Author Topic: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show  (Read 8266 times)

Øystein

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To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« on: 24 September 2021, 13:37:52 »
So, figured we should have a thread about the Foundation TV show on Apple TV+.

(First episode was free for me, there are another episode available - just haven't subscribed yet, and it will drop each friday)

So the first episodes of Foundation dropped, my impression from the first one is very positive.
It's been a while since I read the series and I know it starts by setting up the premise (which is one of the prequel stories I believe), but it's enjoyable and sets the scene for the universe well I thought.
Magnificent and grand, it paints well the picture of Trantor and the Imperium.

(And I loved seeing Alexander Siddig in a good role).


Bedwyr

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #1 on: 24 September 2021, 14:16:32 »
I was looking at a couple of reviews earlier. IO9 was not impressed and seemed to think it was a mess, in line with general assumptions that filming Foundation is impossible. Ars Technica was much more impressed, but agreed that this was a reinterpretation of the books rather than an implementation.
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worktroll

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #2 on: 24 September 2021, 14:46:10 »
Visually, looks like they're going for a GoT in space aesthetic.

If I can cope with - heck, deeply love - the 80s version of Dune, I can at least give this a try.
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Øystein

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #3 on: 24 September 2021, 15:00:42 »
Personally I never read reviews or care about them. They are only other people's opinions and not the "truth".

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #4 on: 24 September 2021, 15:24:53 »
I was looking at a couple of reviews earlier. IO9 was not impressed and seemed to think it was a mess, in line with general assumptions that filming Foundation is impossible. Ars Technica was much more impressed, but agreed that this was a reinterpretation of the books rather than an implementation.

Probably for the best, kinda like Lord of the Rings, if they copied it directly from the book it would be 72 hours long. 71.5 of those hours would be split between walking, HUGE amounts of dialogue, singing, and more walking.

THe action scene in Moria would be

"They have a cave troll!"
"A sting indeed!"
*FLUBBER MOTHERING BALROG*
"Fly you fools!"
"GANDAAAAAAAAAAAALF."

*END*

And now for 45 minutes more of walking and talking as the above sequence took all of 3 minutes.

So if an adaptation is needed to make The Foundation work, thats fine :)

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #5 on: 24 September 2021, 15:27:42 »
I think the big thing Ars noted was that there's not much character development because the history moves past individuals so quickly. That's not amenable to filming at all, so yeah. Agreed.
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #6 on: 24 September 2021, 22:56:05 »
I think they should have started with the two prequel novels.  They were more engaging than the original Foundation stories and would provide the necessary backstory.

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #7 on: 26 September 2021, 19:03:39 »
I watched the first two episodes. Really liked the first, but the second has me asking, "Okay now where are we going with this?"

I recall the books being very abstract, so the screenwriters have a lot of room to fill things in or just make stuff up. I like seeing them do so, to a point. We'll see if they pass that point.

It seems to sweep up influences from all sorts of science fiction, not just Asimov. Somehow I doubt Kim Stanley Robinson is getting royalties for that depiction of a collapsing beanstalk.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #8 on: 28 September 2021, 23:29:11 »
I read the first three books probably 35 years ago and did not care for them at all. So I cautiously approached this series.

Verdict on the first two eps:

Visuals: great
Acting/dialogue: Except for Jared Harris, not great*
Story: Boring as ****** so far

* Lee Pace is, I guess, kinda acceptable, though a bit hammy. The guy who plays Raych is the worst. And what seemed like some shitty ADR in the first episode with him and with that spy guy was very, very distracting.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #9 on: 15 October 2021, 19:32:42 »
So, I got to Ep. 2, and seeing Eto Demerzel lead what was basically an Imperial hit squad led me to conclude:

THAT.

IS.

NOT.

ASIMOV.

The show runners clearly don't get Asimov.  Even Asimov's daughter Robyn, who is credited as an executive producer (and I believe is serving in some advisory capacity?), doesn't get her father's writings if she let the writing staff get away with such a clear violation of the First and Second Laws of Robotics.  Unless this take on Eto Demerzel is NOT the same character who Eto turned out to be in the prequel novels, there's no way Asimov himself would've written such behaviour for that character.

Given that this Eto is supposed to be the last survivor of the "Robot Wars" (more Dune than Foundation, IMO), perhaps in the universe that's been created here, these wars were fought against robots who somehow overcame their programming and didn't recognize the Laws? (Think dozens or even hundreds of units of Lore from TNG and how much damage they could do)

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

worktroll

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #10 on: 15 October 2021, 19:55:39 »
No offense meant, but anyone going into this show expecting Asimov is going to be severely disappointed, but should not be surprised. Much like I, Robot - a film based on the name of a book by Asimov. His novels are too cerebral to be filmed as big spectacle series, which is where the money is. I believe that the showrunners are quite honest about labelling it as "an ïnterpretation",  not as based on the novels.

And if you're having trouble now, I can only imagine how they'll present The Mule. But I hope to see this series sometime - not as something based on novels I highly enjoy, but as a TV sci-fi show.
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Øystein

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #11 on: 16 October 2021, 01:16:10 »
So, I got to Ep. 2, and seeing Eto Demerzel lead what was basically an Imperial hit squad led me to conclude:

THAT.

IS.

NOT.

ASIMOV.

The show runners clearly don't get Asimov.  Even Asimov's daughter Robyn, who is credited as an executive producer (and I believe is serving in some advisory capacity?), doesn't get her father's writings if she let the writing staff get away with such a clear violation of the First and Second Laws of Robotics.

The more important question is:
How important is that detail to the main story of Foundation itself? Don't drag Asimovs other writing into it - just Foundation.

Does the robotic laws form a core tennent of that story? Is it extremely important? Or is it only important when you look at the greater picture of his assosiated writing like the Cages of Steel etc?

They will never do a 1:1 convertion of a novel because it is impossible to do (and the result would make Uwe Boll's movies look like masterpieces). And fans are - well - fans. I just rememebr the nerdrage over that Dany didn't have purple eyes in GoT, and her hair was too long/short/white/yellow/curly/noncurly.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #12 on: 16 October 2021, 18:00:23 »
No offense meant, but anyone going into this show expecting Asimov is going to be severely disappointed, but should not be surprised. Much like I, Robot - a film based on the name of a book by Asimov. His novels are too cerebral to be filmed as big spectacle series, which is where the money is. I believe that the showrunners are quite honest about labelling it as "an ïnterpretation",  not as based on the novels.


Um, it explicitly says "Based on the novels by Isaac Asimov" in the opening credits.

And to be fair, it has *slightly* more to do with the source material than the _I, Robot_ movie.

The more important question is:
How important is that detail to the main story of Foundation itself? Don't drag Asimovs other writing into it - just Foundation.

Does the robotic laws form a core tennent of that story? Is it extremely important? Or is it only important when you look at the greater picture of his assosiated writing like the Cages of Steel etc?

Considering that it was Asimov himself who decided to turn his Empire, Robot, and Foundation series into a shared universe (with admittedly uneven results)--and wrote the Foundation prequel novels to bridge them--it is totally appropriate to "drag" his other works into it, especially since the writers DID mine those novels for material; Raych was only introduced as a character in those books, and everything Eto/Daneel did was motivated by the Laws of Robotics and his desire to preserve humanity as much as possible.

They will never do a 1:1 convertion of a novel because it is impossible to do (and the result would make Uwe Boll's movies look like masterpieces). And fans are - well - fans. I just rememebr the nerdrage over that Dany didn't have purple eyes in GoT, and her hair was too long/short/white/yellow/curly/noncurly.

The colour of Dany's hair and eyes are mere cosmetic details. The Laws of Robotics are one of the major fundamental philosophical underpinnings of Asimov's stories involving robots; it's what makes Asimov Asimov.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Øystein

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #13 on: 17 October 2021, 01:33:19 »
Considering that it was Asimov himself who decided to turn his Empire, Robot, and Foundation series into a shared universe (with admittedly uneven results)--and wrote the Foundation prequel novels to bridge them--it is totally appropriate to "drag" his other works into it, especially since the writers DID mine those novels for material; Raych was only introduced as a character in those books, and everything Eto/Daneel did was motivated by the Laws of Robotics and his desire to preserve humanity as much as possible.

