Author Topic: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)  (Read 5719 times)

Nebfer

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Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« on: 13 June 2017, 15:45:59 »
I've liked the 4th succession war atlas depiction for regiments, so using thoughs and the some modifications of the rules in Strat and int ops for support crews, and my own experience at looking over military ToEs, I came up with what I feel what a real B-tech Regiment would be like in terms of man power, as the ones used in the game simply to me suck.

Basically the Succession wars atlas provides each regiment multiple companies of extra units
A battlemech regiment generally had a pair of cmd lances, an artillery company and a reinforced truck company with a Support battalion comprising of a battlemech lance, and 3 companies of various units, these varied wildly but their did seem to be a loose pattern, as the various factions did seem to have a slight theme to these units the Basics where either a mech company (specialized, like the Lyrian Lightning companies (jump capable units IIRC)), various infantry companys (Security was the most commonly listed, though assault, commando and the likes where also to be found), a Tank company (often recon focused), a Aerospace squadron (head canon is that this was really a air recon squadron, you know where we find the boomerang spotter planes).

The regiment depicted below is based off of a commonly seen layout (notably with the AFFS).

as for the other elements I generally took the Int ops  line that house units had half the Admins due to higher levels of support to mean that a battalion had half the amount of admins but the discarded admins where bumped to regimental. All platoon and company Admins where pooled at battalion level then cut in half rounded down for the battalion staff the rounded up half was put as regimental staff.

As for techs All vehicles (mech and tank) had a dedicated Tech and each company a platoon of Astechs assigned, with the battalion & regimental having two more astech platoons, infantry units only had a squad and a single platoon at battalion.

Each company also had a medical team, a mess team (based on the Tack ops field kitchen team of 3 men that can feed 150 men per day), and a command squad
All regiments have an artillery battery but Battlemech regiments have a full 12 unit battery (often with a Long tom platoon) the others just a half battery (6 firing units), this is on top of non regimental units (I.e. an RCTs artillery battalion). This is not how I view it, it's actually listed in the Succession wars atlas, tank and infantry regiments have a artillery battery with a single platoon of artillery (Battlemech units generally have 3 platoons of arty), which I slightly modified to be 6 units (so I can have 2 units per battalion).

Medical wise is where I do deviate a more notably as mentioned already each company has a single team, each battalion has 4 teams and at regimental 11 teams (the amount required to fully staff a pair of MASH units with a extra guy). Per strat ops you need 1 medic for every 5 guys which I view as a bit to much at regimental levels, here it's closer to 1 in 10.
Code: (battlemech regiment) [Select]
Battlemech Regiment 1,694 total personnel
HQ lance 8
Escort lance 8
HQ Element 98 (admins)
Mess 6
Medical 55 (2x MASH Trucks)
Supply & Maint 84
-Artillery Battery 127
-Truck Company 75

---Support Battalion 327---
HQ Lance 8
HQ Element 16 (+16 to reg)
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & supply 28
Inf Co 106
Lt Armor Co 91
Air squadron 55 (boomerang spotters)

---3x Battalions 302---
HQ Lance 8
HQ Element 14 (15 to reg)
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & supply 56
3x Companys 67 /201
--------------

Battlemech Company 67
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Lances 24

Air Squadron 55
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Lances 12

Armored Truck Company 75
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
4x Platoons 32 (16x Veh Dvrs +16x Techs)

Infantry Security Company 106
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 7
3x Platoons 84

Armored Recon Company 91 (up to 45 ton units)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 48 (36x veh crews, 12 techs)

Artillery Company 127 (up to 90t units)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x SP Artillery Batteries 84 (72x crews, 12x techs)


Code: (Tank Regiment, Medium) [Select]
Medium Armor Regiment 2,093 personnel
HQ Platoon 24 (Crews 20, Techs 4)
Escort Platoon 16 (Crews 12, Techs 4)
Admins 112
Mess 6
Medical 55
Supply & Maint 84
Infantry Company 106

---Support Battalion 380---
HQ 20 (Crews 16, Techs 4)
Admins 18 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 133
Recon Company 91
Truck Company 67

---Hvy Armor Battalion 454---
HQ 20
Admins 22 +22
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56

2x Hvy Tank Cos 115/230
Medium Tank Co 103

---2x Medium Armor Btln 428----
HQ 20
Admins 20 +21
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56

3x Medium Tank Cos 103 /309

Medium Tank Co 103 (up to 60 tons)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 60 (48 Crews, 12 techs)

Heavy Tank Co 115 (up to 75 tons)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 72 (60 crew, 12 techs)

Assault Tank Co 127 (up to 90 tons)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 84 (72 crew, 12 techs)


Code: (Infantry Regiment, Foot) [Select]
Foot Infantry Regiment 1,935 personnel
HQ Platoon 34 (2x sqds, 4x vehs 45 to 60t +4 techs)
Escort Platoon 16 (lt veh ptln)
Admins 104
Mess 6
Medical 55
Supply & Maint 28
Infantry Company 106 (Towed autocannon co?)

