Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era

[Liam's Ghost]

Premise: The year is 3125. Your nation's intelligence service has discovered evidence that the Republic of the Sphere is secretly engaged in a program to build up their WarShip fleet. Available data indicates that they may have reactivated anywhere from a dozen to fifty WarShips from a star league era naval cache that was somehow missed by the Word of Blake during the Jihad, and they have begun construction of a new corvette class, with classes of larger ships planned for later.

While your political leadership will respond diplomatically in accordance with their particular idiom, you have been tasked with designing what your nation will build in response to this obvious threat to your security.

So, keeping in mind the general industrial capabilities of the state you represent, what would you submit for construction to expand your own naval capabilities?

[Lagrange]

The Kirishima II is a Naval-C3 platform with the speed to keep range and the weapons to do damage at the longest possible ranges.

The primary weapons array of the Kirishima II are two aft-side bays with light and medium naval gauss dealing the maximum possible damage for a bay at the maximum possible range.  Complementing this are three aft-side bays each with 4 SCL/1s capable of shredding ASFs from beyond their effective range or engaging in orbital bombardment.   Closer in the fore sides feature 8 bays with twin light gauss rifles designed to deal heavy damage to any ASF getting in range.  At even shorter range, there are 4 independent screen launchers in the fore sides and aft providing the ability to control line of sight or deliver damage to entire squadrons of ASF.  At point blank range, the broadside, nose, and aft arcs are swaddled in bays with pairs of AMS and Laser AMS backed by an enhanced heat sinks array where Laser AMS can soak up small missile fire forever and AMS can handle massive peak loads.

Although the Kirishima series is not known for particularly heavy armor, an upgrade to Lamellor Ferro-Carbide, the AMS and the screen launchers all make the Kirishima II quite difficult to take down.  The real power of the Kirishima II is in it's extreme accuracy due to the use of Naval C3.  A Kirishima II can stay at extreme range, beyond the range of most enemy weapons (the light naval gauss actually outranges all other direct fire weapons when using individual ranges) with a different Miru making a short range pass each minute.  These allow the Kirishima II to connect with deeply penetrating hits consistently potentially taking down even battleships.

The extreme range and speed of the Kirishima II forces foes to fall back on capital missiles (which the AMS can soak quite a few of), ASF (which are subject to SCL fire before they can fire back), and assault dropships (which are subject to the punishing fire of the Naval gauss weapons bays).

Code: [Select]

Kirishima II Warship
Mass: 790,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 790,000
Battle Value: 81,320
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-X
Cost: 20,342,191,600 C-bills

Fuel: 7,450 tons (18,625)
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Sail Integrity: 5
KF Drive Integrity: 17
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 75

Armor
    Nose: 142
    Fore Sides: 225/225
    Aft Sides: 250/250
    Aft: 141

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Reinforced Repair Facility (800)1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            6 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 7:  Cargo (9354.5 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,120 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (760 tons),
    240 rounds of Medium N-Gauss ammunition (96 tons),
    720 rounds of Light N-Gauss ammunition (144 tons),
    2,560 rounds of Light Gauss Rifle ammunition (160 tons),
    720 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (7,200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 3
Grav Decks: 2 (100 m, 130 m)
Escape Pods: 25
Life Boats: 25
Crew:  46 officers, 169 enlisted/non-rated, 59 gunners, 34 bay personnel, 120 passengers, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Satellite Imager (Hyperspectral Imager)
    1 Satellite Imager (Look-Down Radar)
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Space Mine Dispenser
    1 Naval C3
    1 Satellite Imager (Infrared Imager)
1,185 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (80 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (60 Heat)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
RBS/LBS (80 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (372 Heat)
3 Naval Gauss (Light)                      42   70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Gauss
    1 Naval Gauss (Medium)
    Light N-Gauss Ammo (180 shots)
    Medium N-Gauss Ammo (60 shots)
3 Naval Gauss (Light)                      42   70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Gauss
    1 Naval Gauss (Medium)
    Light N-Gauss Ammo (180 shots)
    Medium N-Gauss Ammo (60 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (104 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)

As a companion the Miru dropship was designed as the perfect Naval C3 spotter for the Kirishima II.  The Miru is little more than an engine, armor, and an electronics suite designed to direct fire on an enemy, all in a package small enough that capital weapons have difficulty targeting and with speeds that leave heavy ASF behind and damage the structure of medium ASF keeping up. 

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Miru Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 400 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 400
Battle Value: 7,254
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 244,461,392 C-bills

Fuel: 16 tons (1,120)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 35
Structural Integrity: 38

Armor
    Nose: 715
    Sides: 715/715
    Aft: 715

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (1.0 tons)        1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 4 enlisted/non-rated

Notes: Mounts 136.5 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:     Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat) Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Naval C3 & Beagle Active Probe

The Kirishima II has additional cargo storage compared to the Kirishima, enabling it to carry spare Miru's as cargo.  Normally warships carrying dropships as cargo (which is apparently legal) cannot launch them. They could however be loaded into the reinforced repair bay and launched directly into space via the repair bay.  The process of loading and unloading them is however cumbersome since the cargo bay must be flushed to vacuum and space suited crew must slowly pull a Miru in or out of storage.  Note that the repair bay itself can also carry a couple Miru.  Launching times from repair bays are not defined as far as I know.

Edits: a few updates to nail down Miru-as-cargo rules and downgraded to just 3 dropcollars as per the original Kirishima, saving some cost.

[Retry]

Oh, that Miru is immensely clever.

[Lagrange]

Oh, that Miru is immensely clever.

Thanks :-)

Honestly, it's about the only economical way to use Naval C3 on a dropship that I've found.

[FastConcentrate8]

When I get my main computer back, I have an idea for a FedSuns Flagship but unfortunately can't run MML on my new computer. A while back, Tyler Jorgenson built me a Super Carrier in a previous challenge and I build a hybrid tech Dark Age version of it modified for FedSuns Air Wings. She can Throw 40 Fighters out in a single Full Cat Launch and carry a large battlegroup of Pocket Droppers with 10 docking collars (she can C3N Link to some of them too) and is well protected by a boat load of AMS and Screen Launchers.

It's very expensive, but very deadly carrier that can overwhelm most target's air defenses.

[monbvol]

Thanks :-)

Honestly, it's about the only economical way to use Naval C3 on a dropship that I've found.

Since it is a Dropship I would give it a little more fuel and cargo so it can actually get itself where it needs to be without the crew suffocating and have fuel left to actually engage in a protracted battle.

[Daryk]

I agree with Monbvol... it needs more fuel...

[Lagrange]

A side note: the reason why it's experimental tech is the Naval C3 which (I believe) has never been productionized and is DC-only tech.  Naval Gauss, the Kirishima backbone (Fuel, SI, thrust), and screen launchers were all DC-first tech.  The AMS/Light gauss/LAMS are not, but as battlemech scale weapons I figure there's plausibly some way to source as they are in general production.

Since it is a Dropship I would give it a little more fuel and cargo so it can actually get itself where it needs to be without the crew suffocating and have fuel left to actually engage in a protracted battle.

I agree with Monbvol... it needs more fuel...

Does it? In comparison to an ASF it has a strategic burn of 5 days and cargo for life support for 20 days.  At tactical scales it has about twice the fuel of typical fighters already, and it's mission profile says it needs to stay within 60 hexes (Naval C3 range) of a ship with guns (and more fuel).  That's a pretty tight leash---ASF with half the fuel often operate on longer range missions.

Coming at it another way, how much fuel is the right amount, and why?

...a Super Carrier...

Of late, I've been finding dropship based carriers more compelling.  You get more doors per transport bay, a higher tactical speed, and via jump circuits a higher strategic speed.   Still, there's no doubt that people notice when a Thera jumps in.

[Daryk]

Twice fighter fuel at tactical scale is still WAY low to operate with WarShips...

[monbvol]

Unlike an ASF, a Dropship is going to be expected to be doing it's job for weeks.

[Daryk]

Exactly!  Small Craft can get away with a single digit multiple of ASF fuel, but DropShips?  Not so much...

[Lagrange]

Unlike an ASF, a Dropship is going to be expected to be doing it's job for weeks.

I'm not really following why this isn't possible.  The primary consumable is fuel which could be topped up with the use of a refueling drogue for a minute.  The secondary consumables are spare parts and lifesupport consumables, but you could send around a smallcraft to connect and transfer them once a week.

Twice fighter fuel at tactical scale is still WAY low to operate with WarShips...

I'm not really following why.  ASF and smallcraft operate with WarShips despite having lower fuel reserves.  The Miru can't be recovered like an ASF or smallcraft, but it has a built-in crew for maintenance and occasional supply deliveries seems adequate. 

What's the scenario where you want to use the Miru but can't because the fuel is inadequate?  It has no meaningful missions far away from the Kirishima II.

[Daryk]

WarShips are designed for long haul missions, like a chase.  If you have less fuel than the quarry, it'll escape.

[Cannonshop]

Let's remember the typical Battletech^tm  Thought process here;

The Miryu is a dropship, Yes?  If it can go from the jump point to the planet's orbit on its fuel reserves, 99% of IS military planners will say it has enough fuel.

After all, engagements have to happen over the planet, interception in deep space is "Too Hard" (Difficult) to reliably plan for, so why plan for it?

[Lagrange]

WarShips are designed for long haul missions, like a chase.  If you have less fuel than the quarry, it'll escape.

First of all, I was wrong about the refueling drogue---it only works for ASF/smallcraft apparently.

Second, there's a three step maneuver to handle this. 

• A smallcraft departs the warship with supplies.
• The smallcraft and Miru achieve zero relative velocity with the smallcraft grappling (per TO page 199) to transfer supplies / fuel for a few minutes.
• The smallcraft+Miru accelerate faster than the Kirishima II to catch up.

 
This is viable, although somewhat more annoying than I was imagining.  Given that, I decided to ditch the escape pod, up the cargo to 1 ton and the fuel to 16 tons.   This is 8 burn-days of fuel which should reduce the instances of the somewhat-annoying maneuver. 

Addresses the concern?

Edit:

The Miryu is a dropship, Yes?  If it can go from the jump point to the planet's orbit on its fuel reserves, 99% of IS military planners will say it has enough fuel.

Well, with the modification it's certainly possible to do a zenith/terra transit with a small coast a bit in the middle. 

[Liam's Ghost]

First of all, I was wrong about the refueling drogue---it only works for ASF/smallcraft apparently.

Large craft can dock with each other at a bay door or docking collar and transfer fuel that way. Successfully docking in that manner takes thirty minutes, and assuming a standard deck crew (no exoskeletons doing the work) and drawing from a portion of the cargo bay sectioned off as liquid cargo, you can transfer two tons of fuel per minute. You could probably draw directly from a ship's fuel tanks, but the rules don't specifically mention it.

