Author Topic: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV  (Read 12248 times)

Caedis Animus

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #60 on: 11 November 2018, 15:11:39 »
the C-bill listing is just a stand-in for the resource cost, and you guys bring up  a red herring to avoid answering my question-how many Mad Cat Mk IVs can you get for the price of a Star of Timberwolves?  Call it "Kerenskies", "Trade Dollars", "purple pandas" or whatever, the  numerical listing is the resource cost of production in a 'common term' the same way that Latin is used as a common language in medical and some biological research.
Okay.

How many Timber Wolves are produced in a year circa 3145? How many Savage Wolves? Who has demand for those mechs? How much does it cost to ship one of either of those mechs? How many of both exist concurrently in 3145? Where do you source the raw materials for the XXL and XL Engines, who manufactures the individual parts in both of those components? How much does it cost for a one-ton batch of rare earth metals and more to make those engines, much less deliver them to the engine factory? How much do you pay the person supervising the mining equipment for getting those metals? How much does a lost engine cost due to shipment accidents? Are they insured?

These are all very, VERY important notes as to exactly how utterly screwed up economics are in Battletech; Only maybe one of those questions get a hard answer, and none of them correlate to the still-unknown-price of a stick of space butter in Marian Talents or the inflation/deflation of the Taurian Bull in 3145. Discussing the hard C-Bill cost and how it somehow manages to fit a now production-grade piece of engine equipment is an exercise in futility, and it won't go anywhere good.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2018, 15:14:47 by Caedis Animus »

Scotty

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #61 on: 11 November 2018, 15:14:26 »
This is exactly why I brought up C-bills being garbage in direct response to the supposition that if a commander can only afford X units of currency what is more effective.

We have no idea, because all of the possible unit of currency prices are complete bullshit.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #62 on: 11 November 2018, 15:17:27 »
Yeah, whatever currency you're using.. if you could buy a Mad Cat you've also got enough to instead buy a MkIV.

Cannonshop

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #63 on: 11 November 2018, 15:24:34 »
Well it's not avoiding your question.. at this point it's beating the dead horse.

Buying a star of 5 Mad Cats costs 1000* SPs in a campaign run under modern rules.  For 1000 SPs you can also instead buy 5 Mad Cat Mk IVs.


*caveat= Shooting from memory here.  A clan-tech 75 ton omni may cost something other than 200 SPs.  The moral of the story here is that Mad Cat and Mad Cat Mk IVs are both clan-tech, 75 ton omnis and therefore cost the same to procure. XL vs XXL vs SFE no longer matters in "price".

so, what you're saying is, they've dumbed the rules down to a post-scarcity society.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #64 on: 11 November 2018, 15:28:56 »
so, what you're saying is, they've dumbed the rules down to a post-scarcity society.

No, they've abandoned bothering to make FASAnomics work because it doesn't.  If you think that's "dumbing down" then I'm afraid you've misdiagnosed what was dumb in the first place (it was FASAnomics).
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Cannonshop

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #65 on: 11 November 2018, 15:43:33 »
No, they've abandoned bothering to make FASAnomics work because it doesn't.  If you think that's "dumbing down" then I'm afraid you've misdiagnosed what was dumb in the first place (it was FASAnomics).

lemme put it this way: if you had to choose r/l between an M-60A3, or an M-1A2 product-improved Abrams, and price wasn't a consideration, and your maintenance would be the same, you'd be an IDIOT to pick the patton.

past a certain point of abstracting, there's literally zero reason to choose any 'mech other than a Mad Cat IV for your forces, and you'd have to be the king of fools to do otherwise.

It. Does. Everything.

and that's my whole 'point' with the comment.  Fasanomics wasn't real life economics, but at least it was systemized to show that scarcity was a 'a thing' in the BTU, stuff was expensive, sometimes you had to go to the cheaper alternative.

but the way you guys are using Support Points? That's Star Trek levels of post-scarcity.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #66 on: 11 November 2018, 16:02:08 »
lemme put it this way: if you had to choose r/l between an M-60A3, or an M-1A2 product-improved Abrams, and price wasn't a consideration, and your maintenance would be the same, you'd be an IDIOT to pick the patton.

past a certain point of abstracting, there's literally zero reason to choose any 'mech other than a Mad Cat IV for your forces, and you'd have to be the king of fools to do otherwise.

It. Does. Everything.

Except survive a torso destruction, or simply run without generating a wasted 10 heat points per turn.  Unlike the Abrams vs Patton comparison, 3050 clan tech is still competitive/game balanced against 3150 clan tech.

While I (and I dare assume) most people would agree the Mk IV is the all round better mech than the Mk I.. the Mk I still has its uses.  This thread wouldn't keep going this long if it were otherwise.

Quote
and that's my whole 'point' with the comment.  Fasanomics wasn't real life economics, but at least it was systemized to show that scarcity was a 'a thing' in the BTU, stuff was expensive, sometimes you had to go to the cheaper alternative.

but the way you guys are using Support Points? That's Star Trek levels of post-scarcity.

