Dungeons and Dragons discussion

[truetanker]

So as I started a brief discussion on the 40k vs. BT photo thread...

Looking for any help on designing WarForge for 1st. Ed.

They officially came out in 3rd.

Running a 1st Ed character with 2nds money/items and 3rds monsters.

Example: Skeleton vs. Blade weapon 1/2 damage, while a Blunt does full. Magic and Element damages standard. Immune to Poison, but not Acid. Vinegar does 1/4 damage per Vile, Half in a Flask.

Looking at a strong but resilient core, mid-average rest, but built as a construct.

Any plausible ideas?

TT

[Daryk]

D&D or AD&D? ???

[truetanker]

OG 1st edition.

Usually 6 sets of 3d6

Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma

But I'm looking for WarForge stats that didn't happen until 3rd edition, which changed everything.

I hate D20 style... 

TT

[Daryk]

"Basic" is the OG 2nd edition, but it sounds like you're talking about OG 1st Edition AD&D... ;)

[truetanker]

I have every module since 1974.

Mostly using my B1 as that's what I grew up with. B2 was the updated one, sometimes I squeeze that out, but Basic set is what I use.

TT

[mikecj]

I play D&D Basic/Expert edition with my 12 year-olds.  They're reading my old AD&D books and starting to get interested in moving up.

[DOC_Agren]

I'm not sure that it would not be that do hard to back design it by the rules, into existance.

hard might to explain how it came to be.

[truetanker]

I'd like to see if we can include every edition of the game.

Homebrews are great but I'd rather support official play.

But, does your characters read, write and swim?

Do you allow horse / beastial riding, ranged / melee weapon ( basic swing verse learned)

Does your campaign have multi sprawling maos or hexagon? Do you use official 6 / 24 mile measurements or other?

Do you prefer a mix, Square, Round or Bailey style Castles.

Does your characters shop in stores everywhere or just a few stalls in Town / Village?

How about your Cities and Forts?

Holidays?

These are always interesting to see.

Dungeon Master Pi

[truetanker]

I'm not sure that it would not be that do hard to back design it by the rules, into existance.

hard might to explain how it came to be.

True, but in-game could be an army of Intelligent golems that overthrown their evil creator. Learning as the went on... Seeking purpose but only know war.

Immortal Rule set...

TT

[DOC_Agren]

True, but in-game could be an army of Intelligent golems that overthrown their evil creator. Learning as the went on... Seeking purpose but only know war.

Immortal Rule set...

TT

Interesting and means the warforge isn't alone..  but was part of an army..
so a battledroid now trying to do other roles.. R0-GR

[truetanker]

That just means they could be Azer Dwarf built for combat on the material plane to places.

Some Demon Lord under a Wish Spell conjured by a Magic User or Litch wanting a score of undead but sentinel golems that will obey his ever word.

Anything like that...

TT

[truetanker]

So...

If I build it as a fighter, what stats: WarForged Warrior

If built as a Cleric, same question: WarForged Healer that picked up healing abilities from scrollsbthst they memorized, unlimited but limited to low level.

Assuming a standardized body build, say:

Strength 16+
Dexterity 14?
Constitution flat 16, I want to be able to take a hit
Intelligence 9 is standard, maybe s 13?
Wisdom 14 Warrior, 16 for Healer
Charisma flat 7

Any suggestions?

Or comments on future games?

Your expectations or experiences?

TT

[elf25s]

i recall seeing a documentary on d&d in you tube few years back and first edition was nothing like what it came after revision to be known as second edition.
as for myself my introduction to d&d was in 1984 in my school bus with small mini books....funny enough with had some proto karen show up in our school few months later do a schools assembly telling us how such games are bad for us without coming out right screaming that its satanic.
o think last time i touched the game when 4th edition came out and played it once and not since but still i keep up with the lore and beastiarity on and off mostly due to artwork

[truetanker]

Yeah, after the disappearance of James Dallas Egbert III (1979), he committed apparent suicide ( final death ) in 1980.

It was all over the news, satanic cults, reality displacement dysfunction, physical and mental stress.. all to give any RPG really a bad name.

Funny, today it's worth a Trillion or more a year.

Nerdom at its finest.

Wholesome religious factions tried to stop it, but still... Gencon and others are around, bigger even.

TT

[paladin2019]

OG 1st edition.

Again, does this mean 1e or some flavor of 0e. Rules paradigms are being heavily mixed and matter for integration.

If post-White Box 0e, what do you want warforged to do. Are they fighters like dwarves and halflings, fighter/magic-users like elves, or something else?

If White Box 0e or 1e, the answer changes.

[truetanker]

I am using the B series modules.

From B1 In Search of the Unknown thru B12 Queen's Harvest, the 80's reprints. Not going to ruin the OGs. I'll also be modifying the Queen of the Spiders Omnibus track. G1-3, D1-3 and Q1.

I have copies of the 80's.

I haven't decided on using the BSolo yet... As is, solo play.

That version of Basic, classic 3d6 rolls, not Advanced or 3+ versions, nor Pathfinder / Hackmaster variants.

Though I do have those as well.

TT

[paladin2019]

What rules set are you using for character creation?

[Daryk]

Sounds like Red Box Basic to me... 3d6 in order if he's a REAL iron man... ;D

[truetanker]

Sounds like Red Box Basic to me... 3d6 in order if he's a REAL warmachine.. ;D

Yes, that box. There's like three reprint sets of them.

A true collector collects everything, even multiple reprints.

But yes, my copies of original in close to mint are sealed and stored, my playables are not, vanilla-ing slowly. The ones I play a lot are photocopied on purpose to insure play time.

Current set is the three binder hole set.

That might help, like I said multiple reprints.

TT

[paladin2019]

Current set is the three binder hole set.

So, you are using Moldvay's B/X, with race as class rules. Here is my take on Warforged under this paradigm.

WARFORGED

Warforged are (you know what they are.) Warforged are constructed beings, making them especially resistant to poisons and other threats. The prime requisites for a warforged are Strength and Constitution. If a warforged has a score of 13 or greater in both Strength and Constitution, the character will gain a 5% bonus on earned experience points. If the warforged’s Strength is 13 or greater and his or her Constitution is 16 or greater, that character will earn a 10% bonus on earned experience.