(Docking two ships together is covered in Strategic Operations, but transferring cargo between them is covered in Campaign operations)

Of course, if a GM wanted to be a hardass, they might insist that the ship must carry a dedicated liquid (or insulated) cargo bay to actually refuel another ship, but in universe it's generally been assumed that even if a ship needs to carry extra fuel in the cargo bays, the necessary temporary equipment can just be installed in a standard cargo bay.

[Lagrange]

Large craft can dock with each other at a bay door or docking collar and transfer fuel that way.

Unfortunately, does not work in the pursuit scenario because you cannot dock under thrust.

[Dragon Cat]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,40981.msg946150.html#msg946150

I humbly submit the Whirlwind II Destroyer I designed with Corsair_SG a while ago for my AU with some modified fluff for House Davion in the DA era.

Overview
When House Davion restarted its WarShip program they knew they could not rebuild the Avalon production line the ship was too large, required a large crew and needed a capital missile supply line to supply it. House Davion turned to their Dark Age arms dealer for the answer - enter Clan Sea Fox - always looking to turn a profit the Foxes were willing to trade to House Davion the Whirlwind-class Destroyer a class of WarShip with House Davion heritage in the Davion-class Destroyer.

The Whirlwind itself was too vulnerable a design to put straight into production, it lacked sufficient anti-fighter and defences so a variety of conventional missiles, extended range lasers and rotary autocannons were added along with a defence suite of anti-missile systems and screen launchers. Finally the ship was fully equipped with a wing of aerospace fighters, small craft and battle armoured marines. All the modifications added two full years to the development of the WarShip, it was planned that ten WarShips per March would be produced.

[Hellraiser]

So, a good long while ago I had an idea for rebuilding post Jihad.

One of the basic premises was that while each faction had their own "major" warship yards, the one thing in common that all nations had was access to some portion of the original 5 Jumpships from DS/JS.

Assuming each shipyard didn't have some capacity massively larger than those 5 Jumpships, I went about coming up with a "basic" fleet concept that could be built on.

Scout - 90KT
Merchant - 120KT
Invader - 152KT
Starlord - 274KT
Monolith - 430KT

Convert each type of yard over to the following:

Hunter-LFB - 95KT
Tracker (New Block-II variant)  -  120KT
Invader-C  -  152KT    (Still need a basic JS for many things & adding Clan Sealant tech is a nice basic upgrade along w/ c-ERLLs)
Fox Class Corvette  (New Block-II variant)  -  240KT
New Light Destroyer/Carrier  (See below)  -  430KT 


I pulled these stats from my thread from a decade ago.

Code: [Select]

                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Monolisk Class Destroyer
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3132
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              430,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            558 meters
Sail Diameter:     998 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
    4 Maelstrom AR10 Launcher
   20 Grizzard Gauss Rifle
   60 Thunderbolt-12 Large Pulse Laser
   40 McArthur AMS
   20 Tronel-45 Series NL45
    8 Orient-30 Series NAC/30
    4 Mirage Systems Screen Launcher
   42 Newhart ER Large Laser
Manufacturer:   FedSuns, LyrCom, Republic
  Location:     Any Monlith Shipyard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Monolisk Class Destroyer
Mass:              430,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       77,400.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 10)               194,575.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                               4,300.00
Jump Sail (Detachable): (Integrity = 4)                                 52.00
Structural Integrity: 110                                           47,300.00
Total Heat Sinks:    2,438 Single                                    2,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   4,386.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              1,075.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                 50.00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Ferro-carbide  (823 total armor pts)                      946.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                120
   Fore-Left/Right:                  150/150
   Aft-Left/Right:                   150/150
   Aft:                                 103

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (8 ) with 1 door                                  1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (12) with 2 doors                                1,800.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,300.00
   Bay 3:  Small Craft (6) with 1 door                               1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 4:  Fighters (8 ) with 1 door                                  1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 5:  Fighters (12) with 2 doors                                1,800.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,300.00
   Bay 6:  Small Craft (6) with 1 door                               1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00

DropShip Capacity:  9 Docking Hardpoints                             9,000.00
Grav Deck #1:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Grav Deck #2:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Grav Deck #3:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Life Boats:  40 (7 tons each)                                          280.00
Escape Pods:  40 (7 tons each)                                         280.00

Crew and Passengers:
     34 Officers (34 minimum)                                          340.00
     97 Crew (97 minimum)                                              679.00
     63 Gunners (63 minimum)                                           441.00
      5 1st Class Passengers                                            50.00
     10 2nd Class Passengers                                            70.00
    140 Steerage Passengers                                            700.00
     94 Marines                                                        470.00
     16 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        112.00
    140 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 AR10 (8 KW, 6 WS, 6 B)   Nose         *      *      *      *   40  1,320.00
3 Gauss Rifle(48 rounds)   Nose     5(45)  5(45)  5(45)     --    3     51.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     5(45)  5(45)     --     --   50     35.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         Nose        --     --     --     --   10     25.00
5 NL45                     FL/R        23     23     23     23  700  9,000.00
2 NAC/30(40 rounds)        FL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14,064.00
1 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)FL/R        --     --     --     --   20    480.00
7 ER Large Laser           FL/R     6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
7 Gauss Rifle(112 rounds)  L/RBS  11(105)11(105)11(105)     --   14    238.00
7 ER Large Laser           L/RBS    6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         L/RBS       --     --     --     --   20     50.00
5 NL45                     AL/R        23     23     23     23  700  9,000.00
2 NAC/30(40 rounds)        AL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14,064.00
1 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)AL/R        --     --     --     --   20    480.00
7 ER Large Laser           AL/R     6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
2 AR10 (8 KW, 6 WS, 6 B)   Aft          *      *      *      *   40  1,320.00
3 Gauss Rifle(48 rounds)   Aft      5(45)  5(45)  5(45)     --    3     51.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      5(45)  5(45)     --     --   50     35.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         Aft         --     --     --     --   10     25.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 3,484     430,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        28,497,304,400 C-Bills
Battle Value:      95,442
Cost per BV:       298,582.43
Weapon Value:      62,610 (Ratio = .66)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 3,082;  MRV = 2,887;  LRV = 1,872;  ERV = 681
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 358,367
                   (108,203 Structure, 126,808 Life Support, 123,356 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 366,219  (102% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

My current PC no longer has a design program on it, otherwise I'd tweak the stats a bit, but over all I think it gets the idea across.

I like the idea of working w/ what you've got & trying to both rebuild a navy while not losing the capacity to move DS around at the expense of a more combat oriented selection of ships.

Each house still has their "signature" heavy capital ships for some individuality.

[Gorgon]

Avanti-class Corvette (Duchy of Tamarind-Abbey)


News of the Republic of the Sphere's dramatic naval expansion program caught the ducal government on Tamarindby surprise. The Duchy had struggled to develop a domestic defense industry to help secure its independence followingthe turmoil of the Jihad. Of highest priority had been the creation and expansion of the first armed forces in the Duchy's history, especially the ground forces. What Aerospace forces existed were mostly reliant on former FWLN and FWLM fighters and dropships and what equipment could be bought on the open market. Technicron Manufacturing, formerly the producers of the Free World's League first new warshipclass in centuries, had turned their attention wholly to the production of Invader-class jumpships to profit from the post-war economic recovery.

So by 3125, the Armed Forces of the Duchy of Tamarind-Abbey and Technicron had to start from scratch, if they wanted to compete in the nascent arms race. Given the financial and industrial resources of the Duchy, the navy decided to focus on the development of a corvette-sized vessel, that could operate as the heart of a task force comprised of ASF and combat dropships. A vessel the size of the former Impavido-class was unfortunately out of the question for the time being. Technicron, however, was optimistic that they could develop a vessel fitting the desired specifications and put itinto production much faster than a larger design.

The new Avanti-class corvette was designed with survivability in mind: it was to be robust and equipped to support conventional aerospace forces without having to dive right into close combat slugging matches with anything more capable than itself. Long range fire power, backed up by advanced electronics and protected by ample anti-fighter and anti-missile defenses formed the corner stone of the Avanti's design.

The biggest hurdle during the construction process of the lead ship - TANS Avanti - proved to be the transit drives. Technicron had ample experience with designing, building and maintaining jump cores and sails, but even during the naval renaissance of the FWLN the transit drives of the Impavido had been designed and built by other companies with closer ties to the Word of Blake. Therefore, the design team opted for smaller, less capable drives that would - hopefully - prove easier to built. Still, the transit drives suffered multiple delays and set-backs, significantly prolonging the production of the Avanti.

Code: [Select]

Avanti Corvette
Mass: 240,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 240,000
Battle Value: 77,147
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 17,577,400,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 7
Heat Sinks: 760 (1520)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 42
    Fore Sides: 38/38
    Aft Sides: 38/38
    Aft: 28

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (8)         4 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (8825.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    1,440 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (4 tons),
    60 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (150 tons),
    40 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (40 tons),
    160 rounds of Piranha ammunition (430 tons),
    1,200 rounds of LB 20-X Cluster ammunition (6 tons),
    80 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (1.6 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (78 m, 78 m)
Escape Pods: 24
Life Boats: 24
Crew:  48 officers, 57 enlisted/non-rated, 50 gunners, 76 bay personnel, 20 passengers, 40 BA marines       

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    240 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (314 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
FRS/FLS (110 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (40 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  40   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (20 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (10 shots)
RBS/LBS (490 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
ARS/ALS (70 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (40 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (10 shots)
Aft (354 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  40   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (20 shots)
   

Note:
So like the Duchy I'm new to this whole warship thing. This is, in fact, my first ever warship, so any feedback is very welcome. I tried to use canon ships and the discussion around them as a guideline. But I'm not sure if the weapons and their arrangement makes any sense or if the anti-fighter and anti missile weapons are too much or too little.

I envision the PIranhas to be mostly used in an AA capability, with the LB-20Xs as close-in defense. Killer Whales will be used as stand-off anti ship weapons. The NL-45 are dual-use: snipe dropships or warships or switch to anti-fighter-mode as needed. If things go sideways or a target of opportunity presents itself, the dual NAC-30s in the broadside will hopefully end a fight before the Avanti gets blown up.

[Daryk]

Looks good to me!  Enough NL-45s, AMS... plenty of goodness there! :)

[Smegish]

Gorgon: Armour is a touch thin, but can't be helped with a ship that size without going with Ferro-Carbide or Lemellor F-C armour. Other than that the L-F batteries make it a VERY expensive ship for it's size, but the strategic manoeuvrability is nice to have.

