Author Topic: Definition of "Battle Lance"  (Read 10380 times)

VF1LAM

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Definition of "Battle Lance"
« on: 26 August 2011, 13:47:08 »
I would like to ask anyone who knows the answer to a longtime question that has burned in the back of my mind since the '90s.

I believe that it was in the Black Thorns scenario pack that the Black Thorns are described as having a "Battle Lance" in their table of officers and equipment.

I am not familiar with the definition of a Battle Lance; I would guess that it is either a type of 'Mech lance that is kept as a reserve for larger actions, or a 'Mech lance that has no strict definition except combat efficacy, as against a Recon Lance or Fire Lance that has a more strict definition.

Can anyone provide me with the definition of a Battle Lance?  I am thinking about adding one to the various 'Mech forces I collect...
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mechwarriorgarya

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #1 on: 26 August 2011, 14:22:26 »
Essentially a lance that is formed for general combat duty would be my take on the term.
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snewsom2997

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #2 on: 26 August 2011, 14:24:49 »
The Star league Source book has the description, sarna also has it in the SLDF page.

Talz

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #3 on: 26 August 2011, 14:34:32 »
Agreed, at least some mobility is needed so I would go with a minimum running speed of 60-80 kph but also nothing too fragile which means at least no light mechs, and widely varying use of mediums depending on the era and mission profile of the company/battalion/regiment to which the lance is attached, assaults would be rare for such formations but particularly speedy assaults could work in heavier forces of a high technology level.  I would also tend towards designs with a balanced range profile for their weapons loadouts that can matchup respectably at either long or short ranges.  For instance Archers and Hunchbacks could be worked into a Battle Lance but they wouldn't be the best fit IMO.
« Last Edit: 26 August 2011, 14:43:51 by Talz »

greywolf79

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #4 on: 26 August 2011, 15:21:29 »
I have always interpreted it to be a general combat lance... So I agree with the above - decent movement 4-5 walking with a variety of weapons to cover ranges (I like to get at least 1 long range weapon (PPC/AC5), 1 medium range (LL/SRMs) and 2-3 short range (MLs/SRMs))... That is my take on it though, not sure how it might stack up against others... But a Grifin is one of my favs for this type of lance.
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VF1LAM

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #5 on: 26 August 2011, 15:26:24 »
Thank you to everyone for responding to my post.

I would like to know whether either of the following lance configurations would qualify (in your minds) as Battle Lances:

Lance #1:  Highlander, Archer, Phoenix Hawk, Wolfhound

Lance #2:  Black Knight, Crusader, Griffin, Phoenix Hawk

I have been thinking about calling either of these "Battle Lances" on the tables of officers and equipments I am preparing for some players, then adding Air Lances and/or other support elements eventually.
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Col.Hengist

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #6 on: 26 August 2011, 15:38:40 »
The first one is kind of a fire support lance with a pocket heavy and a tagger for lrms.

The second is better but i would take out the phawk. 3025 i would add a wolvie or an Orion. If you want a 4/6 assault go with a battlemaster or the ac20 charger.
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VF1LAM

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #7 on: 26 August 2011, 17:06:00 »
@Col.Hengist:  Upon looking at Sarna.net, I think I agree with you that Lance #1 is possibly more of a Fire Lance than a Battle Lance.  [Ral Partha once sold a Fire Lance consisting of two Archers, a Rifleman for anti-aircraft, and a Phoenix Hawk as spotter; Lance #1 as envisioned by me is probably not as good as the Ral Partha version, even if it can do 60 LRMs per turn.]

I think that Lance #1 will probably be named a Fire Lance anyway, just because it is a small unit who really are somewhat eccentric to begin with.

I also think that Lance #2 can be named a Battle Lance because it consists of two heavies and two mediums.