RESTRICTIONS: Warforged use eight-sided dice (d8) to determine their hit points. They may advance to a maximum of 12th level of experience. Wargforged may not use any type of armor but may use
shields. Their armor class assumes a natural AC of 5, to which Dexterity and shield bonuses apply. They may use any type of weapon. A warforged character must have a minimum Strength score of 9.

SPECIAL ABILITIES: Lacking the normal organs of living creatures, warforged have better saving throws than most other character classes (they save as dwarves of the same level.) Waforged do not sleep and cannot be put to sleep via spells, nor do they need to eat, drink, or breath. Warforged speak Common, the language of their creators (if any), and the alignment tongue of the character, plus any granted by Intelligence.

Level	Title	Exp. Points	Hit Dice	Spells
1	Warforged Veteran	0	1d8	None
2	Warforged Warrior	2,200	2d8	None
3	Warforged Swordmaster	4,400	3d8	None
4	Warforged Hero	8,800	4d8	None
5	Warforged Swashbuckler	17,000	5d8	None
6	Warforged Myrmidon	35,000	6d8	None
7	Warforged Champion	70,000	7d8	None
8	Warforged Superhero	140,000	8d8	None
9	Warforged Lord (Lady)	270,000	9d8	None
10	10th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	400,000	9d8+3	None
11	11th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	530,000	9d8+6	None
12	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	660,000	9d8+9	None

[paladin2019]

If you want a warforged capable of using clerical spells, the Gazetteers relating to the dwarf, elf, and halfling homelands have rules for doing so once the character has reached their maximum level.

[truetanker]

Should they have a Clan or Guild? Like once they achieve a named status?

And what about a horror factor that most species have? Like negative -X- per level? Say -1 per third level of there of, starts at -1. (-2/3, -3/6,:-4/9 and so on...)

Also what level spell maximums? Clerical or Magical? Both? Can they use wands and scrolls like normals?

Do you think a small Strength racial bonusvapplied?

TT

[Prospernia]

I play D&D Basic/Expert edition with my 12 year-olds.  They're reading my old AD&D books and starting to get interested in moving up.

I played that as a Freshmen in high-school; I liked the Companion and Master's box-set the most; sure, dungeon-crawling is fun, but, running a kingdom was far more interesting. 

[paladin2019]

Should they have a Clan or Guild? Like once they achieve a named status?

Do they in your source material? In your setting's implementation?

And what about a horror factor that most species have? Like negative -X- per level? Say -1 per third level of there of, starts at -1. (-2/3, -3/6,:-4/9 and so on...)

What are you talking about? When did we shift to discussions of Rifts?

Also what level spell maximums? Clerical or Magical? Both? Can they use wands and scrolls like normals?

They don't cast spells in this paradigm, unless you want to build post-maximum level advancement, as is presented in Dwarves of Rockhome, et al. Or you want to use a different game version's character creation system. Or build your own. EDIT: To clarify: because I did not build the base class as a spellcaster, they use scrolls, wands, and staves "as normal"; ie, they mostly can't. They are not spellcasters and cannot use spell scrolls, wands, or staves.

Do you think a small Strength racial bonusvapplied [sic]?

No. Ability modifiers are not part of the B/X, or any 0e, character generation paradigm.

[mikecj]

I played that as a Freshmen in high-school; I liked the Companion and Master's box-set the most; sure, dungeon-crawling is fun, but, running a kingdom was far more interesting.

Thats what they're aiming for too...  they keep building castles in Minecraft as they argue about the final design.

[truetanker]

Do they in your source material?

Not really, just mentions they will follow any Master, think I will, Small Guilds of three or more, as they're quite rare constructs.

What are you talking about?

More like Reactions and Bonuses to Morale rolls. Under Charisma.

Also what level spell maximums?

Well technically 7th level was the highest in 1st. ed.

Like @Lord/Lady 9th level, they unlock the Clerical spells starting at 3rd level Cleric, each level advances the range by 2? Meaning 5, 7 and 9th by 12th Level...

Something to give them an extra wow factor, but way later... Most don't really have this feature, only PCs and select few NPCs.

TT

[paladin2019]

More like Reactions and Bonuses to Morale rolls. Under Charisma.

They have Charisma, there's no reason those mods wouldn't apply.

Like @Lord/Lady 9th level, they unlock the Clerical spells starting at 3rd level Cleric, each level advances the range by 2? Meaning 5, 7 and 9th by 12th Level...

Something to give them an extra wow factor, but way later... Most don't really have this feature, only PCs and select few NPCs.

If you want that, you can drop it in, it's your game. It will make the class more powerful than the XP numbers dictate, especially since it uses the dwarf saving throw table.

[truetanker]

I'll fiddle around some numbers.

I was asking about Modifying their Reactions to death / Monsters, their harden battle warriors. Seasonly trained since coming off the Forgelines. Not fleshies.

Like walk into a burning building, their components might smoulder, but they don't exhibit pain. They would react to Flame based attacks, magic and strong acids, but a cooking fire?

Also they don't swim or fly comfortably...

TT

[truetanker]

Let's see... *** for insights ***

WARFORGED

Warforged are (you know what they are.) Warforged are constructed beings, making them especially resistant to poisons and other threats. The prime requisites for a warforged are Strength and Constitution. If a warforged has a score of 13 or greater in both Strength and Constitution, the character will gain a 5% bonus on earned experience points. If the warforged’s Strength is 13 or greater and his or her Constitution is 16 or greater, that character will earn a 10% bonus on earned experience.
*** Nice as is ***

RESTRICTIONS: Warforged use eight-sided dice (d8) to determine their hit points. They may advance to a maximum of 12th level of experience. Wargforged may not use any type of armor but may use
shields. Their armor class assumes a natural AC of 5, to which Dexterity and shield bonuses apply. They may use any type of weapon. A warforged character must have a minimum Strength score of 9.