Centrella-class Frigate (Faction should be obvious)

Upon hearing of the Republic's plans for rearmament, the Magistracy decided it needed a fleet of its own to deal with the inevitable build-up from the various parts of the former Free Worlds League. The chance of some export sales to it's Capellan allies would help alleviate the costs of the initial production setup.

In order to both minimise the strain on the economy and not appear to be an existential threat to it's neighbours - that might cause them to attack the Magistracy before the fleet was strong enough to repel them - the Centrella was kept to a more moderate size then some designs that are crossing the desks of the Inner Sphere leadership. At only 350 kilotons the Centrella is not intended to go charging off into the heart of the enemy, but instead maintain a steady rate of fire from long range with it's battery of twelve Heavy NPPCs and twenty-eight Class-45 Naval Lasers. A substantial battery of PPCs protect the ship from fighters and smaller craft, and a plethora of Laser AMS should give teh vessel ample defence against missile strikes.

Two of the major cost-saving measures were the decision not to mount Lithium-Fusion batteries, and also installing a smaller sub-light drive than many might expect in a ship this size, limiting it's acceleration to a mere 2.5G. However these choices did mean that the ship comes in at just slightly more than 9 Billion C-Bills, significantly cheaper than many other designs currently under construction elsewhere allowing the smaller Magistracy economy the ability to keep up with the ship numbers of it's neighbours without bankrupting the nation. This has been helped by the announcement of a export sales as well as a licence to build the Centrella in the Confederation, though the details of exactly how many of the twenty ships ordered will be built in Canopian yards rather than Capellan ones have not yet been finalized.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $9,115,222,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 46,380

Mass: 350,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
12 Naval PPC Heavy
40 LAMS (IS)
48 PPC
28 Naval Laser 45

Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Mass: 350,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 63,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 875.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (9 Integrity) 158,375.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 48.00
Structural Integrity: 70 24,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2710(5420) Double 2,311.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 532 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 490.00
Fore: 80
Fore-Left/Right: 93/93
Aft-Left/Right: 93/93
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 0 0.00
Life Boats: 50 350.00

Crew And Passengers:
30 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 210.00
85 Crew in Steerage Quarters 425.00
60 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 300.00
54 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
50 2nd Class Passengers 350.00
90 Steerage Passengers 450.00

Bay #1 Small Craft (6) - 1 Door
Bay #2 Fighters (12) - 2 Doors
Bay #3 Cargo (25,040 tons) - 2 Doors

490 Tons of Lamellor Ferro-Carbide Armour
Large Naval Comms-Scanner Suite

Nose:

2 x 5 LAMS
2 x 2 NL/45

FL/FR:

3 x 4 PPC
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

LBS/RBS:

2 x 5 LAMS
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

AR/AL:

3 x 4 PPC
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

Aft:

2 x 5 LAMS

[idea weenie]

This is viable, although somewhat more annoying than I was imagining.  Given that, I decided to ditch the escape pod, up the cargo to 1 ton and the fuel to 16 tons.   This is 8 burn-days of fuel which should reduce the instances of the somewhat-annoying maneuver. 

I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.

Gorgon: Armour is a touch thin, but can't be helped with a ship that size without going with Ferro-Carbide or Lemellor F-C armour. Other than that the L-F batteries make it a VERY expensive ship for it's size, but the strategic manoeuvrability is nice to have.

Centrella-class Frigate (Faction should be obvious)

Upon hearing of the Republic's plans for rearmament, the Magistracy decided it needed a fleet of its own to deal with the inevitable build-up from the various parts of the former Free Worlds League. The chance of some export sales to it's Capellan allies would help alleviate the costs of the initial production setup.

In order to both minimise the strain on the economy and not appear to be an existential threat to it's neighbours - that might cause them to attack the Magistracy before the fleet was strong enough to repel them - the Centrella was kept to a more moderate size then some designs that are crossing the desks of the Inner Sphere leadership. At only 350 kilotons the Centrella is not intended to go charging off into the heart of the enemy, but instead maintain a steady rate of fire from long range with it's battery of twelve Heavy NPPCs and twenty-eight Class-45 Naval Lasers. A substantial battery of PPCs protect the ship from fighters and smaller craft, and a plethora of Laser AMS should give teh vessel ample defence against missile strikes.

Two of the major cost-saving measures were the decision not to mount Lithium-Fusion batteries, and also installing a smaller sub-light drive than many might expect in a ship this size, limiting it's acceleration to a mere 2.5G. However these choices did mean that the ship comes in at just slightly more than 9 Billion C-Bills, significantly cheaper than many other designs currently under construction elsewhere allowing the smaller Magistracy economy the ability to keep up with the ship numbers of it's neighbours without bankrupting the nation. This has been helped by the announcement of a export sales as well as a licence to build the Centrella in the Confederation, though the details of exactly how many of the twenty ships ordered will be built in Canopian yards rather than Capellan ones have not yet been finalized.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $9,115,222,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 46,380
Mass: 350,000


Did a cost study on the Centrella by increasing its mass to 700 ktons while keeping all else the same.  This raises the cost from ~9.1 billion to ~10.7 billion, and allows for an additional ~100 ktons cargo room.

This might be a future idea to hide larger hulls under the same design specifications (fuel capacity, weapons loadout, armor tonnage, etc), but have plenty of room for future expansion.  In the meantime this larger design can serve as flagship or critical materials transport.

The later upgrades would involve moving around the Naval Lasers to make room for an additional 22 HNPPC, for a cost of less than half a billion more.  The doubled hull size would also allow adding another 490 tons of armor for another 49 million in cost, almost doubling the protection.  It will wind up needing 41 officers and 259 crew, leaving only enough room for 15 passengers.

[monbvol]

I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.

You indeed cannot use Small Craft bays for Dropships.

The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.

[Smegish]

Idea weenie: on the one hand, I guess I forgot the detail that the Magistracy lacks a yard of sufficient size to build a 700kt ship, and building it would put the cost of the project at the very limits of what the Canopians could build, leaving no wiggle room for the inevitable cost overruns.

On the other hand, the larger more powerful ship is a Confederation design I haven't finished yet. 

[Retry]

You indeed cannot use Small Craft bays for Dropships.

The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.

I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.

I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.

400 ton Dropships are small enough that Cap weapons take the huge +5 to-hit penalty and subcaps take +3, like fighters and small craft, that's what makes the design so clever.  Making it just 100 tons heavier negates that boon.  At that point you may as well go all out and make it a 10k ton gunship with a C3 system attached.

[Lagrange]

The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.

I'm not feeling the motivation here.  Zenith to planet transit just isn't a compelling mission profile for a Miru since it's only a valuable design in the presence of something with a big gun and Naval C3. Daryk's pursuit mission seems like a valid profile to be concerned with, and we have a solution to that.  Is there another valid mission profile here? 

I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.

Well, you could carry a couple in a reinforced repair bay.  The disadvantage here is that there is no published deployment time.  You could also carry the dropships in a cargo bay, flush the atmosphere from the cargo bay, and then slowly (and carefully) have a crew move them out of the bay at zero G.  The point of having all 5 dropship hardpoints is that you can jump directly into a combat zone ready to go, not that you must.

I tweaked the Kirishima II design to have the above explicitly rather than the vague 5 doors to the cargo bay.

400 ton Dropships are small enough that Cap weapons take the huge +5 to-hit penalty and subcaps take +3, like fighters and small craft, that's what makes the design so clever.  Making it just 100 tons heavier negates that boon.  At that point you may as well go all out and make it a 10k ton gunship with a C3 system attached.

Yeah, exactly---a warship destroyer rather than a (pocket) warship.

[Daryk]

I've been reading up on the Electronic Warfare rules... it seems to be worth it to install both an Active Probe and an ECM Suite in Small Craft.  It's a shame you can only have one Probe, though...

[Cannonshop]

I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.


Did a cost study on the Centrella by increasing its mass to 700 ktons while keeping all else the same.  This raises the cost from ~9.1 billion to ~10.7 billion, and allows for an additional ~100 ktons cargo room.

This might be a future idea to hide larger hulls under the same design specifications (fuel capacity, weapons loadout, armor tonnage, etc), but have plenty of room for future expansion.  In the meantime this larger design can serve as flagship or critical materials transport.

The later upgrades would involve moving around the Naval Lasers to make room for an additional 22 HNPPC, for a cost of less than half a billion more.  The doubled hull size would also allow adding another 490 tons of armor for another 49 million in cost, almost doubling the protection.  It will wind up needing 41 officers and 259 crew, leaving only enough room for 15 passengers.

That extra cargo space might actually be important and/or useful, particularly for the flagship role, since it lets you carry enough schleppage to refuel other units in its group, carry spare ammunition, spare parts...

Main thing I'm seeing thus far in this challenge, is everyone's doing combat units, nobody's doing the things that actually make your Navy a Navy instead of a collection of expensive collectibles.

Particularly given the state of things at the start of this as posited by the OP.

What is actually needed?

1. The navy needs the ability to support itself on deployment.  This is first-and-foremost, given the lack of shipyard spaces and their concentration in vulnerable locations especially.  Flag vessels need to be able to support the non-flag vessels, because for a lot of the time, they're not going to be lingering next to a shipyard location where repairs and restocking can be done.

2. Fuel, Charging and Communications links, logistics vessels, etc. etc. etc-your patrol radius is decided by how quickly fuel and spare parts can arrive, or by how long you can run on what you're carrying.  I was kind of tongue-in-cheek on the Miru's lack of fuel, but it's a serious problem for anything that isn't an immediate local defense unit.  The fuel on a Warship is also the fuel they feed their fighters, small craft, or escort dropships.  Supplies carried as cargo aren't just there for THAT ship, they're there for the lesser units in that ship's escort group, including fighters and small craft, and assault dropships.

In the immediate situation, I see a few different approaches, but the one I'd suggest, is bulking up your production of things like portable yard facilities, charging stations, and supply jumpships first, with medium weight duration ships that may not have "AAAALLLL THE FIREPOWER!!!!" but can definitely stay in motion, and keep their support elements in motion as well.

Basically, I'd invest in Trackers and supply/logistics stations with assault dropships as supplementary, and only after I've got decent amounts of coverage within my domestic borders, put some investment into building bigger ships, probably starting with 'Destroyer Leaders' and finishing on a medium weight Cruiser design that can be made cheaper than the ornate battleships the neighbors plowed their tax funds into.

but then, I look at it a bit like an economist-a navy you can't keep manned, fueled and fed, is a navy you can't use, likewise for a navy that can't absorb losses, because no matter HOW big you build it, no warship is invulnerable.  If I lose a Tracker damaging the hell out of a Leviathan III, then that Levi has to retire to get repaired, and it'll cost as much as TWO trackers, that can cover more systems more efficiently, across a broader set of requirements than "Flagship for an invasion of a planet".

