Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!  (Read 221216 times)

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1110 on: 19 August 2020, 15:03:24 »
...deep hypocrisy in Clan psychology.

Well, yeah. The one constant in ALL the Clans of Kerensky is that hypocrisy is their single most defining attribute.
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Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1111 on: 19 August 2020, 16:32:26 »
It is convenient to personalize the issue, substituting Malvina for the circumstances and structures that produced, developed, and enabled her. After all, Malvina is just a mortal: what if solving our problems was as simple as one person dying? That would be a relief. But all the forces that she has been able to exploit and direct will still exist after her death. What we lose if we lose her is the gravity well pulling all this momentum into an orbit. The historical tension within CJF has always been between conservatism and aggression, with the former generally prevailing at its own longterm expense. The dam has finally burst and Malvina rode the crest of the resulting flood to become Khan and potentially ilKhan. Whatever clan prevails will necessarily have to leave behind what it was and become something new. Transformation is a special challenge for CJF. Not just in political terms but also psychologically Malvina represents the only chance CJF has to cross that threshold, or else perish into stagnation and diminishment.

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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1112 on: 20 August 2020, 00:46:15 »
It is convenient to personalize the issue, substituting Malvina for the circumstances and structures that produced, developed, and enabled her. After all, Malvina is just a mortal: what if solving our problems was as simple as one person dying?

In the Clans, though? We've seen examples of one individual altering the course of an entire Clan to that Clan's detriment, yet this continues until someone is Warrior enough to best that Khan. Until that happens, the Khan's authority is absolute. If you don't agree with Malvina's ways, we've seen rigged Trials as in The Anvil, and I doubt the Raptor Keshik earned their reputation as vicious thugs and enforcers lightly. There is a power structure underneath Malvina Hazen to be sure that agrees with her methods and supports her actions, but we've also seen plenty of the traditionalist Clan Jade Falcon still alive and well in the Dark Age.

I put great emphasis on the last sentence of the summary on the Raptor Keshik in FM3145: "While Malvina lives, the Raptor Keshik will set the tone and direction for what it means to be a warrior in Clan Jade Falcon." And when she doesn't live any longer, the Falcons can start to get back to be being the Clan that they've been for centuries.

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Transformation is a special challenge for CJF. Not just in political terms but also psychologically Malvina represents the only chance CJF has to cross that threshold, or else perish into stagnation and diminishment.

You speak as though the Falcons have never been laid low before. Malvina represents the crucible to either continue down the road that sees the Falcons cast much of what makes them Clan in order to secure quicker and easier victories at the expense of their souls, or they turn back towards some semblance of the ways of the Clans as the Great Founder laid out. Otherwise, you may as well be cheering for the Amaris Empire or the Word of Blake at their most terrible.

In my opinion (which no one asked for), the Falcons should lose out to the Wolves but Malvina isn't killed or removed from power. Rather, when presented with the ilClan she would reluctantly admit that her doctrine was wrong, otherwise she would have won. She then leads the Falcons as the ardent supporters of a new Star League led by ilClan Wolf.

I dunno, I thought Shattered Fortress makes a clear statement on what Malvina thought of a Wolf ilClan-ship, in her own words no-less. She was disagreeable to the thought.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1113 on: 20 August 2020, 04:50:33 »
The only way that “everything goes back to normal” in the wake of Malvina’s death is if ... the writer completely goofs the fiction. Malvina (a) is who she is and (b) came to power for reasons that run deep in CJF history/culture/psychology, going back to the time of Elizabeth Hazen. Malvina is constantly dismissed as some kind of aberration or even intrusion — possibly because of the origin of the Mongol Doctrine being CHH; possibly because of a nostalgia-driven or even WoR-era style obsession with purity among Clan enthusiasts. Rather she embodies how a century of warfare in the Inner Sphere has worn on CJF’s dysfunctional identity. It goes back to when Nicholas permanently imprinted an inferiority complex on CJF by joining Clan Wolf and CJF responding to this crisis with brutal internal suppression in the name of absolute loyalty and honor. The Culling is eerily echoed by Malvina’s own approach to CJF politics, except the external referent is no longer Nicholas’s vision of glorious Clan society but rather the savagery of the Dark Age.
« Last Edit: 20 August 2020, 13:15:09 by Manchu »

