Author Topic: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion  (Read 27913 times)

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #270 on: 27 March 2023, 10:35:58 »
There's more work being done.  There will be an update posted once it's ready.
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Fear Factory

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #271 on: 27 March 2023, 12:36:20 »
There's more work being done.  There will be an update posted once it's ready.

Thats awesome.

I know I was loud about it. Now that I can see what's actually going on with the kickstarter I think it's a neat idea. A lot of the tweaks in here look like good ideas.
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Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #272 on: 28 March 2023, 21:43:52 »
New draft of the rules has been submitted.  We're checking on the feasibility of a second round of playtesting, but schedules may or may not allow that.  If it does, we'll continue on in this thread as before.
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DevianID

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #273 on: 02 April 2023, 02:41:03 »
Fingers crossed some of my math made an impact!

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #274 on: 11 April 2023, 14:46:22 »
There is to be a new beta round.  I will likely be on vacation when it opens, so I'm posting about it now.  Once it's announced and the files are made available, feel free to begin a new round of discussion in this thread.

I'm 95% looking for analysis of the costs and general balance this time around.  The rules are largely set at this point, though small changes (and of course clarifications to vague/broken wording) can be made.  But I'm not interested in mass recosting efforts and that sort.  Analysis needs to be limited to the system actually being tested.

Thanks all.  There were a lot of adjustments made as a result of feedback, and I think it's stronger as a result.  But I want to make sure the costing balance is good: this is far and away my biggest concern.
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jasonf

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #275 on: 29 April 2023, 19:02:39 »
Okay, here is my tl;dr summary of playtesting the V2 rules and Assets/Strikes. I played 6 games, setting them up to try and test some gut-check guesses on what might be some remaining issues. I put the summary of the playtests at the end.

Notes on Rules Clarifications (PDF):
1. p. 3: The infantry stacking rules under "Urban Movement" near the top of the page seem to contradict the rules for "Infantry Stacking," unless the rules intend to allow fewer infantry assets in buildings/on roofs than in the open.
2. p. 6 (APC X): What is the TMM of an Inf or BA Asset during the Turn it deploys? Zero or does it get its actual TMM?
3. p. 11 (Artillery Strikes): For pre-designating artillery hexes, does "before play" mean "before deployment" or "before Turn 1"? [probably should explicitly be before deployment, so you cannot pre-designate emplacement hexes.]
4. p. 11 (Artillery Strikes): Do pre-designated artillery strikes land the Turn they are announced, or do they wait one round like targeted strike?

Potential Asset Stat Errata:
These aren't necessarily balance issues, but stats that seemed out of step with the other revisions, so I thought I'd check to see if they were intentional.
5. Should the MASH Asset have movement of 5w or 8w?  If it's 5w, should the other support Assets also have their Cruise MP (i.e., Mobile HQ = 6w, Long Tom = 2t)?
6. Should the Mobile Long Tom have TMM = +1 or +0? (Behemoth, with same MP, has TMM = +0)

Balance/Rules Comments:
Overall, I think the rules are much, much more clear and balanced. I know you are more interested in the last category, so these are just the issues that stuck out from the latest playtesting.
7. Battle armor (still) cannot use the Swarm special vs. a 'Mech given the initiative rules. I cannot think of anything besides Lance/group movement for Asset initiative to solve the issue, though.
8. I know they've already been buffed, but I felt like an across-the-board +1 to the Check values for all vehicles and Battle Armor would balance everything well, especially since the TMMs were nerfed (making them a bit easier to hit). Check = 9 seemed like the sweet spot for Assets being at least somewhat durable. I think a +1 for all of these would make the BA and assault tanks durable enough to warrant their costs (in both BSP and asymmetric BV terms) while the buffs of the others to Checks = 7 or 8 shouldn't increase their durability too much.

