Author Topic: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion  (Read 28351 times)

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #60 on: 20 January 2023, 15:34:41 »
Also, weird but important question to Xotl and nckestrel, as this helps out greatly with viewing the BSP in Playtests, what do the writers/CGL see as the purpose of the BSP deck? I know what the Aero/Artillety/Mines were, and I applaud that deck, but with vehicles, what role does the PTB see them take?

I hadn't really considered them to this point: my focus has been on the ruleset.  It's definitely something that needs considering, however, and I'll be sure to raise it in any kind of final summary report once things have run their course.
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Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #61 on: 20 January 2023, 18:44:42 »
What? I thought for sure the Normandy beach assaults were completely equal BV's on both sides ;)
*snip*
They totally were!  The Allied player just rolled a 12 for counterintelligence, meaning the Axis player couldn't use an entire Panzer army...  ^-^

DevianID

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #62 on: 20 January 2023, 19:38:18 »
In terms of strike versus tank BSP balance, part of the current inequity is the very very low destroy TN, and the BSP construction seems to price TMM seperate from armor.  So a unit with a 4+ to destroy, which is 0 armor in normal battletech, is still paying a ton for defense for TMM.  Normal BV multiplies your armor/structure by tmm, which keeps costs low if you literally have 0 armor like some of these beta BSP units.  So a light strike that comes in and deals 10 damage to the very expensive but 0 armor unit (srm carrier, warrior) makes the light strike look over powered.  But then you hit an awesome with a strike, a unit with actual toughness, and the light strike feels underwhelming.  Thus its important not to lose sight that the vehicles fragility is the issue, not the strike.

Ive played a ton of competitive games with strikes for the BTCC playtesting (LVO 1 week away!  So excited!) And the best part of strikes is using (13 in the new pricing) BSP points to target the cheap light ancillary units that otherwise would run up the score on objectives unchallenged.  A dasher, a stinger, elementals, ect, hiding behind a LOS blocking building/terrain scoring objective points and not interacting with the enemy can be discourages with a few BSP strikes, making the rest of the enemy force have to play the game.  A few points in strikes keep these super cheap evasive units honest, usually crippling a mech or destroying a single unit of elementals with AE damage, which is really important balance in these objective games.  Its the same with BSP assets.  If a (3 in the new pricing) point air cover counters a (5 in the new pricing) light strike, then you need that strike to counter an (8 in the new pricing) annoying evasive BSP unit.  The strike is to the BSP vehicle asset unit what the air cover is to the strike, and that rock paper scissor balance is important.  But 36 points in a 4v4 is a LOT.  We use (13) in the 6v6 BTCC competitive format for example.

Geg

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #63 on: 21 January 2023, 13:10:20 »
7. For relating TW rules to infantry damage, I don't think abstracting from the 2D6 damage a MG does is a big an issue as abstracting from most other weapons doing only 1pt of damage. If a Clan ERPPC does as much damage to an infantry platoon as it does a 'Mech, why would I ever need to bring an "S" Omni variant (or any other anti-infantry unit) to the table when playing with the BSP/Asset rules? Maybe include the TW infantry damage as a "Variable Infantry Damage" optional rule for players?

Requiring RPS list design to deal with assets, undermines the core simplicity that Rock v Rock fights that makes assets appealing in the first place.

Xan

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #64 on: 22 January 2023, 01:09:01 »
Got my first two games in tonight to try out the beta test.  Both games were one scout mech with 3/4 pilots and two vehicles per side (forces listed at end of the post), no Strike cards were used just trying to get a feel for it.  Picked one of the desert maps that came in the Clan invasion box with no forests.  In both games the vehicles seems to punch a bit above their weight class (Battle Value), purely due to them getting their full TMM no matter how far it moves, and the high damage output when the connect, on lightly armored mechs. 

There was some question in the rules on changing level, we took it that changing level took 2 mp (one for the hex and one for the level change), but with the way the rules are worded we were not sure we were playing that right as it could be 3 mp (2 for the level change and one for the hex).

Based off of a very small sample size, where we purposely tried to make sure the vehicles were relevant, the 30 BV to 1 BSP seemed under costed.

My opponent wants to try VTOLs next time we play so looking forward to that.  I am interested in trying out the field guns.