Yes, and that aspect is pretty well preserved I think. And consider that the most important law of robotics that supersedes all the others is the Zeroth law:
Quote
"A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm."
That is quoted by Daneel him/itself in one of the Foundation books. And is the law necessary for robots to be able to help govern and guide humanity.

And is the age old philosophical question of "When does the right of the one supersede the right of the many?" and is a question we still hotly debate today (without starting to break the rules).

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #14 on: 17 October 2021, 17:22:46 »
The Laws of Robotics are one of the major fundamental philosophical underpinnings of Asimov's stories involving robots; it's what makes Asimov Asimov.

Not only in Asimovs stories but also as a... foundation to be used in reality as the basis for the real laws of robotics and AI (of course... excepting the military uses I guess).
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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #15 on: 17 October 2021, 19:10:16 »

And if you're having trouble now, I can only imagine how they'll present The Mule. But I hope to see this series sometime - not as something based on novels I highly enjoy, but as a TV sci-fi show.

I'm waiting to see how they handle the Second Foundation, because as things are shaping up, both Gail Gaal and Salvor seem they're better candidates for that than for the First Foundation.  Gaal has her premonitions before disasters (and what was that with waking up on the jumpship?) and Salvor seems to be an outright telepath. 

I'm guessing they'll approach it as a slightly more benevolent version of B5's Psi Corps.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #16 on: 18 October 2021, 17:33:30 »
Yes, and that aspect is pretty well preserved I think. And consider that the most important law of robotics that supersedes all the others is the Zeroth law:That is quoted by Daneel him/itself in one of the Foundation books. And is the law necessary for robots to be able to help govern and guide humanity.

And is the age old philosophical question of "When does the right of the one supersede the right of the many?" and is a question we still hotly debate today (without starting to break the rules).

No it isn't.  Asimov himself gave one example (possibly two) of what happens when robots break one of the other three laws in order to satisfy the Zeroth Law--when Giskard allowed Earth to die to encourage humanity to spread throughout the galaxy. Yes, it was to help fulfill the greater long-term plan, but it still ended up causing direct short-term harm to humans, and Giskard's brain couldn't handle the contradiction; he effectively sacrificed himself to ensure that future.
(The other possible example is Dors Venabili killing a traitor within the ranks of Seldon's group to save the project, but she had already been subjected to an EMP attack so the cause of "death" isn't clear-cut.)

The Eto in the TV series seems to be fulfilling a fundamentally different role than Eto/Daneel in the books; the TV version is acting (so far) primarily to preserve the Empire (and functions as a member of the Imperial household), whereas the book version was quite willing to let the Empire eventually collapse and instead nudge Seldon in the "right" direction, seeing that as the better course for preserving human civilization (of course, he also had an ace in the hole in Gaia).  So, if the basic Three Laws were still holding like Asimov laid out, even if TV-Eto saw preserving the Empire as fulfilling the Zeroth Law, she should've still shut down not only from ordering the strike, but standing by and watching people suffer, despite their role in facilitating the attack on Trantor. 

The writers probably figured this kind of adherence to the basic Three Laws was just too inconvenient for dramatic and plotting purposes and dispensed with it. Then again, they seem to have decided on a completely different (Dune-like) backstory for Eto and robots.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #17 on: 18 October 2021, 19:38:56 »
eto/daneel had an interesting conversation that was started by empire regarding human/robot wars and it revealed quite a bit robots during war had no laws and eto was the last survivor. not sure episode or of which cleon had had that conversation
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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #18 on: 18 October 2021, 20:51:03 »
eto/daneel had an interesting conversation that was started by empire regarding human/robot wars and it revealed quite a bit robots during war had no laws and eto was the last survivor. not sure episode or of which cleon had had that conversation

We don't know that TV-Eto is actually Daneel.  I'm just calling her TV-Eto until it's shown otherwise.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #19 on: 18 October 2021, 21:31:39 »
An interesting and relevant tidbit from an AMA that David Goyer did a few days ago:

Quote from: David Goyer
Asimov’s Robotics Laws do exist in the universe of the show – but that doesn’t necessarily mean Demerzel is presently bound by them. And to explain further would spoil far too much!

To clarify another issue – R. Daneel Olivaw is part of the I, Robot rights, which Skydance/Apple do not have access to. We have access to the Demerzel side of the character, if that makes sense.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #20 on: 19 October 2021, 04:12:47 »
An interesting and relevant tidbit from an AMA that David Goyer did a few days ago:

That's interesting. Guess they explain why Demerzel isn't bound by the laws later in the show. OTH it shows that they don't own the rights for the other Asimov books like I Robot which limits them.
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #21 on: 19 October 2021, 21:07:00 »
An interesting and relevant tidbit from an AMA that David Goyer did a few days ago:

Well, that tells me that TV-Eto is NOT Daneel, and so they can do whatever they like with the character.

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #22 on: 21 October 2021, 06:41:09 »
I was looking at a couple of reviews earlier. IO9 was not impressed and seemed to think it was a mess, in line with general assumptions that filming Foundation is impossible. Ars Technica was much more impressed, but agreed that this was a reinterpretation of the books rather than an implementation.
I've read the (i think) entire series.  Frankly if the show is seen as mess, well....novels continuity / plots are too. Asimov passing away, then have bunch of different people tactical Foundation's canon. Its bound to change.  To me, you need one unifying vision for any given story and stick with guns with it and make sure there solid bible to the entire thing.

Foundation doesn't seem to really have it, at least the written one.   I am properly going be waiting a long time till i can see this since I'm not a Apple TV subscriber.  I for one think going be radically different, many artistic decisions will be made going against what Asimov wrote.  Some of it may be not clicking with audiences the television show hopes to reach.

I don't know much about Asimov's daughter Robyn, but just because your related doesn't mean you understand mind behind parent's face or their thinking. 

I can only hope for the best.
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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #23 on: 21 October 2021, 22:57:56 »
I've read the (i think) entire series.  Frankly if the show is seen as mess, well....novels continuity / plots are too. Asimov passing away, then have bunch of different people tactical Foundation's canon. Its bound to change.  To me, you need one unifying vision for any given story and stick with guns with it and make sure there solid bible to the entire thing.

Point taken, but Asimov himself didn't originally intend for the Empire, Foundation, and Robot novels to be in a single shared universe, and his later attempts to tie them together sometimes came across as pretty forced and ham-fisted (Foundation and Earth and Robots and Empire being the most egregious examples).  And don't get me started about the post-Asimov novels.

Although, come to think of it, that does provide a way the show's writers can have their cake and eat it with regard to the Laws of Robotics, if they go the "Caliban" route and assert that the robots involved in these "Robot Wars" were designed without the Laws being hard-wired, and were thus reprogrammable. Another solution is one provided by Asimov himself, and that is by tweaking the definition of what a human is; recall that the Solarians, after isolating themselves, programmed their robots to recognize only people who spoke with their world's distinctive accent as human.

Foundation doesn't seem to really have it, at least the written one.   I am properly going be waiting a long time till i can see this since I'm not a Apple TV subscriber.  I for one think going be radically different, many artistic decisions will be made going against what Asimov wrote.  Some of it may be not clicking with audiences the television show hopes to reach.

Oh I'm sure they've got a bible for the show.  But not much in it is actually Asimov.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

worktroll

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #24 on: 21 October 2021, 23:38:51 »
Point taken, but Asimov himself didn't originally intend for the Empire, Foundation, and Robot novels to be in a single shared universe, and his later attempts to tie them together sometimes came across as pretty forced and ham-fisted (Foundation and Earth and Robots and Empire being the most egregious examples).  And don't get me started about the post-Asimov novels.

QFT, brother!  :thumbsup:
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* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
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* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #25 on: 24 October 2021, 19:11:27 »
So, not only do we have a robot who may or may not be inculcated with the Laws of Robotics, we have a robot who BELIEVES.
Shades of nuBSG Cylons here?

What do you think the chances are that TV-Eto will now betray the Clones Cleons?

Also what's with Hugo siding with the Foundation?  Just because he's got it on with Sal?  He's Thespin, the Empire devastated his home world just like they did with Anacreon. Shouldn't he hate the Foundation just as much as the Anacreons?  Or is it just because the Anacreons happen to be shooting at him too?