*** There's a Magical Armor suggedtion called Cure Wounds, that can be used. Says recovers 1/2 damage incurred, also as a Magical Construct, the WarForged could have their built-in AC5 as this? ***

SPECIAL ABILITIES: Lacking the normal organs of living creatures, warforged have better saving throws than most other character classes (they save as dwarves of the same level.) Waforged do not sleep and cannot be put to sleep via spells, nor do they need to eat, drink, or breath. Warforged speak Common, the language of their creators (if any), and the alignment tongue of the character, plus any granted by Intelligence.

***:Would they have Infravision or darkvision? Because the OG said heat, but that's been changed in  3rd. I'm ok with Infravision, but the ability to be blinded by any heat source, other than objects with light and heat is confusing. I think the reason for darkvision was so black and white, meaning I've come across some unusual situations where the DM said Darkvision was always on, even during the daytime. It was any Darkvision user see's no color debate.***

Level	Title	Exp. Points	Hit Dice	Spells
1	Warforged Veteran	0	1d8	None
2	Warforged Warrior	2,200	2d8	None
3	Warforged Swordmaster	4,400	3d8	None
4	Warforged Hero	8,800	4d8	None
5	Warforged Swashbuckler	17,000	5d8	None
6	Warforged Myrmidon	35,000	6d8	None
7	Warforged Champion	70,000	7d8	None
8	Warforged Superhero	140,000	8d8	None
9	Warforged Lord (Lady)	270,000	9d8	None
10	10th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	400,000	9d8+3	3rd Level Cleric : Limit 2 1st Level spells
11	11th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	530,000	9d8+6	5th Level Cleric : Limit 2 each 1st and 2nd Level spells
12	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	660,000	9d8+9	7th Level Cleric : Limit 2 each 1st, 2nd and 3rd Level, 1 each 4th and 5th Level spells

Also, from Companion : at 660k, gains same options as Fighter ( two attacks a turn )

"13"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	800,000	+1d6	9th Level Cleric : Limit 3 each 1st, 2nd and 3rd Level, 2 each 4th and 5th Level spells (2 Attacks a turn, Same as Fighter)
"14"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	1,000,000	+1d6	11th Level Cleric : Limit 4 each 1st, 2nd and 3rd Level, 3 each 4th and 5th Level spells
"15"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	1,200,000	+1d6	13th Level Cleric : Limit 5 each 1st and 2nd Level , 4 each 3rd and 4th Level and 3 5th Level spells
"16"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	1,400,000	+1d6	15th Level Cleric : Limit 6 1st Level, 5 each 2nd and 3rd Level, 3 each 4th and 5th Level, 1 6th Level spells (Auto half damage from spells and spell like effects, if effect saveable one quarter damage)
"17"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	1,600,000	+1d6	17th Level Cleric : Limit 6 each 1st and 2nd Level, 5 each 3rd Level, 4 each 4th and 5th Level, 2 6th and 1 7th Level spells
"18"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	1,800,000	+1d6	19th Level Cleric : Limit 7 1st Level, 6 2nd Level , 5 3rd, 4 each 4th, 5th and 6th Level, 2 7th Level spells
"19"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	2,000,000	+1d6	21th Level Cleric : Limit 7 1st Level, 6 2nd Level , 5 3rd, 4th and 5th Level, 4 6th Level, 3 7th Level spells
"20"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	2,200,000	+1d6	23th Level Cleric : Limit 7 1st and  2nd Level , 6 each 3rd and 4th Level, 5 5th Level, 4 6th and 7th Level spells (3 Attacks a turn, Same Saving Throws as Fighter 22-24)
"21"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	2,400,000	+1d6	26th Level Cleric : Limit 9 1st Level, 8 each 2nd, 3rd and 4th Level, 7 5th Level, 5 6th Level, 3 7th Level spells
"22"	12th Level Warforged Lord (Lady)	2,600,000	+1d6	29th Level Cleric : Limit 9 each 1st, 2nd Level, 3rd Level, 8 each 4th and 5th Level, 7 6th Level and 4 7th Level spells (Same Saving Throws as Fighter 25-27)

I'm assuming Clerical spells are researched by Level 9 and gained when leveled ton 10 from watching and asking questions... I'd allow limited exposure practice, like 1 1st Level. Practice makes familiarity.

Do they sound ok? The above from Companion under Special Defenses, clerical from same. Last Spell Level is a slight fudge, cannot find my copy of Master.

TT

[truetanker]

"23" 12th Level Warforged God ( Goddess )      3,000,000      +1d6

29th Level Cleric : Unlimited Spell Level

All Saving Throws as ONE lower than Fighter 25

4 Attacks a turn

I know the thought of a WarForged God is absurd but something that has been around for so long could be considered a Multi-Class, Fighter-Cleric-(Bard or Druid 7th Level)

Something to amuse itself, right?

TT

[Wolf72]

although I grew up on 1e, late teen'd thru 2e, I really liked the 3e rule set. 

I've been putzing with some mods, namely a 1e style level limit with higher levels at better stats, with an open multiclassing from 3e, the level limits don't sting as much.

 Scaling of skill points after 10 ranks (something like 1/2, for 11-20; 1/3 for 20-30; 1/4 for 40+.

bringing back weapon proficiencies ... no more, "here take all martial weapons!" for warrior types.

Some class synergies (warrior 4 can take weapon spec).

Between 3x and PF1 I feel I've got a good read on most of the design aspects for characters and critters.


Back to the warforged: I'd still look at the 3x/PF stats and go with those with 1e rules.  I my HR stats as +4 Str, no con, -2 int/wis/cha.

[truetanker]

I did look at that, but they feel like a pre-gen cog.

I wanted to create a player character with 1st edition stats that sounded correct for that era of time.

I love the 2nd AD&D "double -Odd" STR 18 and roll 2d10 or a d100 for variable.

But I also love fate rolls, you know, 2d6 as is, but wanted to add a + number to that for added pre-built abilities.

As is, would you play a WarForged listed above? I need to play test this to see if it's broken, for 1st Ed is broken,vwhy the 2nd became popular.

TT

[Wolf72]

between my best friend and brother, nothing was ever overpowered in 1e. ... That 15th level monk who could dodge arrows? ... well how about a short horde of orcs (30 or so) with light crossbows.

hard call from me, the personal power a character might have, the less 'other' power they'd start with or have access too (ie equipment).