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1114 on: 20 August 2020, 07:01:27 »
Another item many CJF fans have to take into consideration is how easy you had it.  During the invasion you had fewer terrorist acts, every attack against the Lyrans were always successful, and despite the Society uprising you never had a fundamental shift in your attitude.  In short you can be compared to the Federated Commonwealth before Katherine where you can do no wrong.  I am not trying to say you deserve Malvina but remember every faction has had its share of insane/mentally unstable leaders and I find most Falcon warriors in fiction to be more lenient than what the sourcebooks suggest.

You also assume the the iClan era will be peaceful but think on this few people know Alaric Wards genetic history do you really think other clans will follow an Inner Sphere freebirth willingly?  This is also battletech not Peacetech like the Third Succession war it may be that it took a hundred years for the borders to be stable enough for a correct map to be made. 

Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1115 on: 20 August 2020, 13:19:47 »
The only way that “everything goes back to normal” in the wake of Malvina’s death is if ... the writer completely goofs the fiction. Malvina is (a) who she is and (b) came to power for reasons that run deep in CJF history/culture/psychology, going back to the time of Elizabeth Hazen.

Disagree. My reading of it is the Falcon's continue on their descent is because Malvina still controls that course. Even on the final drive to Terra, her orders were followed only with great reluctance because the end of being ilClan justified the means. When that ends evaporates, so too will the hold of Malvina's brand of Mongol philosophy over the Falcons. When you're sick, you take your medicine not because you like the taste, but because it has to be done. She's the Asa Taney or Raina Montose of the 32nd Century, and there's only one cure to a sickness that deeply-rooted.

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It goes back to when Nicholas permanently imprinted an inferiority complex on CJF by joining Clan Wolf and CJF’s responed to this crisis with brutal internal suppression in the name of absolute loyalty and honor. The Culling is eerily echoed by Malvina’s own approach to CJF politics, except the external referent is no longer Nicholas’s vision of glorious Clan society but rather the savagery of the Dark Age.

Don't use The Culling to justify Malvina. Falcon Warriors were actively and publicly calling into question not only Nicholas Kerensky's ability to lead, but the value of his new caste-based society and began to voice a desire to break with the unity. The Falcon Khans correctly identified this as treasonous, and responded as the Falcons do. The Falcons see the Culling as proof of their dedication to do whatever it takes to stay true to the ideals of Kerensky in their own way, the exact polar opposite to paying lip service to the old ways while you flaunt brutality and employ nuclear weapons and target noncombatants to make a battle quicker and easier as Malvina would tell you to do. You're kidding yourself badly if you believe Malvina to be anything other than another manifestation of the extremes that Kerensky's "Might Makes Right" philosophy can be taken to, which we've absolutely seen before. The Jaguars got away with it for so long because no one was strong enough to dictate otherwise to them, it is the same for Malvina. Any event that sees her removed is going to see many of her most ardent supporters dead as well, which will go a great length towards clearing the slate of the bastardized Mongol Doctrine.

Another item many CJF fans have to take into consideration is how easy you had it.  During the invasion you had fewer terrorist acts, every attack against the Lyrans were always successful, and despite the Society uprising you never had a fundamental shift in your attitude.  In short you can be compared to the Federated Commonwealth before Katherine where you can do no wrong.  I am not trying to say you deserve Malvina but remember every faction has had its share of insane/mentally unstable leaders and I find most Falcon warriors in fiction to be more lenient than what the sourcebooks suggest.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but I'm going to assume not. The Falcons did not have it so easy during the Invasion. They lost Twycross and their flagship Cluster, Black Earth, Somerset for a little while, and Pandora. Were it not for the failure at Luthien, the Falcons would have easily lost the most of the Invaders. They were antagonists in several Stackpole novels, which is always a fun position to be in I can assure you as a Jaguar player, and while the Jade Phoenix books did much to balance that equation, it was still fairly stacked against. In less than a year they went from one of the mightiest Clans to one of the sorriest, and won the Refusal War only because Ulric sent a large part of his Touman off to survive in the IS instead of seeing the fight through to the very end. Marthe had to eat crow at Coventry when some IS princeling offered her Hegira and she was forced to accept to save most of what was left of her Touman. The whole Viper War thing is absolutely a godsend from the TPTB, but they made minimal gains during the FCCW Incursion thanks to Archer Christifori and his band of merry men. The Society initially ate their lunch during the Jihad and saw a complete caste Annihilated as a result. The DA has seen the Falcons rise and the Lyrans fall, but I am 99% certain there is a karmic backlash coming with the ilClan book.
« Last Edit: 20 August 2020, 13:22:13 by Crimson Dynamo »
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