Team 1                                                                          Team 2 
Javelin JVN-10N BV 784                                               Spider SDR-5V BV 821
Condor Heavy Hover Tank Elite BSP 12 (360 BV)               Pegasus Elite 12 (360 BV)
Vendetta Medium Tank Elite BSP 15 (450 BV)               Galleon Elite 10 (300 BV)
Total: BV 1,594                                                              BV 1,481 
 
Winner Team 1
Result: Condor head capped the Spider round 3 rest of vehicles fell shortly after, nothing you can do against a hot dice.

Team 1                                                                       Team 2
Javelin JVN-10N BV 784                                            Valkyrie VLK-QA BV 954
Condor Heavy Hover Tank Elite BSP 12 (360 BV)           Pegasus Elite 12 (360 BV)
Vendetta Medium Tank Elite BSP 15 (450 BV)           Galleon Elite 10 (300 BV)
Total: BV 1,594                                                          BV 1,614 

Winner Team 1
Result: Javelin team won initiative more than the Valkyrie team in the mid rounds .  The vehicles seemed to pull their weight more than the scout mechs.  Getting the movement modifier on the vehicles no matter what allows for some turret tech with high to hit modifiers.  Towards the end I had a Condor just park on hill with good vantage point and make my opponent come try and dislodge it.

Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #65 on: 22 January 2023, 03:52:50 »
Are the BSP rules meant for such small engagements?  ???

Xan

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #66 on: 22 January 2023, 08:22:13 »
I would guess they were not.  Our typical game is a 2 vs 2, although typically about double the BV we were using.  So the unit count for us was about what we would want.  Also we wanted to start small to get a feel for the rules and see what happens. 

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #67 on: 22 January 2023, 09:12:36 »
Agreed, and that makes sense!  :thumbsup:

NeonKnight

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #68 on: 22 January 2023, 10:00:50 »
OK, Played my game last night, as playing a campaign, the BSP was kept with that in mind.

I took 28 BSP for my side (A small base the players were assaulting, so I took 4 field gun emplacements, 2 Veteran Light Emplacements, and 2 Veteran Medium emplacements), The players chose 2 Manticore Tanks, also Veteran ranking.

Thoughts:

The Field guns did not last beyond 2 rounds. With Immobile, and a fixed firing arc, means that placement is key, but hard to say if a Damage Check of 9+ to destroy is a good starting point when the player's don't seem capable of rolling 9's or higher on every check :P

The Tanks on the other hand seemed to Rock, but with them always getting their full TMM in (move or not) the seemed to become Uber-Emplacements as if you compare to the emplacement, they are 6 harder to hit at all times:

Regular if standing still need to hit tank at medium range: 4 + 2 (TMM) + 2 Range = 8+
Regular if standing Still need to hit Emplacement at medium range: 4 - 4 (Immobile) + 2 range =  2+

Additionally compare to the Emplacement the tanks have turrets, so facing is not as important.


The Kicker is the TMM issue, as this will introduce the old AS bugaboo of Woods, as if you can take a tank and park in a woods/heavy woods and never move you can have a permanent TMM of 3, 4, or even 5+ for Tracked. Wheeled/hover can sit outside a woods, or even with woods between for the same Cheddar goodness.

Fix - This is hard, as one doesn't want to get two winded on the cards, but the rules document can state in various places:

[Page 1]
Change from:

3: TMM: Target Movement Modifier. This is the attack modifier the Asset receives if it is the target of an attack.

to

3: TMM: Target Movement Modifier. This is the maxium attack modifier the Asset can receive if it is the target of an attack.


and Page 3 under COMBAT

Change from:

Unlike other Assets, the Target Movement Modifier (TMM) of a Asset is always the same: a fixed modifier indicated
on the Asset card that applies regardless of how many hexes it has moved (even if it does not move at all).


to

Unlike other Assets, the Target Movement Modifier (TMM) of a Asset is based on it's movement. If it did not move, the TMM is 0 (+1 for VToLs), half (rounded up) if it moved up to half it's MP, and the full TMM if it moved more than half it's listed move.



Or something to that effect, because otherwise, they can begin to outshine the Mechs, which are supposed to be the hero's of the game, and if future versions allows for Assets of Elite, or Heroic levels, well, they could be a lot worse.
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Prometheum5

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #69 on: 22 January 2023, 19:37:38 »
I haven't had a chance to play the Beta rules yet but was reviewing today to come up with a scenario for us to test with. Are the Pegasus and Condor meant to have identical stats? They seem to be significantly different vehicles and are listed with different roles. Is this a weird artifact of the flattening of rules to the card stats, or is there an error here? If nothing else it seems like they would differ in range.

