Author Topic: Does anyone else dislike the clans?  (Read 66065 times)

CJC070

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #480 on: 15 July 2020, 20:05:17 »
Phelan Kell?

I think he was only talking about Clans similar to the Jade Falcons where freeborn aren’t given the same privileges as trueborn.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #481 on: 15 July 2020, 20:10:36 »
I think he was only talking about Clans similar to the Jade Falcons where freeborn aren’t given the same privileges as trueborn.

Clans like the Steel Vipers, the Jade Falcons, the Smoke Jaguars, and even the Coyotes.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #482 on: 15 July 2020, 20:11:54 »
An oligarchy at best, autocratic at worst, totalitarian regime

With the exception of the old Free Rasalhague Republic and some other minor states, this is true of all major states in the BT universe.  They are all ultimately ruled by singular despots who have very few checks on their power.  The difference between the Houses and the Clans is that the Houses inherit their despots while the Clans choose their despots through meritocracy (albeit a meritocracy of insane trials by combat) and very limited democracy (voting by trueborn or bloodnamed warriors only).

In fact, one could argue that the government of the Rasalhague Dominion, with powers shared between the Khan and the Prince and both checked by a legislature representing spheroids, freeborn, and trueborn alike, is arguably more like a modern, real-world, western liberal democracy than any other major BT state.  (That doesn’t mean it is, just that it’s closer to.)  Even when governing as a coherent whole, the most democratic Spheroid body, the FWL parliament, ultimately defers to the Captain-General through a long-standing emergency order.

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that controls its population literally from birth (iron wombs, genetic selection) to how their remains are to be handled after death.

This is mainly the trueborns, which represent less than 1% of total Clan population.  The vast majority of the freeborn population has normal reproductive freedoms.

Yeah, the eugenics program is weird and alien and it’s the center and ultimate work of Clan civilization, but it’s practices remain the exception, not the norm.

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They brainwash their population and strictly control them. They separate them in castes without any way for a "lower" caste to gain access to a higher one. Just imagine what the life of a freeborn waste management caste member should be. Worst than any serf in any feudal system anywhere.

Yes, a more systemic difference between the Clans and Houses is the tightly held command economies of the Clans' where vocations and tasks are assigned, not chosen, by the workforce.  There are shades of this in the Cappie and Snake societies, but the Clans take it to an extreme.  In the end, it doesn’t really matter as all general BT populations are sheeple.  Otherwise, it would be impossible to take and hold worlds of millions and billions with a regiment or cluster of mechs.

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What I don't get is how they are still alive. Even with the hit of the succession wars, the production capabilities and human resources of the IS should considerably dwarf those of the clans. After the initial shock, a protracted war should not have gone the way of the clans. I understand that the narrative required it, but it is so counterintuitive that it jarred my sensibilities.

In WWII a BIG factor of the allied win was the fact that they outproduced the germans. By a LOT. In our case, if the IS took total war seriously not only the Smoke Jaguars would have been eliminated. But they didn't and now we have an encroaching ilClan waiting to pound on Terra itself.

The Clans are modeled, more or less, on the Migration Period peoples (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Vandals, Huns, etc.) and later “barbarians” (Vikings, Mongols, etc.).  If you just looked at overall numbers, production, organization, or even technology, those peoples should not have been capable of doing things like sacking Rome, threatening Byzantium, bringing down any number of empires and kingdoms, or creating some of the world’s largest empires.  But unlike their “civilized” counterparts, those entire societies were geared for war, and they had practiced endemic warfare for centuries.  They were still the underdogs, but when it came to warfare, they also had certain advantages that the “civilized” world lacked.  Like their “barbarian” forbears, what the Clans lack in sheer numbers or economic production, they potentially make up for with singularity of purpose, practice, efficiency, determination, and ferocity.

Moreover, even the best-run “civilized” empire will fall on hard times.  And that’s when the “barbarians” most often sweep in and take over.   And that’s arguably what’s happened to four of the major Spheroid powers (Elsies, Republic, Leaguers, and FedRats).  The historical precedent you want to look towards is the fall of the Roman Empire, not WWII.

Lastly, it’s important to mention FASanomics.  Factory production, military size, etc. is driven by plot, not investment and demographics, in BT.  For all we know, the Clans actually do outproduce the Inner Sphere militarily despite their smaller population and presumably smaller economic base.  Given the number of mechs they destroy in Trials of Position, Trials of Bloodright, and Grand Melees alone, they might have to!

Don’t get wrong, there’s a lot to dislike about the Clans.  But like everything in BT, it’s not all that cut-and-dried or black-and-white.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #483 on: 15 July 2020, 20:23:24 »
No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship position, or ilKhanship, or Loremaster, or earned a bloodname, or anything really. (Yes, i know about Diana Pryde. but she was Aidan daughter and is a special case for that fact).