CJC070

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1116 on: 20 August 2020, 19:15:37 »

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but I'm going to assume not. The Falcons did not have it so easy during the Invasion. They lost Twycross and their flagship Cluster, Black Earth, Somerset for a little while, and Pandora. Were it not for the failure at Luthien, the Falcons would have easily lost the most of the Invaders. They were antagonists in several Stackpole novels, which is always a fun position to be in I can assure you as a Jaguar player, and while the Jade Phoenix books did much to balance that equation, it was still fairly stacked against. In less than a year they went from one of the mightiest Clans to one of the sorriest, and won the Refusal War only because Ulric sent a large part of his Touman off to survive in the IS instead of seeing the fight through to the very end. Marthe had to eat crow at Coventry when some IS princeling offered her Hegira and she was forced to accept to save most of what was left of her Touman. The whole Viper War thing is absolutely a godsend from the TPTB, but they made minimal gains during the FCCW Incursion thanks to Archer Christifori and his band of merry men. The Society initially ate their lunch during the Jihad and saw a complete caste Annihilated as a result. The DA has seen the Falcons rise and the Lyrans fall, but I am 99% certain there is a karmic backlash coming with the ilClan book.

I’m not trying to be trolling. Yes the Jade Falcons have had setbacks and remember they did come out better during the Operation Audacity and gained many planets including Blair Atholl to let their newer members blood themselves against Lyran troops which was one reason for the incursion.  There was a system that even refused Christofris forces which I always found odd.  Also after they repulsed the Vipers they were met with cheers not jeers from the planets they took back. 

From the limited literature after the Wars of Reaving I felt there was still tension and some resistance in letting freeborn scientists work for the Jade Falcons more sensitive projects.  I have to say one issue I have with the Jade Falcons is the tendency to look down on freebirths as part of their culture and there seems to be no noticeable repercussions on their society. 

Thanks for your input I will watch what I say in the future.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1117 on: 20 August 2020, 21:11:42 »
I’m not trying to be trolling. Yes the Jade Falcons have had setbacks and remember they did come out better during the Operation Audacity and gained many planets including Blair Atholl to let their newer members blood themselves against Lyran troops which was one reason for the incursion.  There was a system that even refused Christofris forces which I always found odd.  Also after they repulsed the Vipers they were met with cheers not jeers from the planets they took back. 

You are quite right on the 3064 Incursion, I was clearly misremembering the scope of the Falcons' success. The FCCWSB states they gained 13 star systems, easily double what I thought they had. Mea Culpa.

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I have to say one issue I have with the Jade Falcons is the tendency to look down on freebirths as part of their culture and there seems to be no noticeable repercussions on their society.

That's not exactly unique to the Falcons though, that's more Clan society in general. The Jaguars banned Freeborn from their Warrior Caste I believe right up until the end, and the Vipers experimented with allowing Frees for a few years only, after Perigard Zalman got shown up on Waldorff up to the rise of Brett Andrews and his brand of purity. Of course, nobody but the Falcons have ever let a Freebirth compete for and hold a Bloodname, but that seems to be a one-off, special case.

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Thanks for your input I will watch what I say in the future.

I just couldn't tell if you were intentionally trying to yank on Falcon chains or not. If one of the red BattleMasters tell you to watch what you say, by all means listen. If I do it, you can in all confidence tell me where to stick that sentiment. It's all good.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

CJC070

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1118 on: 20 August 2020, 21:24:46 »

I just couldn't tell if you were intentionally trying to yank on Falcon chains or not. If one of the red BattleMasters tell you to watch what you say, by all means listen. If I do it, you can in all confidence tell me where to stick that sentiment. It's all good.