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

glitterboy2098

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #26 on: 24 October 2021, 20:15:31 »
I was looking at a couple of reviews earlier. IO9 was not impressed and seemed to think it was a mess, in line with general assumptions that filming Foundation is impossible. Ars Technica was much more impressed, but agreed that this was a reinterpretation of the books rather than an implementation.
given how quickly that the books became out of date in their technical aspects, this is probably the only way you could do the setting today. because if you tell people that the Empire required computers the size of buildings to do simple calculations, or that "atomic piles" allowed faster than light travel, you'd never get anywhere with modern audiences. likewise their story, while having lots of parts that resonate with later audiences, are structured in a way that really doesn't translate well between eras, much less mediums. (for example, most people nowadays have a better grasp of the limits of psychology and sociology, which puts the predictive aspects of psychohistory as needing more handwaving, etc.)

plus lets face it.. George Lucas pilfered so much of the Foundation series to make Star Wars, that any attempt to be fully authentic to the books is going to run into the "hey they're ripping off star wars" reaction)
« Last Edit: 24 October 2021, 20:20:08 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #27 on: 31 October 2021, 05:46:44 »
I’ve watched up to ep 6 so far (will check 7 when I get home). To be fair, I’ve not read the books though I do know the basic gist. I’ve liked what I’ve watched so far.

Ruger

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #28 on: 31 October 2021, 08:25:16 »
I’ve watched up to ep 6 so far (will check 7 when I get home). To be fair, I’ve not read the books though I do know the basic gist. I’ve liked what I’ve watched so far.

The books are great, but not for everyone (like most of Asimov’s writing). Especially in the first three, virtually all the real action happens “off camera/screen”. There are small amounts here and there, but for the most part, it’s just not an action series.

I got into Asimov’s writing (and some other authors inspired by him; such as the Robot City books) at a young age (between 4th and 6th grade), so I have a bit of a bias.

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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #29 on: 01 November 2021, 15:54:57 »

What do you think the chances are that TV-Eto will now betray the Clones Cleons?


Cheers,

Gabe


Well, guess that's not going to happen, since TV-Eto is apparently programmed for loyalty to the Imperial house (whoever it may be) despite being an adherent of Luminism.

And that was too pat a disposal of Hugo.  He could've been useful for other things.

Anyway, looks like we're finally getting somewhere.  With being both a math whiz and having some latent precognitive ability, it seems like TV-Gaal is being set up to lead the Second Foundation--notice that Holo-Hari even mentioned a "First Foundation" as being the one on Terminus.  TV-Sal, who seems to be an outright telepath, would seemingly be the better choice, but she seems destined to save the Foundation on Terminus, so...

Think that the current reigning Cleon is going to be hoist with his own petard trying to sway the Luminists with his pilgrimage?  He's got those nanobots that can protect him from exposure to the elements (up to a point, presumably), but if he's cheating, as it were, won't that just play into Halima's hands if it gets out?
(And that talk of walking the spiral brought to mind the Pattern and the Logrus from Roger Zelazny's Amber books, for some odd reason...)


Oh, and FYI:  the next two episodes are directed by Roxann Dawson (a.k.a. B'Elanna from ST:VOY).  Don't know if that'll make them much better than the rest; what's her reputation as a director?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #30 on: 06 November 2021, 20:20:53 »
OK, so they didn't just kill off Hugo.  A roguish scrounger like that is too good and useful a character to simply just do in.  Did the other Thespins pick him up though?

And the current reigning Cleon managed to survive his pilgrimage without cheating tech.  Is it such a big deal that he didn't experience a vision in the cave though?  Still, the fact that he ordered Halima assassinated afterwards just goes to show that she was probably right about him, at least being incapable of personal growth.  This was sort of his equivalent of his predecessor's ordering the bombardment of Anacreon and Thespis.

What is Gaal's purpose in this story other than narrator?  After all that, she's just going back to her homeworld?  Anyway, avoids more anti-Asimov sacrilege...Helicon as Star's End? :(

cheers,

Gabe





So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #31 on: 06 November 2021, 20:23:08 »

It seems to sweep up influences from all sorts of science fiction, not just Asimov. Somehow I doubt Kim Stanley Robinson is getting royalties for that depiction of a collapsing beanstalk.

And Paul W. S. Anderson won't get any for that clear rip-off of the Event Horizon's jump drive.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

roosterboy

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #32 on: 06 November 2021, 20:45:35 »
OK, so they didn't just kill off Hugo.  A roguish scrounger like that is too good and useful a character to simply just do in.

I mean... wasn't that incredibly obvious last week? "Hey, there's a Thespin comms outpost in this system, if only someone could get to it they could send a message out." Five minutes later: "Oh noes! I, the only Thespin on this expedition, just happened to miss my mark and am flying off into space in this system that definitely doesn't have a Thespin comms outpost!"

This show looks really good but damn, the writing sucks so bad. Of course, I shouldn't have expected much from David Goyer, he of the "She-Hulk is a giant green porn star who the Hulk could ******" opinion. Unless the show massively improves in its final two S1 episodes, I'm done. But I'm not even sure it possible to improve that much, based on the previous 8.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #33 on: 06 November 2021, 23:20:20 »
I mean... wasn't that incredibly obvious last week? "Hey, there's a Thespin comms outpost in this system, if only someone could get to it they could send a message out." Five minutes later: "Oh noes! I, the only Thespin on this expedition, just happened to miss my mark and am flying off into space in this system that definitely doesn't have a Thespin comms outpost!"

This show looks really good but damn, the writing sucks so bad. Of course, I shouldn't have expected much from David Goyer, he of the "She-Hulk is a giant green porn star who the Hulk could ******" opinion. Unless the show massively improves in its final two S1 episodes, I'm done. But I'm not even sure it possible to improve that much, based on the previous 8.

Well you'd better check out now, because the plan as I understand it is to stretch this thing out over--count 'em--EIGHT series.

I've kept watching so far just to see how much they deviate from/pervert the original source material. I mean, the Second Foundation is still just a plan in Holo-Hari's digitally-replicated mind...it hasn't even been set up yet! At least the lost Imperial battleship actually was an idea taken from the original story, but the execution here is very different. My money's on this thing ending up as an orbital guardian for Terminus.

One thing I really have issues with is the timing of tech advances. The Empire has been around for 11,000 years (right?) but they only got space elevators and genetically-engineered space-jump assistants during the reign of the Cleons? We just learned that on the Invictus, which predates Cleon I by about 300 years, the navigator basically had a VDNI (in BT terms) interface to the nav system, which seems to be why the ship is jumping about randomly (the dead guy can't instruct the still-active computer where to go). How the heck did the Empire manage to expand in the first place?  These seem like things they should've gotten down within the first couple of thousand years of existence.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Wrangler

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #34 on: 08 November 2021, 08:34:10 »
Still not able to watch. I'm curious if that freakish mass Amnesia thing still a thing.  Trying forget the past to get on with the future in some weird way makes sense.  Not being drawn to be stuck on Earth or cling to the past seems okay... xp

I really didn't understand that other than try to avoid the other issues that were happening on Earth like the "All humans are afraid to be on surface of planet" thing.

 
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #35 on: 09 November 2021, 22:25:54 »
Still not able to watch. I'm curious if that freakish mass Amnesia thing still a thing.  Trying forget the past to get on with the future in some weird way makes sense.  Not being drawn to be stuck on Earth or cling to the past seems okay... xp

I really didn't understand that other than try to avoid the other issues that were happening on Earth like the "All humans are afraid to be on surface of planet" thing.

They haven't touched on that at all in the show so far. No mention of humanity's lost original home.

The mass migration from Earth and the mass amnesia are two different things. One was because of the Earth's poisoned/radioactive state, engineered by the Spacers but which Giskard allowed to happen to force the Earthers to spread across the galaxy.  IIRC, his rationale was that Earth would always be a target for Spacer intrigues and kept drawing later settlers back to it because they saw it as a holy world, so it was better to force the issue, even though it basically cost Giskard his life.  The other was because Daneel spent thousands of years traveling the galaxy and erasing any reference to Earth he came across.