---Support Battalion 380---
HQ 20
Admins 18 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 133
Recon Company 91
Truck Company 67

---3x Infantry Battalions 402---
HQ 28
Admins 19 +20 to reg
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 14
3x Infantry Companys 106 /318 (see mech regiment inf co)
-----
Artillery Company 133
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Towed Artillery Batteries 90 (6 tubes)

Armored Truck Company 67
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 24


Code: (Infantry Regiment, Jump) [Select]
Jump Infantry Regiment  1,689 personnel
HQ Platoon 34
Escort Platoon 16
Admins 98
Mess 6
Medical 55
Supply & Maint 28
Infantry Company 85

Support Battalion 380
HQ 20
Admins 18 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 133
Recon Company 91
Truck Company 67

3x Infantry Battalions 329
HQ 21
Admins 16+16
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 14
3x Infantry Companys 85 /255

Jump Infantry Company 85
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 7
3x Platoons 21 /63

Artillery Company 133
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Towed Artillery Batteries 90 (6 tubes)

Armored Truck Company 67
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Platoons 24


Code: (Infantry Regiment, Mech) [Select]
Mech Infantry Regiment 2014
HQ Platoon 34
Escort Platoon 16
Admins 108
Mess 6
Medical 55
Supply & Maint 84
Infantry Company 106

Support Battalion 380
HQ 20
Admins 18 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 133
Recon Company 91
Truck Company 67

2x Infantry Battalions 417
HQ 28
Admins 20 +20
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28

3x Infantry Companys 106 /318

1x Lt Armor Battalion 391
HQ 20
Admins 19 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56

3x Light Tank Cos 91 /273

Code: (Aerospace Regiment) [Select]
Aerospace Regiment 1,533 (AFFS)
HQ 28
Admins 85
Mess 6
Medical 55
Maint & Supply 84
Infantry Co 106

Support Wing 377
HQ 28
Admins 18 +18
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & Supply 28
Engineer Co 110
AA Defence Co 103
Truck Co 67

3x Wings 264
HQ flight 7
Admins 13 +13
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & Supply 56

3x Squadrons 55 /165

Fighter Squadron 55
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Lances 12 (pilot + tech)

Engineer Co 110
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 7
4x Eng Ptlns 14/56
2x Lt/Med Veh ptlns 16/32 (4x crew + tech)
Fighter units where not something in the books, so are some what conjecture, the Engineer company is how I view engineer units, basically as Eng Platoons are half sized of regular inf units, I view the two squads "left over" are taken up by engineering vehicles. In effect a company has 2 full Strength inf platoons and 2 vehicle platoons.

Code: (Infantry Battalion, Battle armor) [Select]
AFFS/LAAF Battle Armor Battalion 603 / 632 (with extra admins)
HQ 19
Admins 29 +29
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint 56
4x Cos 119 /476

BA Company 119
HQ 7 (4x troopers + tech, 2 staff)
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 28
4x Platoons 19 /76 (16x troopers + 3 techs)
Yes this technically would mean that a Company would have 68 suits and a battalion 288 (vs 64 & 256 respectively)


Code: (Clan Cluster) [Select]
Clan Cluster Generic 707 /741 with full admins
Cmd nova 30+10 (to me all clusters have a cmd star and at lest 1 nova, so for simplicity I put it here)
Support Star 131 /165 with full admins
Battlemech Trinary 85
Battlemech Trinary 85
Battlemech Trinary 85
Elemental Trinary 145
Fighter Trinary 136

Clan Battlemech Trinary 85 personnel
HQ 5 (More for the non combat elements really)
3x Stars 15 + 15 Techs
Maint & Supply unit 42 (2 "squads" per star)
Medical 5
Mess 3

Elemental Trinary 145 personnel
HQ 5
3x Stars 75 +15 techs
Maint & Supply unit 42  (2 "squads" per star)
Medical 5
Mess 3

Clan Aserospace Fighter Trinary 136 personnel
HQ 5
3x Stars 30 + 30 Techs
Maint & Supply unit 63 (enough for 1/3rd the unit to have a full team)
Medical 5
Mess 3

Support Star 131
HQ 5
Admins 34 +34 (for higher level units)
Medical 30 (1 MASH truck)
Supply and Maintenance 56
Mess 6
And why not a Clan Cluster

Any comments?

beachhead1985

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #1 on: 14 June 2017, 07:25:17 »
This is fascinating!

And I applaud you for deciphering the data in 4SW Atlas Iⅈ I never could: it would just blur before my eyes.

You and I are on the same wavelength in terms of what we imagine for support assets; the common-canon info on large units in BT makes them almost useless because they lack support assets.

Of course, this is hardly helped by dozens of dropships which don't have any room to haul the support troops.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #2 on: 15 June 2017, 00:53:22 »
This is fascinating!