Second thing, is 'Fleet in being'.  This forces your opponent to counter you, even if you shy away from direct confrontation-he's got to account for your fleet striking somewhere he's vulnerable while his ubar warship is striking at a single system.

(I actually demonstrated this in the FC'62 game by breaking up ordinary jumpship groups and scattering them around-it stopped the massive all-Leviathans-invasion-fleets of another player and forced him to move through unclaimed space one hex at a time...to deal with a single ship.  This has been shown to work with real life forces in the past-if they know theres someone lurking in the back field, they tend to move slower.)

Third is consolidation.  This is why communications is so important.   The hypothetical Lone Leviathan can be caught out by arriving task forces and he has to face multiple opponents, possibly from multiple directions, simultaneously (or near enough).

Or, those ships can be busy flattening his logistical tail, striking his industrial base, and kllling everything he doesn't have the Ubar-Warship to defend.

Point being, in a single engagement, bigger might be better, but smaller is more likely to win actual wars.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Code: [Select]

Erinace (Escort)
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 34,900 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 34,900
Battle Value: 45,129
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 4,023,930,400 C-bills

Fuel: 200 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 864 (1728)
Structural Integrity: 209

Armor
    Nose: 3011
    Sides: 3005/3005
    Aft: 3004

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 7:  BattleArmor (CS) (2)    1 Door   
    Bay 8:  Cargo (212.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 10
Crew:  5 officers, 6 enlisted/non-rated, 12 gunners, 24 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 752 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                 Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)           Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Fwd (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Aft (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
Aft (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser


I think that it's somewhat weird, but what about this as the C3 picket ship? It could cut the nuclear missiles while engage some ASFs, and it's armor is hard enough to withstand several volley of capital weapon battery. I suppose it to be the interceptor that works closely with the warships and/or space stations so I don't care for the quarters and spare fuel much, and the crews are expected to be live in the mothership for the most time on their guard duty instead.

Code: [Select]

Erinace (Avenger)
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 34,900 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 34,900
Battle Value: 83,009
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 4,610,978,400 C-bills

Fuel: 200 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 1419 (2838)
Structural Integrity: 184

Armor
    Nose: 2651
    Sides: 2645/2645
    Aft: 2645

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (267.0 tons)      3 Doors   

Ammunition:
    60 rounds of AC/10 ammunition (6 tons),
    2,760 rounds of Ultra AC/20 ammunition (6 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 5
Crew:  7 officers, 4 enlisted/non-rated, 24 gunners

Notes: Mounts 662 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                          Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                    Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
RS/LS Fwd (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
RS/LS Aft (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
Aft (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)


A slightly fragile variant, this is exists to rush through enemy line alongside the normal models and attack the enemy warship. It lacks its own defensive tools so it needs to be stay with its sisters all the times.

[Daryk]

I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

[Hellraiser]

I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

Where is CS calling for collarless?

I see the post about spreading your navy around to have a "More Numerous" navy v/s a "Big Ship" navy, but I don't see anything about collars.  (I might be blind)

I honestly have issues w/ the way C-Bills work in Aerotech, I'm not sure I buy into the Fasanomics of the calculations.

I can fully get behind a "smaller/zerg it" navy that can deploy in many areas v/s a Leviathan navy. 

Not sure I buy into collarless unless we are somehow forced to use C-Bills & limited by them.  Otherwise I'd think Raw Mass in Materials & size/capacity of the shipyard is by far the bigger factor.

[Daryk]

The cost argument he makes sings collarless to me.  JumpShips are a WAY cheaper way to move DropShips around.

[Daryk]

Dang it, and I totally forgot to say I've been reading up on Mobile HPGs... it seems it might be cheaper (and safer) to mount a Ground Mobile (12 ton) one on an ASF than build a Mobile (50 ton) one into a WarShip, though a JumpShip mounted one might make sense.  At that cost point, the unit type final multiplier really matters, not to mention the "no weapons fire" restriction when getting a message out.  It really makes me consider if you could mount one on a missile and recover it later.  I think David Drake might have had a similar concept in his RCN universe.

For reference:
ASF: x(1+Tonnage/200)
Small Craft: x(1+Tonnage/50)
JumpShips: x1.25
WarShips: x2
Space Stations: x5
Spheroid DropShips: x28
Aerodyne DropShips: x36 (!)

[Hellraiser]

Dang it, and I totally forgot to say I've been reading up on Mobile HPGs... it seems it might be cheaper (and safer) to mount a Ground Mobile (12 ton) one on an ASF than build a Mobile (50 ton) one into a WarShip, though a JumpShip mounted one might make sense.  At that cost point, the unit type final multiplier really matters, not to mention the "no weapons fire" restriction when getting a message out.  It really makes me consider if you could mount one on a missile and recover it later.  I think David Drake might have had a similar concept in his RCN universe.

For reference:
ASF: x(1+Tonnage/200)
Small Craft: x(1+Tonnage/50)
JumpShips: x1.25
WarShips: x2
Space Stations: x5
Spheroid DropShips: x28
Aerodyne DropShips: x36 (!)

Hmm, At the very least, its a "lower" degree of "customization" to use an Omnifighter for this task and allows for moving it around based on mission needs for the wing.
But in turn, I'm not sure how C-Bill costs come into play when Fighter Tonnage can vary from Omni to Omni, very odd

I'd probably go w/ a Jumpship myself.
Something like the Hunter w/ LFB & MHPG is a great scout ship & a couple in a major capital fleet can handle all the messages you need.


EDIT:   Just remembered the Omni cost is +25%
So at that rate a 25 ton OF matches Jumpship & only 20 ton would beat it.
Otherwise its 45T or smaller standard ASF.

Yeah, I'm sticking w/ JS (Hunter) concept.

[Daryk]

I think the good news is that AMS aren't technically "weapons", so you can still fend off some attacks even while transmitting or receiving.  A JumpShip might be more operationally flexible, but buying a whole other jump core might cancel any cost savings from doing it with something smaller.

[Hellraiser]

I was more pointing out that as part of an entire Navy, the Hunter-LFB/HPG concept works well.

It's a scout ship all by itself, or, as part of a taskforce its the lead ship to recon the system before the fleet jumps in.

And has the same modifier as a Corsair ASF.

Anything smaller as an ASF will likely be very slow for it's size/frame.

[Daryk]

No doubt!  You need 12 tons just for the HPG.

[Hellraiser]

I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.

Well, you could carry a couple in a reinforced repair bay.  The disadvantage here is that there is no published deployment time.  You could also carry the dropships in a cargo bay, flush the atmosphere from the cargo bay, and then slowly (and carefully) have a crew move them out of the bay at zero G.  The point of having all 5 dropship hardpoints is that you can jump directly into a combat zone ready to go, not that you must.

Isn't there a rule that you can't jump if something w/ a Docking Collar is NOT attached to a Docking Hardpoint?

I feel like there is something about not cramming dropships into cargo bays for a Jump.

[Daryk]

That sounds familiar, but I can't place it off the top of my head.

[Liam's Ghost]

Isn't there a rule that you can't jump if something w/ a Docking Collar is NOT attached to a Docking Hardpoint?

Yes. If the dropship is equipped with a modern docking collar and associated KF-boom, then it has to connected the docking collar of the parent ship to be transported via jumping.

Getting around that purely by the rules would probably require a retrotech design, which would create other rules related nonsensicality.

However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.

[Hellraiser]

However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.

Are those 2 "free" collars reflected in the C-Bill calculations for the Warship?

If Yes, then, meh, not really a win there.

If NO on the other hand, might be a way to get some "transports" that can go to/from planet transferring cargo or picking up ground forces that deployed from orbit.
Thinking Nightlord/Robinson type here.

[Daryk]

Based on TacOps:AUE page 146, I believe they do count for cost purposes.

[Lagrange]

Yes. If the dropship is equipped with a modern docking collar and associated KF-boom, then it has to connected the docking collar of the parent ship to be transported via jumping.

Do you know where these rules are?  I reviewed Interstellar Ops and Strat Ops, but could not find anything, then I looked through errata (nothing), and then through Q&A finding these two entries. 

There's nothing about a KF-boom interfering, but these do point out that the cargo rules are only for aerospace unit bay<->aerospace unit bay or aerospace unit bay<->ground.

However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.

The workaround here is to load from Cargo Bay to the reinforced repair bay, then launch from the reinforced repair bay.  I added some text describing this.

Incidentally, I also downgraded to 3 dropcollars, as per the original Kirishima, primarily for cost reasons.  Hopefully, 3 Miru will be enough if you have to jump directly into a combat zone.  With this change, I believe this is a class D refit of the original Kirishima.

...

Yeah, something like that is viable as an alternative to the Miru.  The difficulty of course is that it costs the same as a low end warship so it's tempting to just get a warship instead.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah, something like that is viable as an alternative to the Miru.  The difficulty of course is that it costs the same as a low end warship so it's tempting to just get a warship instead.

The difficulty with having pocket warships that cost

True. Well, I don't want to compete with or degrade your idea, though, and I do think that a 400 tons dropship with Naval C3 is a brilliant idea and would be quite viable as well. I just want to have the totally different approach - how to withstand against warship fleet without one or only backed by fewer warships, although naval C3 is better with an another warship at least. Although the cost is a factor, but the compack K-F drive is also an another factor as well, and that's the starting point on my idea. There would be some shipyards to making the dropships, but even the weight of your bank vault cannot increase the numbers of your shipyard capable to making the compact K-F drive easily and faster.

Also, you better not care much for the long term operation for a 400 tons dropship. It just can't help, for what it could take is barely better than an ASF and/or a small craft. Consider its tonnage you better think it as the bigger ASF.

[Lagrange]

True. Well, I don't want to compete with or degrade your idea, though,

No worries, and it's good to illustrate the alternative.  (BTW, MML seems to not list Naval C3? I had to add it manually.)

For the alternative, you can get something almost as tough as the escort at a smaller scale, say 5K tons, reducing the cost notably. 

Another approach is to use a more moderately tough dropship with an array of screen launchers for mobile cover. 

Also, you better not care much for the long term operation for a 400 tons dropship. It just can't help, for what it could take is barely better than an ASF and/or a small craft. Consider its tonnage you better think it as the bigger ASF.

Yep.

[Cannonshop]

Where is CS calling for collarless?

I see the post about spreading your navy around to have a "More Numerous" navy v/s a "Big Ship" navy, but I don't see anything about collars.  (I might be blind)

I honestly have issues w/ the way C-Bills work in Aerotech, I'm not sure I buy into the Fasanomics of the calculations.

I can fully get behind a "smaller/zerg it" navy that can deploy in many areas v/s a Leviathan navy. 

Not sure I buy into collarless unless we are somehow forced to use C-Bills & limited by them.  Otherwise I'd think Raw Mass in Materials & size/capacity of the shipyard is by far the bigger factor.