The Empire did know of Earth at one time though; Pebble In The Sky (Asimov's first Empire novel!) makes clear that a dying Earth was still a (very minor) part of the Empire, and the remaining inhabitants were not at all happy about their fate. And then we have the chapters in Prelude to Foundation where we find descendants of refugees from both Earth and the Spacer worlds who settled in different zones of Trantor's world-city (which is nothing if not the apotheosis of Earth's City culture from the Robot novels). And in Foundation and Earth, it was the Empire that organized the final evacuation of Earthers to Alpha Centauri, though they quickly lost interest in terraforming it.

How much of any of that the show's writers will make use of remains to be seen.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Wrangler

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #36 on: 10 November 2021, 08:11:59 »
I'd imagine they will at some point revisit / revision it. It's too much of a epic hidden plot driver to ignore.

I personally hope they are able add something new new to the setting, but again.  Nostalgia can be tempting as drugs, too good to people. 
I would love see the make their own branch to the big tree called the Foundation, as long as the writers aren't hamstringed by bad writing/producers or something.   
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #37 on: 10 November 2021, 23:40:50 »
I'd imagine they will at some point revisit / revision it. It's too much of a epic hidden plot driver to ignore.

I personally hope they are able add something new new to the setting, but again.  Nostalgia can be tempting as drugs, too good to people. 
I would love see the make their own branch to the big tree called the Foundation, as long as the writers aren't hamstringed by bad writing/producers or something.

If you read the Reddit thread that roosterboy mentioned, one thing they ARE hamstrung by is rights to various books. David S. Goyer claims that they have the rights to the Foundation books, but not to the Robot books. This is why they had to make TV-Eto a different character from Eto/Daneel in the books.  The only way I can make sense of that is that since Daneel is first introduced in the Robot novels, they can't use him despite his appearances in the later Foundation books...but Eto is somehow a separate character right up until the reveal. So there can be a character by that name who is a robot, and who predates the Empire, but it just can't also be Daneel. Similarly, they have "Spacers" in the TV series, but they are definitely not the Spacers of the Robot novels.

Come to think of it, that probably also means they can't use the backstory of the Earth/Spacer conflict since that's entirely contained in the Robot novels, hence why they had to come up with the more Dune-like Robot Wars.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #38 on: 16 November 2021, 14:57:14 »
I'd imagine they will at some point revisit / revision it. It's too much of a epic hidden plot driver to ignore.

It looks like they did make reference to that material, albeit somewhat tangentially.  In an episode 9 flashback scene, a young (tween?) Sal asks her father about where humans originally came from, and he mentions Earth by name.  So in the show, Earth hasn't been as completely forgotten as it was in the books.

Also, we learned in that episode that Sal is somehow able to access and experience Gaal's memories from across space and time. Already some speculation by YT commenters that Sal is in fact Gaal and Raych's biological daughter.

EDIT:  and another thing we picked up is that these Robot Wars seemingly happened during the reign of the Cleons. I had been under the impression they had taken place millennia earlier.

Gaal didn't appear in the episode, but her narration was downright cynical this time.

Overall, I do think the two episodes directed by Roxann Dawson were better than most of what preceded them.

cheers,

Gabe
« Last Edit: 16 November 2021, 22:21:52 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Kentares

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #39 on: 17 November 2021, 07:43:37 »
Also, we learned in that episode that Sal is somehow able to access and experience Gaal's memories from across space and time. Already some speculation by YT commenters that Sal is in fact Gaal and Raych's biological daughter.

That was always my interpretation. She was adopted by those she calls mom and dad IMO.
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #40 on: 19 November 2021, 23:04:11 »
That was always my interpretation. She was adopted by those she calls mom and dad IMO.

Confirmed in the season finale.

Also, that's an...interesting interpretation of the Laws of Robotics shown by TV-Eto.  Further confirms that they are not the same Laws as in the books. The Zeroth Law, in this case, seems to be ensuring the purity of the Cleons' genetic lineage, regardless of what the current reigning Emperor might think.

But what if there is actually no purity to ensure...?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

roosterboy

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #41 on: 20 November 2021, 04:39:22 »
Good lord. In a season of terrible acting and ridiculous plotting set amongst pretty cool visuals, the season finale was the worst offender. I think my eyes stayed rolled entirely back into my skull during the whole thing.

Where do I even begin?

AI-Hari getting everyone to drop centuries of enmity and more recent violations just because he says the history they've been taught all their lives is wrong. How would he even know? Why would they believe him?

So the Foundation is cool with being told the past 35 years of hardship and toil was in service of a complete lie? And they just turn around and accept AI-Hari's new directives without a complaint?

Why on earth were Hugo's eyes so distractingly, obnoxiously blue? I don't recall noticing that before (with him or any other Thespin character, in case they try to say it's a thing with them).

Does anyone really believe the relationship between Salvor and Hugo? Absolutely no chemistry at all.

I find it completely unbelievable that psychohistory can "make general predictions about the future behavior of very large groups of people" (to quote Wikipedia because I'm too lazy to go back and see exactly how it was described in the show) and, it is stressed over and over, not individuals, yet Hari Seldon can predict that one misjumping warship will be found by a small group of people who will also somehow involve his cultists (because, really, that's what they are) on Terminus.

If I were sticking around for S2, I'm glad we apparently wouldn't have to sit through probably 3/4 of a season of Salvor searching for Gaal. Although parts of that'll probably be shown in at least one flashback.

IIRC, last time we saw Salvor in the pilot seat of Hugo's ship, he had to coach her what to do but suddenly she's knowledgeable enough to take it out on a long journey all by herself?

Speaking of Salvor and Gaal, how hilariously inept of them to try to hide the identity of the person Gaal was rescuing.

Why did Gaal's pod have a window? Seems like a stupid design. And why is a pod like that, capable of interstellar, albeit sublight, travel and long-term (wasn't Gaal's trip something like 130 years?) life support of its occupant, wake up said occupant and rely on them strapping themselves down for reentry? Wouldn't it make sense for part of its standard procedure to be ensuring the safety of the occupant for the entire trip? Why does the person even need to be manually strapped down at all? I highly doubt they are freely floating in that goop and just sloshing all around as the pod makes it way through the galaxy. There must be some kind of, I dunno, inertial dampeners or force fields or something to hold them in place during the journey so they're not banging up against the inside of the pod. Why would that cut out just when it would be so very useful?

That #2 Anacreon guy (was his name ever mentioned? ah, who cares) suddenly being all "I want a good future for muh kid" rang false considering he was totally onboard for his boss' plan the whole time. I can't think of a single moment until the end of the previous episode where he expressed the slightest doubt or disloyalty to the plan. But suddenly, because the plot calls for it, he's all about peace with the ancient enemy of his planet and the people he had been ready to massacre half a season prior.

Pretty much everything about the Terminus/Anacreons/Thespins plot was godawful and a drag on the rest of the show. That's not to say the Empire side of the show didn't have its flaws too, but on the whole it was more enjoyable.

Dusk and Day getting into a slapflght in the throneroom? More of that kind of thing, please.

Bye bye whiny Dawn. Seriously, that guy was a total downer. I laughed out loud when Demerzel snapped his neck.

I refuse to believe that Dawn could have hidden his differences from his brothers. Once he was old enough to understand that he was different and what that would mean for him, maybe, but his colorblindness and lefthandedness would have been noticed far earlier than that and he would have been replaced.

And I do not at all buy Day's "you robbed me of my legacy" schtick. In the 8 episodes we had with this iteration of the Cleons, that was never once established in either dialogue or actions.

Although it did lead to his delicious psychological torture of Azura, so I'll let it slide.

Demerzel's agonizing wail while ripping off her human face? The most unintentionally hilarious thing in the entire season, I think. I hope it gets memed to hell and back.

(Not really a complaint, because it was a brilliant solution to balancing a long timespan within the story with maintaining cast continuity, but does anyone else think the writers came up with the whole Genetic Dynasty thing because they realized Cleon is an anagram of clone? Ha!)