And I applaud you for deciphering the data in 4SW Atlas Iⅈ I never could: it would just blur before my eyes.

You and I are on the same wavelength in terms of what we imagine for support assets; the common-canon info on large units in BT makes them almost useless because they lack support assets.

Of course, this is hardly helped by dozens of dropships which don't have any room to haul the support troops.
Heh have you tried to read German ww2 era Gliederungen?

This is true, the current dropships would not be very good at supporting all these extra units, though I suppose thats why Mules exist...

In the end these regiments roughly avg rout to about 2,000 troops each, their is some fluff that seems to correlate with the value, when Kurita was forming his little empire in 2303 his first military invasion used 4 divisions and some 50,000 troops, while the number of regiments is unknown, going with 6 per division would net you ~2,000 per regiment. Task force serpent also had about 55,000 troops and about 22ish regiments, so again about 2,000 per regiment.
The Fed Com Civil war had 160+ regiments fighting over New Avalon, which was stated to be more than half a million troops, this is some 3,200 troops per regiment.

The Units depicted in the books are as such

Vehicle and Infantry Regiments
Regimental Battlegroup
Heavy Tank Platoon
Light Tank Platoon
1 Company of Motorized Infantry (regimental security?) -well 3 platoons of them

--Support Battalion--
HQ = Hover Platoon

-Recon Company-
Wheeled Scout
Wheeled Scout
Hover Platoon

-Artillery Battery-
Sniper Platoon
Motorized Infantry Platoon (unknown what these guys are for, spotters? crews?)
Motorized Infantry Platoon

-Transport Company-
Armored Trucks
Armored Trucks
Armored Trucks

1st Battalion--
-HQ = Hover Tank (Platoon Mass 80 to 200 tons)
-1st Company = Assault Tanks (Platoon Mass 300 to 400 tons)
-2nd Company = Heavy Tanks (Platoon Mass 200 to 300 tons)
-3rd Company = Medium Tanks (Platoon Mass 155 to 200 tons)

2nd and 3rd Battalion are the Same--
-HQ = Hover Tanks (Platoon Mass 80 to 200 tons)
-1st Company = Medium Tanks (Platoon Mass 155 to 200 tons)
-2nd Company = Medium Tanks (Platoon Mass 155 to 200 tons)
-3rd Company = Light Tanks (Platoon Mass 80 to 150 tons)

Though it's interesting that the infantry Regiment depicted is actually that of a Motorized one, with text notifying of what an "foot" infantry unit is like.
As such the Mot Infantry Regimental Org is as fallows.

--Regimental Battlegroup--
Same as Armor regiment

--Support Battalion--
The only difference is that the Hover tank platoon in the Scout Co is replaced by a Light tank platoon

1st Battalion
-HQ =  Wheeled Scout
-1st, 2nd & 3rd Companies = Motorized Infantry (made long before "Mech" infantry came to be, their the same as the current mot infantry, that is infantry with Generic transporters)

2nd Battalion
-HQ =  Wheeled Scout
-1st & 2nd Companies "Foot" Infantry (Rifle or MG)
-3rd Company "Laser" Infantry, or SRM...

3rd Battalion
-HQ = Light Tank Platoon
-1st Company = Hover Tanks
-2nd & 3rd Companies = Light Tanks

It's interesting that a motorized infantry unit is a true combined arms unit, with a battalion of light tanks, though given B-techs typical way it dose things it's not out of the question of some of these tanks are IFVs to move that "foot" battalion (unlike real life where these units would be organic to the platoon or at lest company, rather than separate companies as B-tech generally tends to do it). This is not the only time I've seen this org, in the strategic game presented in Combat operations, the org of a Mechanized infantry battalion was 2 company's of infantry and one of vehicles (at a regimental level it's effectively 2 btln inf 1 of vehicles).

As such I view that B-tech mech infantry units as 2 btlns of infantry and one of light tanks.
==================================
Inf Regiment foot
Regimental Battlegroup
Support Battalion
-Both the above units are the same as the mot infantry reg.

3x Battalions
-HQ =  Wheeled Scout
-1st & 2nd Companies "Foot" Infantry
-3rd Company "Laser" Infantry, or SRM...

====================================
Battlemechs
Mech Company
-2x Platoons
Truck Company
-4x Platoons
Artillery Company
-2x Light
-1x Hvy

Support Btln
HQ (Mech)
Company (Infantry, Tanks, Mechs or Fighters)
Company           "
Company           "

3x Battalions
HQ
3x Companys

It's a pity they never really used these orgs out side of these books as you can provide a lot of flavor for the factions in out fitting the support battalions differently as well as on a per "brigade" level

Here's what that Support battalion units brake down into, this is just the House units, the Mariks are not done as they hardly have any units in the books (just 2 regiments, hardly enough for a look into what they seem to favor.
Not all regiments had a support battalion and some did not have all three company's listed.