Actually . . . the Warden Wolves founded a Bloodhouse named Brahe, the Ghost Bears one named Magnusson, implication is all the IS Clans had adopted the Trial of Propagation, in '67 the Warden Wolves had a freeborn Star Colonel with a bloodname (won sometime between 62 & 67), the Nova Cats integrated Minoru Kurita's genes into their warrior caste as part of a sub-caste (Mystics), Minoru also became the Nova Cat's Loremaster IIRC, the Crusader Wolves mixed VSD & KSD genes in a test tube sometime in the 3100s, Vlad re-tested members of other castes to replace losses after the Refusal War, the Ghost Bears have given failures retraining- they can earn bloodnames and one became Khan (Bjorn), the Falcons made . . . eh, some bondsman off Blackjack a Star Colonel?- or maybe just a Star Captain but he had reputation . . .

 . . . and unBlooded warriors do get mixed into sibkos as paternal donors (see Zane Nova Cat).
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #484 on: 15 July 2020, 21:09:56 »
No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship.

Strictly speaking, this is not true of the first Khans (maybe even the second or third Khans for some Clans) or of Phelan Kell, although his were extraordinary circumstances.

It also kind of misses the point.  The Clans are the most thoroughly militarized culture in a militarized universe for a military game.  Expecting a technician to rise to a Khanship is kind of like expecting a non-noble nobody to rise to rule one of the Great Houses.  Folks don’t play Warhammer expecting the Emperor of Mankind to be overthrown from within.  Etc.  These universes are designed to create exciting stories and compelling characters.  Folks play D&D to step into the shoes of a Conan or a Gandalf, not a farmer or a shopkeeper.

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Nope. A lower caste member won't get into a higher one.

This isn’t true, either.  See Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 34, which explains that Clan children are not born into their caste.  They test to determine their caste and can and do move higher.  There are also examples of Clanners changing castes later in life.  Some of these are even formalized and unique to certain Clans, like the Shark/Fox merchant-warrior reserves.

I’m not saying there’s a lot of upward mobility in Clan society, but there’s arguably even less among the large populations of the Houses or in most real-world societies.

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None has such control over their population.  None brainwash them as thoroughly.

I think this is true of vocation, but not much else.  There is a cult of Kerensky, but within that context, there is a remarkable range of cultural differentiation and expression, from Cobra religiosity to Scorpion archeology to Shark/Fox commercialism to Bear great works to Mandrill divisiveness to Spirit unity.

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The Kerenskys were not only deserters and thieves

This contrarian view has been debated here ad nauseum.  If you want to take it up, visit these threads:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68905.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45637.0

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but madmen with control issues.

Nick almost certainly was.  No such evidence in the canon for Alex.

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Even their technology was not innovative, but derivative.

All BT technology is derivative of 80s military technology.  It’s no fault of the Clans that they lack UAVs, precision munitions, nanotech, etc.

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(At the moment of their introduction) I thought they squashed creativity for conformity.

Nick certainly squashed Wolverine creativity.  But that didn’t stop the innovations that followed after his death in the Golden Century.

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The revolution came after contact with the IS.

Their most revolutionary military innovations — the omnimech and battle armor — came long before and had nothing to do with Spheroid contact.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 21:16:06 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #485 on: 15 July 2020, 21:32:13 »
Phelan Kell?
I must confess you almost got me there. But I believe I can argue he was a special case. He is one of the first spheroids caught by the wolves, and absurdly taken with their culture he incorporated into it easily. Also, even though as clan culture was depreciative of the IS in general, it could be argued that at the moment of the invasion they were not against taking bondsman from the IS and incorporating into their military.

Later he was fundamental in Ulric Kerensky's plan of moving Clan Wolf to the IS, where he would serve as the liaison between them and the local governments.

The exact same argument can be made in regards to Ragnar Magnusson, who became saKhan of the Bears. An abduction, brainwashing, and indoctrination into clan culture was the method used to place such a valuable asset into the clan fold. And was used to congratiate the clan with the local population.


SteelRaven

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #486 on: 15 July 2020, 21:45:54 »
Kinda curious who your favorite faction is.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #487 on: 15 July 2020, 22:19:57 »
The Warden Wolves going into exile was never part of Ulric's plan- it was just the best bad option when Vlad showed his cards.

But if you look at what has happened to the Bears and the Dominion, you really have to ask which way the Overton Window moved in that partnership.  The Bears saw him as so important to their future they traded a Leviathan's worth of factory cargo to gain him.

Further, while Alaric Ward was a test-tube baby, he was at best indirectly (CC's Steiner Bloodhouse) related to Clan bloodlines.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #488 on: 15 July 2020, 23:03:38 »
An abduction, brainwashing, and indoctrination into clan culture was the method used to place such a valuable asset into the clan fold.

Wartime capture of enemy troops is not abduction.  Magnusson was not a kidnapped child or civilian.

There’s no evidence of brainwashing or forced indoctrination in the canon.  Like all bondsmen, Magnusson chose between remaining a bondsman or making the effort necessary to earn warrior status (or commit bondsref in the extreme).  He chose the latter.

Some Clans will return bondsmen who fail to earn their way into their new Clan, although we don’t know if the Wolves and Bears practiced this.

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And was used to congratiate the clan with the local population.