Thanks once again to everyone who has responded to my question, and we can continue to discuss the topic as time permits.
 :)
 
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Charlie Tango

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #8 on: 26 August 2011, 19:35:11 »

I would expect the"Battle Lance" to be the linchpin of a force; the primary heavy-combat force.  As far as 'Mechs. I would expect mostly Heavy 'Mechs like the Thunderbolt, Orion, and assault 'Mechs like the Stalker and Zeus
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Stormlion1

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #9 on: 26 August 2011, 19:37:08 »
Generally any combination of Heavy and meduims that don't depend primarilly on missile mechs would be my idea for a Battle Lance.
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Demos

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #10 on: 27 August 2011, 00:47:49 »
I would expect the"Battle Lance" to be the linchpin of a force; the primary heavy-combat force.  As far as 'Mechs. I would expect mostly Heavy 'Mechs like the Thunderbolt, Orion, and assault 'Mechs like the Stalker and Zeus
No, that would be the assault lance...

I see a battle lance as a medium-heavy general-purpose combat unit.

The first one is kind of a fire support lance with a pocket heavy and a tagger for lrms.
A fire support lance shuld have some more small calibre ACs or LRMs. Two mechs with a max. range of 15 hexes (1 LL each) is not really a fire-support lance. Just my 2 cents.
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Marwynn

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #11 on: 27 August 2011, 01:48:58 »
To me, a 'battle lance' is a generalist combat lance. Takes on all-comers, at any range, with a focus on staying power over heavy firepower or mobility.

Things like the Orion, T-bolt, Centurion, Guillotine and so on.

StoneGiant

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #12 on: 27 August 2011, 02:05:11 »
All lances engage in battle of some sort or the other eventually, therefore a battle lance can be whatever you want it to be.  :D

To me it's a Hunchback, an Enforcer, a Catapault, and a Wolfhound,because I like those mechs.
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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #13 on: 27 August 2011, 05:01:29 »
When I hear the words "Battle Lance", designs like Orion, Thunderbolt, Enforcer, Centurion, Crab, Starslayer comes to my mind. Basically designs in the 4/6 and 5/8 brackets that mounts large lasers and AC/10s as their main weapons.

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Col.Hengist

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #14 on: 27 August 2011, 09:26:12 »
No, that would be the assault lance...

I see a battle lance as a medium-heavy general-purpose combat unit.
A fire support lance shuld have some more small calibre ACs or LRMs. Two mechs with a max. range of 15 hexes (1 LL each) is not really a fire-support lance. Just my 2 cents.

 The first one has 3 LRM 20's in it and a gauss rifle... If that doesn't say fire support i don't know what does. As i said, it is more of a FS lance then a battle lance.
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blackjack

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #15 on: 27 August 2011, 11:11:00 »
Okay  anyone remember the original battle lance box set configuration? Was it two warhammers a marauder & a P-hawk or griffin? Cant remember. I have always viewed that a battle lance should be comprized of heavy/medium designs that can support & combine fire at all ranges with enough armor to withstand being in the heat of battle. I view them as an anchor point so that other units are able to come in support or exploit weakness's.
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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #16 on: 27 August 2011, 12:48:22 »
In the past I have run a SL-era lance of four Starslayers that I termed a "Battle Lance" because well it did most of the fighting when working with my "Strike Lance" (8/12 lights outfitted for flanking) and my "Fire Support/Command Lance" (Cyclops, Hunchback, Rifleman, Longbow)

Greywind

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #17 on: 27 August 2011, 20:47:39 »
A battle lance had a steel tip. Jousting lances tended to be blunt.

Col.Hengist

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #18 on: 28 August 2011, 01:32:38 »
A battle lance had a steel tip. Jousting lances tended to be blunt.

 unless your name is Agrimar and you're against a fella named William Thatcher.
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Drasius

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #19 on: 28 August 2011, 06:49:43 »
I'd say Medium or Heavy (with some exceptions like a Zeus or Wolfhound), has at least 1 large laser/PPC/AC-10 and is 4/6 or 5/8. Troopers would fit in here for the most part, but basically anything designed for direct combat (ie. no missile boats) that's inbetween an assault lance and a scout lance.

