Questions about Advanced Elementals

[Inspector2311]

A few questions about Advanced Elementals (the sub-caste) from AToW. (see pp. 59, 61, 69)

1) Where, in the lore, did they originate?  Another sourcebook?  A novel?  Which one?  There isn't a whole lot of background information on them in AToW and I wouldn't mind knowing more.

2) Is it just me, or does their lifepath not really... do anything?  That is, anything different from a regular elemental.  I made a regular elemental and an "advanced" one, and it didn't really offer any kind of physical difference that wouldn't just be obviated when you optimize and spend discretionary points.  If anything, it just locks them into a higher vehicle?  Mostly, it all just kind of evened out in the end.  Did I do something wrong?  Or, was this intentional?  Are they supposed to be different?  If so, how?

[Inspector2311]

So, just checking in on this?  Does anyone know what book or source Advanced Elementals came from?  Was it AToW itself, or something else?

Did I, perhaps, post this in the wrong place?  Is this more a question for "ask the authors?"

[Daryk]

Sorry, I'm not a clan fan, and figured one of them would point you in the right direction.  AToW page 69 has it as an option under "Trueborn Sibko" as "Elemental (Advanced)".  So it's a training regime, not a phenotype.

[Inspector2311]

It is a training program as well, yes, but I was under the impression that it was also something more.  Page 59 calls it "the Elemental-Advanced sub-caste."  Page 61 lists "Clan Castes," and has a separate entry for "Elemental" and "Elemental-Advanced."  So it's giving different points for attributes, traits, etc, even before the sibko training.

[Daryk]

That's an Affiliation (Stage 0 Module), so it's still training (culture) based, not a Phenotype.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The upgraded phenotype would be the even later (and possibly forgotten/discarded) Elstar

[Maelwys]

It isn't a phenotype, its just an indication that the Ghost Bears and Hell's Horses focus more on their Elementals more than other factions do. Its more a fluff thing.

With optimization and spending XP later on the effects of it are pretty muted when it comes to hard crunch for the numbers, and might have been better left as just a difference in the sibko training rather than a full subcaste.

[Inspector2311]

That's an Affiliation (Stage 0 Module), so it's still training (culture) based, not a Phenotype.

That's a good point.  I suppose that points fairly strongly against a different phenotype or new genetic development.  Of course, that still leaves the question of what, precisely, it means to be a different caste or sub-caste, but I suppose "advanced training" will have to do, as an explanation.

With optimization and spending XP later on the effects of it are pretty muted when it comes to hard crunch for the numbers, and might have been better left as just a difference in the sibko training rather than a full subcaste.

It does seem very muted, indeed, to me.  Perhaps a little too muted; which is to say, more than intended.  If I had to guess, I'd venture that the designer(s) didn't realize that giving negative charisma doesn't actually do anything when a character is already below the attribute minimum.  (i.e., they're forced to put all those points right back in there, regardless.)  And, thus, any positives that it "buys" are... well, not really bought at all.  Ah, well.

[Paul]

It's a training program, not a phenotype or sub caste.

[Inspector2311]

It's a training program, not a phenotype or sub caste.

I think you're right, and that does seem to be the consensus.  It is the explanation that seems to present the least amount of contradictions.

...It just makes it a bit confusing for it to not be a sub-caste when Page 59 literally calls it, "the Elemental-Advanced sub-caste."  Heh.

[Paul]

The only example, it's referenced as training just about everywhere else.
We'll fix page 59

[Inspector2311]

The only example, it's referenced as training just about everywhere else.
We'll fix page 59

Oh, nice - thanks!