That's where I like the 3x/PF stuff, which works well with 1e too ... hmm, you just pasted all the baddies? add a few levels of warrior (no special compared to fighter) and gain, HP, BAB, and a few saves. 

I'm so out of touch with actual play (3+ years since I moonlighted in a game, and that was 5e) I couldn't give a fair once over.  But, a good player be good with "lets try this out, if it turns into a monster, we'll tone it down some."

[truetanker]

Except the player rarely gets XP,  it's like a thousand max per section, average 800 or so a game, mostly from treasure XP. Your looking at a year every weekend per 5 hr sessions before you get anywhere good, other than a Wish. You could double that if you're really a player, but cramming a 10 hour a week session or two 5 hr ones are going to cramp play.

As is, a session has how many 10 minute non- combat turns, your bound to take a half hour yakfest telling you what happened last time and where you could go, followed by an hour of exploratory combat with a half hour siesta for real food, the obligated 15 minute pee break or three and back to yakking away with a final wrap up battle before next session.

Repeat...

TT

[idea weenie]

Thats what they're aiming for too...  they keep building castles in Minecraft as they argue about the final design.

Introduce them to the Downtime rules, and let them graduate from handling one building with its teams of individuals, to managing buildings & organizations, careful investing, all the way to running a Kingdom?

For those browsing offline:
- d20pfsrd downtime - the Downtime Rules
- d20pfsrd downtime rooms teams - buying/constructing a building out of components and getting the people/groups to run it for you
- d20pfsrd downtime buildings organizations - buying multiple buildings and having organizations working for you
- d20pfsrd campaign investments - putting your gold into investments to hopefully make more gold without having to personally defend or work for it
- d20pfsrd Kingdom building - running a town with farms, and hopefully expanding the town and farms to take over more land (and a good GM will make the characters have to explore the land to make sure it is safe)

[paladin2019]

I've been putzing with some mods, namely a 1e style level limit with higher levels at better stats, with an open multiclassing from 3e, the level limits don't sting as much.

I did this, with the character's appropriate ability score(s) being the limiter. For example, a non-human paladin could have no more paladin levels than the lower of their Strength or Charisma.

As is, would you play a WarForged listed above? I need to play test this to see if it's broken, for 1st Ed is broken,vwhy the 2nd became popular.

Note that I wrote the warforged above simply as a tweak to the extant 0e dwarf class. Adding spells and wildly increasing the maximum level makes it very unbalanced compared to other 0e classes.

[truetanker]

I thought these were 1e...

TT

[paladin2019]

Race as class is a post-White Box 0e concept.

[truetanker]

I thought that was 2e, with 3e+ being more diverse, especially 5e.

TT

[paladin2019]

The history. White box and the top line are all 0e, the bottom is 1e and 2e.

[Daryk]

They missed 2.5... ;)

[paladin2019]

They missed 2.5... ;)

No, I didn't. I chose not to include it.

[Daryk]

Fair choice... ;)

[truetanker]

Ah...

I'm using Mentazer's version... Those box sets...

So many reprints, each version slightly changed either language of the print or formatted for the timed.

TT

[paladin2019]

What I wrote is appropriate for Blue Box through RC.

[truetanker]

Thanks..

TT

[DOC_Agren]

That Warforged God, most likely has "lived" a long life after it's creator has died..

[mikecj]

Introduce them to the Downtime rules, and let them graduate from handling one building with its teams of individuals, to managing buildings & organizations, careful investing, all the way to running a Kingdom?

For those browsing offline:
- d20pfsrd downtime - the Downtime Rules
- d20pfsrd downtime rooms teams - buying/constructing a building out of components and getting the people/groups to run it for you
- d20pfsrd downtime buildings organizations - buying multiple buildings and having organizations working for you
- d20pfsrd campaign investments - putting your gold into investments to hopefully make more gold without having to personally defend or work for it
- d20pfsrd Kingdom building - running a town with farms, and hopefully expanding the town and farms to take over more land (and a good GM will make the characters have to explore the land to make sure it is safe)

Thanks!!!

[truetanker]

One of my players texted me earlier today about seeing a Dragonborn / Dragonkin in 1e.

Haven't replied yet...

I can find little on the subject in my books, 2e+ yes...

Barbarian with Breath attack?

What about the other half-breeds?

There is a section of NPC as a Player rules...

TT

[Wolf72]

dragonborn really becomes a regular race in 3x/PF, 2e is some hokey-pokey dragon magic.

Dragonkin is a 3x monster, think of some sort of scaly ogre with wings.

Here's a homebrew PF version for 3x/PF.
Dragonborn, [13 racial points]
[10 RP] Medium dragon, Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light Vision, Dragon immunities
[0 RP] +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Dex (standard)   ... these would be +1/+1/-1 in 1e.  Did Basic (a misnomer!) have stat mods?
[3 RP] Scales and Claws: +1 natural armor, 2 Claws (1d4+str)
May take Dragon Wings (RoD) as a first level feat (including associated feats at later levels)
May take Hulking Brute (DLCS) as a first level feat.

In a 1e world: keep the stats, give it the claw attacks, check out the dragon entry in the MM for vision and immunities (if any), AC is bonus would be -1 (1e and Basic, iirc) as 1e AC goes down

[truetanker]

Masters / Immortals have Dragon stats, their considered Small in the Basic set, while Large and Huge are listed.

But Bite / Crush base variant ( White, Black, Green, Blue, Red and Gold )
Claws / Wings / Tail damage is also different

But Small prefers to fight grounded so rarely takes flight and hardly tail swipes.

" I can tail swipe? " said the bemused Young Dragon just before they attack with their Breath!

But back to the hybrid:
Fighter
Add +1 STR, +1 CHA and -1DEX to Standard 3d6 rolls.
Add -1 to AC due to Natural Armor?
Add Breath Attack once a day, based on color, range is 1/3rd that of Dragon and 1d6 damage on average, +1 per level above TWO

Anything else is standard play.

TT

[Wolf72]

been so long since I've looked at D&D (vs AD&D), going to take your word for it.