I empathize with you on principle... but the BTU became post-scarcity even before leaving the 1980s.  It's no recent phenomenon that despite the sustained artificially suppressed sizes of militaries in the BTU, new mech production (both chassis AND factories) happens at the speed of plot... so fast in fact entire TROs are full of entirely new mechs.  Over and over.  Yet still, despite mechs canonically lasting for hundreds of years despite being destroyed and repaired over and over.. all this new production doesn't result in swelling army sizes. 

It's never made sense beyond the Helm Memory Core plotline.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #67 on: 11 November 2018, 16:15:06 »
lemme put it this way: if you had to choose r/l between an M-60A3, or an M-1A2 product-improved Abrams, and price wasn't a consideration, and your maintenance would be the same, you'd be an IDIOT to pick the patton.

past a certain point of abstracting, there's literally zero reason to choose any 'mech other than a Mad Cat IV for your forces, and you'd have to be the king of fools to do otherwise.

It. Does. Everything.

and that's my whole 'point' with the comment.  Fasanomics wasn't real life economics, but at least it was systemized to show that scarcity was a 'a thing' in the BTU, stuff was expensive, sometimes you had to go to the cheaper alternative.

but the way you guys are using Support Points? That's Star Trek levels of post-scarcity.

The Availability for a Mad Cat Mk IV is significantly more difficult to pass the roll for than a regular Mad Cat, and both of those are significantly harder to find and field than lower tech alternatives.  Neither of those things are related to their nominal C-bill costs at all, or their BV, or any other measure you could care to name.

If you create a group of assumptions that illustrate your point, of course they illustrate your point.  But your assumptions are not actually things that can be assumed if your goal is to dispute the implementation of the rules.

"Scarcity" has never meant anything in BattleTech outside of fluff.  It hasn't meant C-bills, it hasn't meant spare parts, it hasn't meant the age or level of the tech.  If you want to assign an arbitrary cost to enforce scarcity for 'Mechs and whatnot in your games and campaigns, go for it.  But recognize it for what it is: arbitrary.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #68 on: 11 November 2018, 17:49:02 »
Except survive a torso destruction, or simply run without generating a wasted 10 heat points per turn.  Unlike the Abrams vs Patton comparison, 3050 clan tech is still competitive/game balanced against 3150 clan tech.

While I (and I dare assume) most people would agree the Mk IV is the all round better mech than the Mk I.. the Mk I still has its uses.  This thread wouldn't keep going this long if it were otherwise.

I empathize with you on principle... but the BTU became post-scarcity even before leaving the 1980s.  It's no recent phenomenon that despite the sustained artificially suppressed sizes of militaries in the BTU, new mech production (both chassis AND factories) happens at the speed of plot... so fast in fact entire TROs are full of entirely new mechs.  Over and over.  Yet still, despite mechs canonically lasting for hundreds of years despite being destroyed and repaired over and over.. all this new production doesn't result in swelling army sizes. 

It's never made sense beyond the Helm Memory Core plotline.

The armoring makes that torso destruction significantly less likely, so the survival is less of an issue, while the Savage Wolf's over-all a superior machine in every respect, and 'availability' is a non-factor, really because it's just about the same price thanks to the shift from a system meant to show how many techs (and tech hours) it takes to maintain becoming the replacement for the price.
There's no role the Timberwolf does better, so why would anyone take anything OTHER than the MkIV?
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #69 on: 11 November 2018, 17:52:06 »
The Mad Cat 1.0 has dramatically more interior room, so for carrying crit-intensive weapons it works better (not that it really does so in any canon configurations).
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Scotty

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #70 on: 11 November 2018, 18:15:17 »
and 'availability' is a non-factor

This is neither true nor what anyone here has been saying.  Acquiring a Clan Heavy in a non-Clan force still starts by requiring a 9+ on the Availability roll (per Campaign Ops pg. 14 in my PDF copy), versus a 6+ for any Inner Sphere Heavy.  It might actually, sincerely come down to rolling well enough to find an original Mad Cat for sale and being unable to find a Mad Cat Mk IV for sale.

You've consistently misrepresented or misinterpreted the opposing position; nobody is suggesting that a Mad Cat Mk IV and a Mad Cat are always going to be identically available.  The argument is that A) C-bill costs are stupid and B) scarcity the way you suggest it working never existed in BattleTech, because FASAnomics didn't work that way.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #71 on: 11 November 2018, 21:57:13 »
There's no role the Timberwolf does better, so why would anyone take anything OTHER than the MkIV?
Maybe there's a reason why Savage Wolves are more common in the Dark Age. They are better than the Timber Wolf, and just as if not easier to get. Because whether it is reasonable or not for XXL engined Mechs to cost less, the Sea Foxes only produce Savage Wolves. So they can sell more of them, and are more likely to have one available. It doesn't matter if the Timber Wolf is cheaper if you can't find one.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #72 on: 13 November 2018, 14:59:06 »
Honestly, the Savage Wolf might be easier to get a hold of in 3140s since the Foxes are producing it in enough numbers to sell them wide & far while the Falcons are producing standard mech versions without the Ferro-Lam and XXL (or were?).  Meanwhile the Timberwolf had not been produced in the IS since the Jihad except for hand assembled from parts somewhere in the Wolf OZ and no indication they are back to being built in the Empire.