Not really.  He was voted Prince of the Dominion without running and on a write-in vote.  But because he had served in and was committed to the military side, he turned the office down.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #489 on: 15 July 2020, 23:08:26 »
the Ghost Bears one named Magnusson

There’s quite a few seemingly new Scandinavian bloodnames besides Magnusson and Jorgensson on the Bear rolls in FM: 3145.  Either the Bears are letting the Rasalhagians keep their last names, or they’ve created more new bloodnames than Magnusson using Rasalhagian stock.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Agathos

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #490 on: 15 July 2020, 23:17:05 »
With the exception of the old Free Rasalhague Republic and some other minor states, this is true of all major states in the BT universe.  They are all ultimately ruled by singular despots who have very few checks on their power.  The difference between the Houses and the Clans is that the Houses inherit their despots while the Clans choose their despots through meritocracy (albeit a meritocracy of insane trials by combat) and very limited democracy (voting by trueborn or bloodnamed warriors only).

I wonder: after the fall of the Star League and until the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic, was there any larger democratic exercise than the Diamond Shark open referendum of 2985?

The Free Worlds League and Federated Suns tend to limit such things to individual worlds at best. Maybe the FWL Parliament can point to some significant votes even after Resolution 288, but not all of its members are democratically selected.

The Battletech universe offers slim pickings for fans of democracy and self-determination.

ravensword

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #491 on: 15 July 2020, 23:19:00 »
There’s quite a few seemingly new Scandinavian bloodnames besides Magnusson and Jorgensson on the Bear rolls in FM: 3145.  Either the Bears are letting the Rasalhagians keep their last names, or they’ve created more new bloodnames than Magnusson using Rasalhagian stock.


All of the other non-Clan surnames in the 3145 list are in the Rasalhague part of the Dominion TOE.  My assumption is that they're keeping their last names and that propagation is rare.

marauder648

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #492 on: 16 July 2020, 04:17:39 »
In answer to the OP.

Short answer - No

Long Answer - The Clans are an interesting attempt to make an alien race without actual aliens. And because their culture is so very different from our norms, i'd say it generally succeeds in that regard.
Yes the Clans society would fall apart and makes little sense if you start tugging at threads, REVIVAL never would have stood a farts chance in a hurricane because of the simply insane number disparity. There's more people on single worlds than there are in the homeworlds (and that in itself is a mystery, why is their population so damn low?) and a lot more other flaws. But they're still a very good attempt at making an alien civilisation without little green men/betentacled horrors.

Yes the Tech is wonky, yes the Clan pulse weapons should have the ranges of standard IS lasers rather than the insane range they do have, or, if they'd existed in the fluff when they came out the Clans should have had heavy lasers from the get go. But it being advanced again can be argued to make sense. They never really suffered the immense brain drain the IS did. They started from a more advanced tech base than the 'norm' of 3025. The IS bombed itself back not to the stone age but made a good 'ol college try at it. Whereas they had cities with towers reaching miles into the sky and had a level of technology that is FAR beyond us and a fully developed world would look more like Earth in the Expanse than anything. They managed to destroy all that technology, and then Comstar went around murdering and destroying even more. Its like us suddenly going back to the Victorian period, its that massive a jump back in some worlds cases.

Whereas the Clans had a tech base they could work on as well as all the notes etc and design documents and whilst they were conservative, they did what we're doing now. We've not really invented any new earth shaking tech that stands out and start off a new tech race. What we're doing is making things smaller, lighter, more efficient. Its what the Scientist Caste did. They made things smaller, lighter, more efficient.

Would I want to LIVE in a Clan? Unless its the Ghost Bears or Diamond Sharks. NO. Its a horrific Plurocratic Jockocracy where the ultimate decider in anything is force and strength.
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codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #493 on: 16 July 2020, 07:24:29 »
Kinda curious who your favorite faction is.

Mercenaries. Then I can get my character disillusioned with whatever faction he was born into  ;). Next? FWL amounts pretty much to the exact same thing.

codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #494 on: 16 July 2020, 09:42:55 »
Strictly speaking, this is not true of the first Khans (maybe even the second or third Khans for some Clans) or of Phelan Kell, although his were extraordinary circumstances.

It also kind of misses the point.  The Clans are the most thoroughly militarized culture in a militarized universe for a military game.  Expecting a technician to rise to a Khanship is kind of like expecting a non-noble nobody to rise to rule one of the Great Houses.  Folks don’t play Warhammer expecting the Emperor of Mankind to be overthrown from within.  Etc.  These universes are designed to create exciting stories and compelling characters.  Folks play D&D to step into the shoes of a Conan or a Gandalf, not a farmer or a shopkeeper.


This isn’t true, either.  See Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 34, which explains that Clan children are not born into their caste.  They test to determine their caste and can and do move higher.  There are also examples of Clanners changing castes later in life.  Some of these are even formalized and unique to certain Clans, like the Shark/Fox merchant-warrior reserves.

First, you can quote the novellas by page? :o Holy mother of God!

I remember that. In "Lethal Heritage" on the page "I have no idea" even though Aidan and Marthe advanced in their sibko training, most of their "siblings" got tested away before the trial of position.