I actually wasn't really thinking about collars/no-collars.  I was thinking more in terms of addressing navies.  The first thing to address is addressing what a Navy is actually for, and that's a strategic, as opposed to tactical, force.

Not so much 'Zerg' as coverage and flexibility.

When you tott up the manpower requirements for those biggest-scale battleships, you're concentrating a huge portion of your skilled spacers and officers onto a platform that can really only cover one system at a time, and with the limitations at the start, that means making the most out of the recruitment and training (and the need to build up experience in those officers and crews if you ever WANT to build bigger ships.)

The best 'starter' navy doesn't begin with megacarriers or battleships, it's what some wags in the real world call a 'Frigate Navy'-that is, a navy mostly made of Corvettes and lighter ships, that can pull multiple missions simultaneously without straining your national budget on every single individual deployment.

basically, "Utility" ships with some capital armament, that can fill LOTS of roles without being ships you can't survive losing a few of.

At least, to start with.  This also lets you invest in the infrastructure to expand on-such as fueling/charging stations, service stations and ordnance depots, sensor satellite networks, and the rest that are things that make your warships much more effective and eases upkeep.

IMHO, canon vessels like the classic Tracker, Zechetinu or similar vessels are ideal for a starting (or re-starting) navy, call it 'phase one'

A 'Phase Two" navy would include armed transports like the Fox, because your phase ones should show you what you need in terms of escorting/supporting units to keep those armed transports alive and make them more useful as command platforms.

In my opinion, you don't start needing (or having a real use for) Cruisers until the third or fourth phase, after you've got a cadre of senior officers with warship experience to draw from, at least some experience in developing and using doctrine, and enough 'popcorn' units to cover non-offense, training, and utility roles.

Phase three is where you can start looking at highly specialized designs and designs that only make real sense if you're playing offense against high-peer opponents where you actually NEED the huge platform with lots of big guns, and can afford to actually staff and crew it, without gutting your personnel in the infrastructure levels or lower-tier units.

aka you're able to turn out enough junior officers,have enoug middle officers, and enough senior officers that you're not putting 'mechwarriors or Clerks in command positions just to get it out of the shipyard.

[Daryk]

Heh... and phase five is where you forget what low-end units can do for you... ;D

[Gorgon]

Building on the discussion of the merit of starting with small ships, here's Ioto Galactic's bit for a low level corvette, hopefully to be sold not only to the Lyran Commonwealth but maybe even exported to smaller entities like the Marians, Regulans, Taurians... who ever shows promise in destabilizing political rivals and has the cash to spare. The Raider's biggest draw is that it's the same size as an Invader. Any yard capable of maintaining Invaders can be upgraded by Ioto to maintain Raiders as well. At least that's the marketing pitch.

Code: [Select]

Raider Picket Corvette
Mass: 150,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 150,000
Battle Value: 34,947
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-X
Cost: 6,724,383,600 C-bills

Fuel: 1,200 tons (6,000)
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 400 (800)
Structural Integrity: 60

Armor
    Nose: 31
    Fore Sides: 32/32
    Aft Sides: 32/32
    Aft: 21

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (6)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (17621.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,360 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (780 tons),
    60 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (30 tons),
    120 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (1,200 tons),
    4,400 rounds of Rotary AC/5 ammunition (220 tons),
    1,920 rounds of LRM 20 Artemis-capable ammunition (320 tons),
    180 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (5,400 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 3
Grav Decks: 1 (65 m)
Escape Pods: 18
Life Boats: 18
Crew:  28 officers, 48 enlisted/non-rated, 46 gunners, 66 bay personnel, 40 passengers, 20 BA marines       

Notes: Mounts 180 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (139 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
FRS/FLS (37 Heat)
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                         24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Artemis-capable Ammo (480 shots)
RBS/LBS (244 Heat)
1 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                       18   30(300) 30(300) 30(300) 30(300)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (30 shots)
8 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      192  8(80)   8(80)   8(80)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Rotary AC/5                                4   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   AC         
    Rotary AC/5 Ammo (1600 shots)
3 Screen Launcher                           30   45(450)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
ARS/ALS (67 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                         24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Artemis-capable Ammo (480 shots)
Aft (112 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
3 Rotary AC/5                                3   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   AC         
    Rotary AC/5 Ammo (1200 shots)
   


[Daryk]

Not bad... all it's missing is some NL/45s for the Extreme Range AAA... ;)

[Gorgon]

That's true, but I wanted the extreme range hammer only a heavy naval gauss rifle can provide, so sacrifices had to be made. 

[Daryk]

Whatever works for you! :)

[Hellraiser]

I actually wasn't really thinking about collars/no-collars.  I was thinking more in terms of addressing navies.  The first thing to address is addressing what a Navy is actually for, and that's a strategic, as opposed to tactical, force.

Not so much 'Zerg' as coverage and flexibility.

Gotcha, that is what I thought you meant.
And perhaps Zerg (swarms of things that die but overrun) wasn't the best term, but I mean what you mean,  "disbursed options", as you say, "coverage & flexibility"

The best 'starter' navy doesn't begin with megacarriers or battleships, it's what some wags in the real world call a 'Frigate Navy'-that is, a navy mostly made of Corvettes and lighter ships, that can pull multiple missions simultaneously without straining your national budget on every single individual deployment.

IMHO, canon vessels like the classic Tracker, Zechetinu or similar vessels are ideal for a starting (or re-starting) navy, call it 'phase one'

A 'Phase Two" navy would include armed transports like the Fox, because your phase ones should show you what you need in terms of escorting/supporting units to keep those armed transports alive and make them more useful as command platforms.

See my original post, the Tracker & Fox happen to be critical components to how I'd rebuild using existing "Introtech 5" JS from DS/JS.

It wasn't exactly what the OP wanted but I recalled it from a decade ago & felt it was fairly compatible.

[Smegish]

And now for the Capellan Confederations entry into the Arms Race.

Confederation-class Cruiser

With the Magistracy-designed Centrella-class frigate being offered to them for general patrol duties, the Chancellor (after asking how the Magistracy managed to get a WarShip design finalised before his servant had even started their own) instead commanded the Ministry of the Military to design a larger ship to serve as the heart of a battle fleet to one day retake worlds stolen from the Chancellors loving embrace . To save time the Ministry went digging through their archives and decided that modifying the old Feng Huang-class Cruiser would be faster and easier than starting from scratch.

Starting with the same 970kt hull and drive systems along with the Lithium-Fusion batteries found on the older design, the designers kept the thick layers of Lamellor Ferro-Carbide, in fact thickening them in a few places. Also kept was the contingent of battle-armour equipped marines to both protect the ship and perform boarding actions against any foe it may encounter.

The first of the changes made to the design was reducing the dropship collars to four, done purely in an attempt to reduce the exorbitant cost of the ship to limited results. Other changes include the armament: with the previous designs lighter guns all replaced with a bristling array of Light Sub-Cap Cannons, 96 in total all in quad mounts festooned around the ship in a manner that can swat down any fighter strike while still providing some use as secondary guns against larger vessels. A substantial battery of Laser AMS guns provide more than adequate defence against all but the heaviest of missile salvoes.

For its main battery, the Confederation relies on a triple mount of Heavy Naval PPCs and a pair of twin Class-45 Naval Laser mounts in each quarter. Far from the heaviest armament compared to what the Maskirovka is reporting other nations are mounting upon their ships (especially the Kirishima II) but they do have the advantage of being ammunition independent.

When shown the final design the Chancellor was pleased, though he became less pleased when shown the price tag that came with it. One major oversight committed was that apparently the design team had not thought to check whether the Confederation still had a yard big enough to build such a ship (it didn't) and the need to build such a facility would delay construction until nearly 3130. Fortunately the shipbuilding knowledge gained from license-built Centrellas in the meantime would be instrumental in avoiding the gremlins that plagued the original Feng Huang.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Confederation
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $21,524,774,000.00
Magazine Cost: $24,000,000.00
BV2: 90,539

Mass: 970,000
K-F Drive System: Compact with L-F Battery
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
96 Subcapital Cannon Light
80 LAMS (IS)
12 Naval PPC Heavy
16 Naval Laser 45

Class/Model/Name: Confederation
Mass: 970,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 232,800.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 2,425.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact with L-F Battery (20 Integrity) 448,625.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 79.00
Structural Integrity: 90 87,300.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2766(5532) Double 2,039.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 6,972.00
Armor: 1800 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 1,746.00
Fore: 310
Fore-Left/Right: 300/300
Aft-Left/Right: 300/300
Aft: 290

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 40 280.00
Life Boats: 40 280.00

Crew And Passengers:
63 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 441.00
176 Crew in Steerage Quarters 880.00
136 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 680.00
276 Bay Personnel 0.00
50 1st Class Passengers 500.00
200 2nd Class Passengers 1,400.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00

94 BA Marines

Bay #1 - Fighters (36) - 6 Doors
Bay #2 - Small Craft (12) - 2 Doors
Bay #3 - Cargo (94,671 tons) - 2 Doors

Large Naval Comm-Scanner Suite
4800 Rounds Light S-C Cannon ammo (50 per gun)

Nose:

3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS

FL/FR:

3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS
1 x 3 HNPPC
2 x 2 NL/45

LBS/RBS:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS

AR/AL:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS
1 x 3 HNPPC
2 x 2 NL/45

Aft:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS


[Lagrange]

...

That's a solid design, the best armor of any so far.

Looking through the thread, we have quite a variety:
CC, Confederation: 21.5B cost, 970K tons, 4/6, LF, 4 dropships, 1800 armor, 108E/180M damage
LC, Raider: 6.7B, 150K tons, 2/3, 3 dropships, 180 armor, 42E/50L damage
MC, Centralla: 9B, 350K tons, 3/5, 4 dropships, 532 armor, 117E damage
Tamarind, Avanti: 17.6B, 240K tons, 4/6, LF, 4 dropships, 222 armor, 18E/120L damage
FS, Fox II + Tracker II + Monolisk: 28.5B, 430K tons, 3/5, LF, HPG, 9 dropships, 823 armor, 62E/182L damage
FS, Whirwhind II: ??B, 520K tons, 4/6, LF, NC3, 0 dropships, 494 armor, 51E/115L damage
DC, Kirishima II: 20.3B, 790K tons, 5/8, LF, NC3, 3 dropships, 1233 armor, 140E/152L damage

Edit: added peak damage numbers.

[idea weenie]

Idea weenie: on the one hand, I guess I forgot the detail that the Magistracy lacks a yard of sufficient size to build a 700kt ship, and building it would put the cost of the project at the very limits of what the Canopians could build, leaving no wiggle room for the inevitable cost overruns.