I can be pretty blunt in person and online.  I also appreciate any mature responses to any comment that can go to far.  The only people I like to yank are the ones who take this too seriously or fanfic writers who one-eighty characters someone else created.

I hope that if the Jade Falcons are absorbed by anyone their legacy lives on in the community.  Similar to the Ice Hellions and ELH in the Scorpion Empire.  Not like the Nova Cats in the Draconis Combine and any other clan absorbed.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1119 on: 20 August 2020, 21:26:53 »
From the limited literature after the Wars of Reaving I felt there was still tension and some resistance in letting freeborn scientists work for the Jade Falcons more sensitive projects.  I have to say one issue I have with the Jade Falcons is the tendency to look down on freebirths as part of their culture and there seems to be no noticeable repercussions on their society. 


The Jade Falcons don't have Smoke Jaguar levels of treatment of Freebirths in thier clan. It seems that since the Falcons are a Crusader clan that everyone thinks we are out there mistreating everyone that isn't a bloodnamed trueborn. I've always viewed the way the Jade Falcons run thier clan as everyone has thier place, everyone does thier job, and everyone gets treated as deserved. Cause problems and you are going to get dealt with. Getting dealt with in Clan culture isn't nice. Maybe life is better under the Jade Falcons then the Lyran Commonwealth because everyone has a job and everyone has a home and food. Clans don't waste resources. Everyone on a planet is going to be put to work. Everyone is going to be taken care of.


You also made a comment about the Jade Falcons never have had to make a fundamental shift in attitude. That's the strength of the Jade Falcons. The Falcons are a strong clan with strong beliefs in what they are doing. They have never stopped in their goal of taking Terra and have kept moving towards it despite all the challenges that they have gone through. There has never been a moment of questioning what they are doing, there is looking at the situation and seeing what needs to be done to keep moving forward.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1120 on: 20 August 2020, 22:00:01 »
The freeborns with bloodnames isn't unique to the Falcons, but it's not common either. Obviously there's Phelan with the Wolves. And Ragnar with the Bears although instead of him claiming an existing name, his has become a new bloodname.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1121 on: 20 August 2020, 22:16:18 »
The freeborns with bloodnames isn't unique to the Falcons, but it's not common either. Obviously there's Phelan with the Wolves. And Ragnar with the Bears although instead of him claiming an existing name, his has become a new bloodname.


Freeborns with Bloodnames are more common with the Wolves and the Ghost Bears to my knowledge the only freebirth Falcon to receive a bloodname was Diane Pryde.  Actually I think there is more than one new Ghost Bear Bloodname but this might be a shift to allow lesser castes have their surnames back.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1122 on: 20 August 2020, 23:07:55 »
You also made a comment about the Jade Falcons never have had to make a fundamental shift in attitude. That's the strength of the Jade Falcons. The Falcons are a strong clan with strong beliefs in what they are doing. They have never stopped in their goal of taking Terra and have kept moving towards it despite all the challenges that they have gone through. There has never been a moment of questioning what they are doing, there is looking at the situation and seeing what needs to be done to keep moving forward.

I am way out of date on my lore, but this guy gets it (not commenting on whether he approves of CJF or not). When I was a kid, I loved the Wolves. Lots of principled characters getting crushed for their principles. By the end of the Refusal War, all their A listers (everyone named Kerensky) are dead and they've fled to the inner sphere.  Tragic, much Shakespeare.  As an adult, I love Jade Falcon. You can keep dying on those Warden hills, I guess, whatever that means, or look at the Inner Sphere and say, Deploy the summoners.  Joanna and Aidan Pryde might be my favorite Battletech characters. You can lay down and die for some vague principles that no one appreciates like the Wolves, or keep fighting for what you want, like Jade Falcon. I am rooting for CJF.
« Last Edit: 21 August 2020, 16:33:12 by Renard »

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1123 on: 21 August 2020, 04:06:47 »
Very high quality discussion going on ITT, very enjoyable.