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #70 on: 22 January 2023, 19:55:18 »
I haven't had a chance to play the Beta rules yet but was reviewing today to come up with a scenario for us to test with. Are the Pegasus and Condor meant to have identical stats? They seem to be significantly different vehicles and are listed with different roles. Is this a weird artifact of the flattening of rules to the card stats, or is there an error here? If nothing else it seems like they would differ in range.

They're both 8/12 hovercraft with the same armour tonnage and same general overall damage value and no special abilities.
Since Assets only have one range bracket, that winds up compressing some units into similar spaces.
I have a set of conversion notes and the Condor is specifically called out as one of those units whose uniqueness suffers, unfortunately.
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Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #71 on: 22 January 2023, 19:57:58 »
Perhaps it should be considered for deselection from the initial rules then? ???

Prometheum5

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #72 on: 22 January 2023, 20:14:45 »
They're both 8/12 hovercraft with the same armour tonnage and same general overall damage value and no special abilities.
Since Assets only have one range bracket, that winds up compressing some units into similar spaces.
I have a set of conversion notes and the Condor is specifically called out as one of those units whose uniqueness suffers, unfortunately.

Thank you! Since it's currently a result of the rules conversion, it makes me wonder what the purpose of having the Asset Role on the card is? It's not called out in the card summary, and if two identically-statted Assets can have two different Roles, is that information meaningful? If there's going to be text there I'd rather it be the movement type of the vehicle.

I'll also echo the confusion on the greyed out text Passives and the vague way they are sidestepped in the rules as currently written. I sat there for a while trying to figure out what the heck things like Firepower were for, or if they're somehow impacting the stats on the card. If they aren't going to be used for anything other than a note for construction, then it would be helpful to say that specifically. Maybe even split them out on the card as like Special Rules for the things that matter and Notes for a place to dump construction facts.

DevianID

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #73 on: 22 January 2023, 23:07:12 »
Quote
Perhaps it should be considered for deselection from the initial rules then?

I think the condor is in the packs, so its in the initial batch.  The other option for the condor is to give it long rangex3 and whatever else they came up with in their construction rules to make the condor do less damage then the pegasus (the condor does 15 in classic to the pegasus 21-29 max) but have the condor deal its lowered damage out to 18 hexes.

When I converted the condor and pegasus from their actual BV of 653 and 640, the condor has slightly less armor but about that difference in firepower.  So both would be 13 points in my BMM BSP pricing guide of 50 BV to 1 BSP, or 22 v 21 if using the suggested 30 BV to 1 BSP; the condor would do 2x5 damage at 18 compared to the Pegasus dealing 2x10 damage at range 9.
« Last Edit: 22 January 2023, 23:14:51 by DevianID »

jasonf

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #74 on: 23 January 2023, 12:22:08 »
Ok, I playtested a second game. I did all brawler/sniper mechs and tanks to see what the Assets would look like in a game where units should just be beating the crap out of each other since it seemed it could test the two biggest issues I (and others) have found so far (Low DCTR and all-or-nothing damage).

I also let 2 Bots fight it out on MegaMek to simulate the TW outcome of exactly the forces I used, so I had a benchmark of what should be left on the board for the winning side, on average. I played with vehicle abandonment since it looks like these rules count Immobile = Dead for Assets.

Both sides had the same units: 1x Thunderbolt 5S, 1x Warhammer 6R, 1x Blackjack BJ-1 (all VT), 2x Shreck, 2x Ontos, 2x Manticore (all RG)

In 10 MegaMek games, the winner was random, and the Bots are a bit more timid than humans, so games lasted about 21 rounds on average. The winner had 1 or 2 'Mechs and 3 vehicles survive, on average (usually the Schreks and Ontoses).

On the tabletop with the current beta rules (I just played through once), the game ended after 10 rounds and the winner had all 3 'Mechs (though 1 would have been a Forced Withdrawal), and only 1 tank remaining (Ontos).

Main Issues so far, ranked:
After that 2nd game and after reading through others' tests, I'd rank the issues with the current version of the rules as follows:
1. DC TR is too low for most units. The big tanks in my 2nd playthrough lasted longer than expected, but for the wrong reasons. It wasn't that it took a few Turns to denigrate them then boom,  it was more like... "miss, miss, miss, hit with 40pts of damage and need a 4+ to kill you... dead."

2. Damage is too all-or-nothing (see the "miss, miss, miss, hit" example above).

3. The TMM bonus for parking in the woods is a pain, as NeonKnight noted. I had a point in my game where two opposing Ontoses were adjacent to each other and both in woods and took forever to kill each other since both essentially needed an 8+ to do 40pts of damage or otherwise missed entirely.