On the other hand, the larger more powerful ship is a Confederation design I haven't finished yet. 

The hull 2* the size is only 1.6 billion more expensive, or about a 18% cost increase.  In exchange the Magistracy will get a hull with far more capability for upgrades and in the meantime will allow for safe transportation capability.  If using a fleet solely of these Centrellas you will only be able to patrol 5 systems instead of 6, but using one of these as a formation leader for the smaller Centrellas means its partners have a much deeper supply range.  The other option would be using this larger vessel for practice for LONG-term deep space operations.

So it won't give as much coverage (83% the coverage vs the smaller hull), but it will have an extra 100 ktons that can be adjusted to whatever the ship is expected to need increasing its flexibility.  If you need to deliver a disassembled but valuable space station to another system, you can take the risk of using civilian Dropships, or you can load up to 100 ktons of space station in the larger Centrella and ship it in relative security.  The larger Centrella can even stay on-site while construction is going on, or head back for another valuable load.

I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

Lithium-Fusion Batteries also hurt in terms of cost, as they will triple the base costs of the KF core.  Considering that the majority of a ship's cost comes from the KF core, that is very painful especially for smaller hulls.


Has anyone done a cost breakdown on the existing designs, to determine what the three largest costs are for a Warship, and what percentage of the final cost they represent?

For example, the 350 kton Centrella costing ~9.1B has as its three most expensive components (prices are after the Warship x2 cost modifier):
KF Drive @ 4.59B: 50.4%
KF Drive Support Systems @ 3.4B: 37.3%
Weapons & Equipment @ 802M: 8.8% (of which the LNCSS at 500M is 5.5%)

So the KF Drive is 87.7% of the hull, and including just the LNCSS brings this to 93.2%.

The 700 kton Centrella costs 10.66B and its cost breakdown is:
KF Drive @ 4.6B: 43%
KF Drive Support Systems @ 4.8B: 45%
Weapons & Equipment @ 802M: 7.5% (of which the LNCSS at 500M is 4.7%)

Here the KF drive is 88% of the hull, and including just the LNCSS brings this to 92.7%.  The KF Core by itself barely fluctuated in cost, while the KF Core support systems were the key cost driver going up by 41% (they went up by 1.4B out of the total 1.6B price increase).

In terms of crew the 350 kton Centrella needs a total of 228 crew, while the 700 kton modification that doubles its mass needs 340 crew (~50% more).

[Lagrange]

I believe the set of expensive options are:

• Warship or Jumpship?
• Dropship Collar Count?
• LFB? (multiplies 1&2)
• Tonnage?
• NC3?(multiplies 4)
• HPG?
• LNCSS?
• Repair Bay tonnage?

Everything else is typically small potatoes.

[Daryk]

That sounds about right to me...

I'm beginning to think about a Taurian corvette (tentatively the Tentativa class).  No collars, "high" speed (for a WarShip), a Light Naval Gauss to kite with, some quad-mounted NL-45s, a few White Shark (nuke) launchers (maybe AR-10s for upgrade-ability), plenty of AMS, and probably some smaller AAA weapons covering a Squadron or two of ASF and Small Craft.

[Smegish]

The hull 2* the size is only 1.6 billion more expensive, or about a 18% cost increase.  In exchange the Magistracy will get a hull with far more capability for upgrades and in the meantime will allow for safe transportation capability.  If using a fleet solely of these Centrellas you will only be able to patrol 5 systems instead of 6, but using one of these as a formation leader for the smaller Centrellas means its partners have a much deeper supply range.  The other option would be using this larger vessel for practice for LONG-term deep space operations.

Two issues with your suggestion:

1) Do the Canopians have a yard big enough to build a 700kt ship? I am assuming no as the largest JumpShip they are listed building that I could find is a Scout. Can they afford to build a yard big enough? Maybe, but the extra cost would reduce the number of ships that can be built.

2) A 350kt frigate with a relatively short operational range isn't a serious threat to the various factions of the former FWL. A 700kt cruiser with the other modifications you suggested is a threat the Anduriens and Regulans may feel like they need to do something about. And the last time the Regulans felt they had to deal with a threat they broke out the great big cans of concentrated sunshine, the Canopians want none of that thank you very much.

They are building a self-defence navy, not the Grand Fleet. If they really need a bigger ship and ask real nice, they might get the Cappies to send one their way to scare off the bad men.   

[Giovanni Blasini]

So, realistically, what would a polity of 20 million on 3 planets and asteroids be able to field?  DropShips?  Maybe a JumpShip of some type?

[Liam's Ghost]

Honestly, my first instinct would be dropships, but Niops kinda feels like a special case.

Also I feel like any political power that has a significant portion of its population living on asteroids has extra incentive to develop its spaceborn infrastructure.

[Cannonshop]

So, realistically, what would a polity of 20 million on 3 planets and asteroids be able to field?  DropShips?  Maybe a JumpShip of some type?

Harsh Language, maybe.  maybe. as in 'if they're suicidally brave' they can field harsh language.  look at the proportions for everyone else.

[Lagrange]

Harsh Language, maybe.  maybe. as in 'if they're suicidally brave' they can field harsh language.  look at the proportions for everyone else.

C-bills per 3130 population from Sarna of existing proposals seems to be:

MH, Centralla: ??
Tamarind, Avanti: .23
CC, Confederation: .094
DC, Kirishima II: .028
FS, Monolisk: .022
LC, Raider: .009

Which would put a population of 20M at "maybe a pair of second hand ASF". Of course, Fasanomics is very evident here---US defense spending is ~3.2% of GDP and the GDP of 20M people might be 10B (at an ungenerous 500C-bills/head), suggesting something more like 320M for all-up defense spending.  If a third of that goes into the "fleet", there's a little wiggle room to work with.

[Giovanni Blasini]

C-bills per 3130 population from Sarna of existing proposals seems to be:

MH, Centralla: ??
Tamarind, Avanti: .23
CC, Confederation: .094
DC, Kirishima II: .028
FS, Monolisk: .022
LC, Raider: .009

Which would put a population of 20M at "maybe a pair of second hand ASF". Of course, Fasanomics is very evident here---US defense spending is ~3.2% of GDP and the GDP of 20M people might be 10B (at an ungenerous 500C-bills/head), suggesting something more like 320M for all-up defense spending.  If a third of that goes into the "fleet", there's a little wiggle room to work with.

There's probably a bit more wiggle room than that. There are a thread or two that discuss average income in the Inner Sphere as about 10,000 C-Bills/person, with one particular book, Handbook House Steiner, being a bit above the average at 17,000 C-Bills/person.

Let's go ahead and assume that, since Niops is a recovering world in the near Periphery, we're only seeing 5,000 C-Bills/person on average, and that defense spending is 1% of GDP.  That would give an approximate budget of (5000 * 20,000,000 * 0.01) = $1 billion C-Bill equivalents.

Niops is primarily supported by germanium mining, which gives them enough income to support the system, but which also means they need some space assets, specifically cargo ships and, presumably, tugs. 

Additionally, also have roughly a brigade's worth of forces, consisting of 1 'Mech regiment, and 3 infantry/armor regiments, and they need a way to transport those forces between worlds, though most of that can also presumably be done with bulk cargo transports - it's only when you need to hot drop to stop an attack that you need a true 'Mech or vehicle carrier.

OK, back to budget.  Give a third of that budget to the "Navy".  Then, allocate a third of it to procurement.  That puts their procurement budget at around 111 million/year, which doesn't get you far.  Ships like the cargo ships could come from your civilian spending, and your handful of combat transports could be budgeted out of a combined ground and naval budget or, alternatively, may simply be old ships previously procured and already in use, with only annual maintenance budgets needing to be accounted for.  Let's call that approximately 111 million the navy's patrol ship procurement budget, just for sake of sanity.

Figure with that, you could aquire, say, a single Saturn Patrol Ship per annum, or an armed Manatee, though that's more a 'Mech transport, unless you switch those to fighter cubes.  More expensive assault DropShips would have slower rates of procurement:

• Saturn: 1 per year
• Manatee: 1 per year
• Trojan Blockade Runner: 4 per 5 years (not really a combat ship, but it could share a platform with Danais cargo ships, and do cargo work itself
• Leopard CV (2581): 2 per 3 years
• Leopard Pocket WarShip: 2 per 5 years
• Intruder (2655): 2 per 5 years
• Quetzalcoutl Carrier JumpShips: 2 per 5 years
• Union Pocket WarShip: 1 per 3 years
• Pentagon (2540): 1 per 3 years
• Pentagon Pocket WarShip: 2 per 7 years
• Model 96 Elephant: 2 per 11 years

OK, with that in mind, I've got two ideas, which I'll post separately.

[Daryk]

On that list, I think I'd go for the Carrier JumpShips every time... ;)

[Giovanni Blasini]

OK, keeping that 111 million/year budget in mind, that gives me two ideas.  First up would be a modernized Saturn Patrol Craft, which would look something like this:

Code: [Select]

Saturn Patrol Ship 3150 Refit
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 1,200 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3150
Mass: 1,200
Battle Value: 2,157
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 114,363,200 C-bills

Fuel: 100 tons (5,000)
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Heat Sinks: 51
Structural Integrity: 15

Armor
    Nose: 165
    Sides: 145/145
    Aft: 125

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (99.5 tons)       2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    1,200 rounds of Machine Gun ammunition (6 tons)

Escape Pods: 2
Life Boats: 4
Crew:  3 officers, 5 enlisted/non-rated, 7 gunners, 2 passengers, 21 marines

Notes: Mounts 32.5 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                          Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                    Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (10 Heat)
1 Large Laser                  8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 Small Laser                  2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
2 Machine Gun                  0    0(4)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
RS/LS Fwd (10 Heat)
1 Large Laser                  8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 Small Laser                  2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
2 Machine Gun                  0    0(4)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
RS/LS Aft (10 Heat)
1 Large Laser                  8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 Small Laser                  2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
2 Machine Gun                  0    0(4)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
Aft (10 Heat)
1 Large Laser                  8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
2 Small Laser                  2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
2 Machine Gun                  0    0(4)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)

Features the following design quirks: Improved Communications, Atmospheric Flight Instability

You'll note the use of machine guns and small lasers for point defense.  That's because standard AMS is expensive, and laser AMS is even moreso.  The prototype AC/5s of the original were swapped for large lasers, which actually are slightly cheaper than the standard AC/5, bringing the price down further.  With only 51 standard heat sinks, heat management gets to be interesting, but still viable: you've only got six large lasers to worry about plus your small lasers.