The SP system is a very abstract system worked in with Alpha Strike and the Chaos Campaign stuff as the primary organization method in what I assume is a publisher decision to try to make the game lighter/easier/streamlined for getting in the new blood.  Always of course with the caveat that you can make your game more detailed if you wanted to do so . . . (remember that chart in Combat Ops with ability modifiers?)

As much as I love the classic Timberwolf (especially when trying to put the arms on a SW mini) . . . the Savage Wolf is generally going to hold up in combat better, even with the heat and fragility of the XXL.  The Ferro-Lam armor is just hard to beat with regular weapons and it allows the Savage Wolf can overcome based on that . . . All LBX gets ignored, so no TACs or head rattles.  LRMs?  A 6 missile hit that would strike two locations for a Timberwolf will on a Savage Wolf be reduced to 4 points to only hit 1 location.  A 12 missile hit drops to two 4 point location instead of two 5s & a 2.  SRM damage gets cut in half and they have a harder time for the TAC.  The biggest problem with the Savage Wolf is that they cannot exploit one of Clan tech's most acknowledged advantages- their energy weapons light weight & high damage simply b/c they also have higher heat.  The Savage Wolf can carry most of the same load outs as the Timberwolf though the firing pattern is going to be different b/c of the higher engine heat.

Wish we were getting more variants faster since its now supposed to be the premier mech . . . maybe an attempt to be the new flagship though the Templar might challenge that claim.  It would also be interesting to hear if the production version of the Falcon's retained prototypes made more of a impact for their faction.  Then again the Falcons have a lot of speedy heavies.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #73 on: 13 November 2018, 17:02:03 »
A 12 missile hit drops to two 4 point location instead of two 5s & a 2.

Actually, a 12 LRM spread would drop to two 4 point clusters and one 1 point cluster.  Still a solid defense.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #74 on: 13 November 2018, 17:19:27 »
Yeah, sorry I was interrupted in mid type and I guess skipped ahead when I got back to the keyboard.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #75 on: 13 November 2018, 21:39:01 »
Meanwhile the Timberwolf had not been produced in the IS since the Jihad except for hand assembled from parts somewhere in the Wolf OZ and no indication they are back to being built in the Empire. 
I thought the WiE were producing them on Arc Royal.
Maybe I'm not remembering that right, but I thought they were.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #76 on: 13 November 2018, 21:45:32 »
They were . . . IIRC the official response it was one of those things covered in the Blakist attacks on Arc Royal.  Then again we had units & ships fall through the cracks so no surprise a production line did too.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #77 on: 14 November 2018, 19:12:11 »
I thought the WiE were producing them on Arc Royal.
Maybe I'm not remembering that right, but I thought they were.

WiE produced the Mad Cat until the mid-Jihad when the production line was destroyed by the Word. (They also took out the lines for several other 'Mechs, leaving them production extinct in the Inner Sphere). After the Jihad, the Exiles lacked the infrastructure to restore the line
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #78 on: 08 December 2018, 07:58:30 »
Having lower to-hit roll than your opponent is better because you hit more often than they do. The percentages are based on the curve of 2d6 dice. I'm not Demiurge and I don't know how I can express the idea more simply than that.



Sorry about the long response, but yes, you are explaining exactly what I had in mind.

You ignore some of the nuance of the game, but basically you can pretend that the average to-hit numbers that your mech encounters are a multiplicative damage modifier, and you can pretend that the average to-hit numbers that your mech generates for enemy gunners is a multiplicative armor modifier.

Assault mechs have enormous raw firepower and heavy armor (or at least they had *better*), but they generate poor to-hit modifiers relative to their faster-moving opponents, which means that they miss a lot more and get hit a lot more, which blunts the relative advantage of all those guns and all that armor.  In the very worst cases, it means that assault mechs aren't giving you very good value.

With 3050 technology, the Timberwolf is at or very close to the optimal combination of speed, armor and firepower.  But with 3145 tech, I contend that it's possible to do much better, and the result doesn't look much like a Mk IV.

The Mad Cat 1.0 has dramatically more interior room, so for carrying crit-intensive weapons it works better (not that it really does so in any canon configurations).

Ironically, it's all the post-3050 clan tech that tends to be crit-heavy.  So the original Mad Cat is substantially more compatible with all the new goodies than its successor is.

Not that anyone cares, 3050 clan tech kills everything plenty dead.

This thread is not for discussing Demiurge's design, it's for Mad Cat MKIV versus Mad Cat.

I wasn't intending to derail, just explain average survivability/movement curves.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #79 on: 08 December 2018, 09:32:54 »
Mad Cat MK IV wins pretty handily in the availability field though.
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