4. Some vehicles are OP relative to what they do in TW (like the VTOL), while others seem way too weak relative to TW (BA in general, big tanks in survivability)

5. BSP Cost Points to BV is not constant across Assets and seems just way off for some. It looks like the range is between 24 BV per BSP (SRM Carrier) to 83 BV per BSP (Manticore). That's a pretty big range. I know some BSP costs should be off because of differences in rules (like BV vs. PV), but these ranges seem too wide. I like DevianID's rule of an average of 50 BV per BSP, with only a deviation of a few BSP in either direction to account for TW/BS rules differences.  [Note: this really comes into play when Assets are asymmetric on each side, which will often be the case in Clan vs. IS games.]

Suggested fixes:
Here are what my suggestions are so far. I mentioned some earlier, so I won't go into much detail. I am also warming to a rule of "If we can fix a game balance issue here using a rule that already exists in Alpha Strike, then do that." If you think there's a chance of any of these being implemented, I can try and replay a playtest or two using these adjustments and see how they play.

1. Buff DC TR across the board, but also buff Denigration values (for example, to scale with amount of damage done in a round).  In math terms, this is essentially increasing the mean-time-to-failure of each asset without increasing its (eventual) probability of failure. This should help the big tanks become more durable while keeping the light tanks as fast-moving target practice.

2. Nerf the base to-hit from 6 to 5, but also nerf the damage done. It seems like the math for damage is that if an Asset hits, it does about 80-100% of the damage from its turret weapons or front weapons (if no turret), assuming that clusters always roll a 7. You likely want to nerf that to 60% of weapons hit, with the same assumption on cluster damage. That would move the amount of damage an SRM carrier does from 80pts to 50pts, an LRM Carrier from 30pts to 25pts, and an Ontos from 40pts to 25pts. Some tweaks that would help balancing this fix:
--Use 5pt damage groupings for the whole BSP system (Assets, Asset Specials, and Strikes) and let the DMG(DV) value = the number of 5pt groupings it hits with. The current setup of 5 or 10 really only makes sense for big-gun Assets like the Schrek and Demolisher, but oddly turns SRM and LRM Carriers into head-cappers instead of crit-chance machines. Making all damage 5-pt intervals would make Assets dangerous enough to not ignore, but would keep the head-capping as the purview of 'Mechs vs. 'Mechs, which seems more in the spirit of the system's intent.
--You could offset the nerf in damage done with a modification of an AS rule: Rolling a natural 12 does 80-100% of the turret/front weapons' damage. So, the normal damage from a Shreck would be 20pts, and a natural 12 would make it 30pts. You could reflect this with a +# for the damage value on the card (maybe in gray parentheses). If you also went with the 5pt groupings, the Schrek's damage would be DMG: 4(+2); the SRM Carrier would be DMG: 10(+6).

3. Use the Alpha Strike rules for standing still for TMM and THM. This is essentially what NeonKnight suggested, minus the 1/2 TMM for 1/ movement (to keep it simple). Specifically, move at least 1 hex, otherwise TMM = +0, but if you do stay still, you also get -1 to-hit mod.

4. Add a few simple Specials to distinguish vehicles better. Three that I thought could be easily implemented are:
--Short #N. First, I would adjust the base damage to reflect average damage a vehicle does from its long-range turret weapons (or LR front if no turret). If it did additional damage from weapons with significantly shorter ranges (not counting 0-3 range weapons), the Short special would allow the Asset to inflict an additional #N 5pt damage groupings to any target within 6 hexes (anywhere, or in its front arc, if it also has the No Turret Special). [This would differentiate the Condor, which would now use its AC/5 as its base range & damage, and then have its 2 Med Lasers reflected in its Short Special. You could do the same thing with the Ontos, using its 2 LRM 5's as its main weapon, and its 8 Med Lasers as its Short Special.]
--Front #N. This works the same as Short #N, but the #N is the number of additional 5pt damage groupings the Asset does to a unit in its front arc (at the same range as its base damage). This would be incompatible with the No Turret Special (since it reflects damage that is in addition to the turret weapons). It would now make it foolish to stand right in front of some Assets... examples would be the Maxim (which has 2x LRM 5's in its Front) and the Behemoth (which has 4x LRM 5's in its front, not to mention it would also get a Short Special... it should be painfully dumb to stand in directly front of a Behemoth).
--Min Range(N). This would just give a minimum range to some Asset main attacks, and should just note that the attack has minimum range as described in AGoAC, with its THM adjusted as per those rules. In this case, an LRM Carrier would have a Min Range(6) Special, and a Schrek a Min Range(3) special. [It should actually be pretty smart to stand directly in front of an LRM Carrier.]