Modernizing the ship freed up quite a bit of tonnage, enough to increase the onboard marines to a full platoon of 21, while also increasing the cargo to 99.5 tons.  There was still tonnage left, so I decided to go with adding a tug adapter, rather than capital weaponry, since that was cheaper.  If you prefer, a single SCL/2 would bring the price up to 120.78 million, close enough to our annual budget that Niops could theoretically procure one per year.  A single Piranha subcapital missile launcher would also fit, and put the price tag at 113.5 million.  Similarly, the switch from primitive to standard armor increased the protection by nearly 50%, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Overall, I like how this one came out, and given the Saturn used the Vulture's art, there's even a DropShip mini available for it (though it'll be a bit big).

The other idea I came up with was a Manatee CV: nearly everything is left stock on this one, except the 'Mechs are swapped for ASFs, and the cargo is reduced by 300 tons to add two more ASFs.  I've also tacked a couple small lasers on per arc to handle point-defense duties on the cheap:

Code: [Select]

Manatee CV
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 1,900 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 1,900
Battle Value: 1,553
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-D-D
Cost: 116,174,800 C-bills

Fuel: 135 tons (5,400)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 129
Structural Integrity: 10

Armor
    Nose: 80
    Sides: 70/70
    Aft: 60

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (6)             3 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (66.5 tons)       1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 2
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  2 officers, 3 enlisted/non-rated, 6 gunners, 12 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 15 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:            Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)      Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (14 Heat)
2 Medium Laser  14   2(18)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
    1 Large Laser
RS/LS Fwd (16 Heat)
2 Medium Laser  14   2(18)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
    1 Large Laser
2 Small Laser    2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
RS/LS Aft (16 Heat)
2 Medium Laser  14   2(18)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
    1 Large Laser
2 Small Laser    2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  Point Defense
Aft (14 Heat)
2 Medium Laser  14   2(18)    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)  Laser       
    1 Large Laser


No tug adapter here because there wasn't the tonnage to work with.  In a lot of ways, this is probably a more viable idea, since it's got a bit more reach thanks to the fighters, but while it's only 116 million C-Bills itself, you've also got to procure those six fighters, and it doesn't have the mass to support long-term patrols, with only 135 tons of fuel and 66.5 tons of cargo.  On the other hand, it's a Manatee, with 'Mech carrying and cargo carrying versions out there as well, so the Niops Association could basically build one DropShip for all their military needs, and just refit the cargo area based on what any one ship will be doing ('Mech carrier, CV, bulk transport, etc.).  While one doesn't exist in canon, a combined-arms transport that holds vehicles and infantry would also be fully possible.

Of course, the biggest issue with either of these is that they're basically speed bumps.  In a bigger navy, that might be fine, given they've got bigger assets to respond with once the enemy force has gone over the speed bump.  For a smaller nation like Niops, they are the bigger assets: between 3125 and 3150, the beginning of the ilClan era, you're looking at being able to procure 25 of these at most or up to, say, eight larger assault ships like a Union PWS or a Pentagon.

On that list, I think I'd go for the Carrier JumpShips every time... ;)

I was just typing up a reply, but, yeah, that's a valid argument: over 25 years from the start of our exercise to the beginning of the ilClan era, Niops would be able to field 10 Quetzalcoutl class JumpShips, while presumably building regular Scouts for civilian use.  That's 12 ASF per Quetzalcoutl, with FTL transport capabilities for them, for a total of 120 ASFs on 10 hulls.  With the Manatees, that's 25 DropShips and 150 ASF, but no FTL capabilities, so no quick response.  That may not be as big a deal in a system as small as Niops, but it's still worth noting.

[Daryk]

That Manatee is pretty much exactly how I imagined it! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

That Manatee is pretty much exactly how I imagined it! :)

So you're voting for Manatee over Quetzalcoatl, at least for new construction?  Maybe save on the latter by buying broken JumpShips on the open market and converting them?

[Daryk]

I think the Q would have higher priority, but some of the Manatees should be built too... :)

[Smegish]

Cannonshop: While you are correct that it is probably best to be building corvettes to start with, the two factions that aren't at least have political and military reasons why they aren't. Unless we are wiping all pre-existing WarShips from the map for this exercise of course.

The Capellans are buying or building under license Centellas for the small ship role and are already taking aim at the Republic again, who on top of their new corvette construction (Whatever it is) also have an existing navy even if it is all in mothballs. The Kuritans on the other hand have 2 clans on their borders, one of which is renowned for being very navy focused and the other has a Leviathan II floating around. And while a Lev II has a cost of "You've got to be kidding me?!?!?!?" C-Bills, any ship we've published so far except for the Confederation and Kiri II stupid enough to pick a fight with one won't do much more than scratch the paint. Not saying a Confederation-class would win that fight mano-a-mano, but the Lev would at least know it was in a fight rather than going over a speed bump.

[Daryk]

I'm pretty sure the Kuritans wouldn't bat an eye at using nukes, though...

[Retry]

Even back when the Inner Sphere actually had a non-trivial amount of Warships, the correct response to a Leviathan was nuclear armaggedon.

[Hellraiser]

Even back when the Inner Sphere actually had a non-trivial amount of Warships, the correct response to a Leviathan was nuclear armaggedon.

Lets be honest,  short of an SLDF-Line Squadron, EVERYONE's response to a Leviathan is Nukes.

[Liam's Ghost]

Lets be honest,  short of an SLDF-Line Squadron, EVERYONE's response to a Leviathan is Nukes.

Even with nukes your best play is to avoid a Leviathan II for as long as possible while you destroy the rest of their forces.

Assuming the Leviathan II is well supplied and and competently commanded, it will likely use its docking collars to carry escort ships that can augment its own point defense (because they know just as well as you do what killing a Leviathan entails). Even if it only has a few Vanirs riding herd, having them all stacked up together makes it effectively immune to nuclear attack for as long as the ammunition lasts. And depending on a variety of factors, that can require many dozens or even hundreds of missile attacks to do (the Leviathan's own point defense is good for around 200 shots per arc, a a Vanir is good for around 40, and just one effectively doubles the capabilities of the point defenses in that hex)

So you could theoretically be expending hundreds upon hundreds of missiles trying to get through its point defense. Unless you've destroyed so much of the rest of the Ghost Bear fleet that they have to reallocate the Leviathan's escorts and fighters to plug the holes you made.

Either way, killing it with conventional gunfire may actually be easier than nuking it.

[FastConcentrate8]

Even with nukes your best play is to avoid a Leviathan II for as long as possible while you destroy the rest of their forces.

Assuming the Leviathan II is well supplied and and competently commanded, it will likely use its docking collars to carry escort ships that can augment its own point defense (because they know just as well as you do what killing a Leviathan entails). Even if it only has a few Vanirs riding herd, having them all stacked up together makes it effectively immune to nuclear attack for as long as the ammunition lasts. And depending on a variety of factors, that can require many dozens or even hundreds of missile attacks to do (the Leviathan's own point defense is good for around 200 shots per arc, a a Vanir is good for around 40, and just one effectively doubles the capabilities of the point defenses in that hex)

So you could theoretically be expending hundreds upon hundreds of missiles trying to get through its point defense. Unless you've destroyed so much of the rest of the Ghost Bear fleet that they have to reallocate the Leviathan's escorts and fighters to plug the holes you made.

Either way, killing it with conventional gunfire may actually be easier than nuking it.

Who says that the nukes will be Missile Launced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dsQPQRjeow

The Dragon remembers its Heroes.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Quetzalcoatl (Scout) class Patrol Cutter

Overview

The naval arms race that flourished across the Inner Sphere and Periphery starting in 3125 spared few nations, as everyone faced the eventuality that they would need to respond to the actions of potentially hostile neighbors.  Even the Niops Association, with their limited population, three worlds bound in a single star system, and svelte military budget, found themselves forced to respond to the naval expansions of their Marian and former-and-once-again Free Worlds League.

Unable to afford the ruinously-expensive WarShips of their Inner Sphere neighbors, the Niops Association was forced to turn to a more modest solution, one employed by the Capellan Confederation centuries earlier: damaged Scout-class JumpShips converted into ad hoc fighter carriers.

Capabilities

As with the original Quetzalcoatl, the Niopian Quetzalcoatl Patrol Cutter is the result of older Scout-class JumpShips with sufficient damage to their KF drives or docking collars to render them unsafe or incapable of carrying DropShips through a hyperspace jump.  Like the Capellans who pioneered the concept, the Association, initially with the assistance of Republic engineers, would strip the docking collar from the vessel to free up extra mass for conversion to a patrol craft.

Unlike the original pure fighter carrier, the Patrol Cutter was envisioned from the beginning as a multipurpose craft.  Six aerospace fighters form the core of its offensive power, though a single SCL/2 subcapital laser and bare handful of large laser turrets serve as a secondary defense.  For last-ditch defenses, eight laser anti-missile systems have been fitted to the Quetzalcoatl as well.

To supplement its role as a patrol cutter, a single platoon of marines, cross-trained in both customs and search-and-rescue procedures, are embbarked on the Quetzalcoatl Patrol Cutter.  One of the cutter's two small craft bays carries a single boarding craft, while the other carries a long-range shuttle, such as a K-1 DropShuttle.  Crew-level berthings for both fighter and shuttle crews, as well as the marines, allows the cutter to maintain longer patrols than would otherwise be possible, allowing a greater portion of the ship's nearly 330 tons of cargo to be reserved for fuel and supplies for the aerospace fighters.

As the primary jump-capable asset of the Niops Association Militia, it was expected that Quetzalcoatl Patrol Cutters would find themselves frequently responding to emergencies amongst the asteroid belt of the Niops system.  To that end, a number of emergency berths, as well as limited surgical facilities, have been included aboard the Patrol Cutter to provide triage and surgical treatment for the greviously wounded.


Deployment

Procurement of the Quetzalcoatl Patrol Cutter has been slow, hampered by both the need to locate and purchase suitable donor JumpShips, as well as the efforts needed to convert them.  However, they have proven invaluable in both serving as essentially mobile picket stations at the Niops system's primary jump points, as well as fast response for emergencies in the system's asteroid belts among germanium mining operations.

To that end, the Association has been working diligently to build a yard capable of construction of both the Quetzalcoatl and her Scout-class JumpShip progenitor, along with continuing production of the Danais class fighter carrier, which also serves as part of the Niops system's naval defenses.

