unable to synch with a BattleMech-grade neurohelmet due to a TBI, though she can still use an IndustrialMech-grade one). However, I was more referring to why Caleb got shifted into armour specifically; we don't know on that count, and I'd have to check Sword of Sedition but IIRC Julian mentions Caleb being "rushed through" training and shuffled off to honourary command of the Syrtis Avengers' tank brigade with undue haste.


Might just be as simple as armour command training having the quickest training cycle and Harrison just wanting things done with, for all we know.
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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #62 on: 25 September 2024, 04:06:55 »

It's definitely plausible; we know neurological conditions can cause that (one character in A Call To Arms is rendered unable to synch with a BattleMech-grade neurohelmet due to a TBI, though she can still use an IndustrialMech-grade one). However, I was more referring to why Caleb got shifted into armour specifically; we don't know on that count, and I'd have to check Sword of Sedition but IIRC Julian mentions Caleb being "rushed through" training and shuffled off to honourary command of the Syrtis Avengers' tank brigade with undue haste.


Might just be as simple as armour command training having the quickest training cycle and Harrison just wanting things done with, for all we know.

Affluenza, and he probably couldn't medical for Flight school even with a waiver.

LOOK at the man's behaviors-and don't use Schizophrenic episodes as an excuse, look at how he applies his base assumptions.

Here's how it most likely went down;

Caleb was Harrison's darling son, maybe the only son he could get from his wife (and/or concubines) and the Crown Prince of the Federated Suns as well.

So Caleb is raised like little lord Fauntleroy, gets what he wants, when he wants it, other people get the discipline (maybe the Feddies resurrected that ancient feudal practice of 'The Whipping boy', which might explain his sadism to an extent).

Well, he gets to that age where you test for 'mechwarrior ability (the ability to synch a neurohelmet) and shock-of-shocks!! He can't make it work, maybe even picked up a bit of a feedback injury from trying.

This obviously DQ's him from 'mechs, but it also DQ'q him from Aviation, and maybe his reflexes underline it.

But! He's the Royal Heir!!

and he's soft, sensitive to slights, not infantry material.

Where do you stick him?

In a Tank, with a crew cross-trained as bodyguards, because the First Prince Must have a military background *(it's the law!) and Armor has, at least, some cache' above Infantry.

(and it's not like the FSN has a Naval command that doesn't demand fighter branch first.)

Ergo, they make him a  tanker and give him a crew that will cover his ass both in the field, and cover for his...excesses at home (because Danai was probably NOT the first girl who said 'no' and he just went ahead and did to her anyway.)

Which is also why, once it sank in just what kind of 'man' Caleb was, Harry decided he'd rather have Julian on the throne.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #63 on: 25 September 2024, 06:02:41 »
In sword of Sedition Julian has a inner monologue how caleb failed his Mechwarrior training and switched to the armor corps, rushing his training. As others stated he probably couldn't perform the "skull-cap test" which disqualifies a pilot from Mech and fighter training. This leaves armor and infantry. and you can't send the possible heir to the infantry. At least give him some protection around him (why not put him in a Challenger or even Gürteltier then?). Heck if Harrison would have had a sense of humor he would have put Caleb into a Partisan tank. Then in fortress Republic Gavin hands Julian the medical records as well as the training records which implies that Harrison manipulated things behind the scenes. Perhaps worth to mention: if those records would have become public Harrison would most likely have been pressured to sire another child. The problem was that he was advised not to concive another child with his wife or she would actualy die. And as he loved her so dearly he probably did not want to divorce her or take a mistress. And from there I would assume he began tohatch a plan: build up another heir which in this case was Julian who got a "training on the job" especially with the tour to Terra. Problem in that case of course was that NOBODY within the Suns administration or high command knew about this.

Btw the Federated Suns had once nearly a civil war over which branch would dominate: Mechs or aerospace fighters. Was that prince an actual aerospace fighter pilot? Or were the Princes always Mech pilots?
That what does not kill us has made it's last mistake!

We are eternal! We are etheral! We will fight you until the skies fall and the heavens burn!

Remember: retreat hell!

Templar87

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #64 on: 25 September 2024, 06:22:17 »
Btw the Federated Suns had once nearly a civil war over which branch would dominate: Mechs or aerospace fighters. Was that prince an actual aerospace fighter pilot? Or were the Princes always Mech pilots?


We don't know what service branch Peter Davion was, just that he was using aerospace fighter-won victories as a wedge to get the Warrior Cabals out of power. And I don't think we know on the second count either; most of the First Princes whose service branch we know have been mechwarriors, but not all (Ellen Davion, for instance, served entirely in staff side postings (albeit that was due mainly to her arsehole brother James exerting considerable effort to keep her out of combat training)).
“Keep your feet on the ground, a spare magazine in your pocket, watch your buddy’s back and never, ever give anything but your all!”
–First Prince Andrew Davion
"He who has made no mistakes in war has never made war."
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #65 on: 25 September 2024, 13:19:42 »
IIRC it was actually the failed neurohelmet testing that caused doctors to look more closely at Caleb's neurological profile and discover what was wrong with him.  But it's been a decade+ since I read those books, and I'm not sure I could find the reference if I had my copy.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Metallgewitter

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Re: Machines of the First Princes?
« Reply #66 on: 25 September 2024, 15:14:10 »
The most clear hint is in Fortress Republic in the dialogue between Julian and Gavin. Gavin opens with "Caleb is insane" and Julian first answers half jokingly and Gavin dryly states "Clinical insane" while passing Julian all those medical records and I think also Caleb's training records which were buried / falsified by Harrison.
That what does not kill us has made it's last mistake!

We are eternal! We are etheral! We will fight you until the skies fall and the heavens burn!

Remember: retreat hell!