Also, when thinking of my next playtest (which is Clan vs. LosTech IS), I immediately had a couple "gut-check" thoughts:
1. Are you guys also going to include LosTech variants of the included vehicles on the back of the Asset Cards? (as with AS Cards?) 
2. Sorry to rehash the Skill variation thing, but I realized that most Elemental BA are in frontline Clan forces, and most frontline Clan forces are rated "Elite." So, that's another reason for allowing greater Skill variation (though I still think it could be an optional rule and you would only need to add Green and Elite, no need for the full variation).

 

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #75 on: 23 January 2023, 13:22:01 »
I have some catching up to do, but I do want to address one point that I feel is very important, which is that this ruleset is not meant to be a Total Warfare vehicle simulator.  It is its own ruleset, and will produce its own outcomes.  While in general it would be nice if it stayed close to TW outcomes, it is fully expected to heavily deviate from them at times, because it has its own unique goals.  The ruleset needs to be taken on its own terms rather than compared back to what you get if you play TW/use BV: TW already exists for that and Assets are not TW-compliant units.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2023, 14:34:34 by Xotl »
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Fear Factory

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #76 on: 23 January 2023, 15:08:44 »
Why can't movement stay the same instead of being like alpha strike for the sake of consistency? Cruising and Flanking speed? Seems weird to allow assets to do those Alpha Strike cheats with the patented woods or water scoot and shoot.

Only other thing that doesn't do it for me is the attack damage value. I'd rather just roll the weapon hits or use some kind of group fire rule from tacops. Just to keep combat with Assets from feeling the same.

Otherwise, not having to track damage and effects for secondary units is a really good idea. Very interesting observations here.

Also, I vaguely remember vehicle rules being in one of the past intro boxes that worked well.
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Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #77 on: 23 January 2023, 15:34:56 »
Why can't movement stay the same instead of being like alpha strike for the sake of consistency? Cruising and Flanking speed? Seems weird to allow assets to do those Alpha Strike cheats with the patented woods or water scoot and shoot.

The main issue there is that these are designed to be simple: fast play, easy use.  You are assumed to be adding them to a mech force, and they're inflating your force size far beyond standard mech play (where even lance on lance struggles to be completed in an afternoon).  So a lot of the things that slow play in classic BT have to go.  Counting range brackets, counting minimum ranges, tracking ammo, consulting the cluster hit table and of course, picking movement modes and counting hexes moved for optimum TMM vs attack mod calculations on a per-unit basis.  You simply have to sacrifice fidelity to make these usable at the scale they're intended to be fielded at.  The real vehicle rules still exist for people who want traditional granularity, and every step that puts us more towards that is one that moves us away from the core intent of the Assets rules, and thus will get a very skeptical eye.

That having been said, there's definitely issues with woods camping and we'll be looking at that closely.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #78 on: 23 January 2023, 16:24:51 »
The main issue there is that these are designed to be simple: fast play, easy use.  You are assumed to be adding them to a mech force, and they're inflating your force size far beyond standard mech play (where even lance on lance struggles to be completed in an afternoon).  So a lot of the things that slow play in classic BT have to go.  Counting range brackets, counting minimum ranges, tracking ammo, consulting the cluster hit table and of course, picking movement modes and counting hexes moved for optimum TMM vs attack mod calculations on a per-unit basis.  You simply have to sacrifice fidelity to make these usable at the scale they're intended to be fielded at.  The real vehicle rules still exist for people who want traditional granularity, and every step that puts us more towards that is one that moves us away from the core intent of the Assets rules, and thus will get a very skeptical eye.

That having been said, there's definitely issues with woods camping and we'll be looking at that closely.

A quick...and I mean quick fix is to limit the TMM's to:

+0 max for infantry
+1 max for all vehicles
+2 for all Vtols.

keeps the whole, don;t need to track movement TMM's, can keep if they sit still, but also don;t overly break the game.