I am not using the Culling to justify Malvina’s leadership, and indeed couldn’t do so, because I don’t consider the Culling to be a positive thing. To the contrary, I see the Culling as a deeply unhealthy reaction to Nicholas (unintentionally?) humiliating CJF by joining Clan Wolf.

The way I see it, CJF as a faction has an arc in a similar way to how an individual character has an arc and it can be understood analogically in psychological terms. In its formative period, CJF faced a crisis that deeply threatened its sense of identity. Rather than process this crisis transformatively, CJF brutally repressed the resulting trauma. The product was a coping mechanism of repressing anxiety by scrupulous adherence to and identification with a strict interpretation of Clan culture.

As far as coping mechanisms go, this worked pretty well in the context of Clan history prior to and during the early stages of the Invasion. But as it became clear that the presumptively inferior Spheroids could exploit the formal aspects of Clan culture, exceptions began to be made. Oh of course these would be justified by doubling down on the inferiority of the Spheroids, who could be said not to merit honorable treatment. But the truth was simple: the customs of Clan culture were in danger of being subordinated to the practical objective of simply winning, which would be the inarguable validation of the Clans to not only the subjugated Spheroids but also and more importantly to the Clans themselves.

Now, this dynamic struck directly at the heart of CJF’s coping mechanism. The rationalization for suspending rigid observance of Clan culture started to become just as important as Clan culture or, more precisely, incorporated into it. For some Clans, this would not pose an insurmountable contradiction: they would simply change, and even do so consciously. But for CJF change felt like deviance, unfaithfulness, disloyalty. Whether CJF won more than it lost over the years is not the issue. Rather the issue is, every battle became that much harder because there was not only the literal enemy to fight but also the enemy within, the temptation to reform, adapt, change. CJF needed its repression coping mechanism more than ever.

Nonetheless, change is inevitable. Almost a century of fighting in the Inner Sphere necessarily changed all the Invading Clans to the point of turning their backs on Clan Space and their Abjuration. In the face of it all, repression became less a means to cope and more a straightforward neurosis, ripe for further development into outright psychosis. For CJF, what could be a better metaphor for losing touch with reality than abandoning Clan culture? This, of course, is characteristic of Malvina’s Mongol Doctrine. But is the Mongol Doctrine really a kind of psychotic break or is it the sudden explosion of all that repressed temptation to consciously change to better adapt to the grim realities of endless, ever more devastating warfare in the Inner Sphere?

Whether Malvina is psychologically predetermined to just cut a path of destruction to Terra in vain or whether she wants to reign over an empire of bitter enemies from a battle-blackened Terran throne is an open question. But either way the unsustainability of her approach is not solely her issue but rather the wider issue of the unsustainability of CJF’s identity as a faction, going all the way back to its early days. I suspect this is the deeper reason why many CJF fans hate her so much.
« Last Edit: 21 August 2020, 04:12:57 by Manchu »

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1124 on: 21 August 2020, 04:45:38 »
But is the Mongol Doctrine really a kind of psychotic break or is it the sudden explosion of all that repressed temptation to consciously change to better adapt to the grim realities of endless, ever more devastating warfare in the Inner Sphere?

Dare I say, a little from column A, a little from column B?

It's been my opinion for a long time that the Jade Falcons have felt hard done by the universe. They have been most faithful to the traditional Clan values, yet they are not winning. All the way back to Nicky K joining the wolves, there has been a chip on their shoulders. By the time of the Dark Age, that chip can be seen from orbit.

And then consider all the Clans who became Inner Sphere pets! And no-one values the dedication of the Falcons! And the dirty Spheroids keep failing to recognise their inferiority, and keep cheating!

So when the Mongol doctrine came along - with its emphasis on winning - that repressed urge to change, to sublimate the chip into overt agression, found a ready population of Warriors.

And then Malvina, who - and the words 'psychotic break' summon her ;) - is MORE. MORE aggressive, MORE focussed, MORE kill kill kill. Like the crack in the dam, all that pressure lifted her up. And - for now - she is directing the flood.