But you miss the point and strike at it at the same time. Even though none is born into his caste, once cast, caste mobility is impossible. A lower caste member has no voice in the clan council, and the destiny of their clan is decided without their input. Even a warrior won't be cast down. A dezgra warrior eventually becomes solahmna, not an artificer or technician. And no tech is going to test into the warrior caste.

Yes, they are militarized, to the point that no other caste than the warrior has any input in its own destiny or its clan. They are less than serfs, who could at least try to escape their lord. And no, the black caste doesn't count. That's the same that escaping into a black hole. They have no society to speak of.

And they are brainwashed from BIRTH. Remember: Trashborn conforms the majority of their "ruling council". And they are educated in a system where beatings are mandatory, among other "education" techniques. If that's what the best can expect, what do you think happens in the lower castes?


This contrarian view has been debated here ad nauseum.  If you want to take it up, visit these threads:

Fun times! Thank you for those links. I´m going to read them all.

All BT technology is derivative of 80s military technology.  It’s no fault of the Clans that they lack UAVs, precision munitions, nanotech, etc.

Of course. But that's not the point. They improved what they already got at hand, but provided no new technologies to speak of. They ran away with a Matar, and instead of figuring out how to make it work, they simply belched the Stone Rhino. One of the real innovative technologies of their time, that pushed an envelope none was able to surpass before, that WAS surpassable as time proved, and they simply left it as it was. (And yes, I know that superheavys were not canon at the time of publication, but that's not the point. Hating the clans is  ;D)


Their most revolutionary military innovations — the omnimech and battle armor — came long before and had nothing to do with Spheroid contact.
Really? They already had PAL suits in the SLDF. And the Mercury battlemech was the precursor of the Omnimech. That's no innovation. That's taking what you have, already tested, and perfecting it. Not innovation per se, but progression.

And thank you, and everyone else, for their answers to my post. They have been thorough, informative, and fun to read.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2020, 09:44:26 by codigo »

Colt Ward

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #495 on: 16 July 2020, 09:53:39 »
Yes the Clans society would fall apart and makes little sense if you start tugging at threads, REVIVAL never would have stood a farts chance in a hurricane because of the simply insane number disparity. There's more people on single worlds than there are in the homeworlds (and that in itself is a mystery, why is their population so damn low?) and a lot more other flaws. But they're still a very good attempt at making an alien civilisation without little green men/betentacled horrors.

A lot of that disconnect comes about when you take the early Clan source material- WCSB, JFSB, ICSB, & scenario books- hit the revision point (hint, its F&W scenario book), and they have to explain why the reformed Star League can destroy a Clan.  Before that, we have BoK as the best source and the widely traveled Phelan Kell as our POV on the Clans.  When visint Strana Mechty it never gets remarked about the city being 'so small' or a lack of population when on the street.  Compare what people from the East Coast or better yet Europe where everything is jammed together say and talk about when they visit the eastern Rockies & their foothills- Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Utah . . . basically anywhere in those states outside Denver.  When you go from urban sprawl to rural sparsity- and used to urban sprawl- it gets noticed and frequently commented on.

Culturally the Clans were also different- the Jaguars and Vipers were interested in adopting Phelan into their warrior caste if the Wolves did not!  Post-Refusal War those two Clans would NEVER have even thought about it let alone tell a rival such a thing.  It suggests a social mobility among Clan culture that we do not see reflected today- along with the 'harvesting' of the best on each world the Wolves conquered, it shows a far greater appreciation for talent from the freebirths even with the Wolves being of the more liberal bent.

Finally, the original implied Clan strength in BoK is greater than what we ended up with post-Refusal War.  During that conflict FASA forgot about a galaxy of frontline troops and at best 21 clusters of garrison troops for the Wolves!  And even that strength would not be enough to place the Wolves among the leaders of the Clan sizes we get with FMCC & WC- Refusal War involved around 20 attacking clusters (15 frontline & 5 pseudo-secondline) and saw another 5 garrison clusters re-positioned with 21 garrison clusters remaining in the OZ along with a most of a frontline galaxy (Red Keshik & some Delta clusters).  If they had 49 clusters, it the Invasion Wolves roughly in the middle of the strength range.  But the implication was that all four initial Invading Clans and then the two activated reserve were the best/strongest of the Clans as a whole and that they intentionally only brought a small portion of their best to make it a contest.  Twenty-six garrison clusters were moved out of the Homeworlds without notice by the other Clans and had such a little impact on the Homeworlds so as to be a minor mention.  If you can casually move 26 formations around your territory un-noticed it implies you have several times that formations available . . . to me that suggests 100+ plus clusters for the Wolves alone, more likely in the 200s.

But how would the Second Star League have taken out the Jaguars if- even with the material problems, which first started being reported at the same time they got downsized- they had 150-200 clusters?  When a cluster during the Invasion could be expected to defeat a mech regiment, they would have been able to bury any House . . . which is why they bid down to the small number of clusters, to use the least force as a challenge.
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"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #496 on: 16 July 2020, 10:19:51 »
I'm gonna chime in here and piss a lot of people off now;

The Clans are meant to be interesting.

yes, some of their society simply doesn't work but that doesn't mean that someone wouldn't try it, even educated someones.  They fill that role correctly in tht they provide that useful 'dynamic element' at a point where things were going entirely too far in one direction, and they served their purpose.