Cost Balancing Comments:
Overall, I thought these were a lot better, too, with the exception of the Strikes, which seemed too expensive for what you get.
For Assets, it seemed like the BSP costs were close to 30 BV/BSP, +X BSP for good Specials, -X BSP for bad specials. This seemed legit, especially since the Assets that seemed too cheap/expensive below were usually ones that deviated from this formula.
9. Skulker, Galleon -- these two seemed a few BSP too expensive relative to the other Assets. They aren't doing too much damage, and they usually die within a turn or two of getting into firing range (so almost like half-strength Thumper strikes with a somewhat better to-hit roll). I'd be willing to pay more around 11 BSP for the Skulker and 10 BSP for the Galleon.
10. Manticore -- this seemed a few BSP too cheap for what you get. It's as chonky as the Behemoth defensively, but twice as fast, and can dish out decent damage at range. I'd say it should be closer to the 28-30 BSP cost range.
11. Behemoth -- this also seemed a few BSP to cheap, at least compared to the other assault tanks. In general, the speed of the heavier tanks mattered less in game as their ability to dish out and absorb damage, so the fact that the same damage at the Schrek and almost as much damage as the Demolisher and Behemoth while being more durable matters. Plus, the drop from +2 to +1 TMM isn't the same as +1 to +0 TMM in-game because the +0 TMM Asset can get back to +1 by parking in light woods (while the others usually give up the terrain bonus under the revised rules)
12. Ontos, Schrek -- I felt these could have their BSP buffed a couple of points (so BSP = 32 and 30, respectively...) I'm indifferent between the Ontos and Demolisher in terms of stats, since the 4 fewer points are offset by the 2x more rolls and IF1 special on the Ontos. I also also think the extra damage roll and greater range of the Schreck relative to the Demolisher almost offsets its weaker Check.
13. Mobile Long Tom  -- who knows?!? 77 seems steep, but the Artillery Special is kinda crazy. Maybe if it had some minimum range, it'd warrant a saner value in the 40-48 range? It seems if I was playing with only 96 BSP, I would never, never, never take this Asset.
14. Emplacements -- despite being immobile and fixed, they're actually pretty durable on the tabletop, especially if you put them up on wooded hills or something similar. Because of this, I felt like a few more BSP (so they are in the 11-13 BSP cost range would balance them a bit better)
15. Air Strikes -- I thought that, in general, these were a bit too expensive for what you got. It's only a single shot for the game per card, so they are really more like a light vehicle asset on steroids (in terms of the damage they do). Because of that, it's hard to justify paying BSP for some of the heavier strikes relative so say, a Condor or Pegasus instead. I would say that 2-3 fewer BSP per Strike/Bomb would be more balanced, so maybe -2 BSP for Light Aero and -3 BSP for Heavy Aero and Strafe (and them maybe -1 BSP for the Cover/Bluff)
16. Artillery Strikes -- these were certainly not worth their current costs, especially since it now clarifies you get only one pre-determined or targeted shot per Strike. Needing an 8+ to hit should not be underestimated, even though you get decent damage. You could probably get away with nerfing the Thumper down to 11-12 BSP, but then the Sniper and Long Tom values should not scale up as much as they do, perhaps something closer to 14-16 BSP for Sniper and 18-21 for Long Tom would be more worth it relative to Assets with similar BSP values
17. Asymmetric scenario costs -- the formula uses 20 BV/BSP when you have asymmetric BSP on the board. This seemed too cheap since the conversion was closer to 30 BSP/BV in terms of the actual stats. At the same time, when I played asymmetric Mechs/Assets vs. all Assets, the Asset-only side got crushed. This might have been because the assault tanks were still too fragile, though (see #8 above), so may it's okay in the end after all.


Playtests and Results:
I played 6 games and just used the same pairs of 'Mechs valued around 3100 BV for each pair. All 'Mechs had G3/P4 skill. I tried to play a mix of Assets and Strikes, and symmetric and asymmetric setups.
Pairs were:
Blackjack-O (omni), Firestarter-O (omni);   Bushwacker X1, Crab 20;   Centurion 10D, Sentinel 6S;   Dragonfly J, Locust IIC (std);   Puma E, Uller Prime
Games:
Game 1 (balanced IS, 96 BSP Assets each): Team A: Blackjack/Firestarter, 2x IS BA, 2x Jump Inf, 2x Maxim, 2x Vedette  vs.  Team B: Bushwacker/Crab, 2x Condor, 2x Pegasus, 4x Galleon, 2x Pegasus
Result: Team B won in a close, balanced match with 1 'Mech and 1 Asset surviving
Game 2 (asymmetric IS, 4 'Mechs + 64 BSP Assets vs. 374 BSP Assets): Team A: Blackjack/Firestarter, Centurion/Sentinel 2x IS BA, 2x Manticore  vs.  Team B: 4x Schrek, 4x Manticore, 2x Behemoth, 2x LRM Carrier, 2x VTOL, 2x Galleon
Result: Team A won in a rout, with half the Team B Assets dead by Turn 4. Team A did lose 2 'Mechs and 3 of 4 Assets, though
Game 3 (semi-asymmetric IS, 96 BSP Assets vs. 96 BSP Strikes): Team A: Bushwacker/Crab, 2x Manticore, 2x Vedette, 2x IS BA  vs.  Team B: Centurion/Sentinel, 5x Thumper Strikes, 1x Lt Aero Strike, 1x Lt Aero Bomb
Result: Team A won in a rout. Lost 1 'Mech to a head-cap and 2 Assets, but 2 'Mechs of Team B were simply outgunned once they ran out of Strikes (which was quickly)
Game 4 (IS mixed Strikes/Assets/Emplacements, 96 BSP each): Team A: Centurion/Sentinel, 2x Manticore, 4x Med Emplacements, 1x Lt Aero Bomb  vs.  Team B: Blackjack/Firestarter, 2x VTOL, 2x IS BA, 4x Thumper Strikes
Result: Team A won in a rout. The 'Mechs took little damage and 2 emplacements remained. Again, the side with more BSP in Strikes was quickly at a disadvantage.
Game 5 (balanced Clan, 96 BSP Assets each): Team A: Dragonfly/Locust IIC, 5x Elemental (4 VT, 1 RG), 1x Strafe  vs.  Team B: Puma/Uller, 5x Elemental, 2x Hvy Aero Strike
Result: Team B won in a close, balanced match with only 1 'Mech surviving
Game 6 (Clan mixed Assets/Strikes/Emplacements, 96 BSP Assets each): Team A: Dragonfly/Locust IIC, 2x Elemental (2 VT), 3x Heavy Aero Bomb vs.  Team B: Puma/Uller, 2x Elemental, 2x Med Emplacement, 2x Lt Emplacement, 1x Hvy Aero Bomb, 1x Lt Aero Bomb
Result: Team B won in a close, balanced match (that was only one lasting to Turn 12) with only 1 'Mech surviving