I really shouldn't have expected much from a David Goyer show, so more fool me for even giving this a chance, I suppose. I wanted to give the show a chance because a) more science fiction on television is always a good thing, b) Jared Harris, and c) as hammy as he can sometimes be, Lee Pace earned a lot of good will from me with Halt and Catch Fire. Didn't work out this time, but oh well. I'll probably check out some reviews of S2 to see if it improves any but I'm not holding out much hope.

For those of you who liked it, I'm glad you found something to enjoy. I may not have, but that's okay.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2021, 05:46:21 by roosterboy »

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #42 on: 22 November 2021, 23:08:17 »
Good lord. In a season of terrible acting and ridiculous plotting set amongst pretty cool visuals, the season finale was the worst offender. I think my eyes stayed rolled entirely back into my skull during the whole thing.

Where do I even begin?

AI-Hari getting everyone to drop centuries of enmity and more recent violations just because he says the history they've been taught all their lives is wrong. How would he even know? Why would they believe him?


Yes, it is interesting how he was privy to that tidbit of information.  You would think that's something the Cleons would want hidden as deeply as possible, known only to themselves and their Shadowmasters. However, it does sort of jive with the backstory that was constructed for Seldon in the prequel novels, in that they established that he had been a player at the highest levels of Imperial politics, rather than just some eccentric academic who hit upon a game-changing theory.  However, the portrayal here goes beyond that, in presenting Seldon as a Dumbledore-level plotter and manipulator. (And everyone connected with him...is Harry.) We also see that with his inspirational speech to the grunt workers on the ship before Raych murdered him.  After all, a good cult leader has to be a good politician too, and get everyone top to bottom to buy in.

Getting back to the very first episode and the destruction of the Star Bridge, remember, the two people who set off the bomb were...an Anacreon and a Thespin.  Why would two blood enemies find common cause to pull off a spectacular terrorist attack at the very heart of the Empire, unless they knew something the rest of their peoples didn't?

So the Foundation is cool with being told the past 35 years of hardship and toil was in service of a complete lie? And they just turn around and accept AI-Hari's new directives without a complaint?

That's taken fairly directly from the the books.  Seldon did indeed emerge from the Vault (but as a pre-recorded image) and tell the Foundation what their true purpose was.  And Mari at least did complain...just not directly to AI-Hari.

Having two AI copies of Hari bouncing around also gives off some serious Desty Nova (from Battle Angel Alita) vibes.

Why on earth were Hugo's eyes so distractingly, obnoxiously blue? I don't recall noticing that before (with him or any other Thespin character, in case they try to say it's a thing with them).

Because Thespis is really Arrakis, and all the inhabitants are jacked up on Spice donchaknow  ;D

No, seriously, it is a thing with them. The Thespin ambassador and his entourage from the early episodes all had those unnatural, penetrating blue eyes. Hugo had some kind of subcutaneous implant that allowed him to mask his true eye colour; for some reason he wanted to hide the fact that he was a Thespin. By the end of series 1, he no longer felt that need.

Does anyone really believe the relationship between Salvor and Hugo? Absolutely no chemistry at all.

There is one way in which the series is shaping up to be like the early books, and that is that it's arc-driven rather than character-driven.
Obviously she can't get TOO into him, otherwise she wouldn't go haring off into space looking for Gaal.

I find it completely unbelievable that psychohistory can "make general predictions about the future behavior of very large groups of people" (to quote Wikipedia because I'm too lazy to go back and see exactly how it was described in the show) and, it is stressed over and over, not individuals, yet Hari Seldon can predict that one misjumping warship will be found by a small group of people who will also somehow involve his cultists (because, really, that's what they are) on Terminus.

No argument there.  However, AI-Hari did make it sound like he had been tracking the appearances of the Invictus for some time, found a pattern in them, and used it to test his predictive theories.  In the later books, Trantor itself served as the test case, as it was the most heavily populated planet in the galaxy, which makes a lot more sense.

I thought that with Terminus already cooperating with Anacreon and Thespis that we wouldn't get to see the Foundation go all ComStar, but DSG has already mentioned a "Church of the Galactic Spirit" for S2.  Assuming the story picks up where it left off after the near-140 year time jump, the Foundation could indeed evolve into a church-like cult without Sal around to keep them grounded, in stark contrast to the books where that step was pretty much a cynical ploy to expand their influence in the Outer Reach.  It would also make them a credible rival to the Luminists.

The biggest travesty IMO was ending S1 without having established the Second Foundation.  Recall that in the books, it was pretty much up and running even before the Terminus colonists left Trantor!  But we have two mentalists together with a Prime Radiant now, so it's pretty clear Sal and Gaal will start it.  The only question is where.

IIRC, last time we saw Salvor in the pilot seat of Hugo's ship, he had to coach her what to do but suddenly she's knowledgeable enough to take it out on a long journey all by herself?

Some time had elapsed since her first experience with the ship, and as she pointed out, after Hugo took over as captain of the Invictus, the Beggar wasn't his ship anymore.  Presumably she spent some of that time learning to pilot the ship without him.

Speaking of Salvor and Gaal, how hilariously inept of them to try to hide the identity of the person Gaal was rescuing.

Um, they're trying to show us what it's like from Gaal's perspective...?

Why did Gaal's pod have a window? Seems like a stupid design. And why is a pod like that, capable of interstellar, albeit sublight, travel and long-term (wasn't Gaal's trip something like 130 years?) life support of its occupant, wake up said occupant and rely on them strapping themselves down for reentry? Wouldn't it make sense for part of its standard procedure to be ensuring the safety of the occupant for the entire trip? Why does the person even need to be manually strapped down at all? I highly doubt they are freely floating in that goop and just sloshing all around as the pod makes it way through the galaxy. There must be some kind of, I dunno, inertial dampeners or force fields or something to hold them in place during the journey so they're not banging up against the inside of the pod. Why would that cut out just when it would be so very useful?

I hope we get back to live Comic-Com panels soon, because I would so love to see you at one taking the writers to task over details like this  ;D.  Sure, what you describe makes more sense, but it's *surprisingly* low on dramatic tension.

You know what really pissed me off?  THEY DIDN'T SHOW THE MEGA-FLARE!  WE WERE PROMISED A MEGA-FLARE DAMMIT!!!
(And no acknowledgment of it from the Imperial side, either!)

That #2 Anacreon guy (was his name ever mentioned? ah, who cares) suddenly being all "I want a good future for muh kid" rang false considering he was totally onboard for his boss' plan the whole time. I can't think of a single moment until the end of the previous episode where he expressed the slightest doubt or disloyalty to the plan. But suddenly, because the plot calls for it, he's all about peace with the ancient enemy of his planet and the people he had been ready to massacre half a season prior.

When you serve a leader who rules by fear, of course you're on board with the plan...until there's no reason for you to be.

Pretty much everything about the Terminus/Anacreons/Thespins plot was godawful and a drag on the rest of the show. That's not to say the Empire side of the show didn't have its flaws too, but on the whole it was more enjoyable.

Dusk and Day getting into a slapflght in the throneroom? More of that kind of thing, please.

Bye bye whiny Dawn. Seriously, that guy was a total downer. I laughed out loud when Demerzel snapped his neck.

I thought he was the only really sympathetic member of the whole Imperial household. Then again, I have personal experience being trapped in a gilded cage where you know you're different from all of the cage's other occupants.

I refuse to believe that Dawn could have hidden his differences from his brothers. Once he was old enough to understand that he was different and what that would mean for him, maybe, but his colorblindness and lefthandedness would have been noticed far earlier than that and he would have been replaced.

Again, not much argument here. He would have had to keep it hidden not just from the other Cleons, but from Demerzel as well.
And not all the differences were defects:  remember, he was a better shot than the others.

And I do not at all buy Day's "you robbed me of my legacy" schtick. In the 8 episodes we had with this iteration of the Cleons, that was never once established in either dialogue or actions.

Although it did lead to his delicious psychological torture of Azura, so I'll let it slide.

That was quite a shift in Day's perspective from the start of the episode to the end.  What he did with Azura was exactly what one would expect of a Cleon, an acknowledgment that Dawn would have to be liquidated not just for his "imperfections", but for becoming distracted from Imperial life. It was only after hearing what Dawn had to say, and reflecting on his experience on The Maiden, that he finally decided to spare Dawn.  Dusk's reaction suggests that he never left Trantor in his life and willingly denied himself the opportunity to experience different perspectives.