It will be interesting to see how - if - the Falcons reconsider following her fall, which seems a narrative imperative. My guess? They'll break into faction. True Jade Falcons who become rigid and honorbound. True Jade Falcons who become adaptive, but sensitive to being accused of it. True Falcons who spend their time accusing the other False Falcons. And True Falcons who retain the psychotic heritage of Malvina.

We'll see.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1125 on: 21 August 2020, 07:03:15 »
For as much as everyone dislikes Malvina, she is the character that the Jade Falcons, the Clans, and the Battletech Universe needed.

The Jade Falcons needed that character that could push them where they haven't gone before and take them farther then they have been towards conquering Terra. They've had some good Khans since 3050 but none did anything extraordinary towards wining their goals.

The Clans needed that badass character in the same way. They need a character to push the boundaries farther then they have ever been pushed before. Someone to break the mold of good guy Khans that is going to get shit done and not in a nice way.

The Battletech needed that character to be the next over the top, crazy bad guy, what is going to happen next story. In the ilClan discusssions, there is always that 'what about Malvina' moment. Everyone hates her for what she has done and what she is doing and they probably should. Does anyone appreciate her character for what she is doing for the universe?

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1126 on: 21 August 2020, 15:56:43 »
Malvina's leadership and strategies (and to a lesser extent the Mongol Doctrine inherently) are dangerous, to the extent that she's sowing the seeds of the Clan's downfall in her own success.  The Clans' entire system only works if the following two conditions are true:

1) The Warrior Caste has the power of arms to stay in charge and
2) The lower castes have more to lose by trying to change the system than by living in the system

This is a fundamental truth of governance the (real) world over, and most of the Inner Sphere learned this lesson in bits and pieces.  It's a truth that the Clans that are actually successfully integrating have re-learned in the Dominion, the Alliance, and the Empire. 

Even if Malvina is eventually successful in the Jade Falcons becoming ilClan, which seems like a long-shot at this point, every one of her actions is inspiring the kind of rebellion that historically has not gone well for vicious despots.  Best case, after her death her successors crank the scales back a lot.  Worst case, the iron fist squeezes a bit too tight and the whole thing crumbles.  It's a nigh-inherently short-sighted method, prioritizing immediate short term gains and systematically ruining any chance at long-term stability.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1127 on: 21 August 2020, 15:58:46 »
There's also that Malvina's actions are likely to cause everyone else to unite against the Falcons. Didn't end well for the Jaguars...

Scotty

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1128 on: 21 August 2020, 16:10:31 »
There's also that Malvina's actions are likely to cause everyone else to unite against the Falcons. Didn't end well for the Jaguars...

This is Clan society in a nutshell.  Winning is the only thing that matters, until you piss off someone you can't win against.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1129 on: 21 August 2020, 16:20:18 »
I figure that most Clans, even if they were getting powerful, wouldn't necessarily make everyone else unite against them. It is Malvina's utter ruthlessness and terror tactics that may make everyone to truly unite against the Falcons. There have been powerful factions in the history of the Inner Sphere, without them getting ganged up on, though admittedly this often required a bunch of diplomacy and lucky breaks as well. The ones that got annihilated crossed certain lines.

MarauderD

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1130 on: 21 August 2020, 16:21:42 »
There's also that Malvina's actions are likely to cause everyone else to unite against the Falcons. Didn't end well for the Jaguars...

Speaking of the Jaguars--any chance that the Fidelis under Paul Moon would also meet with Malvina and offer their services to them, instead of just the Wolves?

Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1131 on: 21 August 2020, 16:25:56 »
Ya think Malvina would accept help from them? If they would become Malvina's subjects, sure, but other than that, not happening...

vaderi

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1132 on: 21 August 2020, 17:33:02 »
Disagree. My reading of it is the Falcon's continue on their descent is because Malvina still controls that course. Even on the final drive to Terra, her orders were followed only with great reluctance because the end of being ilClan justified the means. When that ends evaporates, so too will the hold of Malvina's brand of Mongol philosophy over the Falcons. When you're sick, you take your medicine not because you like the taste, but because it has to be done. She's the Asa Taney or Raina Montose of the 32nd Century, and there's only one cure to a sickness that deeply-rooted.