[Bedwyr]

Just chiming in on the discussion. Our Roll20 group recently finished Curse of Strahd 5th ed after several years of campaigning. We only get to run campaigns a couple hours a week at best (children, 2nd businesses, and volunteering to care for elderly dogs that wake up at 5am) but we make it work.

Right now we're working on a Shadowrun intro module and I'm slowly working on at 6th ed campaign that I hope won't be too long before we get back into D&D. During the OSL controversy, we were discussing Pathfinder but it sounds like things have settled back down mostly amicably.

[Daryk]

PF2e has an interesting action economy you might want to check out.

[Istal_Devalis]

Dragonborn, as they are now, are a true race with distant relations to dragons in their origin mythology from 4e. They're not half breeds. They were highly civilized and tended to worship Bahamut/Tiamat. They tended to be fighters, paladins, and sorcerers. 5e kept a lot of that but got rid of the tails.

3e Dragonborn were human followers of Bahamut who had dragon powers and characteristics imbued into them by their god.

In neither case were they barbarian types. They were intelligent, civilized beings.

In old school terms id make them physical fighters who gain more dragon like abilities as they level up, based on their related dragon color. Followers of Bahamut can be paladins, otherwise id make them fighter/wizards.

[truetanker]

But would you give them a base + or - in their collective beginning stat block?

Roll 2d6, adjust normally, add these racial bonuses per DM approval.

Gain these traits and abilities ad you level up.

And so on?

Trying to incorporate the Halfsies into 1e, kinda like what I did for the WarForged.

Heck, one can play Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse in D&D using 1e if rules are converted.

TT

[Daryk]

You meant 3d6, surely... ;)

[truetanker]

Yeah, but I love fate characters! 

TT

[Istal_Devalis]

For Dragonborn? Some variant of a bonus to Str/Con and to Cha.

[Prospernia]

I like what they did with 4e; to me, it's a different game than classic, AD&D, so I approach it differently.

And we did play a rather fun game of Dark-Sun using White Wolf's Mage game. 

Except the player rarely gets XP,  it's like a thousand max per section, average 800 or so a game, mostly from treasure XP. Your looking at a year every weekend per 5 hr sessions before you get anywhere good, other than a Wish. You could double that if you're really a player, but cramming a 10 hour a week session or two 5 hr ones are going to cramp play.

As is, a session has how many 10 minute non- combat turns, your bound to take a half hour yakfest telling you what happened last time and where you could go, followed by an hour of exploratory combat with a half hour siesta for real food, the obligated 15 minute pee break or three and back to yakking away with a final wrap up battle before next session.

Repeat...

TT

So, when we got Dragon-Kings: a source-book for AD&D2e Dark Sun, we were all giddy because we could advance beyond 20th-level and become supernatural-beings; well, until we realized he had to play, nearly a decade in real-life, to get the XP from 3rd-level to 20th to even get to be a 30th-level Dragon.

[Istal_Devalis]

I also greatly liked 4e, but the well was so thoroughly poisoned by people it was hard to get players. A lot of that animus appears to have died down a bit, though, and people are more likely to incorporate its ideas. Maybe we'll eventually get a Warlord in 5e.

Lancer's been scratching a lot of the same tactical gameplay itch for me, and you can see a 4e influence on it.

[Daryk]

I gave 4e an honest try, but it just didn't work for me.

[truetanker]

Multi-Classes

What's your favorite type(s)?

And at what level do you start thinking about it?

Do you try to justify the need or is it a character need?

I see magic users learning combat skills of a rouge, maybe a fighter with a bard's voice?

Druidic Monk? They kick ass for their Deity...

What about other weird combos that you've seen?

TT

[Ruger]

Multi-Classes

What's your favorite type(s)?

And at what level do you start thinking about it?

Do you try to justify the need or is it a character need?

I see magic users learning combat skills of a rouge, maybe a fighter with a bard's voice?

Druidic Monk? They kick ass for their Deity...

What about other weird combos that you've seen?

TT

There’s the typical Sorlock (Sorcerer/Warlock), I rather like my Tiefling Aberrant Mind sorcerer mixed to a warlock with Great Old One patron and a pact of the tome. Would go 7 levels of Sorcerer and the other 13 in Warlock (to get as much benefit from the pact and the the book of ancient secrets invocation as possible.

Also, BardLock (bard/warlock), HexKnight (warlock/paladin).

I’m rather fond of 3 levels of Eldritch Knight (or Prescient Knight if you use Kobold Press stuff) Fighter to go with Bladesinger Wizard. Minimal impact loss of Spellcasting to gain action surge and some extra always prepped spells and abilities.

Have come up with a satyr that’s a warlock (Archfey patron), Bard (college of Whispers), and paladin (oath of the Ancients). You can thank the Pathfinder Horned Hunter mini for that one.

Have just this morning/last night gotten interested in trying the possibilities of a Druid/warlock mix using Kobold Press subclass of The Old Wood patron for the Warlock and a Circle of the Lamd Druid. Blame this one on the Nature Warden pathfinder mini.

Also have a half-Orc Blood Hunter and Warlock mix (using Kobold Press’s Hunter in Darkness patron, but have to create some stuff for the Blood Hunter doing that if using the Order of the Profane for the Blood Hunter.

Have a Warforged that is a scout rogue and ranger (Fey wanderer) mix.

And a bugbear that is a Barbarian (totem warrior)/ranger (gloom stalker)/ Druid (circle of the moon).

Also, a gunslinger fighter mixed with battle smith artificer with a mechanical hound companion seems kind of fun to me.

Edit: of course, I should probably mention that I have a file that’s almost 80 Word pages long of rules edits (including some modifications on base classes, and how feats and ability score improvements are gained, and how two weapon fighting works, some of which seem to mimic changes that are currently being tested for the upcoming update), self-created magic items (including MANY new Vestiges of Divergence I created based off those from Critical Role), and some other stuff (including my inclusion of some of the Kobold Press warlock patrons into the Order of the Profane Blood Hunters), so some of my choices above are predicated off of using some of this.

Ruger

[Kit deSummersville]

I had a gnomish Illusionist/Rogue (the Arcane trickster). That had some fun multiclassing synergy but more as a support character.

[paladin2019]

Multi-Classes

What's your favorite type(s)?