Again, these are quick, dirty, should not break too much the balance, and also points to a "You want more crunch, here's where you can find the full rules'"

Because as you said, designed to be simple: fast play, easy to use.
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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #79 on: 23 January 2023, 17:11:43 »
The main issue there is that these are designed to be simple: fast play, easy use.  You are assumed to be adding them to a mech force, and they're inflating your force size far beyond standard mech play (where even lance on lance struggles to be completed in an afternoon).  So a lot of the things that slow play in classic BT have to go.  Counting range brackets, counting minimum ranges, tracking ammo, consulting the cluster hit table and of course, picking movement modes and counting hexes moved for optimum TMM vs attack mod calculations on a per-unit basis.  You simply have to sacrifice fidelity to make these usable at the scale they're intended to be fielded at.  The real vehicle rules still exist for people who want traditional granularity, and every step that puts us more towards that is one that moves us away from the core intent of the Assets rules, and thus will get a very skeptical eye.

That having been said, there's definitely issues with woods camping and we'll be looking at that closely.

But I mean, at this point, why not just play Alpha Strike? Flipping this point, because when people try to mod Alpha Strike, you get the same argument "go play classic."

My biggest gripe for the current vehicle rules is with how complicated they are to track with taking damage and this Asset set is on the right path. "Taking damage" as in crew hits, crits, etc, that you have to remember per turn. However, if I'm playing Classic, I shouldn't be importing methods from Alpha Strike to fix that. They're both different beasts and these arguments behind camping in woods shows it.

If you stick with standard movement it's not that much more complicated and it's consistent with other units on the board. It's important for Classic's game mechanics (again, Alpha Strike movement and camping in woods/water). You can probably, just as easily, take a standard vehicle record sheet and find ways to ignore sections of it. If you keep the weapon list and fire them as normal it's already expected and integral to how the game actually works (choosing what weapons to fire in what order is in the beginner box). This keeps the characteristics/personality of the unit and you can still use the record sheets that are readily available without having to worry about even MORE rules. You could even fit 4 vehicles per sheet if you cross out the tables and the armor charts you won't need anymore. Ignoring parts of a record sheet isn't anything new.

Abstracting taking damage and effects is a great idea because this, in my experience, is where vehicles take the most time. All the turn based effects are stupidly nasty to track and they're easy to forget. Losing abilities doesn't help (ie, crit-seeking with an SRM carrier, it's not all about damage).  This is also in line with how aerotech units work when they're abstracted. Aerotech movement is overly complicated and you can abstract that.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2023, 17:25:27 by Fear Factory »
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Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #80 on: 23 January 2023, 20:20:22 »
Agreed... if these rules aren't on the TW-AS spectrum, then what exactly are they for? ???

Xotl

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #81 on: 23 January 2023, 20:58:10 »
They're a supplement for classic BT play, but that doesn't mean they therefore must follow everything about TW: TW already exists, after all.  Similarly, that then excludes Alpha Strike, an entirely separate system again.

I would like these rules examined on their own merits.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2023, 21:05:05 by Xotl »
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Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #82 on: 23 January 2023, 21:04:12 »
So they're a second vernier to adjust the rules complexity by? ???

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #83 on: 23 January 2023, 21:09:11 »
They're meant to be an adder to AGOAC / TW-style play.  They're not TW, and they're not AS: they're new.  As such, they need to be taken on their own terms, besides their inevitable effect on the AGOAC / TW scenarios they will inevitably wind up in.  I'm not sure what to say beyond that.

I would like these rules examined for their ability to be used at the table alongside Battlemechs, as they were designed.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2023, 21:13:49 by Xotl »
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Daryk

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #84 on: 23 January 2023, 21:12:32 »
I'll take that as a yes... thanks for the reply!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #85 on: 23 January 2023, 22:05:09 »
I'm trying to think through a simple way to handle the TMM camping issue.  I wonder changing the current set up from TMM always on to the unit gets the printed TMM if it moves at least one hex.  Not a perfect fix, as most units would be able to move into a hex change facing and just end right back up where they started and get the TMM.

I get the reason the units have the high TMM, to make things somewhat survivable, as most things would get vaporized far to quickly without them, but it does feel that it removes some key choices from the players (do I go for full TMM defense or move to get a better shot), which is probably good for the less experienced players, but bad for the better players, as there is less poor decisions on your opponent to exploit. 

Between me and my usual opponent I am the worse player.  I have no data on this, but my gut says our games go about 70/30 him.  Will be interesting to see if this changes that ratio.  I don't know that we will be able to get enough games in to get a large enough sample size by the dead line but will be something I try to provide some feed back on.

Would be interested to hear if anyone else has a skill and or style discrepancy between their usually playing partners and how these rules change that dynamic if at all.

