TRO 3145--Federated Suns

[Paul]

But it also has three clantech ER medium lasers and two IS medium pulse lasers. Granted, the heat sinks are somewhat lacking to use all of this effectively for long, but that’s still almost the equivalent of three IS large lasers to go with the two pulse lasers, meaning it can pump out some serious firepower for its size even without the AI guns.

Yeah, and if you told me I could only use Clan gear for one of the set of lasers, I'd have a hard time picking between ER or pulse. I think I'd go ER because the extra range gives options, while the loss in hexes doesn't hurt as badly.
Of course, that's also because I'd get 3 vs 2; change those numbers and my vote could change with it.

MG arrays are pretty decent for anti-Mech work once the armor goes as well.

[BrianDavion]

I am going to regret this.

It is probably even mentioned earlier in the thread.

The Federated Suns entered the TRO cycle with fewer glaring holes in its line-up than nearly any other faction. The Mechs in TRO3145/3150 aren't meant to be used together. They are meant to be used with the veterans from TRO3085 and even TRO3067.

I'm happy with what the feddies got in tro 3145 (about the only thing about the feddies treatment in 3145 I'm happy with if we're being honest :) ) but I think where he's coming from is that none of the designs really seem to hint about the feddies post black out military doctrine and sometimes feel a bit haphazzard (personally I think there's some evidance of the doctrine favoring mechs as anchors and swift movement of armor presumably to flank etc

[Templar87]

And I don't think it's meant to make the Davions look bad. The fluff feels very [DELETED DUE TO RULE 4]. The point doesn't seem to be that the Scarecrow is evil, but that there's political momentum in certain groups saying loudly that it is evil and roping in the well meaning but naive to make sure it's seen as such.

It is, however, a very hamfisted attempt at that. Almost as bad as Michael Stackpole putting Katherine on the throne, shrugging his shoulders, and saying "opinion poles, amirite?"

And that is exactly what I have a problem with, because - not only is the Scarecrow armed with what have been standard anti-infantry weapons for literally more than a thousand years (if it was tossing around nerve gas-loaded SRMs or other, similarly horrible ordnance, then that might make more sense - but then we'd have to deal with it being profoundly out of character for the AFFS to do that), the complaints about its supposed "inhumanity" come as the Liao-Kurita atrocity trains are hammering their way through the Suns and former Republic space. To say the least, this comes off as profoundly myopic (in universe)/badly written (out of universe).


(I mean, it's better than the idea of pro-Capellan protestors on New Syrtis who are not lynched on the spot by the rest of the population (or arrested by the AFFS to prevent exactly that) after the Capellans' brutal invasion and occupation, and the liberation by the AFFS, but that's a really low bar to clear)

I am going to regret this.

It is probably even mentioned earlier in the thread.

The Federated Suns entered the TRO cycle with fewer glaring holes in its line-up than nearly any other faction. The Mechs in TRO3145/3150 aren't meant to be used together. They are meant to be used with the veterans from TRO3085 and even TRO3067.

I do get that, yeah, but it's hard to pick up any kind of coherent theme as to how the TRO 3145 designs came about, or, well, how most of them are supposed to fit into FedSuns doctrine. Like, taking the Rec Guides as a comparison, there's a clear Hi-Lo force mix visible in FedSuns designs there, with the lower end designs like the Enforcer, Victor and BattleMaster bulking out formations while high-end designs like the newest Marauder, Nightstar and Marauder II models provide concentrated punch.

[Jellico]

TRO3145/3150's primary goal was to bring the remaining MechWarrior Mechs, vehicles, and battle armor into BattleTech. Balance was not intended.

And here I go...

Have a look at those Mechs you listed. Some of the best from the TRO3025 to 3060, all kept up to date through various books up to RecGuides. There is a reason why the Fed Suns can't get a win in 100 years and is still considered the favoured child.

RecGuides provided a clear doctrine and hi-low mix, and any other themes you see because it largely took the very solid base that was already there and updated it with modern technology.
TRO3145/3150 was largely new Mechs in a space already crammed with winners. It is not really comparable.

[Middcore]

There is a reason why the Fed Suns can't get a win in 100 years and is still considered the favoured child.

You're suggesting that reason is what's on their MUL?

[BrianDavion]

TRO3145/3150's primary goal was to bring the remaining MechWarrior Mechs, vehicles, and battle armor into BattleTech. Balance was not intended.

And here I go...