They continue to serve their purpose by providing more gedankenlab for what a hyper-idealized culture can be and become, while still providing enough flaws and failings to make them interesting instead of an all out fanwank.

Have there been some disappointments in the canon portrayal? Oh, you betcha.  I won't go over mine except to cite that when things were less painstakingly defined, the Crusader/Warden split was a lot more interesting because Crusaders could actually be intelligent and be doing it for reasons OTHER than being dicks.

hate to say it, but villain decay hits every property that's ever been, including Battletech, but thankfully it's still relatively mild in comparison with some other popular franchises.

but in general, the whole thing is heroic fiction, and presents as such, and in their proper role as plot-factors, the Clans do a good job...except Malvina's Mongols.

That was...ech.  too black-and-white and in the context of too black and white, too stupidly black.

and by stupidly, I mean exactly that-actually hitting the point of 'too stupid to live', which is something you NEVER want your villains to be in heroic fiction.  The rule is that 'if it's too stupid to work but it works..." doesn't apply when the success is so obviously forced by the author's hand.  (I eally can't hate on Malvina's Mongol era enough, honestly, really can't.)

but in general terms, from 3049 to 30-seventies-ish the Clans do a good job of being a dynamic factor that enriches the setting, which is what you WANT with a fictional nation that could never exist in a more realistic setting.

There were a lot of missed opportunities with the Clans, but in general, they're still a good fountain for story material, plot material, opposition, allies, and flavour.

because in the final exam, sometimes you NEED that Munchkin-bait, if for no other reason than to make it so when the Heroes win, it's got heft and meaning.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #497 on: 16 July 2020, 10:30:48 »
Kind of curious why you think Malvina is too much?  Her actions are absolutely ripped from history with a bit of a technological twist- a lot literally from the historical example and their successor she claims as a model.  I also think that her Mongol position is the logical conclusion of the Crusader viewpoint in the Clans 'might makes right' society- breaking the rules & customs to 'win' is also part of the break down of a society, which the Falcons are exhibiting.

As far as someone not trying to replicate parts of Clan society?  Again, similar lower-tech things have happened history and without getting into too much Rule #4 detail, the inability to successfully function is not & has never stopped people from trying to implement structurally flawed (IE, its a feature not a bug) bad ideas.
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codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #498 on: 16 July 2020, 10:43:22 »
I'm gonna chime in here and piss a lot of people off now;

The Clans are meant to be interesting.


I´m gonna stop you right there with a strategy you don't expect: Of course i agree with you!. And they ARE interesting. And of course, i can imagine a ton of things I would have done differently. That's why "What ifs" are so fun. But why do YOU hate them?

And I think not hating them is not an option. Much like their model, the Mongols, you can say you admire their determination, etc. but not that you love them. In the end, they are the villain of the series. Or another one. Maybe i don't anymore what i'm talking about?

And Alaric has been built as to be an interesting villain, one with a "moral" code?. Much more than Malvina, who seems to clear cut as a madwoman.


Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #499 on: 16 July 2020, 10:50:46 »
First, you can quote the novellas by page?

Clans: Warriors of Kerensky is a sourcebook and a good/best source on Clan society in general.  (And I had to look up the page number.)

Quote
most of their "siblings" got tested away before the trial of position.

It varies by Clan.  Some have huge sibkos with ~100 sibkin from different lineages.  In these Clans, nearly all of the sibkin wash out or die during the training and testing in the lead up to the Trial of Position.  Other Clans have small sibkos of ~20 sibkin, often from a single geneparent pairing.  These Clans have lower washout rates during training, but their Trials of Position are considerably more demanding.  Either way, only a relative few sibkin join the warrior caste.

Quote
Even though none is born into his caste, once cast, caste mobility is impossible.

Again, strictly speaking, that’s not true.  Freeborns from other castes can earn entry into the warrior caste in many/most Clans.  The Sharks/Foxes have a reserve of warrior-merchants that move between those two castes as needed.  The Wolves and other Clans have recruited and retested warriors from lower castes to fill gaps in their toumans.  Etc.

That doesn’t mean that Clan society is a model of upward social mobility.  But it’s not frozen in stasis, either.

Quote
A lower caste member has no voice in the clan council, and the destiny of their clan is decided without their input... to the point that no caste other than the warrior has any input in its own destiny or that of its Clan.  They are less than serfs...

Again, this is not true.  Each caste in each Clan has its own council, responsible for the affairs of its caste, and the leaders of these caste councils (Merchant Factors, Scientists General, etc.) advise the warrior caste leadership.

I’m not saying that the Clans are a shining example of egalitarian democracy and self-determination.  The Khan always has the final say unless he loses a Trial of Refusal.  But neither are the lower castes indentured servants or serfs with no say in the affairs of their Clan.

Quote
A dezgra warrior eventually becomes solahmna, not an artificer or technician.

It depends on the nature of the disgrace.  Was the warrior a coward in battle?  He can still serve his Clan in a lower caste.  Was the warrior shipping weapons and slaves to the Bandit Caste?  He’s a danger to the Clan.  Put him on the frontlines to die ASAP.  Or maybe execute him right away.

