Author Topic: VotW: Yellow Jacket  (Read 16621 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Yellow Jacket
« on: 01 November 2021, 09:36:50 »
OK, so before we begin here... this is a unit that has a whole lot of strong reactions to it, positive and negative. I get that- and it means this will likely be a lively thread. I want to make this 100% clear, both as the author of the article and as an administrator on these forums: If your way of discussing it involves browbeating other posters and trying to shout louder than everyone else, take it elsewhere. Let's keep this on-topic, civil and respectful, please.


"Speak softly and carry a big... oh my..."

There was a time, dear reader, in which Battletech VTOLs were armed with skimpy weapons. Machine guns, SRM racks, LRM-5s, maybe a medium laser if you were really feeling bold- the large laser on the SLDF Cyrano looked positively obscene, even! (Honestly, it still kind of does, but that's a story for another day.) The idea of mounting something big like an autocannon or heavy LRM rack on a helicopter was the stuff of pipe dreams, or at the very least cause for taking whatever antipsychotics Max Liao was on. But as the 3050s wore on, the Clans were defeated, and Lostech became commonplace enough to begin showing up on non-Battlemech units, a new player entered the field- the game-changing Yellow Jacket.

Michaelson Heavy Industries has made some bold choices when it comes to vehicles over the years, but perhaps none were as grand in scope as the Yellow Jacket- an attempt to take the aerial gunship concept perfected by the Warrior decades earlier and turn it up to 11. The results are mixed, as we'll see, but the idea of mounting a heavyweight weapon like this hadn't really been done before- even the Warrior's AC/2 and Cyrano's large laser are dwarfed, though the resulting loss of speed is a little concerning. The idea was to create a rapidly-moving (compared to ground units) fire support platform that could rapidly react to enemy formations and deal with trouble spots, and the designers didn't do a bad job when you look at it from a support standpoint. It doesn't quite stand up as well as one might like, but that's more due to the rules of Battletech than anything else. Let's give the beast a look.

We find early on that compared to other attack helicopters, the Jacket is remarkably pedestrian in its movement- 6/9 isn't enough to outpace many ground units! Now, the caveat there is that of course a VTOL is passing over terrain obstacles, so it's not quite as slow as it looks- in theory, a Locust can chase one down, but in practice the VTOL's ability to ignore terrain obstacles gives it a bit of an edge still on any but the flattest terrain. But, there's no denying that it's slow- and the to-hit numbers on one will reflect that every time. Think of it as a flying assault Mech, really- it can't dodge incoming fire, and it can't deploy as fast as other units, so it's going to have to be carefully used, and accept that it's going to take a beating.

Luckily, Michaelson took that into account when they installed that little ICE engine, and made sure the Jacket won't get dropped easily. A previously unheard-of amount of armor coats this monster! Three and a half tons of armor is absurd compared to every prior VTOL, and it makes for a very difficult customer to put down. The front armor is twenty points, able to easily withstand just about anything that it could get hit with (at least once!), where other aircraft would simply crumple. The sides have thirteen points each, and even the rear can withstand a large laser at eight points. The rotors, of course, are the weak spot, but there's nothing to really be done about that per construction rules (and basic physics). Hitting a Yellow Jacket isn't hard, with its low airspeed, but making those shots do the job can be frustrating- you don't want that thing to survive to shoot back, after all, and it has a maddening habit of doing exactly that.

And why would that be a problem? Because the little missile packs and annoyances of past VTOL weapons are thrown away on the Yellow Jacket, in favor of the one weapon they knew could actually match the Clan hordes pound for pound on the late-3050s battlefield... the Gauss Rifle. That's right, Michaelson took the Hollander, cut off its legs, and crammed a rotor on its head. At fifteen tons, this is the single largest weapon to ever get tossed on a VTOL, even by the Dark Ages. That little ICE lawnmower engine? Yeah, that's where the weight savings went. If you're not familiar with the worry about a flying Gauss rifle, welcome to Battletech. Able to rip a meidum Mech's arm off in one shot, and punch worrying holes in even an Atlas' armor, putting such a weapon on a quick-response platform like this is a neat idea (theoretically), and makes for a heck of a combination when paired with the classic SRM-armed VTOLs- nail a target with a Gauss shot, then fill the armor hole up with SRMs until fun things happen. Two tons of ammunition feed the gargantuan gun.