Cleric/ranger. Bows and swords and better surprise chances for the party and clerical magic is great. It's kind of costly on the xp front, however.

And at what level do you start thinking about it?

1st level, as required.

Do you try to justify the need or is it a character need?

It's just a thing half-elves can do. No need to "justify."

[truetanker]

I designed for a 5e game, never played as game was called off, a Half Elf (Dark Elf) Ranger-Rouge with dual weapon proficiency.

As is, I needed 13 Dex to get the Rouge Multi-Class and 13 WIS/DEX for Ranger, I get +2 CHA from Half-Elf and another +1 CHA from the Drow sub-class, but note I also get Perception bonuses from the Ranger and Rouge, not to mention I can assign more from the Half-Elf base. So I can theoretically remove the Daylight Stigma...

But, alas, game called because not enough people to play.

TT

[Ruger]

I designed for a 5e game, never played as game was called off, a Half Elf (Dark Elf) Ranger-Rouge with dual weapon proficiency.

As is, I needed 13 Dex to get the Rouge Multi-Class and 13 WIS/DEX for Ranger, I get +2 CHA from Half-Elf and another +1 CHA from the Drow sub-class, but note I also get Perception bonuses from the Ranger and Rouge, not to mention I can assign more from the Half-Elf base. So I can theoretically remove the Daylight Stigma...

But, alas, game called because not enough people to play.

TT

Sounds like you had some house rules there too, as in normal 5e (at least to start), the half elf got a +2 bonus to charisma, and +1 to two other stats, Fey ancestry for advantage on saves vs being charmed, darkvision and two skill proficiencies (which could later be traded to get dark elven magic or weapon training if you wanted to be clearly a half dark elf). No perception bonus from race in either case, except proficiency bonus in perception (auto for dark elf; provisional for half elf, as it could be one of your two skill choices).

Ruger

[truetanker]

Well it was from memory and I want to think PHB and 5ewiki was involved.

But yeah, would have been a cool looking Chara.

Ala Drizzt Do'Urden minus Cinder and his bone rings.

Used Falchions instead of Scimitars.

Otherwise, pretty neat...

Now I need to get my PS2 Baldurs Gate up and running with him... Consider it is a secret code and all.

TT

[Daryk]

In 3.x, 4 levels of Fighter were your friend no matter what other class you took.

I'm in a PF2e game right now with a Rogue who took the Eldritch Trickster racket (which is essentially a spell casting multi-class), then (since the DM decided to use the Free Archetype rules) went into Scout and Horizon Walker.  It's glorious to be able to move halfway across the map unseen (now that I have the Swift Sneak feat).

[truetanker]

Rouge-Monk Halfling with a Pugilistic background, stealing isn't bad, getting caught is, but double sesti attacks from your blindside, in broad daylight, while sneaking around?

Yes please...

TT

[Wolf72]

Ach, "not Rouge's" ... they're way OP!  (j/k) 

What I liked about 3x/PF is the way I could look back and readily update and adapt 1e material.

[paladin2019]

Used Falchions instead of Scimitars.

Which, of course, are the same thing in 5e's weapon class paradigm.

Ach, "not Rouge's" ... they're way OP!  (j/k) 

Hey, good make-up war paint is where it's at!

What I liked about 3x/PF is the way I could look back and readily update and adapt 1e material.

I don't find stuff difficult to update to 5e, either.

[Prospernia]

I'd like to see if we can include every edition of the game.

Homebrews are great but I'd rather support official play.

Homebrews are the basis of D&D.

But, does your characters read, write and swim?

Reading and writing is a rarity, as I found out the more I read about history (Day in the Life, Books).  That's what I liked about Non-Weapon proficiencies.  In early editions it was assumed your PC could do that, but until I got the The Wilderness & Dungeoneer's Survival-Guide.  When we played Dark Sun; swim?

Do you allow horse / beastial riding, ranged / melee weapon ( basic swing verse learned)

Depends on the PC's culture; and again, I didn't really think much of it until I went to college.

Does your campaign have multi sprawling maos or hexagon? Do you use official 6 / 24 mile measurements or other?

Back in the day, pre-computers. Hand-drawn maps; we never used hexes, though, I can see why they can be very useful.

Do you prefer a mix, Square, Round or Bailey style Castles.

Depends on the culture and the era.  I had the AD&D2e Castles-guide, and we built our own keeps;  It felt better when we could do the math instead of just draw it however we liked. Also, my players did not enjoy taxes as much as I did!

Does your characters shop in stores everywhere or just a few stalls in Town / Village?

So, back in the day, we just had video-games for reference, and of course, there was a guy selling something, (the same guy) in every village, no matter how small. However, as time went on, we realized that, that, wasn't realistic. So, when my PCs went to a town, to buy a sword, and they looked at him, because, it's a farming village and the local-lord doesn't allow the serfs to posses weapons.

How about your Cities and Forts?

  So, each city has a market and market-days (Holidays).  Also, each city has a street, with a picture of what the people do and sell there.

Holidays?

"Dare sir, it's Lord Horold's birthday".

[truetanker]

"Huzzah for Lord Horold!"

I try to incorporate at least one each fresh veggie / meat / fish stalls, a local bakery along with one minimum saloon inn for thirsty villagers. A local stone chapel, a single open room design, a drinking well and two other Village buildings, guard shack w/stable and a smithery.

Generally, I allow pretty much anything basic available, but specific or specialties, well that requires some hard RP and good die rolls.

Need a local herb? Yep. How about a sword, maybe, someone got cursed? Good luck...

TT

[paladin2019]

Reading and writing is a rarity, as I found out the more I read about history (Day in the Life, Books). 

This is an overstated canard. Literacy rates are very specific to time and place. The Canterbury Tales is a prime example. It is written in the common folks' vernacular, Middle English, not the nobles' Norman French, which tells us who it was intended for. Then there is the level and sophistication of the Vulgar Latin graffiti in Rome. I have always left literacy as a generally resourceless player choice in fantasy RPGS because...

wasn't realistic

Realism isn't my goal. My goal is verisimilitude.