Thunder

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #276 on: 14 May 2023, 00:25:07 »
I take it the V2 rules came out?  Since I never noticed an announcement.  Where can I find a copy?

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #277 on: 14 May 2023, 01:01:54 »
One of the KS updates.
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Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #278 on: 14 May 2023, 02:27:02 »
I take it the V2 rules came out?  Since I never noticed an announcement.  Where can I find a copy?

Update 28 had a link to the new beta.  Bear in mind that the due date for feedback is the 15th.  While I might be able to take feedback past that for an undetermined number of days, I can't guarantee it, so if you want to contribute, you'll likely need to move fast.
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DevianID

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #279 on: 27 May 2023, 02:10:12 »
Missed the update sadly; some post date observations...

The MP I like, just a few inconsistencies.  The vtol doesn't have a +4 (5 TMM score from 10+hexes and airborne) it only has a 3 TMM.  Consistency is key in my opinion for this, which applies to the stuff below.

Someone else pointed out the long tom has a 1 instead of a 0.

Jump infantry has a 2, should have a 1 (3 mp, jump, -1 from asset average).  Battle armor have the squad bonus, so them at 2 TMM makes sense.

Id like the infantry keyword to be on all the infantry, battle armor and field guns just to remove the ambiguity for who counts as infantry.  A simple keyword instead of lots of exceptions is better for a beginner product.  Instead of having a rule saying field guns can spot like infantry, leaving ambiguity for what they are, just putting an explicit infantry tag and all that goes with it greatly reduces rules bloat/confusion.

Id clean up the double damage to infantry by linking it properly to AE, not artillery (artillery does AE damage of course).

My position on the points value hasnt changed: all these unit in V2 have a calculated BV using the tech manual formulas, and the presented units dont match the BV math when compared to each other and they also dont match the existing battle values from total warfare.  Things like indirect fire, at 35 damage, don't match the direct fire, at 27,on the LRM carrier.  Little stuff but it adds up to unsatisfying asset use.  Like before destroy TNs are too low, but instead of fixing low DCTNs the price of strikes was greatly raised.  Heck the behemoth had its DCTN lowered.

From a value standpoint, if I bought a force pack of 8 vehicles, which costs more then a force pack of 4 mechs, as a customer id expect the 8 unit more expensive box set to be at a slight advantage as shown by price, assuming you fairly compare weight classes(light mrch force packs to light bee force packs).  But an inner sphere heavy lance will trash the tank guy who bought the heavy tank box set using these rules, which wouldnt be the case if the tanks stats were set to lore accurate numbers--higher DCTNs, more direct damage, higher support vee costs.  I still fail to see why the stats shouldn't be set to the lore accurate numbers when all it takes is changing 3 number values on the cards.

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #280 on: 09 June 2023, 19:14:39 »
Closing out the thread, as the last of the beta feedback has been integrated.  I want to thank everyone for participating: the final version is a lot more solid for all your feedback (jasonf: ultimately I did wind up upping all the check values by 1 like you suggested), and I'm excited to hear about play results down the road.  Cheers.
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