Davion
Regiments:14
Recon Co....12
Security Co.13
Tank Co.....4
Mech Co.....2
Fighter Sqd.8

As one can see the Davions Seem to favor a Recon Co & a Secuity Co (as almost all units listed had one of each) as for the third company a Fighter Squadron comes most often, though a few units had a extra mech company (an assault co in fact), though a Tank Co is seen in a number of units as well.

Draconis Combine
Regiments:23
Tank Co.....10
Recon Co....22
Fighter Sqd.15
Security Co.18
Inf Aslt Co.1

A bit more variation here, though a lot more units detailed, almost all had a Recon Co (only unit not to, did not have any support units out side of the "Regimental battlegroup" anyway), the most common styling are a Security Company and a Fighter Squadron, though about half had a Tank Co in place of either the Squadron or security co.

lyran
Regiments:11
Recon Co.....11
Security Co..8
Tank Co......2
Lightning Co.9
Fighter sqd..2
Jump Inf Co..1


Again every one seems to have a Recon Company with a mix of two other Companys, the most common being the Lightning Company (typically light mechs) and Security company

Laio
Regiments:~25
Recon Co......27
Security Co...17
Tank Co.......12
Fighter sqd...6
Inf Co........4

Once again Recon Companys for every one, though for the other companys a Security company and a Tank Company was the most common. Though the McCarron Regiments often ran with two Recon Cos and a Security co, and a number of Laio units did not have a support battalion.

The Regimental Battlegroup most often took the form of two mech lances, four lances of Trucks (half armored), and a company of sniper artillery (Thumpers not being present in the orgs it seems), though an alternative artillery org subbed a sniper lance for a lance of long toms. A few other alternative configurations was was the swapping of the artillery for a (extra) light mech co, or some of the trucks, artillery and or Mech lances for the same light mech co (I.e. one lance each for a extra co of mechs), or in some cases for tanks and or infantry. Another one simply swaps a Mech lance for a vehicle lance of various types (often a scout unit).
Also the Recon Company typically had Hover craft and or light wheeled or tracked vehicles.

beachhead1985

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #3 on: 15 June 2017, 17:08:52 »
Wow! never seen that German stuff presented in whole before! I need to show that to my buddy who is into Rhunes. It's neat how they blended the two ideas.

I actually feel like the infantry units are low-balled for trucks and men, but I'm reluctant to say that because I have such a hard time reading between the lines outside my own method of doing this that I`m not 100% what all is there and what it can do.

I`m also used to thinking of 40ish-man infantry platoons and 4ish platoon companies; so that`s a huge boost right there.

The math really stuns me too; the mech and infantry regiments come out the same, you're saying?

I totally agree that BT units need more support troops though and things like the security company are a key example. Where DO those guys come from at the end of most BT mech battles? Unless the story depicts a small unit like the GDL, they just seem to pop into existence as needed without any reference elsewhere.

I wonder also what you think of the theory of the major factions of the BTU Possessing anywhere from a handful to dozens of infantry and tank units we never hear mentioned for every mech regiment?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #4 on: 15 June 2017, 21:52:39 »
Wow! never seen that German stuff presented in whole before! I need to show that to my buddy who is into Rhunes. It's neat how they blended the two ideas.

I actually feel like the infantry units are low-balled for trucks and men, but I'm reluctant to say that because I have such a hard time reading between the lines outside my own method of doing this that I`m not 100% what all is there and what it can do.

I`m also used to thinking of 40ish-man infantry platoons and 4ish platoon companies; so that`s a huge boost right there.
In my own "B-tech universe" that is largely how I do it, 40 man platoons and 12 (line) platoons per battalion, with specialist units have 16 platoons (I.e. engineers, spec ops & ect), with 3 or 4 companies per battalion with a weapons company (or platoons per company).

Quote
The math really stuns me too; the mech and infantry regiments come out the same, you're saying?
Tank units generally have the largest regiments, battlemech regs actually are one of the smaller regiments, as I listed it's about 1,700 troops, infantry regiments very depending on the type Jump regiments are roughly 1,700 troops (about the same as a battlemech regiment), a basic foot regiment is a bit over 1,900 and the basic mech infantry is just over 2,000, and this has not even gone into the square formations (the base 4 layout vs base 3), which will be provided below, but it's some 3,300 troops.
Battle armor is also one of these highly variable units an AFFS style Regiment is around 2,800, where as a Kurita Battalion is going to be far far smaller (roughly 1,000 men less than it's AFFS counter part)

Quote
I totally agree that BT units need more support troops though and things like the security company are a key example. Where DO those guys come from at the end of most BT mech battles? Unless the story depicts a small unit like the GDL, they just seem to pop into existence as needed without any reference elsewhere.