Have a look at those Mechs you listed. Some of the best from the TRO3025 to 3060, all kept up to date through various books up to RecGuides. There is a reason why the Fed Suns can't get a win in 100 years and is still considered the favoured child.

ignorance combined with the novel focus on VSD explains that Jellico, not the "amazing mechs" the fedsuns gets in TROs... which let's face it, has MSOTLY been "lyran designs the fedsuns got access to during the fedcom"

I say ignorance because "the feduns always wins" had taken a meme level strength among the community, it took the loss of new avalon tobreak that and make people sit up and take note

[Paul]

"the feduns always wins" had taken a meme level strength among the community, it took the loss of new avalon tobreak that and make people sit up and take note

Kinda proving the need to kick em in the nads that much to move the needle away from "fedsuns always wins".

I will say though: tears from feddie fans are delicious. So it's a good thing there's a lot of you.

[BrianDavion]

Kinda proving the need to kick em in the nads that much to move the needle away from "fedsuns always wins".

I will say though: tears from feddie fans are delicious. So it's a good thing there's a lot of you.

yeah Paul it just proves how stupidly pervasive the meme is.

[Middcore]

Kinda proving the need to kick em in the nads that much to move the needle away from "fedsuns always wins".

Ah, yes, truly FedSuns should be grateful.

[BrianDavion]

Ah, yes, truly FedSuns should be grateful.

I just wonder how all these people who are enjoying that the fedsuns has suffered countless losses because of the 4th sucession war are going to re-act when the capcon suffers karma for all THEIR wins...
:)

[Middcore]

I just wonder how all these people who are enjoying that the fedsuns has suffered countless losses because of the 4th sucession war are going to re-act when the capcon suffers karma for all THEIR wins...
:)

As I have said in multiple other threads, there is no evidence that the "universe" "works" this way.

"TPTB make decisions based on fan popularity polls"
"TPTB make decisions based on irrational fan beliefs"
"TPTB make decisions based on some concept of karma or cyclical balance"

All of these would be shit ways to determine the narrative of a fictional universe. If TPTB were trying to make decisions based on some of these strategies, we would have to conclude based on results that they're totally incompetent.

[Paul]

Ah, yes, truly FedSuns should be grateful.

You guys should take notes from ROTS fans. You don't see those guys lining up to complain about their crappy treatment in HOTW in some random TRO thread.

[Middcore]

You guys should take notes from ROTS fans. You don't see those guys lining up to complain about their crappy treatment in HOTW in some random TRO thread.

1. You cannot convince me ROTS fans exist or ever have.  :P

2. I am not a FedSuns fan.

I will add that this thread wasn't an argument about how the FS is treated until Jellico (rather weirdly, IMO) implied that the FS getting nice 'Mechs is why they're perceived as favored.

[Scotty]

Hello, ROTS fan checking in.  The Davion fan persecution complex appears to still be in full swing despite entering year three of nothing but victory.  It's nice to know that some things never change.

[Istal_Devalis]

1. You cannot convince me ROTS fans exist or ever have.  :P

2. I am not a FedSuns fan.

1: Yo! Hastati represent!

You guys should take notes from ROTS fans. You don't see those guys lining up to complain about their crappy treatment in HOTW in some random TRO thread.

I expect many of us aren't as upset because we knew they were setup to fail to begin with. Any extension of their life expectancy was an unexpected surprise.

Also, my main faction was CLAN NOVA CAT. Frankly, anyone else discussing how poorly their faction was treated over the years is getting some SERIOUS side eye from me, barring certain other exterminated Clans.

[VensersRevenge]

So we're not allowed to vent about the Federated Suns in non-FS threads, if we do it in FS threads it will still be complained about after someone explicitly says they enjoy us being upset, and I have no doubt that if we make a thread explicitly dedicated to venting about it, you'll complain about it too. Sounds good

[SteelRaven]

1. You cannot convince me ROTS fans exist or ever have.  :P

Yeah, wow! Just maybe, MAYBE, you have a bit of a bias.

[Paul]

1. You cannot convince me ROTS fans exist or ever have.  :P

What, the forum posters on here who are ROTS fans are russian bots?

2. I am not a FedSuns fan.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. ;)

I will add that this thread wasn't an argument about how the FS is treated until Jellico (rather weirdly, IMO) implied that the FS getting nice 'Mechs is why they're perceived as favored.

Sure, if the argument (of some FS fans in here) is that TPTB hate their faction and will take a dump on said faction every chance they can, then those same TPTB wouldn't give that faction any cool 'Mechs.

It hinges on popping one of the delusions in play. That a malicious TPTB might both hurt their pet faction in infinite ways, yet somehow also still be restrained somehow to appease... who? TPTB *above* TPTB?