(And how do we know that Day would actually follow through on what he told Azura he would do to her family and friends?)

Demerzel's agonizing wail while ripping off her human face? The most unintentionally hilarious thing in the entire season, I think. I hope it gets memed to hell and back.


It's not clear why Demerzel did that, but there are two obvious explanations:
1) From a robot logic perspective, her killing of Dawn was formally equivalent to what Giskard did in Robots and Empire, letting the Spacer plot to kill Earth proceed knowing it would spur humanity to spread throughout the galaxy, even though it caused direct short-term harm to the Earthers. Her version of the Zeroth Law seems to be ensuring the integrity of the Cleonic Dynasty, and to fulfill that requirement she had to kill Dawn, but doing that was obviously allowing (causing!) lethal harm to a member of said dynasty, and she cracked under the contradiction. (This is, of course, assuming that she didn't do it to spite Day for ordering her to murder Halima.)

Another reason she may have done it was to avoid seeing Day and Dusk go all Cats of Kilkenny on each other. Removing the source of the animus restores the household's internal stability, but still causes the contradiction.

2) Not sure if she was made aware of the contamination of the Cleons' genetic line (including the mummified Cleon I), but if she was, then she cracked under the strain of knowing that not only did she fail in her primary task, she's been protecting a purity that no longer exists and hasn't for some time. Why does she need to keep serving them if that basic condition is no longer met?

(Not really a complaint, because it was a brilliant solution to balancing a long timespan within the story with maintaining cast continuity, but does anyone else think the writers came up with the whole Genetic Dynasty thing because they realized Cleon is an anagram of clone? Ha!)

I thought it was so obvious it wasn't worth mentioning.

I really shouldn't have expected much from a David Goyer show, so more fool me for even giving this a chance, I suppose. I wanted to give the show a chance because a) more science fiction on television is always a good thing, b) Jared Harris, and c) as hammy as he can sometimes be, Lee Pace earned a lot of good will from me with Halt and Catch Fire. Didn't work out this time, but oh well. I'll probably check out some reviews of S2 to see if it improves any but I'm not holding out much hope.

For those of you who liked it, I'm glad you found something to enjoy. I may not have, but that's okay.

Oh come on!  That hamminess is what suits Lee Pace so well to those high-and-mighty fantasy roles he goes for! Thranduil, Ronan, Galactic Emperor...an actor needs to be a bit OTT...

If you only want to keep up through reviews, may I suggest you check out Pete Peppers on Youtube.  He covers most of the major plot points and has some interesting analysis.  The geek-pop culture sites that I follow at least (IO9 and Den of Geek) don't consider this series worth their time and effort.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Triptych

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #43 on: 23 November 2021, 04:44:34 »
Ive watched about 6 episodes so far and its okay. I havent yet read the book, so I dont know what was left out or anything like that.

My one peeve is that the protagonists are so docile and helpless, its like they lose their brains and become plot devices instead of thinking for themselves.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #44 on: 23 November 2021, 10:47:01 »
Ive watched about 6 episodes so far and its okay. I havent yet read the book, so I dont know what was left out or anything like that.

My one peeve is that the protagonists are so docile and helpless, its like they lose their brains and become plot devices instead of thinking for themselves.
nothing like the book  they made it into an adventure drama
as i see it its a show that took foundation as a title and thats it.....
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #45 on: 24 November 2021, 14:57:39 »
You know, it's weird. I've been watching Foundation since it started and now have the first three episodes of Wheel of Time under my belt as well. And my reaction to deviations in each show are diametrically opposite to each other.

With Foundation, I was aware going in of some of the cast changes made and of the existence of the genetic dynasty. Neither bothered me too much - I was, actually more worried about the Cleons because that was going to be 100% new content that I felt might not mesh well with established stories in "The Encyclopedists" and "The Mayors".

How wrong I was. The Trantor arcs ended up being the best part of the show, while what should have been the part of the show I enjoyed the most became a burden to get through. By the midpoint of the series I had given up on it getting better and I finished the series more out of spite than anything approaching enjoyment.

Contrast with Wheel of Time. Right out the gate it makes some major lore and worldbuilding decisions that run counter to the book, and yet I find myself unbothered. Partly because in the long run I do not think they will alter the story's trajectory that much, but also because if ever there was a story that could get away with multiple versions of itself, the Wheel of Time is that story. As Brandon Sanderson put it, don't think of this as a messed up telling of the book series, think of it as another Age of the wheel where the universe has shook out a little bit different. I can get behind that, I think, because ultimately the show is staying true to the spirit of the novels, if deviating in places from the established facts.

And that's where Goyer has lost me with Foundation, because I do not believe that he cares about the spirit of Asimov's story. I say this partly because the show feels like it was a generic sci-fi story that had Foundation's character and place names grafted into place to get funding. There's some good stuff in the Trantor arc, and I'd be perfectly happy watching a show that was just about Lee Pace going around yelling at people, but I would want it marketed under its own original name. (Game of Clones, anyone?)
 
The other reason I feel Foundation doesn't respect the spirit of Asimov's works is because Goyer's successes to date seem to have actually come from a profound inability to understand the subject material he adapts. And when your success depends upon not understanding a thing there's very little reason to bother trying.

Dune was good, though, so 2 out of 3 isn't so bad.


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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #46 on: 24 November 2021, 18:25:13 »
With Foundation, I was aware going in of some of the cast changes made and of the existence of the genetic dynasty. Neither bothered me too much - I was, actually more worried about the Cleons because that was going to be 100% new content that I felt might not mesh well with established stories in "The Encyclopedists" and "The Mayors".

How wrong I was. The Trantor arcs ended up being the best part of the show, while what should have been the part of the show I enjoyed the most became a burden to get through. By the midpoint of the series I had given up on it getting better and I finished the series more out of spite than anything approaching enjoyment.


Indeed.  DSG seems like he's more interested in telling a story about the Empire's decline, rather than about the Foundation's rise.  That's going to be hard to square with how the Foundation fills the power void as the Empire loses power and influence.

I will stick with S2, more out of morbid curiosity than anything.  I want to see how they pull off this "Church of the Galactic Spirit"--whether they actually go into some detail about how the Foundation evolved into that, or just present it as a fait accompli.
If they do that, then I totally want it to be like (since this IS still a Battletech forum!) post-Raymond Karpov ComStar, a techno-religious cult with Seldon as the sainted Jerome Blake figure.

cheers,

Gabe

So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #47 on: 24 November 2021, 19:03:41 »
This show is bad and I enjoy it immensely. That said, I think I want the show to just be about the Cleons? The triune clone-emperor concept is so great I can't believe I haven't come across it in sci-fi before.


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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #48 on: 24 November 2021, 19:33:31 »
Looking back, it's amazing how much screen time it took for the proto-Foundation to accomplish so little. By the end I was turning it on only to see what happens to the Imperial trio on Trantor.

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #49 on: 08 December 2021, 21:37:43 »
So I'm actually re-reading the first of the Foundation books (first time in almost 30 years!), to see how much actually made it into the show and how mangled it was.  Overall, the way most of it is written would be more amenable to a stage play than to the screen (either TV or cinema), as much of the story takes place in enclosed areas like rooms, with relatively few characters interacting. Each major part also has fairly big jumps in time; hence all the complaints about much of the show being filler.