I wonder also what you think of the theory of the major factions of the BTU Possessing anywhere from a handful to dozens of infantry and tank units we never hear mentioned for every mech regiment?
In general that is how it works, B-tech has a habit of largely ignoring Tank and infantry units, out side of a few well known units most are barely mentioned at all. And most of the time it's just that a mention, that theirs a number of tank and infantry units fighting along side unit X.

Kinda like the German Panzer divisions of WW2, every ones heard of Blitzkrieg and the Panzers, but most do not know much or know of the 85% of the rest of the German army, which was ~80% horse drawn infantry Divisions, most of the time you hear about one of these units it's units like the 352nd or Fallschirmjagers.

For example Take Battle armor If one where to look at what the field manuals where saying by in large all front line battlemech regiments could expect between 50 and 300 troopers by the mid 3060s

By ~3063 the AFFS had more than 40 battalions of Battle armor, their field manual mentions that by 3063 most infantry regiments attached to an RCT had a Company of Battle armor (Pg 22, BA section, third paragraph), and theirs some 40 RCTs in the AFFSs regular army (the non March militia bit), each RCT should have 5 regiments of infantry, though not all do, lets call it 160 regiments, I would say ~80% qualifys for most so about 130 companies of BA, about 33 battalions worth from the infantry regiments, with about 12 more indicated in the unit write ups (though about 4 are attached to or are part of infantry regiments).

In 3059 the Kurita FM (pg 154) mentions that if current trends continue than within a decade every DCMS regiment will have a battalion of battle armor (I assume that it's referring to Battlemech regiments rather than actually every regiment).

In the same year the FWL book mentions that they where expecting to field battalions of Longinus BA by 3064 (with a new factory on Oriente -which got delayed a bit due to WoB), at the time they where at platoon sized units.

The Lyrans where a bit less well off than the Fed Suns where in the BA department, but they did manage to deploy a full regiment of them. Though Kurita seems to have gotten their first in the regimental sized units as theirs some argument to be made as that they had a pair of them in 3052! (Battle of Luthien source book, mentions two militia regiments being equipped with Battle armor, though their unlikely to be true regiments, likely mixed)

beachhead1985

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #5 on: 16 June 2017, 07:14:38 »
I have a bad habit, when doing TO&Es of getting tangled up in details, so I have to salute you just for putting this out in whole.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #6 on: 16 June 2017, 12:20:51 »
I have a bad habit, when doing TO&Es of getting tangled up in details, so I have to salute you just for putting this out in whole.
Well I do get that when I try on doing vehicles (and to an extent small arms) for the various sub units, like how many and type should an infantry regiment have/need (personnel carriers, supply trucks, ambulances, coms vehs, weapons carriers and ect...). But doing just personnel strengths (and heavy weapons) is not to much of an issue.

beachhead1985

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #7 on: 17 June 2017, 05:34:49 »
Well I do get that when I try on doing vehicles (and to an extent small arms) for the various sub units, like how many and type should an infantry regiment have/need (personnel carriers, supply trucks, ambulances, coms vehs, weapons carriers and ect...). But doing just personnel strengths (and heavy weapons) is not to much of an issue.

The problem I ran into was part way through my TO&E realizing that in order to have a frame of reference I needed to complete my infantry weapons comparison and development project, which is almost the definition of a monolithic project in of itself.

As someone who enjoys filling in the blanks though, I was enjoying designing new support and combat vehicles to rill the roles I needed filling as I went.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

I am Belch II

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #8 on: 17 June 2017, 17:08:32 »
Those are pretty awesome nice job.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #9 on: 19 June 2017, 20:34:56 »
A few More

Code: (Infantry Regiment, Square Foot) [Select]
Square Infantry Regiment, foot
Inf Co 134
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Supply & Maint 7
4x Ptlns 112

Btln 631
HQ 28
Admins 30 +31 to reg
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 14
4x Companys 134 /536

Support Battalion 380
HQ 20
Admins 18 +19
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 133
Recon Company 91
Truck Company 67

Inf Regiment (HQ 422, Reg 3,326)
HQ Co 131
Admins 169
Mess 9
Medical 85
Supply & Maint 28
4x btlns
FWL Infantry Regiments would not be to far off from this as well, a few things that could be further modified, is an extra company in the support btln (though of what type I would not know), and modifying said btlns existing companies for a square org as well.