Like their real-world “barbarian” forbears, status in the Clans is based on your utility to your Clan.  Your Clan will go to great length to find a place where you can be useful, but there are few inherent rights.  If you have no utility or are a danger to the Clan, then you will have little or no status.

Quote
And no tech is going to test into the warrior caste.

No, we know that freeborns from any caste can and do test into the warrior caste in many/most Clans. 

Quote
And they are brainwashed from BIRTH.

There’s no evidence of brainwashing in the Clans like what the Blakists engaged in during the Jihad.  What you’re calling brainwashing is just socialization and education.  Just because you disagree with the norms of a culture doesn’t mean that its members are brainwashed.

Quote
They ran away with a Matar, and instead of figuring out how to make it work, they simply belched the Stone Rhino.

The Stone Rhino _is_ making the Matar work.  Lowering the mass of a robot or vehicle so its structure and motive system can handle its weight is a legitimate technical solution.

Quote
Really? They already had PAL suits in the SLDF. And the Mercury battlemech was the precursor of the Omnimech. That's no innovation. That's taking what you have, already tested, and perfecting it. Not innovation per se, but progression.

The leaps from the Nighthawk to the Elemental and from the Mercury to the Coyotl were not linear.  They are fundamentally different war machines and those differences go to the heart of the game’s mechanics and require new rules.  There are no comparable innovations (or much innovation at all) anywhere else during the Golden Century/Succession Wars.
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vaderi

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #500 on: 16 July 2020, 11:00:23 »
The Clans are meant to be interesting
Then the effort largely failed for me at least. It's usually a bad sign when you decide that your "Interesting" villains must be so much better than your heroes that nothing can be done to defeat them. And doubling down on that by having so many clans that your players lose track of them(to the degree you need to get rid of a bunch of them down the line) doesn't make the group more interesting, it just makes each individual clan need to work harder to be interesting.

I don't like the clans and while some of that is from their society(which is pretty repugnant), and the way the fiction treats them(which is often obnoxiously positively), most of my reasons for disliking the clans is due to how unbalanced they are in game (and that they have advanced tech at all). It'll always bother me that a Caste-based culture run via Fight Club not only manages to preserve it's high tech base but actually invent tech that is so much better than that baseline that more than 100 years after the Clan Invasion, the Inner Sphere standard still lags behind it.

Luckily the Clans have very little actual effect on the Inner Sphere after the Invasion and are very ignorable. At least until the Dark Ages.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2020, 11:05:04 by vaderi »
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #501 on: 16 July 2020, 11:30:44 »
  The Germans in WW2 had the nicest toys and uniforms, I could even understand their language. In a lot of other areas I was not so impressed.
  As a tabletop wargamer, German equipment was for the beginners, I would rather play Allied and let the opponents have double the normal forces.

Anybody could field superior equipment.
 
  The Clans are similar, except for their uniforms which were designed by some bored kid in high school...
« Last Edit: 16 July 2020, 11:36:29 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

Daryk

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #502 on: 16 July 2020, 13:17:24 »
*snip*
...a fictional nation that could never exist in a more realistic setting.
*snip*
I think you just summarized my dislike of the clan thing in fewer words than I ever could...

Mecha82

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #503 on: 16 July 2020, 13:31:57 »
Thing is, BTU isn't really that realistic. We are talking about setting were most powerful warmachines are realistically inpractically giant robots and there are heroic pilots for those that survive anything is thrown at them. So really having way Clan society function way it does is small thing in comparison. And just like BattleMechs bring people around this game and it's setting so do Clans. So conclusion is that something being realistically inpractical isn't bad thing.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #504 on: 16 July 2020, 13:48:10 »
To me, at least, the clans are the EXTREME expression of the physical impossibility.  BT 3025, or so, in general hits the sweet spot for me.

Renard

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #505 on: 16 July 2020, 14:55:47 »
I like the clan factions on some level but dislike what it does to the politics of the Inner Sphere and possible future storylines.  I don't want to get rid of them and their mechs entirely, but I'd prefer they weren't genocidal maniacs that unbalance everything with super advanced tech and bizarre ideas about mech combat, like the aversion to melee and the weird fixation on duels and honor and Trials of X.

Here's the alternate universe I usually live in:

1. Instead of leaving the inner sphere, Kerensky's SLDF forces stayed in the IS and became a UN peacekeeping force that only intervened to reduce civilian casualties and enforce norms to reduce crimes against humanity. The techs, diplomats, and merchants who become part of the SLDF forces keep the manufacturing and technological heights of the SLDF alive within the peacekeeping force, but it is forbidden to trade military tech to the successor states. Tech continues to advance in these enclaves. Because of the widespread prevalance of war, the forces are divided and scattered about the inner sphere to ensure fast response times. The peacekeeping forces rarely intervene, as the point is deterrence: no successor state wants to see a bunch of warships appear above a planet they are trying to conquer, dropping regiments of pristine battlemechs to completely annihilate the aggressor's forces.
2. Over time, the different peacekeeping commands (Wolf [Davion], Jade Falcon [Liao], Ghost Bear [DCMS], etc) develop their own cultures, which is unavoidably influenced by the state they are embedded in, even if strict neutrality and separation is the ideal. (Pick how crazy you want the clans to end up.)  For example, if Wolf is stationed in Davion space, they will end up largely protecting Davion worlds from aggression, and will eventually sympathize with Davion.
3. At some point, an internal conflict over which side to take just before or just after some particularly egregious atrocity fractured the neutral SLDF forces, splintering it into a bunch of different groups with different Warden/Crusader philosophies.
4. Warden clans essentially became white hat mercenary groups, like the Wolf's Dragoons. Crusader clans became black hat mercenary groups, either mounting a military campaign to take over territory and start their own states, or nihilistic war-mongerers selling their services to the successor states for the highest bid.  At this point, clan tech begins diffusing back into successor state militaries.  They have similar philosophies to the clans due to the insularity that the embargo created, but are not quite as cartoonish or fascist.  The Warden vs Crusader conflicts all carry over, because the Wolf Command is not going to tolerate the Jade Falcon Command's aggression and violence. The Crusader philosophy makes even more sense, because the neutral post-SLDF forces would see it as a betrayal for their comrades to turn advanced tech towards the goal of subjugating the civilians they were supposed to be protecting from the excesses of war; you would see Wolf deploy to counter Jade Falcon directly, even if it advanced the interests of a successor state that Wolf generally disapproved of.

Compatible with all the TROs, but no one is born from iron wombs, no bloodlines and eugenics, no Trials of X goofballery (I mean, not unless you are really into any of that), and you still get a "Clan Invasion" around 3050 when Operations Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar decide they have had enough of hanging back while violence tears the Inner Sphere apart, and Jade Falcon begins conquering worlds,  Ghost Bear allies with DCMS, and Smoke Jaguar begins taking Merc contracts from the highest bidder to do the dirtiest deeds with impunity, or whatever you like.

This just makes more sense to me, and I get to field the Timberwolf. The Warden faction never made any particular sense unless you just wanted to give people someone to root for. The answer that clans are "aliens without being aliens" seems spot on. The way the clans fight one another and fail to unify to conquer the inner sphere is bonkers.  It's all madness.  If, instead, the different peace-keeping commands drift apart over time and develop different philosophies, it creates interesting tensions. How far does Operation Wolf go to protect its Davion "allies"?  Is it willing to sacrifice its neutrality to step in and stop a ruinous defeat? If Jade Falcon is subjugating worlds outside its jurisdiction, does Wolf deploy troops to intervene?  How does a people who have a strong anti-nationalism philosophy balance their ideals and perceived duty, once people as powerful as they are have abandoned the mission in favor of personal interests?  Does Ghost Bear just dissolve into DCMS, or how does it stay independent? Does Smoke Jaguar destroy itself as an evil version of Wolf's Dragoons, or become even more influential and powerful?

codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #506 on: 16 July 2020, 15:25:24 »
Clans: Warriors of Kerensky is a sourcebook and a good/best source on Clan society in general.  (And I had to look up the page number.)

It varies by Clan.  Some have huge sibkos with ~100 sibkin from different lineages.  In these Clans, nearly all of the sibkin wash out or die during the training and testing in the lead up to the Trial of Position.  Other Clans have small sibkos of ~20 sibkin, often from a single geneparent pairing.  These Clans have lower washout rates during training, but their Trials of Position are considerably more demanding.  Either way, only a relative few sibkin join the warrior caste.

Again, strictly speaking, that’s not true.  Freeborn's from other castes can earn entry into the warrior caste in many/most Clans.  The Sharks/Foxes have a reserve of warrior-merchants that move between those two castes as needed.  The Wolves and other Clans have recruited and retested warriors from lower castes to fill gaps in their toumans.  Etc.

Perhaps it could be argued that, among the Sharks, the Warrior-Merchant is a caste itself? I remember reading a novel where that seemed to be the case. A merchant until you have to fight. Most likely I'm misremembering and, regrettably, I don't have access to the "Clans: Warriors of Kerensky sourcebook".

And as for their refilling of their ranks. The words "Cannon fodder" comes to mind. Do you really believe that in a society that much stratified they will use them for anything else? Remember the Falcon Guard and Aidan Pryde. Prestige missions will not be their bread and butter, but missions where death or victory are the only options.


Again, this is not true.  Each caste in each Clan has its own council, responsible for the affairs of its caste, and the leaders of these caste councils (Merchant Factors, Scientists General, etc.) advise the warrior caste leadership.

I’m not saying that the Clans are a shining example of egalitarian democracy and self-determination.  The Khan always has the final say unless he loses a Trial of Refusal.  But neither are the lower castes indentured servants or serfs with no say in the affairs of their Clan.


Yup, Thank you for making my point. They advise. But their advice is NOT binding. Not even as a joke. All the other councils could vote against a decision of the warrior caste council and it would avail to nothing. And any mild disagreement would be met in force.

Do you imagine a protest in Clan space? How would it be met? how about a riot? Can you imagine a sec-agent trying to deescalate? In a culture where personal confrontation is ingrained since birth at every level?