--Believe it or not, the first couple of episodes of the show are not TOO far off the major beats of the first part--which was actually written about 10 years AFTER the subsequent parts, which all date to the early 1940s!.  Gaal Dornick of Synnax arrives on Trantor looking to work with Seldon, and immediately runs afoul of the Imperial secret police since Seldon is already considered a dangerous subversive. There is a trial and the Foundation is exiled to Terminus. Obviously, a LOT of the particulars differ:
--Gaal is male, and Synnax is not the regressive backwater portrayed in the show; it still has universities and Gaal already holds a PhD in math.
--Ships land directly on Trantor; there is no space elevator.
--the Emperor is not any Cleon (who was only introduced in the prequel novels), but a pliant figurehead who is obviously not a series of clones. Real power lies with Linge Chen, head of the "Commission of Public Safety" (modeled on Stilicho?)--basically, the Empire is run by its security services, headed by a cabal of aristocratic families. This role is filled in the show by Cleon XII (Brother Day when the series begins).
--the size of Seldon's organization is considerably larger (about 100,000 people in all) than what was apparently sent to Terminus in the show. By the time Part 2 begins, 50 years later, they have progressed well beyond the sparsely populated frontier town from the show, and without any help from Anacreon or Thespis (called Smyrno in the book).
--Seldon himself is much older than portrayed in the show, and already in failing health. He does not accompany the Foundation to Terminus. Neither does Gaal for that matter, who simply disappears from the narrative and is only referred to as Seldon's biographer.
DSG obviously had bigger things in mind for his version of the character; seems that TV-Gaal  is not only the chronicler of the whole story, but also seems likely to be the founder of the Second Foundation (which is WAY behind schedule).
--There is no anti-Imperial conspiracy, or any of the other Trantor arc stuff from the show.

--People have also remarked on how little the Foundation accomplished until the first revelation of Seldon. This is also fairly true in the book, when the ruling council was made up of scientists focused on the encyclopedia. Things only really pick up when (the older, male) Salvor Hardin effectively seizes power in a coup.
--As in the show, the scientists have a rather muted response to Seldon's revelation about the Foundation's true purpose.
--It's interesting how Anacreon is still able to field an interstellar fleet when their own world has lost the ability to generate nuclear power.  The decline of Anacreon (and other peripheral worlds) seems to have come about largely by just being abandoned by the Empire, rather than through active Imperial aggression.  Somewhat similar to how the Star League kept the Periphery dependent on tech and supplies originating from the centre of the League after the Reunification War, and the technological decline that ensued after the Star League collapsed.
--the spiel given the young Sal by her (foster) father Abbas about the planetary origins of humanity surprisingly shows up, but it is discussed by Dorwin, who in the book is just an Imperial envoy and not a military commander.
(Incidentally, did Asimov provide the inspiration for the Pilate/Biggus Dickus segment of Monty Python's Life of Brian?
This Dorwin is a fop with an Elmer Fudd-like speech impediment/affectation)
--as mentioned in a previous post, the lost Imperial warship shows up as a plot point, but much later, when Hardin has already been mayor for 30+ years and the Foundation has established its ComStar-like religion.

Quote
Quote from: roosterboy on 20 November 2021, 04:39:22

    I find it completely unbelievable that psychohistory can "make general predictions about the future behavior of very large groups of people" (to quote Wikipedia because I'm too lazy to go back and see exactly how it was described in the show) and, it is stressed over and over, not individuals, yet Hari Seldon can predict that one misjumping warship will be found by a small group of people who will also somehow involve his cultists (because, really, that's what they are) on Terminus.

Turns out Asimov himself wasn't completely clear on this point (perhaps not truly understanding his own fictional construct), but apparently, it can. In Part I, Seldon mentions how he used the theory to predict Linge Chen's reactions to his predictions. That's pretty much equivalent to predicting the behaviour of a single gas molecule out of the billions in a even a small container.  Somewhat more realistically, he also mentions that there will be a revolt on Anacreon, and that the Foundation itself will instigate it.

I suppose I could go on, but the rest of the book, detailing the Foundation's transition to a mercantile plutocracy, is something that MAYBE will be explored in seasons 2 and 3.  There's no telling with this "adaptation".
(and yet, watching the show has affected how I visualize certain parts of the book...when I think of Salvor Hardin, I see and hear Clarke Peters now...)

cheers,

Gabe

So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Triptych

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #50 on: 08 December 2021, 23:32:36 »
I finally finished the first season, and like the others, I wasnt particularly enamored of the Terminus storyline, but I did find the Cleon Emperor stuff to be intriguing enough to watch all the way to the end. Lee Pace is a good actor, and his delivery made it worthwhile.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #51 on: 11 October 2023, 11:38:59 »
Well, season 2 came and went…no reactions?

At this point I think it’s pretty safe to say that David S. Goyer has pretty much thrown out any pretense of adhering to Asimov’s original stories and is just interested in telling his own story, with the names of characters from the originals just pasted on where needed.  The Second Foundation in particular is given an utterly different origin from the book version.

It’s pretty clear Goyer wants this to be, at its core, Seldon vs. the Cleons (or now Seldon vs. Demerzel, who after this season I am satisfied is NOT Daneel).  Trying to do it like the original stories would make it too much like an anthology series, with completely new casts for each season.  I try to enjoy it for what it is, but it’s just so far off the original material that it really interferes with even minimal appreciation.

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #52 on: 11 October 2023, 13:39:53 »
visuals are the only redeaming thing about that show
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #53 on: 13 October 2023, 17:06:42 »
I've got a few of the Foundation-series books; tried to read them, but they were boring.  Maybe the show will rekindle my interests.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #54 on: 13 October 2023, 18:37:46 »
I've got a few of the Foundation-series books; tried to read them, but they were boring.  Maybe the show will rekindle my interests.
no it wont
show is taken so far off yhe source material it only shares the name

btw books are a bit like delayed time bomb when they hit you few days after you read them
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #55 on: 14 October 2023, 08:24:54 »
I've got a few of the Foundation-series books; tried to read them, but they were boring.  Maybe the show will rekindle my interests.

There’s little action in the novels, and yet, they have been some of my favorites for decades. I tend to reread them every few years.

Ruger
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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #56 on: 14 October 2023, 11:23:23 »
There’s little action in the novels, and yet, they have been some of my favorites for decades. I tend to reread them every few years.

Ruger
you too?
second foundation and coming of the mule are my faves from series...golan travize not so much but pelorat...i dont know he is more likeable character and wish he had more to do in last 2 books
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #57 on: 14 October 2023, 17:53:34 »
you too?
second foundation and coming of the mule are my faves from series...golan travize not so much but pelorat...i dont know he is more likeable character and wish he had more to do in last 2 books

The Bel Riose and Mule arcs are probably my favorites, but I also love Foundation and Earth for its showcasing what ended up happening to several of the Spacer worlds.

Ruger
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elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #58 on: 14 October 2023, 18:13:24 »
solaria scared me or idea of it but naked sun showed the beginings of what solaria would had become...
second earth in alpha centauri showed gene engineering going out of hand and onsulation from every one
oth daneel...taking the order to protect the whole before dying by bailey was something and how the unstated order was carried out as gaia his logic and how eventually travise gave ok to daneel to proceede toward galaxia. but i think pelorat was the one to push the decision that travise had made

heck i like the robot series especially with susan kalvin my fave short story was liar
and when discovery of hyperspace travel happen it had me laughing which is rare
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #59 on: 16 October 2023, 21:38:15 »
There’s little action in the novels, and yet, they have been some of my favorites for decades. I tend to reread them every few years.

Ruger

I'm rereading them now, mostly just to see which elements they cherry-picked for the show.

Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #60 on: 16 October 2023, 22:38:31 »
Probably for the best, kinda like Lord of the Rings, if they copied it directly from the book it would be 72 hours long. 71.5 of those hours would be split between walking, HUGE amounts of dialogue, singing, and more walking.

THe action scene in Moria would be

"They have a cave troll!"
"A sting indeed!"
*FLUBBER MOTHERING BALROG*
"Fly you fools!"
"GANDAAAAAAAAAAAALF."

*END*

And now for 45 minutes more of walking and talking as the above sequence took all of 3 minutes.

So if an adaptation is needed to make The Foundation work, thats fine :)

LMFAO.

Thank you sir for explaining so precisely why I was never able to read or even do book on tape, either the LotR Trilogy or Hobbit Prequel, and yet, loved the 70's animation TV movies & the big screen Movies of Peter Jackson.
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #61 on: 16 October 2023, 22:51:59 »
LMFAO.

Thank you sir for explaining so precisely why I was never able to read or even do book on tape, either the LotR Trilogy or Hobbit Prequel, and yet, loved the 70's animation TV movies & the big screen Movies of Peter Jackson.

But there's a difference between an adaptation that's still clearly recognizable as the original story (perhaps with added elements, like the _His Dark Materials_ series), and a 95% unrelated story that mostly just uses the names of characters and places from the original work and has the gall to call itself an "adaptation".  That's what the Foundation TV series is.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Wrangler

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #62 on: 17 October 2023, 08:29:50 »
I find certain science fictions are too deep and slow pace for something adapted to visual media. 