Code: (Battle Armor Battalion, House Kurita) [Select]
Kurita BA Battalion
BA Company 86
HQ 7 (4x troopers + tech, 2 staff)
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 35 (28x astechs, 7x techs)
3x Platoons 12/36 

Battalion 370 /388 with extra admins
HQ 15
Admins 18 +18
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint 56
3x Cos 86/258

And for something more conjecture, but very interesting, I present an Infantry Brigade!
Code: [Select]
Brigade Infantry 10,183
HQ 28
Admins 114
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

HQ Btln 704
-HQ 28
-Admins 34 +33
-Mess 3
-Medical 20
-Supply & Maint 28
--Coms Co 134
--MP Co 134
--Maint Co 134
--Medical Co 189

[i]Note: uses Square infantry Cos[/i]
 
Medical Co 189
-HQ 7
-Mess 6
-Med 5
-Maint 7
-Ambulance Ptln 28
-Ambulance Ptln 28
-Med Ptln 54 (2x MASH vehicles)
-Med Ptln 54

[i]I think I defaulted to a infantry platoon strength for the Ambulance platoons and assumed 2-4 guys per vehicle[/i]

Supply Btln 477
HQ 28
Admins 23 +23
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
5x Cos 75/ 375

[i]See Truck Company of the Battlemech regiment (4x platoons)[/i]

Foot Infantry Regiment 1,935
Foot Infantry Regiment 1,935
Foot Infantry Regiment 1,935
Foot Infantry Regiment 1,935

Eng Btln 575
HQ 28
Admins 28 +27
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110 (Engineer)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint 7
4x Eng Ptlns 14/56
2x Lt/Med Veh ptlns 16/32 (4x crew + tech)

Aty Btln 520
HQ 28
Admins 25 +25
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
-Aty Battery SP 127 (12x SP Aty)
-ADA Battery SP 127 ()
-Towed AC Battery 134 (8-16 towed ACs)
[i]Note simply the Btln only has a single battery of regular artillery, the Btln is more of a collection of "similar" systems[/i]
As such a typical infantry Regiment has to use an old term an Bayonet count of 756 (combat troops, attached to the line platoons (this dose not include the supporting Cos at regimental levels)) so the Brigade has a bit over 3,000 combat infantry, or about 30% of the over all total troops in the Brigade.

beachhead1985

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #10 on: 21 June 2017, 20:58:41 »
Very interesting; I am learning to read your style better as you post more.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

DOC_Agren

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #11 on: 17 July 2017, 16:24:10 »
Well Done, tagging this so I can follow it more
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #12 on: 19 July 2017, 03:49:04 »
A pair of Free Worlds units
An Infantry Regiment and a FWL Infantry Division

Code: [Select]
FWL Square Infantry Regiment, foot /3,385
Inf Co 134
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Supply & Maint 7
4x Ptlns 112

Btln 631
HQ 28
Admins 30 +31 to reg
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 14
4x Companys 134 /536

Support Battalion 437
HQ 20 (16+4 /60t vehs)
Admins 21 +21
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
Artillery Company 163 (8x tubes)
Recon Company 107 (16 scout vehs)
Truck Company 75 (16x trucks)

Inf Regiment
HQ Co 131
Admins 171
Mess 9
Medical 85
Supply & Maint 28
4x Inf Btlns 631
Support Btln 437
----

Artillery Company 163
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
3x Towed Artillery Batteries 90 (6 tubes)

Armored Truck Company 75
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
4x Platoons 32

Armored Recon Company 107 (up to 45 ton units)
HQ 7
Mess 3
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 28
4x Platoons 64 (48x veh crews, 16 techs)


Code: [Select]
Infantry Division 16,061
HQ 28
Admins 120
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

HQ Btln 704
-HQ 28
-Admins 34 +33
-Mess 3
-Medical 20
-Supply & Maint 28
--Coms Co 134
--MP Co 134
--Maint Co 134
--Med Co 189
 
Med Co 189 (4x MASH/20 theaters, 16x Ambi)
-HQ 7
-Mess 6
-Med 5
-Maint 7
-Ambulance Ptln 28
-Ambulance Ptln 28
-Med Ptln 54
-Med Ptln 54

Supply Btln 477
HQ 28
Admins 23 +23
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
5x Cos 75/ 375

2x Brigade HQs 204/408 (Btln staff elements (sans Tech unit) with a inf Co as HQ element)

Foot Infantry Regiment 3,385
Foot Infantry Regiment 3,385
Foot Infantry Regiment 3,385
Foot Infantry Regiment 3,385

Eng Btln 575
HQ 28
Admins 28 +27
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110
-HQ 7
-Mess 3
-Medical 5
-Maint 7
-2x Eng Ptlns 28/56
-2x Lt/Med Veh ptlns 16/32 (4x crew + tech)

Aty Btln 661
HQ 28
Admins 32 +31
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
-Aty Battery SP 127 (12x SP Aty)
-ADA Battery SP 127 (same?)
-Towed AC Battery 134 (8-16 towed ACs)
-Towed AC Battery 134 (8-16 towed ACs)
The Infantry Division is mentioned in their orgs, but not much is mentioned, One thing is mentioned is that it can have 4-5 regiments has brigade elements and IIRC can have a armor regiment attached, though FWL armor units are a bit of a mystery to me, im not exactly sure how they are organized. The org is a bit conjecture but should be reasonable.

At 16k their not to far off in size to real life formations, more with armor and or a 5th infantry regiment.