It's hard to create rational arguments when the other guy has an irrational argument that requires a negative to be proved. Nothing you or I can say will ever please them when they say nonsense like

the fedsuns has suffered countless losses because of the 4th sucession war

I mean, there's just no talking to people like that. And he's had that position pretty much since I met him on IRC, what, '98? '99?

[Scotty]

The solution is just ignore Paul.


Slightly less tongue in cheek: yes, you should probably not do your venting in a general space with all eyes watching if you don't want pushback when someone disagrees.  There is no main character in General Discussion.

[Paul]

The solution is just ignore Paul.

oooo! Sigged!

[MarauderD]

Feel free to close the thread if we're getting off topic--I think we've all discussed the TRO at this point.

[VensersRevenge]

Slightly less tongue in cheek: yes, you should probably not do your venting in a general space with all eyes watching if you don't want pushback when someone disagrees.  There is no main character in General Discussion.

I don't care about receiving pushback. I care about explicitly being told not to vent in non-FS related threads, doing that, and then having people still call it a persecution complex or that they enjoy us being upset with no pushback. That's not pushback, that's FS not allowed to express a negative opinion on our current status.

[Middcore]

I mean, there's just no talking to people like that. And he's had that position pretty much since I met him on IRC, what, '98? '99?

Well, things have gotten much worse for the FedSuns overall since then, so I'm not surprised he hasn't changed his beliefs.

Where I would disagree with him is the notion that it happened "because of" the 4th Succession War, because this is the karma/balance "TPTB always give a faction their comeuppance after having them win for a while" theory, which I think is completely wrong, although he is hardly alone in subscribing to among the population of this forum. As I said before, this would be a dull and dumb way to compose a metafictional narrative, and if TPTB actually were trying to follow such a strategy of karmic reckoning where factions take turns with the "success ball" and everybody more or less breaks even in the end, then we would have to conclude they are incompetent because that simply doesn't happen.

Your decades-old personal frustrations with one particular forum poster aside, it certainly doesn't make more level-headed FedSuns partisans less likely to give in to a persecution complex when someone who isn't quite one of TPTB themselves but certainly holds a higher status in the franchise firmament than most makes trollish comments like "your tears are delicious." When I was a mod here many years ago I think a dim view would have been taken of such behavior by staff, although perhaps I'm idealizing the past.

[Scotty]

Brown Beemer = demo agent or volunteer, and explicitly not staff.

[Middcore]

Brown Beemer = demo agent or volunteer, and explicitly not staff.

I use "staff" here in an imprecise sense of "represents CGL in some way shape or form."

Long-time forum members and BT fans know who he is and know he's not just some Joe Schmoe.

[Arkansas Warrior]

An official volunteer for the company is still representing them, even if not paid.  And yes, it does look bad when such a person is openly ridiculing a section of the fanbase.

[Middcore]

An official volunteer for the company is still representing them, even if not paid.  And yes, it does look bad when such a person is openly ridiculing a section of the fanbase.

To be fair to Paul, it seems like he let his annoyance at one individual provoke him to say something that a much larger number of people he probably has no beef with might consider a bit rude. When the same people in a fandom interact for ~25 years, it's understandable they might start to get on each other's nerves. It's why I am a big advocate of using the ignore list function here, though I have had people become aghast when I suggest it. We're all here to enjoy ourselves, after all, and if a certain person's communication style or hobby-horses irritate you to a point it detracts from that enjoyment, better in my view to simply "remove" the cause of the irritation.

None of this to imply anything against BrianDavion either, another "old-timer" I well remember. Sometimes two people can just be around each other talking about the same stuff for too long.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You can Ignore people with BattleMaster icons?  That seems...unwise, since some of them might need all posters to see when they issue an “everyone step back and take a breath”.  And at any rate, missing everything a company representative says seems unwise, since they might be putting out the official word on something you need/want to know.

[SteelRaven]

Speaking as a fellow fan who is far from new here

This is a topic nearing 10 year in age that was dug up and is quickly devolving into "I'm the smartest guy in the room"

If we don't have anything add about a TRO that was published in 2013 other than 'it doesn't fit my personal design philosophy' I suggest we move on.

[Middcore]

You can Ignore people with BattleMaster icons?  That seems...unwise, since some of them might need all posters to see when they issue an “everyone step back and take a breath”.  And at any rate, missing everything a company representative says seems unwise, since they might be putting out the official word on something you need/want to know.

I did not suggest ignoring company representatives. I obliquely suggested they ignore some other members before they say things that reflect badly on the company, although I imagine mods aren't allowed to avail themselves of the function since it's sort of their job to see what everyone is saying.