Something is lost with the written word.  Foundation is hard science fiction.  Tension and suspense is sometimes lost and may not be as deep when you're just watching it.

I think there some disconnect with producers who aren't really science fiction fans, just cog in the machine sort work people.  If you're not into it, your may not make it good.  My impression they want jazz it up, blow up stuff, etc.    Science fiction isn't quite like that, especially established stuff such as the Foundation series.

I have old and very thick novels for Mystera series, which I love.  It's more world building than actual explosions and action.  Yet, I don't think it would translate to a long limited series or movie.   Not everything is transferable I think.   I was very surprised Foundation got that treatment.   I think they could done it if had been structured differently or gone with small snap shot of it.   Perhaps a original story within the UNIVERSE of Foundation, rather focus on the megastory itself.
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gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #63 on: 18 October 2023, 22:00:40 »
They haven't touched on that at all in the show so far. No mention of humanity's lost original home.

The Empire did know of Earth at one time though; Pebble In The Sky (Asimov's first Empire novel!) makes clear that a dying Earth was still a (very minor) part of the Empire, and the remaining inhabitants were not at all happy about their fate. And then we have the chapters in Prelude to Foundation where we find descendants of refugees from both Earth and the Spacer worlds who settled in different zones of Trantor's world-city (which is nothing if not the apotheosis of Earth's City culture from the Robot novels). And in Foundation and Earth, it was the Empire that organized the final evacuation of Earthers to Alpha Centauri, though they quickly lost interest in terraforming it.

How much of any of that the show's writers will make use of remains to be seen.


Turns out the Empire DOES know about Earth, at least Cleon I and the people he sent to find it did.  He wanted to get something from Earth to impress Demerzel, who in the show seems to have been constructed there and is a mind-boggling 18,000 years old. 

I think the show is also trying to hint at the dangers of flesh-and-blood people having AI lovers, as it is heavily implied that Cleon I's rather odd relationship with Demerzel was a key reason why he never married and produced an heir the conventional way.

It was also revealed that Demerzel did indeed have her/their/its (I'll just use "her" since that's what the current appearance is) programming modified by Cleon I, who inserted a chip in her that introduced a modified form of the Three Laws essentially replacing all instances of "human" and "humanity" with "Empire".  How he managed to have such a thing engineered when Demerzel is supposedly the last of her kind--with seemingly no other example to study from--remains to be seen.  Whatever the case, Demerzel's first duty is now to the Empire and its rulers--or, more accurately, while the Cleons in principle RULE the Empire, it's Demerzel who actually RUNS it.
Anyway, this is just further confirmation that Demerzel can't be Daneel, who would never have let such a thing happen to him.  :grin:

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #64 on: 19 October 2023, 08:15:30 »
in show it was implied that the robot never had 3 laws chip that was put the the robot had laws to be only loyal to cleon and empire to keep the genetic dynasty intact

in books daneel incorporated zeroth law...but at risk of having a mental lock so do all the other robots that remain operational
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #65 on: 19 October 2023, 12:07:46 »
in show it was implied that the robot never had 3 laws chip that was put the the robot had laws to be only loyal to cleon and empire to keep the genetic dynasty intact

in books daneel incorporated zeroth law...but at risk of having a mental lock so do all the other robots that remain operational

It seems to me that the whole backstory of rebel robots who weren't bound by the Three Laws and the Robot Wars is taken more from what I call the "B" trilogy that was not written by Asimov (although approved by his estate) and published after his death.  However, those stories are set in the timeframe of Asimov's prequel novels, whereas in the show this conflict is described as having taken place thousands of years before.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #66 on: 19 October 2023, 12:22:10 »
caliban its the book you are thinking of and world of inferno was the world where earthers and spacers tried to make a go at it...2 robots actually were made with no laws second generation had laws modified
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #67 on: 19 October 2023, 14:21:12 »
caliban its the book you are thinking of and world of inferno was the world where earthers and spacers tried to make a go at it...2 robots actually were made with no laws second generation had laws modified

I see, but those books are also not by Asimov himself.  It seems there is a lot of material from the extended universe that they've drawn on for the show, and precious little from the main Foundation books themselves.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #68 on: 19 October 2023, 14:34:30 »
caliban was given ok by asimov when he was still alive the other two were not and suffered for it
the prequel foundation trilogy was written by 3 different authors and a lot of stuff that had been in those made into the foundation tv show

there was a book forgot the title i read about 25 years back about a second foundationeer that got mind wiped and had his neural augmentation removed...and he re discovered the math that made the foundation it was set supposedly about 1200 years after terminus was settled ....was ok but never felt as it was in foundation universe
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

Prospernia

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #69 on: 26 October 2023, 17:36:27 »
It seems to me that the whole backstory of rebel robots who weren't bound by the Three Laws and the Robot Wars is taken more from what I call the "B" trilogy that was not written by Asimov (although approved by his estate) and published after his death.  However, those stories are set in the timeframe of Asimov's prequel novels, whereas in the show this conflict is described as having taken place thousands of years before.

cheers,

Gabe

Rebels robots are totally-possible; perhaps there was someone on the corporate-design team whose goals weren't in line with the goals of the company.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #70 on: 26 October 2023, 20:56:37 »
Rebels robots are totally-possible; perhaps there was someone on the corporate-design team whose goals weren't in line with the goals of the company.
not in asimovs universe...3 laws are so ingrained that scientists are afraid to do any research into different type of brains. positronic brains just work and can be improved...the scientist even belived that no other brain is possible. also humanity has the frankenstein complex that pretty much stops any other brain to be thought of

read up on susan calvin who in later books like caves of steel series is considered to be the mother of robotics

still my fave story is liar liar and a story about robot that can dream but best by far is a story about a robot brain that is tasked to break equation that makes travel faster than light possible,,,those poor engeneers LOL
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

gyedid

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #71 on: 27 October 2023, 09:39:33 »
not in asimovs universe...3 laws are so ingrained that scientists are afraid to do any research into different type of brains. positronic brains just work and can be improved...the scientist even belived that no other brain is possible. also humanity has the frankenstein complex that pretty much stops any other brain to be thought of


I think that it's more that in Asimov's conception, the Laws are so critical to human/robot interactions that they are physically hard-wired into the robot brain's design as a fail-safe.  The only way to change them would be to go in and remake the responsible circuitry or build it a different way from the ground up, which is presumably what the Solarians did to alter the definition of "human being" so that their robots would recognize only people who spoke with their world's distinctive accent as human.  Asimov, however, did not contend with the possibility that other authors playing in his sandbox would have different conceptions of how to build a robot brain and encode the Laws, such as putting them on memory modules that could be more easily altered or erased by external influences.

With respect to the show, David S. Goyer seems to have a rather different interpretation of the Zeroth Law:

"A robot may injure a human being or allow a human to come to harm if doing so would benefit humanity as a whole."

This is a capital-U Utilitarian reading of the Zeroth Law which would allow, for example, a robot to take action against a genocidal human tyrant. DSG, however, seems to use it as a scriptwriting device to allow Demerzel, with her altered programming, to engage in actions that contradict the (normal) First, Second, and Third Laws as long as they benefit the Empire.

cheers,

Gabe
« Last Edit: 27 October 2023, 14:02:01 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

elf25s

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Re: To Foundation and Be..... err.. Foundation TV show
« Reply #72 on: 27 October 2023, 13:20:35 »
you just quoted zeroth law from robots and empire when r. giscard proposed this concept to r.daneel the issue was how to reconcile that with frame work of 3 laws that had to be modified. older models like r.giscard could not accomidate the change so when exposed they failed and shut down. r.daneel was a humaniform robot that had its brain modeled on human brain ( look up caves of steel bailey and fastlofe conversation about robots )that at its core had 3 laws hardwired like all positronic brains. fastlofe design apparently was resiliant and was adopted through spacer worlds that is why surviving robots and some that had been constructed later were able to adopt to zeroth law all the way to the time of foundation and earth thats over 20k according to r. daneel and in his conversation with travise and pelorat he was not only one...
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!