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #86 on: 23 January 2023, 23:40:12 »
Hey Xotl, I totally understand your points. I would say that, even if TW never existed, my 1st three issues would still be the main three I'd focus on for revising the current rules (DCTR too low, damage too all-or-nothing, and the TMM of still units). Those all relate to playability independent of whatever roles, comparisons, statistics, etc., Assets may have in TW.

At the same time, there are likely two different audiences that are going to be interested in these rules:
1. New(ish) players that own AGoAC and CI box sets, and don't know much about TW or other rulebooks
2. Experienced players who have been less inclined to use vehicles and infantry because of their rules complexity in TW, and see this as a nice alternative. This group will likely want at least some familiarity they have with existing conventional units to remain relevant when using the BS rules.

The other place where I think some link is still necessary is with getting the CP-BV translation balanced. The main issue is keeping a scenario balanced when there is an asymmetric amount of CP on each side, like when you have a Clan vs. IS game that stays true to cannon. If the Clan force wanted to not spam Elementals, and stick to using only a Star of Elementals +'Mechs, it would need a well-balanced system to make up whatever CP difference it had with the IS force with the right amount of BV dedicated to its 'Mechs.
 

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #87 on: 24 January 2023, 00:20:21 »
So while these vehicles are supposed to be a separate system and we arnt supposed to look at or consider the TW vehicles, I think this falls apart when you make a named BSP 'srm' carrier or 'manticore'.  You are, after all, building a completely different unit using this new construction system since the rules are construction (not conversion based), but its clear you are emulating an SRM carrier.  So when there are big differences in the BSP srm carrier and a normal SRM carrier, its impossible to say "these are a completely separate entity and need to be looked at in a vacuum".  It cant be a completely separate entity, as its emulating a specific TW tank, and when that BSP unit operates differently then the vehicle it is named and modeled after, such as the TMM in woods, it presents a problem.  (Edit: im not saying BSP vees dont work, ive been using them for a while with Tukayyid and they do work.  But only the ones with realistic destroy TNs or the spammable cheap infantry to spot for player mechs.  A tank with a 4+ destroy TN like the presented SRM carrier is not useful as while TW SRM carriers are very fragile, that fragility by my math is about an 8+ to destroy... no vehicle in TW has so little armor that a single medium laser destroys it 92% of the time as seen with the 4+ destroy TN BSP vehicles)

The vehicles in Tukayyid could not be matched to any existing vehicles.  You could kinda get close, like the light hover is kinda a savanah master, but also not really cause it had a turret.  Thus, I feel the TMM abstraction worked better there--those BSP vees wernt trying to be an existing TW unit like a manticore or srm carrier, so the TMM being different could also be abstracted as ghost targeting or stealth armor or some such.

In my test games, woods camping hasnt been an issue so far with assets versus mechs.  The assets that I have tried are the schrek and the vedette, soon the manticore, and the BSP medium field guns.  The vedette has the best TMM at +3, 4 in woods, but the damage was so pathetic they made no impact and died to the first damage roll when random shots hit.  The schrek did great damage, but the +1 tmm didnt contribute to it dying or living... mechs get the same total TMM in heavy woods for free so all the +1 TMM for standing still in light woods did was put the 2 snipers on equal ground (but the schrek pays 2 MP for running)  The Schreks died cause multiple mechs moved adjacent and shot and kicked 80+ damage on it, both my opponent play groups learned to only engage my heavy tanks when they had dealt with the more maneuverable threats and could dog pile for the massive damage needed to auto destroy them.  I think because vees must pay the +2 run to hit penalty, them getting 'free' tmm is fine, as its a net loss for them unless they also get the woods bonus.  So with woods cover they break even.  This is why its not comparable to alpha strike--in alpha strike you dont get a +2 penalty for running, so a vehicle with 1 TMM in woods has a net +2 bonus on defense versus attacks in alpha strike.  With the run penalty in classic, needing woods to break even +2 for +2 for tanks is a fine place to be, seeing as mechs still get +0 for +2 in heavy woods.  Honestly I would trade my entire TMM for every BSP to not take that run penalty, even on the fast hover tanks, as the BSP assets are so disposable anyway a bit of evasion isnt helping them--thus its not a good idea to let these tanks 'stand still' to lose their TMM to gain a bonus to hit.