Here's a batch of conjecture formations, Fed Suns Divisions, or at lest my take on Generic Divisions, mainly for the Feds but can be used by others in generic sense.
Their mainly for my B-tech verse, and by in large are generic house formations (largely FedSun, Lyran & Kurita & Laio to an extent) further more most worlds militia forces also use a similar model.
This being a 6 regiment Division in 2 or 3 brigades, Armor Divisions are similar numbers but swap out 3 regiments for Tank Regiments, Mech infantry swap 2 infantry for tank regiments (as the 3rd regiment is part of the remaining 4 infantry regs). Some houses do modify this base line, with some Divisions having 7 to 9 regiments in 3 or 4 brigades. In some cases an armor regiment is attached to an infantry Div to beef it up a bit.

In Contrast the old (and new) SLDF Divisions are twice as large having 9 or 12 Regiments (not including Artillery, VTOLs, Fighters, Engineers and the like).

The Fed Suns RCT is a Division by another name, and could be argued is a beefed up armored division (though I typically cut the infantry from 5 to 4, basically taking a inf brigade and added a dedicated jump infantry reg.)
The LCT will be a more formal adoption and modification of a "Mech battle group", basically cutting a RCT into 3 equal portions (a Mech btln, inf Regiment, armor regiment & jump inf btln and supporting engineers, artillery and fighters.)

Personally I do not favor having VTOLs as belonging to the same units as tanks, so generally I put them in their own "wings (said wings are generally the same size as vehicle battalions and not ASF sized)"

Keep in mind the following are not exactly canon depiction of higher level units (than regiment)

As such the quick run down are as such

Code: [Select]
Nebfer's Style AFFS Infantry Division 18,164
HQ 28
Admins 165
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

Inf Security Co 106
HQ Btln 704
Supply Battalion 477
Infantry Brigade 7,419
Infantry Brigade 7,419
Artillery Battalion 513
Engineer Battalion 575
VTOL Battalion 345
Recon Troop 124
Conventional Fighter Wing 264

Code: [Select]
Nebfer's Style AFFS Armored Division 18,641
HQ 28
Admins 165
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

Inf Security Co 106
HQ Btln 704
Supply Battalion 477
Armor Brigade 7,878
Infantry Brigade 7,419
Artillery Battalion 513
Engineer Battalion 575
VTOL Battalion 345
Recon Troop 124
Conventional Fighter Wing 264

Code: [Select]
Nebfer's Style Regimental Combat Team ~25,000
HQ
HQ Btln
Supply Btln
Battlemech Brigade ~2500
Armor Brigade ~6000
Infantry Brigade ~9000
Artillery Regiment ~2,000
Engineer Regiment ~2200
Aerospace Regiment 1,533
Recon Battalion ~600
The RCT is not quite finished, so the numbers are projected, but listed to give an idea as to what it will be like, one notable change in RCTs is that the armor and infantry brigades do not have the combat auxiliary battalion (literally a Engineer and anti-tank battalion rolled into one), as I mentioned before, I my verse RCTs are slightly modified, notably dropping a inf regiment, and adding a 3rd ASF wing making a full regiment, as well as having a full artillery and Engineer regiments, Also I tend to view them having a bit of a WW2 era US combat command idea going as well, where they form a battlegroup based around each of the three brigades, with the unit spiting into 3 equal groups, each comprising of a battlemech battalion, infantry regiment, armor regiment, jump infantry battalion a battalion each of ASFs, Engineers and artillery and a Recon Troop.

Though one thing to note is that the AFFS field manual dose mention RCTs as having 2 or more battalions of Engineers (one with the Aerospace Wings and the others in the Infantry Brigade), but generally these are not listed in the later unit write ups (IIRC Armor Bdes some times mention having Engineer units, often in the form of Auxiliarys, a unit that is often comprised of artillery and engineers, I.e. Davion Hvy Guards & 6th New Syrtis Fusiliers (both an Aty Btln and two Eng btlns), though other units do have other takes on what an Auxiliary is.)

==========================
Code: [Select]
Bde 7,419 troops
HQ
HQ Btln
Inf Reg
Inf Reg
Inf Reg
Combat Aux Btln
Recon Troop

Infantry Brigade
HQ 28
Admins 82
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

HQ Btln 767
-HQ 28
-Admins 37 +36
-Mess 3
-Medical 5
-Maint 28
-MP Ptln 28
-Supply Co 75
-Coms Co 134
-Maint Co 134
-Medical Co 189

3x Infantry Regiments 1,935/5,805

Combat Auxiliary Battalion 588
HQ 28
Admins 28 +28
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & Supply 21
-Engineer Co 110
-Engineer Co 110
-Towed AC Co 134
-Towed AC Co 134

Recon Troop 124
Hq 7
Med 5
Mess 3
Techs 21
Platoon Mech Inf 28
Platoon Mech Inf 28
Platoon Lt Veh 16
Platoon Lt Veh 16