It goes without saying that this is an all-or-nothing proposition- you accept going in, before ever rolling dice, that you aren't going to move around fast, you aren't going to avoid fire, and even with that elephant hide armor, you're going to take a lot of return fire- more than most VTOLs, because that Gauss rifle is just too powerful to let it roam around all day. It's like dealing with a Hunchback in 3025 play- since the giant scary cannon is coming this way, and it can't be allowed to fire more than once, it has to get lit up by every available weapon, period. The Jacket is the same way- if you get a shot at it, you take that shot. So that armor gets tested early and often. Which means an expensive asset has to be very carefully used, or you won't have it for long at all. The author would of course like to note that while a single Jacket is a terrifying thing to behold in action, a platoon of them is an unforgivable nightmare to deal with- particularly since, as they avoid terrain features, they can prove to be sneaky at finding their way into flanking maneuvers. A Yellow Jacket in the rear arc of a Vulture is a very unpleasant experience, as the author found in a test run- the Megamek bot likely wasn't expecting to lose the right half of his Mech on the first hit.


Proving that where there's a good idea, there's no reason to not run it, the Michaelson crew came up with a variant that they only build on request. A full ton of that impressive armor is removed in favor of a third ton of Gauss ammo, for extended operations. This ignores the fact that your Jacket will no longer be able to survive long enough to empty 24 rounds from the gun (even 16 on the original is optimistic!), and the author just can't comprehend a world in which this aircraft should be used over the original- or at all, honestly, unless you end up with one in a random force. It emphasizes the flaws of the original, while not adding any real positives to offset that problem, and that's never a good recipe.

Back to the ol' drawing board for Michaelson, who looked at their 'giant cannon with a rotor' concept and said 'what if we make it... bigger?'. The Arrow version of the Yellow Jacket is the unsurprising result. By dropping the Gauss, an enormous Arrow IV artillery launcher is installed (the author would love to see artwork for THAT!). This is interesting- it's faster than most other Arrow platforms, even with that stupid lawnmower engine, and it's far less likely to get shot down early in a game since it can fire from outside the range of weapons like ER large lasers and LB-2X guns. However, when one considers the ability to carry Arrow missiles as external ordnance on aircraft, this looks a little like a solution in search of a problem to solve. Two tons of ammo feed the launcher, and half a ton of armor was removed to install CASE for that ammo, a dubious upgrade really. It's not the worst idea, in theory, but just doesn't quite pan out as the neat concept the Michaelson engineers likely planned.

Another version popped up during the Civil War, a variant that couldn't scream 'DAVION' more if it came with a cheeseburger and Max Liao in a headlock exists as well, unsurprisingly stripping out the Gauss again for a RAC-5 because FedSuns. The author has always been a bit lukewarm to the RAC, seeing it as inferior overall to the tried-and-true LRM, but there are platforms that make good use of it (the later Legionnaire Battlemech, for example). This... is not one of those times. The slowpoke VTOL (the lawnmower engine remains!) is now relied on to get into close combat (compared to the other versions), where it will take considerably more return fire simply because it's in range of so many more weapons in the enemy force. When it arrives, it's spitting several five-point weapon hits (who knows how many will actually hit!), with no real knockout punch capability- and a significant chance to jam the gun and become impotent! The designers heaped on another 1.5 tons of plating to the armor (thanks?), likely as a band-aid to the 'more incoming fire' problem, and the two tons of ammo have CASE. A targeting computer is installed as a final treat, which makes the gun a bit more accurate, the whole aircraft considerably more expensive, and probably looked a lot better under the original RAC targeted-location rules.

A decade or so later, as the Jihad raged, a new variant debuted that took the concept and turned it on its ear. We again have a big, flying cannon, but the Gauss is gone again in favor of an ER PPC. The loss in raw power is theoretically made up for with the lack of ammo, for starters, but the real attraction is the switch for a light fusion engine in place of the old lawnmower motor. This also includes a reasonable speed increase, something the Jacket really needed! So while we lose 33% of our hitting power, we gain the ability to move around the field (and bump our to-hit number), which for the author is a reasonable exchange overall. The change to heavy ferro-fibrous armor is nice as well, though the author does note that none of the increases really hit the next threshold to keep out major weapons- the sides, for example, are up to 19 points each, just shy of keeping out an AC/20 hit, the rear can't quite keep a Gauss hit out, etc.- it feels like it comes up just shy everywhere of working out. Luckily, the powerful PPC hits are augmented with the use of a C3 slave system, allowing it to tie into a network and become a nasty mobile sniper. There are better options for the job, but this is nevertheless a pretty nasty customer to deal with if used smartly- probably the best overall Yellow Jacket in the right hands, despite having the lowest amount of theoretical damage per turn.