It is possible to build a conversion based rules set for these assets--it doesnt have to be the one I built in this thread--that is able to integrate with other books and systems.  I feel like its more work to keep ignoring TW exists, which means I dont see these rules catching on as presented.  Going back to the point as the start, its impossible to ignore TW when you are making BSP assets like the 'srm carrier' and 'elemental' at are obviously TW vehicles and battle armor.  I still see no reason not to price these units the same, or close enough to the same, as their obvious TW equals.  Thus, if the design team wants 30 BV to 1 BSP to be a thing, its super easy to build elementals to be 447/30 in BSP points.  Just give them long rangex2, TMM+1, and whatever else you guys put in the construction design that makes them the correct cost.  Thus, the bsp elemental, if you want 30-1 ratio, is 15 BSP and not 6, and you can make a roster with both TW elementals or BSP elementals without changing anything else in the roster.

Edit: I think in place of some of the optional rules we have now, we should have an optional rule for multiple attack rolls.  The 'Instead of a single attack roll, make an attack roll for each cluster of damage' kind of rule.  That one line in place of a much more complicated 'Flatbed truck' that doesnt even have a model is a better use of the optional rules section in my opinion, and hopefully makes everyone happy.

Edit2: I played two small games with just light/heavy strikes and air cover today in 4v4 and 2v1 quick games.  6 light air cover with 4 strikes, versus 6 heavy strikes.  The strikes made the players not want to bring super fast light mechs (which is a feature IMHO) as the mission rolled for the first game was 'run across the board', with the players getting a 2 turn head start.  So the strikes 'kept them honest' as a dasher would be wiped out easily.  So the lighest mech they brought was a nova, and versus the summoner/thor I targeted I did great damage but failed to get any internals (and just one head hit).  This made the Thor play defensive versus the chasing mechs, which was good.  The 6 heavy strikes saw some fizzle with a missed hit roll/cover intercept, but did impact the players force selection and gameplay without killing anything off the bat.  On the next sample game, the player rolled hot on the 9+ light air cover's to stop my heavy strikes, and I missed two of the 3 remaining attacks, so I only did 20 damage.  Enough for a PSR and a repair bill, but nothing that swung the game.  The players didnt use their strikes as they killed the enemy mech with an ammo explosion on turn 2 and so any declared strikes at that point were wasted.  The players were a little scared of the strikes, and didnt like not being able to bring light fast mechs, but I liked that they couldnt bring light fast mechs to just win the mission with a dasher on turn 2, when I only come on turn 3.  Thus the strikes making them 'play the game' instead of cheese it with fast lights, despite the players disliking that, was probably goot for balance.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2023, 02:47:43 by DevianID »

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #88 on: 24 January 2023, 09:49:51 »
The interactions between assets and strikes and TW ground units are pretty straightforward, but what about aero? How do TW aerospace units interact with Offensive or Defensive Aero Support cards?

Suggestion: Define a tonnage to act as the divider between Light and Heavy. (I suggest 5-55 = Light and 60+ = Heavy, but that's just an initial number.) An armed Aerospace or Conventional Fighter that is in a position to attack the ground battlefield may forgo its attack for that turn to instead be treated as a Defensive Aerospace Support card of the appropriate size, and thus try to nullify an Offensive Aero card(enemy TW Aeros must be attacked normally). Similarly, Defensive Aero cards may be played to prevent a TW aero from attacking that turn, though they inflict no actual damage. For simplicity's sake, TW Small Craft and DropShips are too large to be stopped by Defensive cards, and too cumbersome to intercept Offensive cards.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Battlefield Support Rules Open Beta - Feedback and Discussion
« Reply #89 on: 24 January 2023, 09:59:16 »
The interactions between assets and strikes and TW ground units are pretty straightforward, but what about aero? How do TW aerospace units interact with Offensive or Defensive Aero Support cards?

Suggestion: Define a tonnage to act as the divider between Light and Heavy. (I suggest 5-55 = Light and 60+ = Heavy, but that's just an initial number.) An armed Aerospace or Conventional Fighter that is in a position to attack the ground battlefield may forgo its attack for that turn to instead be treated as a Defensive Aerospace Support card of the appropriate size, and thus try to nullify an Offensive Aero card(enemy TW Aeros must be attacked normally). Similarly, Defensive Aero cards may be played to prevent a TW aero from attacking that turn, though they inflict no actual damage. For simplicity's sake, TW Small Craft and DropShips are too large to be stopped by Defensive cards, and too cumbersome to intercept Offensive cards.

Are you talking of...I have some actual, for real, full stated Aero Unit's on the map-board and are looking for how a unit of those interacts with an Aero-Strike BSP card?
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