Code: [Select]

Quetzalcoatl-Scout JumpShip Patrol Cutter
Mass: 90,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 90,000
Battle Value: 1,575
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-F
Cost: 293,040,760 C-bills

Fuel: 52 tons (520)
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 3
Heat Sinks: 91
Structural Integrity: 1

Armor
    Nose: 6
    Fore Sides: 7/7
    Aft Sides: 7/7
    Aft: 6

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (6)             2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (327.5 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 0
Escape Pods: 8
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  6 officers, 28 enlisted/non-rated, 3 gunners, 22 bay personnel, 25 passengers, 21 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 MASH Equipment (4 theaters)
    2 Space Mine Dispenser
50 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (28 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Laser /2  28   2(20)   2(20)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (22 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Large Laser            8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (22 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Large Laser            8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       



[Giovanni Blasini]

Danais CV Carrier DropShip

Overview

While the Niops Association worked to procure Scout-class JumpShips of dubious quality for conversion into Quetzalcoatl Patrol Cutters, the Niops Association Militia and, perhaps more importantly, their Board of Chairpersons, recognized a lower-budget option would also be necessary to supplement the jump-capable cutters, preferrably one that could be produced domestically in a shorter period than was projected for the JumpShips.  To that end, they turned to an ubiquitous civilian transport DropShip: the Danais class.

Capabilities

Recognizing the costs of armed military DropShips could escalate beyond anything they could reasonably procure in a cost-conscious fashion, the NAM Navy would choose to convert the Danais to a carrier DropShip, intending to allow its aerospace fighters to handle combat.  To that end, the Danais CV would be nearly unarmed, with only a pair of laser anti-missile systems fore and aft to protect the ship.

The "business end", then, of the Danais CV is in its twelve aerospace fighters.  These provide stand-off offensive capabilities beyond that which standard DropShip weapons would be able to provide.

Deployment

With the aid of Interstellar Expeditions, the Niops Association was able to procure sufficient tooling to begin production of the Danais class domestically.  This domestic production is, in turn, divided between civilian use, and military conversions, including more heavily-armed "Trojan" conversions used by NAM ground forces in place of the its militarized cousin, the Union class.  While this would in theory slow procurement, the availability has matched up well with the Militia's limited budget.

Code: [Select]

Danais CV
Type: Civilian Spheriod
Mass: 3,200 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 3,200
Battle Value: 1,184
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Cost: 107,408,000 C-bills

Fuel: 250 tons (7,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Heat Sinks: 31
Structural Integrity: 7

Armor
    Nose: 105
    Sides: 105/105
    Aft: 81

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (244.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 4
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 3 enlisted/non-rated, 24 bay personnel, 24 passengers

Notes: Mounts 23 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (14 Heat)
2 Laser AMS  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
Aft (14 Heat)
2 Laser AMS  14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         


[Daryk]

An SCL/2?  An SCL/1 would give better range.  If you're OK with the shorter range, an SCL/3 is only 50 tons more... :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

I bounced back and forth between the two, and even spending another 100 tons to mount two SCL/1s, one in each fore-side, but felt it took away too much in other areas.  The SCL/2 seemed a good compromise on damage versus mass.

I might go back to a single SCL/1 though since it has the added benefit of farther reach, making it vaguely feasible to use it for orbital bombardment, which would be absolutely hilarious, and since it would let me put on another 50 tons of cargo.

[Daryk]

54 if you reduce the heat sinks too... ;D

[Giovanni Blasini]

Think I’m already at the minimum number of heat sinks.  I’ll have to check when the big ball of burning fusion plasma is back in the sky and I’m actually fully awake.

Next question: does the SCL actually add utility or should I skip it for something else?  When I added it, I was thinking akin to the 25mm/57mm main gun on our wet navy cutters.

Also, at one point I had also gone with ARTS fighter bays on both the Quetzalcoatl and the Danais, with the intent of using either Mk 20 SwiftStar or Mk 30 BlackWasp drone fighters, to save on crewing, but the lack of ATACS as an option on a JumpShip, along with the extra weight, made me hesitant.  Thoughts?

[Daryk]

Being able to reach out and touch pirates is always useful! :)

I wouldn't go for ARTS in the first generation.  Maybe upgrade to it later?

[Retry]

ARTS can also be used with manned fighters, not just drones.  It can be a good upgrade on an otherwise-crewed vessel as it lowers your consumable consumption and provides (most) veteran repair crew features without actually having to lose a veteran repair crew if you lose the ship.

[Giovanni Blasini]

ARTS can also be used with manned fighters, not just drones.  It can be a good upgrade on an otherwise-crewed vessel as it lowers your consumable consumption and provides (most) veteran repair crew features without actually having to lose a veteran repair crew if you lose the ship.

That's a fair point.  Dropping the SCL and tweaking a couple other items would result in this:

Code: [Select]

Quetzalcoatl-Scout JumpShip Patrol Cutter
Mass: 90,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 90,000
Battle Value: 1,450
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-F
Cost: 293,878,260 C-bills

Fuel: 52 tons (520)
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 3
Heat Sinks: 91
Structural Integrity: 1

Armor
    Nose: 6
    Fore Sides: 7/7
    Aft Sides: 7/7
    Aft: 6

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  ARTS Fighter (6)        2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (329.5 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 0
Escape Pods: 8
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  6 officers, 28 enlisted/non-rated, 1 gunner, 10 bay personnel, 20 passengers, 21 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 MASH Equipment (4 theaters)
    2 Space Mine Dispenser
50 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:           Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)     Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (8 Heat)
1 Large Laser   8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
FRS/FLS (22 Heat)
2 Laser AMS    14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Large Laser   8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
ARS/ALS (22 Heat)
2 Laser AMS    14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Large Laser   8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       



[Daryk]

Niops will have such a small number, I could see one of each flavor being built... ;)

[Lagrange]

That's a fair point.  Dropping the SCL and tweaking a couple other items would result in this:

Another trick is that you can mix ARTS and non-ARTS bays.   The ARTS bay can work 24 hours/day so by shuffling fighters between bays you can easily do maintenance on more than one fighter from a single ARTS bay.

[Daryk]

Now THAT's a bright idea Niops would totally run with! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Niops will have such a small number, I could see one of each flavor being built... ;)

And given they're being basically refit on existing hulls, that'd make a lot of sense.  Hell, there's no reason why it would necessarily just be Scout-class JumpShips.  Any JumpShip that's had issues signficant enough to render it still able to jump but unable to carry DropShips would be a prime candidate for conversion, and the most common JumpShip hull in the Inner Sphere isn't the Scout, but the Invader (see below).

Another trick is that you can mix ARTS and non-ARTS bays.   The ARTS bay can work 24 hours/day so by shuffling fighters between bays you can easily do maintenance on more than one fighter from a single ARTS bay.

Yeah, that is a brilliant idea.

Now, what would all this look like on an Invader hull?  Something like this:

Code: [Select]

Invader Jumpship Patrol Cutter
Mass: 152,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 152,000
Battle Value: 1,844
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-F
Cost: 382,575,667 C-bills

Fuel: 50 tons (250)
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 116
Structural Integrity: 1

Armor
    Nose: 9
    Fore Sides: 8/8
    Aft Sides: 8/8
    Aft: 9

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (1)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (6)             3 Doors   
    Bay 3:  ARTS Fighter (6)        3 Doors   
    Bay 4:  ARTS Small Craft (1)    1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (257.5 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Cargo (258.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (65 m)
Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  4 officers, 19 enlisted/non-rated, 5 gunners, 22 bay personnel, 22 passengers, 21 marines

Notes: Mounts 84 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (14 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (46 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Large Laser            8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (46 Heat)
1 Sub-Capital Laser /1  24   1(10)   1(10)   1(10)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
1 Large Laser            8    1(8)    1(8)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
Aft (14 Heat)
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         



Yes, it's a 40% increase in cost.  It's also vastly more capable, and built on a much more common hull.

[Daryk]

Yessss! LOVE IT! :D

And I could totally see the maintenance crews on the non-ARTS craft doing everything in their power to shift their hard maintenance issues to the ARTS bays... ;D

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yessss! LOVE IT! :D

And I could totally see the maintenance crews on the non-ARTS craft doing everything in their power to shift their hard maintenance issues to the ARTS bays... ;D

Yeah, I was floored at first, because it seems like a small increase in mass, since both JumpShips are fairly small.  However, the available mass increases by 69%.

Honestly, the Tramp class might even be a better bet.  That Invader has around 3900 tons for cargo, transport bays, fighters, weapons, passengers, etc., after you rip out its docking collars.  Tramps, at 100kt heavier, have nearly 6300 tons available.

The drawback on the Tramp is it's half a billion C-bills for a stripped-down model with no docking collars.  On the other hand, it's got a sketchy reputation in the Inner Sphere due to flaws in the new production model, which also means you can probably pick up ones with flawed docking collars easily enough, and they might even be more readily available than the Invaders because of it.

[Daryk]

If the production problem is with the docking collars, Tramps become the go-to conversion targets.  Great idea! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

If the production problem is with the docking collars, Tramps become the go-to conversion targets.  Great idea! :)

Doesn't really say, just that defects were found in the drive coils on the new ships back in 3052, which were traced to a faulty "mesh spinner and quickly rectified", but that it left lingering doubts about the ships, making them easy to acquire.  It's probably still workable to use as an argument, though, and they were conveniently produced in the FWL on Loyalty, which is only two jumps from the Wolf Empire.  For that matter, Interstellar Expeditions could easily serve as a go-between to allow Niops to license the design, to ensure it's produced somewhere other than on the border with the Wolf Empire, with civvie ships going to the open market, and defects getting used by the NAM.

[Daryk]

Excellent logic! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

So, something like this?

Code: [Select]

Tramp JumpShip Armed Merchant Carrier
Mass: 250,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 250,000
Battle Value: 3,182
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-F
Cost: 525,310,833 C-bills

Fuel: 500 tons (1,250)
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Sail Integrity: 5
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 122
Structural Integrity: 1

Armor
    Nose: 12
    Fore Sides: 14/14
    Aft Sides: 14/14
    Aft: 12

Cargo
    Bay 1:  ARTS Fighter (6)        3 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  ARTS Small Craft (2)    1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Fighter (12)            3 Doors   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (401.5 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Cargo (401.5 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (140 m)
Escape Pods: 10
Life Boats: 5
Crew:  10 officers, 39 enlisted/non-rated, 10 gunners, 44 bay personnel, 34 passengers, 21 marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 MASH Equipment (6 theaters)
    4 Space Mine Dispenser
134.5 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (38 Heat)
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (54 Heat)
1 ER Large Laser        12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /2  28   2(20)   2(20)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (54 Heat)
1 ER Large Laser        12    1(8)    1(8)    1(8)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Sub-Capital Laser /2  28   2(20)   2(20)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (38 Heat)
2 ER Large Laser        24   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Laser AMS             14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         

Edit: Made a couple errors with crewing that I had to fix, which resulted in needing to drop the dual SCL/1s to single SCL/2s, but that got me back a little more cargo.  Also, I forgot to allocate the MASH unit.  Thought about a small naval comm-scanner, but that's 50 million before multiplier.

[Daryk]

That's great, and not much more than the half a billion you mentioned! :)