My problem with this stance is admittedly a meta aspect, Malvina and the Falcons being justified (via CJF's continued existance) even after everything that has been done by CJF under Malvina would sabotage any sort actual factional growth. In real life when you're sick you take your medicine, in fiction, you don't take your medicine because solving the story before it begins is boring. In real life criminals sometimes end up justified or escape punishment, in fiction villains much more rarely escape justice.

Malvina is fascinatingly horrible person, and I look forward to her continued adventures. And I look forward to what awaits the remnants of her rampages.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1133 on: 21 August 2020, 17:33:27 »
Speaking of the Jaguars--any chance that the Fidelis under Paul Moon would also meet with Malvina and offer their services to them, instead of just the Wolves?


I believe that there will be some kind of joint Falcon/Fidelis-Jaguar event that makes these to factions ilClan together is some shape or form. How that happens and how it works is not something I'm going to speculate about because the possibilities are endless. The basis of this theory is the opening of TRO Jihad and the mention of Leo Showers, Lincoln Osis, Elias Crichell, and Vandervahn Chistu. I can't see any other clan force being ilClan and having any level of reverence to those four. If it was a Wolf lead ilClan, it would be endless Ulric Kerensky nonsense.

Now Paul Moon and Malvina Hazen? After what Moon has seen and been through with the Jaguars, can you see him working with someone like Malvina? Highly unlikely. At some point, Malvina is going to have to be stopped. Who and how that happens is an endless specualation. The Jade Falcons need to save thier souls from Malvina and the Mongols if they are going to be ilClan.

MarauderCH IIC

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1134 on: 21 August 2020, 17:41:54 »
There's also that Malvina's actions are likely to cause everyone else to unite against the Falcons. Didn't end well for the Jaguars...


It's a whole different universe in 3150 compared to 3058. Who is going to unite with who? Can you see the IS factions working together when the DC controls New Avalon. The LA and FWL are shells of themselves and have already been manhandled by the Falcons and Wolves. The CC is on it's own mission to take Terra. The ilClan Star League is still up and running in 3250. All these posts that talk about factions uniting and no one following the ilClan are going to get a big dose of reality when it all comes to pass. Yes, there is likely to be resistance but we will see what happens.

DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1135 on: 21 August 2020, 18:25:06 »
I was really hoping by now another Falcon would have raised up that found a balance between full out clan honor and Hazen's burn them all method.  Something like, "bidding? Oh no no no, we're coming at you with everything we have and shooting anything that presents itself as a threat, but as long as your forces stay out of the city, so will we."    Shoot you in the rear? sure!  Shoot you when your down?  Better believe it!  Shoot you as you eject?  Of course not, but if you fought well enough we might make you a bondsman.  If not, we'll patch you up and return you to your unit after the shooting stops.

There's been plenty of characters that could have fill that role by now.  :(
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Scotty

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1136 on: 21 August 2020, 19:38:40 »
Galaxy Commander Stephanie Chistu comes closest.
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CJC070

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1137 on: 21 August 2020, 19:47:02 »
The main problem is if anyone kills Malvina they are faced with a potential inner conflict which would waste the limited resources they have.  Like the Wolf Empire they also must recognize that their forces are pretty even.  However if Malvina dies by other means they also have plausible deniability on the effectiveness of the Mongol Doctrine.

You also have to consider with the “might makes right” policy some believe “you only kick a person when they are down”.

Scotty

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1138 on: 21 August 2020, 21:10:13 »
It's not a uniquely Falcon trait to ignore the prospect of long-term destruction to avoid short-term pain but damn if it isn't frustrating to watch happen.
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MarauderCH IIC

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1139 on: 21 August 2020, 22:15:56 »
The main problem is if anyone kills Malvina they are faced with a potential inner conflict which would waste the limited resources they have.  Like the Wolf Empire they also must recognize that their forces are pretty even.  However if Malvina dies by other means they also have plausible deniability on the effectiveness of the Mongol Doctrine.

You also have to consider with the “might makes right” policy some believe “you only kick a person when they are down”.


I guess we should let Malvina live then!