===========================
Code: [Select]
Armor Brigade 7,878
Bde troops
HQ 28
Admins 81
Mess 6
Medical 5
Maint & Supply 14

HQ Btln 767
Armor Reg 2,093
Armor Reg 2,093
Armor Reg 2,093
Combat Aux Btln 574
Recon Troop 124

Combat Auxiliary Battalion 574
HQ 28
Admins 28 +27
Mess 3
Medical 20
Maint & Supply 21
-Engineer Co 110
-Engineer Co 110
-SP AA Co 127
-SP AA Co 127

-----------------

Code: [Select]
=================
Eng Btln 575
HQ 28
Admins 28 +27
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110
Co 110 (Engineer)
-HQ 7
-Mess 3
-Medical 5
-Maint 7
-4x Eng Ptlns 14/56
-2x Lt/Med Veh ptlns 16/32 (4x crew + tech)

Aty Btln 513
HQ 28
Admins 25 +24
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
-Aty Battery SP 127 (12x SP Aty)
-Aty Battery SP 127 (12x SP Aty)
-Aty Battery SP 127 (12x SP Aty)

VTOL Btln 345
HQ 12
Admins 17 +16
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 56
-VTOL Squadron 79
-VTOL Squadron 79
-VTOL Squadron 79

Supply Btln 477
HQ 28
Admins 23 +23
Mess 3
Medical 20
Supply & Maint 28
5x Cos 75/ 375

Div HQ Btln
HQ Btln 704
-HQ 28
-Admins 34 +33
-Mess 3
-Medical 20
-Supply & Maint 28
--Coms Co 134
--MP Co 134
--Maint Co 134
--Med Co 189

truetanker

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #13 on: 04 August 2017, 15:50:39 »
Have you considered making a Liao Shadow Regiment yet?

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
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Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #14 on: 03 July 2018, 20:49:41 »
Have you considered making a Liao Shadow Regiment yet?

TT

Been a while
Don't really know what a Shadow regiment is, I generally have not read much up on the Laio side of things

truetanker

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #15 on: 03 July 2018, 21:04:39 »
Good to see your back, Nebfer!

:o

Almost a year!!!

 :o

Been a while
Don't really know what a Shadow regiment is, I generally have not read much up on the Laio side of things

Meant Xin Sheng, or Augmented Regiment, back then.

" Each 'Mech regiment of the CCAF was reorganized to include at least one Augmented Battalion "
  *  consisted of four companies of two Augmented Lances each and a command lance
    #1- 4 Mechs, 2 Vehicles
    #2- 4 Mechs, 2 Squads of BA
    #3- 4 Vehicles, 2 Mechs
    #4- 4 Vehicles, 4 Squads of BA

And most people forget that the Capellans use three ( 3 ) Aerospace per Flight, not 2.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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Nebfer

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Re: Nebfer Regimental organizations (ToEs)
« Reply #16 on: 05 July 2018, 18:26:16 »
Ah the Augmented Units

Well after playing a few campaigns of Against the Bot with MekHQ, It would seem that four tech teams per Company is adequate but dose have some limitations when you need lots of repairs done, plus the basic maintenance requirements dose eat up valuable time, as such Im currently favoring 2 full teams per lance and 24 per battalion (an extra 6 to deal with the HQ lance and some flex teams, who also likely stand in for maintenance for the units regular vehicles).
Im also going with a slightly different mess team allotment, instead of a full team of 3 (which feeds 150 per Tac ops), im doing enough to cover the unit (so 2 or 3) with one at battalion, though im also adding up the totals and adding extra to battalion to add up to full teams (if thiers 11 mess team members in the btln I add a extra guy to btln to have 4 full teams).

Well here's a Augmented Battlemech Battalion

Simple ToE
Battalion HQ
Cmd Lance
4x Augmented Companies
-2x Augmented Lances

Detailed ToE

Augmented Company 92
Co HQ Section 7
Medical Team 5
Mess Team 2
Maintenance & Supply Group 42
2x Augmented Lances 18 each
-4x MW
-2x Veh Crews (4 crew each)
-6x Techs

Augmented Battalion 504 personnel
HQ 28
Cmd Lance (augmented) 18
Btln Admins 24 +24 to Regimental HQ
Maintince & Supply Group 42
Medical Ptln 20
Mess Team 4
4x Augmented Companies 92 each


============================
A Regular Battlemech Battalion for comparison (using my current concepts)

Company 80 personnel
HQ 7
Mess Team 2
Medical Team 5
Maint & supply Group 42
3x Lances 8 personnel each
-4x MW
-4x Techs

Battalion 358
HQ 28
Cmd Lance 8
Btln Admins 17 + 18 to Regimental
Maintenance & Supply Group 42
Medical Ptln 20
Mess Team 3
3x Companies 80 each

Additions for a reinforced (4 company) Battalion
Admins 4 + 4 to regimental
Mess Team 1
Battlemech Co 80
Battalion Totals 443