Do you allow horse / beastial riding, ranged / melee weapon ( basic swing verse [sic] learned)

As I see it, anyone can sit on a horse or swing a sword. To fight from a mount or be effective in combat with a weapon requires training. This is the core of D&D's idea of proficiencies.

[truetanker]

To quote my departed uncle:

"If you are or were a soilder in the military, congratulations. Your a trained monkey who can push a button that drops the atum. How superior are you now?"

He never said atom it was always atum... He passed away of Pneumoconiosis, black lung, in '88, being of sixty-eight.

TT

[Istal_Devalis]

A lot of things done in dnd for the sake of 'realism' are more for the sake of Victorian misinformation, personal bias, incorporating fictional retellings, and trying to cram 1000 or so years of history across the globe into one setting.

See people being fine with full plate but stating that guns are 'to early'. Or having mesoamerican styled cities as filled with 'primitives'. Or that everyone wore some shade of brown because no one heard of dyes until modern times.

[truetanker]

Guns are fine, it's the automatics and revolver/ lever types that people want to use.

A single bullet, shot out of a tube via powder is fine.

I'd state three combat rounds to fire and reload as anything faster is to obvious.

Making the weapon should take a month in-game, ammo a few hours to make a dozen rounds.

After all, perfection and balance is key, plus the materials needed.

Damage and range should be no more than a dozen feet or so, longer with careful aim.

But this gets into house rules.

TT

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And if you don't rebalance bows and crossbows at the same time, you can expect to be called out on it, too.  All ranged weapons in D&D have significantly greater rates of fire than is realistic.

[truetanker]

Going by the old language tables, :

3d6 Intelligence

3-  has trouble speaking, cannot read or write

{Wow, that's harsh, you can stammer and stutter.}

4-5- cannot read or write Common

{Middle Ages much?}

6-8- can write simple Common

{Third grade tech?}

But, 9-12 is Average and knows 2 Languages, Common and Alignment. Not only can you read and write, your a normal. The Alignment is (was) Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic, but since they expended those...

Also on the mater of time: a Turn was 10 in game minutes, a combat Round was 10 in game seconds.

Which is why I suggest 3 rounds per gunshot, 30 seconds is pretty fast.

TT

[Prospernia]

Guns; hey, that reminds me to work on my world, where Arquebuses are common; It's called, "The Forest of the Sough" (Sough: is the Olde English word for the sound of people sleeping or wind through the trees).  It takes place in a forest and well, there's a war between the trees, but anyway. 

Reading and writing does vary; in a rural, feudal-setting, the majority of people don't have time to learn to read and write. It's only a necessity.

"Huzzah for Lord Horold!"

I try to incorporate at least one each fresh veggie / meat / fish stalls, a local bakery along with one minimum saloon inn for thirsty villagers. A local stone chapel, a single open room design, a drinking well and two other Village buildings, guard shack w/stable and a smithery.

Generally, I allow pretty much anything basic available, but specific or specialties, well that requires some hard RP and good die rolls.

Need a local herb? Yep. How about a sword, maybe, someone got cursed? Good luck...

TT

I would say, that Lord Horold thanks you, but, the last time I spoke for him, he'd have me whipped and I don't have a  hide-gild.

There have been games, in which magic was common; every village had a resident magic-user and a tavern etc. 

And for my games, I don't get Medieval on their butts, I get Anthropological: i.e. I ask questions about that world like, Is it an agrarian or pastorial-soceity?  Who is the, "Big-Man"?  Every group of people will have a one who dominates.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Guns; hey, that reminds me to work on my world, where Arquebuses are common; It's called, "The Forest of the Sough" (Sough: is the Olde English word for the sound of people sleeping or wind through the trees).  It takes place in a forest and well, there's a war between the trees, but anyway. 

Reading and writing does vary; in a rural, feudal-setting, the majority of people don't have time to learn to read and write. It's only a necessity.

Kind of depends.  A lot of the "illiterate idiots" view of Medieval Europe was a result of Renaissance Era writers having a very romanticized view of the Roman Empire and considering post-Roman Europe to be a much worse place.  People got classified as being illiterate in the Medieval Era because they couldn't read or write Latin, regardless of whether or not they could read and write other languages.

[truetanker]

On the gun subject, I'd give the rifles same range as Shortbows, with pistols half that. No Profecency a -2 to hit, Some Profecency hits normal. Mastery gains +1, Magical adds more +s, based on level.

Cannons requirements are a full ten minutes per shot, double this if a larger crew and has Light Catapult range.

TT

[Wolf72]

Int & languages. 
In 3x/PF it's easy to pick up some extra languages, but I was always of the opinion that a N/PC should have to burn two (or more if it is not a class skill) skill points, one for speaking, another for read/write.  Also feeling free to drop a - mod to DC for some languages, "You want to try to read Orc?", especially if they are not known for a written language (Ogres and other brutes).

iirc it's a bit more harsh in 1e, I don't recall getting a ton of secondary skills/proficiencies to begin with.  If your Int was average, then you were a bit out of luck. (heck, just looked at my PHb, a score of 11 gets you +2 languages beyond your initial and alignment.  Did demi-humans get common and their racial language anyway?  I think they did)

[paladin2019]

iirc it's a bit more harsh in 1e, I don't recall getting a ton of secondary skills/proficiencies to begin with.  If your Int was average, then you were a bit out of luck. (heck, just looked at my PHb, a score of 11 gets you +2 languages beyond your initial and alignment.  Did demi-humans get common and their racial language anyway?  I think they did)

In 1e, non-humans have their own rules for languages. Usually, it is a number of set languages and then a very limited number of additional ones...like 1 extra at 16, 17, and 18 Int each for elves who have 9 initial languages, including elvish, common, and alignment.

2e sets everyone to the same Int chart, but requires all of the languages mentioned in the <species> description to be acquired first. For example, a dwarf is initially restricted to spending their additional languages on common, gnome, goblin, kobold, and orc. Of course, humans are limited to only using these slots on languages the DM determines they have encountered, banking the balance for a potential maximum after they have found tutors, etc.

In both cases, you will have, at most, two secondary skills (which are more an umbrella of professions and the associated knowledge) and that is only if you leave the determination completely to chance. Also, you use the secondary skills or non-weapon proficiency system, not both.