It depends on the nature of the disgrace.  Was the warrior a coward in battle?  He can still serve his Clan in a lower caste.  Was the warrior shipping weapons and slaves to the Bandit Caste?  He’s a danger to the Clan.  Put him on the frontlines to die ASAP.  Or maybe execute him right away.

Like their real-world “barbarian” forbears, status in the Clans is based on your utility to your Clan.  Your Clan will go to great length to find a place where you can be useful, but there are few inherent rights.  If you have no utility or are a danger to the Clan, then you will have little or no status.


Won't fight you there. First, you are Natasha Kerensky. My bones would be dust in any real confrontation. And second, my gripe is precisely that. Usefulness to the Clan.

And who decides what is useful in a militaristic, Oligarchyc, totalitarian regime? They could be relegating to nothingness the next Shakespeare, or an unconventionally brilliant scientist, etc.


There’s no evidence of brainwashing in the Clans like what the Blakists engaged in during the Jihad.  What you’re calling brainwashing is just socialization and education.  Just because you disagree with the norms of a culture doesn’t mean that its members are brainwashed.


Sure. How is disagreement met in a sibko? With explanations and hugs? Or with a myomer whip to the throat? to a 5-year-old. How do think a hyper-aggressive parental figure behave when they, themselves were abused? Can you imagine Joana Jade Falcon as a caring sib-parent? Or as the vicious, sadistic, evil b...c she was all her life? No. Lessons are taught through pain, and blood.

How is recompense met?

What are they taught about their clan, the IS, the SLDF. What do you think would happen to a kid if he arrives at a conclusion different from the one supplied by the clan in regards to Kerensky? Would his opinion be respected? or removed with extreme prejudice?

I agree with something. You don't see aggressive short term brainwashing. But when you do it at an Orwellian level it's hardly necessary.

The Stone Rhino _is_ making the Matar work.  Lowering the mass of a robot or vehicle so its structure and motive system can handle its weight is a legitimate technical solution.

Agree to disagree. The Stone Rhino is the defeat of ingenuity. It could work, eventually, but they didn't want to figure out how. It didn't fit the clan mold.

The leaps from the Nighthawk to the Elemental and from the Mercury to the Coyotl were not linear.  They are fundamentally different war machines and those differences go to the heart of the game’s mechanics and require new rules.  There are no comparable innovations (or much innovation at all) anywhere else during the Golden Century/Succession Wars.

Perhaps? I should concede because arguing against that would require intimate knowledge of inexistent technology. But you know, what? I concede. You are correct. Not because I'm convinced, but because if I can't make a valid argument against yours, and your interpretation is the only one viable, I must accept it as valid until more evidence presents itself.


Colt Ward

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #507 on: 16 July 2020, 16:13:46 »
See IMO, its not the caste, treatment of children, bondsmen, trial by combat, or even lip service eugenics that make the Clans 'alien' even if that is what people cite- all of those were recent historical common use- in the 80s they would have been even more recent but are subliminal ques to 'modern' sensibility for being 'evil.'  Its the overlay of animal totems, specific loan word use, alternative unit structure (not NATO & Warsaw Pact), and disgust for contractions that overlays what would be considered alien practices to modern Western psyche.

Look back over 100 years and the attitude towards children is very different, to the point of being considered uncaring by modern standards.  Depending on the society, they were often considered adults within a few years of turning 10- which was the roughly the point they were expected to survive.  Numerous societies through history separated and trained children to be future soldiers- Sparta, Ottomon's janissaries, squires to knights, Czar Nicholas's Jewish & Karaite conscripts (1821), and more.
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codigo

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #508 on: 16 July 2020, 16:25:56 »
Look back over 100 years and the attitude towards children is very different, to the point of being considered uncaring by modern standards.  Depending on the society, they were often considered adults within a few years of turning 10- which was the roughly the point they were expected to survive.  Numerous societies through history separated and trained children to be future soldiers- Sparta, Ottomon's janissaries, squires to knights, Czar Nicholas's Jewish & Karaite conscripts (1821), and more.
The Janissaries and the spartans are two great examples, IMO. I can't comment on the Karaites, as I don't know their history.

And the greek, curiously the Athenians, admired the Spartans. But they made a horrible system based on human denigration. Ie. the killing of helots as part of their "training". They would have made a good Clan. Perhaps there's an idea there? Nah. Wolf clan is already taken.

Finally, i'm NOT applying societal-current cultural values to a 2000 years old culture. When you study history, as with any science, you leave your prejudices behind. That being said, some of their customs would find a good warm home on clan worlds.

SteelRaven

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #509 on: 16 July 2020, 16:28:14 »
I really hate this debate because it burns me out.

It comes across as "Your faction is bad and this is why is bad, stop being a fan."

I could take apart almost any other faction in BT the same way but the back and forth is just self destructive.

I enjoy the Clan because of Mechwarrior 2, I sometime have problems with the Inner Sphere because of the Neo Feudalism (which is not a problem in it self other than people romanticize it) but that's why the Clans are what I call a dark reflection of the IS; the Clans represent all of the IS war mongering striped of pretext.
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