Examples would be;

Vindicator
Enforcer
Centurion
Crab
Wolverine
Black Knight
Orion
Cataphract
Caesar
Bushwacker
Starslayer
Watchman

Basically something that can handle midfield duties and act as support, but not have to flee when the big boys come out to do the real heavy lifting. "Pocket Assault" would perhaps be the best comparison term.


Col.Hengist

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #20 on: 28 August 2011, 09:51:09 »
nice list, i'd throw the spartan,maelstrom and dragonfire. I know your list wasn't exclusive i just wanted to add to it  :)
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Gracus

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #21 on: 28 August 2011, 11:17:58 »
I think a battle lance is one intended to trade blows with your opponent.  Other specialized lances (fire, recon, strike, assault. skirmish) have specific roles to play, but they're never intended to stand in the fire and go toe-to-toe with the enemy.  What then, separates these from assault lances?  A battle lance also has to have the maneuverability to reach the enemy, while an assault lance is either protecting an objective that the enemy must hit, or is attacking an objective the enemy must defend.  That's why it can afford to be so slow.  A battle lance can't afford that luxury. 
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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #22 on: 28 August 2011, 19:25:15 »
@VF1LAM:

As far as the Thorns were concerned, "Battle Lance" was just a name.  The other 2 lances were made up of light, fast scouts (Scout Lance), or Rose, his XO, and their bodyguards (Command Lance).  Battle Lance probably sounded better than "Everybody Else."  If the books had been written 5 or 10 years later, Battle Lance may well have been called "Grunt Lance," in the manner of another famous band of mercenaries.

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #23 on: 28 August 2011, 21:52:32 »
@VF1LAM:

As far as the Thorns were concerned, "Battle Lance" was just a name.  The other 2 lances were made up of light, fast scouts (Scout Lance), or Rose, his XO, and their bodyguards (Command Lance).  Battle Lance probably sounded better than "Everybody Else."  If the books had been written 5 or 10 years later, Battle Lance may well have been called "Grunt Lance," in the manner of another famous band of mercenaries.

This, Main Event pretty much describes it as the Thorns main sluggers

VF1LAM

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #24 on: 29 August 2011, 08:44:02 »
@Arcologist, @Cyc:  Thank you for your insightful responses.  I am currently creating tables of officers and equipment for two different combined-arms companies, each of which will have four 'Mechs, eight vehicles, and two AeroSpace Fighters.  The 'Mechs will be different for each company, but will total 240 tons.  The vehicles will probably be the same for both companies, but I am leaning toward an Armor Lance and an Artillery Lance for each company.  Then the Air Lance will be composed of two Stingray AeroSpace Fighters, which again average 60 tons, just like the 'Mechs.

It might work to just call the 'Mechs "Command Lance", followed by "Armor Lance", "Artillery Lance", and "Air Lance" for those units.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2011, 10:27:48 by VF1LAM »
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guardiandashi

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Re: Definition of "Battle Lance"
« Reply #25 on: 29 August 2011, 09:53:44 »
one unit I had that was built around clantech and had a huge number of timberwolf omni's had 3 "battle stars"
in that unit each "battle star" had 5 timberwolf omnis

as I remember it the unit had ~30 mechs total and was very heavy loaded

the command star /assault star was a mix of masakari's and dashi class omnis I want to say 2 of 1 3 of the other

then I had 1 star of gladiator (IS nick name ) omnis
1-2 stars of gargoyles (80 ton omni)
2-3 stars of timberwolves (madcats)
1 mixed star 3 twolves 2 mad 5D marauders
1 "recon" star 2 twolves (typically configured for persuit with jj ) 1 bushwacker, and 2 raptor primes (the fastest stuff I had)