[truetanker]

Yeah, real pain if you can understand it.

I always house rule it on a d20 chance to communicate in lang. Doublely so to written.

Learning a new language is kind of hard, the pronounciatons and syllables can he harsh or guttural in some cases. I've always hear Elven as sing-song, Dwarven as more death metal deep, Orcs and Ogre two rocks scraping themselves with snorts in-between breathes. Trolls and Ents crackling branches, and Fey a musical high pitched buzz.

Of course there's dialects and such, but generally one cannot tell with demi-humans or monsters.

TT

[Wolf72]

IAlso, you use the secondary skills or non-weapon proficiency system, not both.

Right! wow, burning some gray matter here ... I'll fall back on C-3PO "Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough, it's all my fault!

[truetanker]

I've fumbled an attack before that caused a distraction for my group to exploit...

Got some XP for it too!

That was thirty odd years ago.

Anything like that happened to you?

TT

[DOC_Agren]

one of my favorite multiclass was 2nd edition was an Elven Infiltrator

Now I never got high level..  But a Fighter, Thief, Mage

1st edition, used to be with 1 of our GM, if you could justify knowing a skill from your background, he would give you a chance to pull it off.   

[idea weenie]

Guns; hey, that reminds me to work on my world, where Arquebuses are common; It's called, "The Forest of the Sough" (Sough: is the Olde English word for the sound of people sleeping or wind through the trees).  It takes place in a forest and well, there's a war between the trees, but anyway. 

Sounds almost like real-life allelopathy, but faster.   

Reading and writing does vary; in a rural, feudal-setting, the majority of people don't have time to learn to read and write. It's only a necessity.

This is how I have figured the different class levels:
Commoner - home-schooled without additional textbooks (i.e. only what the parents and maybe neighbors remember)
Expert - home-schooled with books, test, and lesson plans, or a local farming school that has books, tests, and lesson plans.

So a Commoner with 12 pts in Wisdom would have 3 Skill points that could be put into Profession(Farming).  They only know how to use one type of simple weapon, and no armor or shield knowledge.

An identical character but as an Expert would have 6 Skill points that could be put into Profession(Farming).   That identical character would also have better overall physical fitness (d8 hit pts vs d6) and better combat abilities (can use all simple weapons and light armor).

The key difference is access to concentrated educational material, rather than parents and neighbors trying to pass on just what they remember.

[Prospernia]

Sounds almost like real-life allelopathy, but faster.   

Actually, it's a lot slower; the spirits of the trees are at war; it can take centuries, or a millennium.  About the same time NWoD came out, I got my Forgotten-English calendar (kind of), and associated with NWoD's Spirit's book, because, they wrote an entire book on spirits verses just a chapter on them in Werewolf: The Apocalypse.  But, the D&D 2e aspect remained with me. When I think of a game, it can have other game-systems.

This is how I have figured the different class levels:
Commoner - home-schooled without additional textbooks (i.e. only what the parents and maybe neighbors remember)
Expert - home-schooled with books, test, and lesson plans, or a local farming school that has books, tests, and lesson plans.

So a Commoner with 12 pts in Wisdom would have 3 Skill points that could be put into Profession(Farming).  They only know how to use one type of simple weapon, and no armor or shield knowledge.

An identical character but as an Expert would have 6 Skill points that could be put into Profession(Farming).   That identical character would also have better overall physical fitness (d8 hit pts vs d6) and better combat abilities (can use all simple weapons and light armor).

The key difference is access to concentrated educational material, rather than parents and neighbors trying to pass on just what they remember.

I always thought of adventurers as a cut above the rest, somehow as they got more hit-points than normal though XP.   To be able to save for starting gold, they have to be upper-class, in some capacity.  I know they were assuming everyone is well-off like modern-society, but that'snot always the case.

[Daryk]

I always preferred 1e Vampire myself... ;)

[Prospernia]

I always preferred 1e Vampire myself... ;)

We started on V:tM 2e.  The Player's Guide is one of my favorite books, because it has mortals as characters, which my also work in the Forest of the Sough (But I like them's arquebuses for AD&D 2e).

[Daryk]

The Player's Guides from both editions were treasures indeed! :)

[guardiandashi]

one of my favorite chars was arguably seriously broken.

she started out as a hatchling gold dragon and I used some things from the various dragon books. and was using the dragon hit die/age bracket limits so they were only allowed so many levels of dragon per age category. so with all that extra XP well the character was a multiclass fighter/mage/cleric.  the last time I played them they were a young adult with a total of ~35 hit die/levels and may have sacrificed a few levels to pay down level adjustment

[truetanker]

Did same in my game, but made sure it was a soft "hard" rule.

For every Multi-Class you use, half XP devided.

So 3 levels of Multi-Class, Prime gets half, second gets quarter, third gets other

Got 4? Quarter Marks each, 5? (Super rare) fifths... And so on.

TT

[Sartris]

me with the multiclass xp rules: https://x.com/PaladinAmber/status/1367651795862921216?s=20

[Daryk]

Hah... that's why my family never played UNO... we play with two Poker decks (including the Jokers) and call it "Nasty Neighbors".  Stacking is the rule du jour, and you don't know pain until you've had to draw more than 20 cards... >:)

[guardiandashi]

Did same in my game, but made sure it was a soft "hard" rule.

For every Multi-Class you use, half XP devided.

So 3 levels of Multi-Class, Prime gets half, second gets quarter, third gets other

Got 4? Quarter Marks each, 5? (Super rare) fifths... And so on.

TT

t was multi classing per 3.0/3.5 not gestalt
IE you take a level of fighter
then a level of mage
then cleric
around and around until you can take another level of dragon because you are in the next age bracket.
also racial levels (IE dragon) never count towards having unbalanced levels (that give xp penalties) and as long as the class levels are within 2 of each other IE fighter 5 mage 4 and cleric 3 (for example) you are ok, but you need to raise cleric next or you start getting xp penalties

actually I may have misread (or misremembered) it may have been more advantageous to multiclass IE for dragons the dragon race isn't counted as a class. fighter is a preferred class so no xp penalties as long as mage and cleric are within 1 level of each other