Even the PPC model just isn't a fast aircraft, no matter what, and using the Yellow Jacket with conventional helicopter tactics is a recipe for disaster. These have to be used as mobile snipers- keep far back to avoid return fire, choose your shots carefully, and don't take unnecessary risks to get better numbers. The value to a Yellow Jacket isn't in causing direct damage- that's nice, of course- but like the old Hunchback, it's a terror weapon. By existing, it forces the enemy to keep a watchful eye out for it, and forces them to consider where to move important units so they don't get hit- you're reducing their options simply by having a Jacket in your force, and that's worth more than any 15-point hit. Smartly used, a Jacket is a game-changer by being on the field- poorly used, it's gone so soon that it never mattered.

Obviously, the other side of it is that if your enemy has one, KILL THAT THING. You don't want to get hit with that big gun- any of them- any more than you absolutely have to, so the sooner it's on the ground burning, the better. LBX guns are obviously a great start, ER large lasers are good choices, LRMs, whatever you can aim at it. The absolute best way to get rid of them is a loitering aerospace fighter, if you have one handy. As before, a Jacket forces its enemy to reduce its options to avoid the punishment- the sooner you remove that limit, the more breathing room you have available, and the happier you'll be. This is not a unit you can afford to ignore for a later turn, in-general.

One final note, of course, is that the Yellow Jacket, warts and all, was a big success for Michaelson- unsurprisingly, they came up with a follow-on aircraft. The Hawk Moth looks at a glance to be a major Jacket variant, replacing the Gauss yet again with a Light Gauss Rifle, but in fact the Moth is a very different beast down to its core, and as such is outside the scope of this already-too-long article. Ink will likely be spilled about it in another article.

So go nuts, tell your stories, share your thoughts. Start a thread in the design area about any upgrades you'd like to see- I've seen mention of trying to cram a big MRM rack on one of these, which wouldn't work any better than the RAC but would be a heck of a sight to see, anyway. Snub-nosed artillery? (Hey, we're already dealing with a flawed concept, let's have fun with it!) Let's have some fun with one of the scariest concepts in Battletech!

(And again, be civil or don't post in here.)
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #1 on: 01 November 2021, 09:51:58 »
You don't take this chopper for speed - you take it because it's a flying gun.  Kinda like the Shockwave (of Transformers fame) of BattleTech VTOLs.

I think it makes a great flying gun.  Park it at medium to long range anywhere in the sky and dump Gauss slugs into the fight.  But anyone who knows a Yellow Jacket is going to be in the op-for will probably be prepared to take it down.  A LBX-AC/5 or bigger shooting cluster rounds at this thing will take its rotor out of the fight in a turn or two, probably.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #2 on: 01 November 2021, 10:14:03 »
Does pop-up shooting work with the Yellow Jacket? That is, hang behind LOS blocker, go up, fire, go back to hiding. 'Cause with that speed, other tactics seem questionable. It doesn't seem fast enough to hang behind battle lines and then fly closer to shoot a bit and then go back. Slowly circling an enemy (perhaps with off-map movement) is either suspicious or too slow.
The sheer firepower makes me want to try it though, regardless of viability.
Also i'd imagine Clanners would love these. Short but glorious life.

The Arrow IV variant seems neat. Kinda hard to use counterbattery fire against highly mobile artillery, not to mention flying artillery means you can get it where you want when you need it easier than something that moves on the ground. But this does mean one should have air superiority, perhaps.
External ordnance may allow for Arrow missiles but pretty sure those would slow down the helo, don't think it can really afford to lose any more speed. Not to mention it can't carry as many missiles as with internal magazine (where do they fit, i wonder). And external ordnance requires additional rules to be in play.
Was external ordnance for VTOLs even an option back the variant was published?

Too bad there's no Heavy Gauss Rifle variant  :D

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #3 on: 01 November 2021, 10:23:17 »
Too bad there's no Heavy Gauss Rifle variant  :D

Conventional tactic. Fire and retreat. Make it easier when your firing causes you to retreat. ;D

Have a fun image for a lance of the Arrow versions, with one packing a ton of ADA rounds in case Aerospace units get feisty.
« Last Edit: 01 November 2021, 10:37:45 by Nightsong »

JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #4 on: 01 November 2021, 10:48:12 »
Conventional tactic. Fire and retreat. Make it easier when your firing causes you to retreat. ;D

Have a fun image for a lance of the Arrow versions, with one packing a ton of ADA rounds in case Aerospace units get feisty.

Since aerospace units are probably the best way to get rid of Yellow Jackets to begin with (as I noted!), that's not the worst idea. As dangerous as the Yellow Jacket is to begin with, no one wants to trade a dead helicopter for a dead Shilone- so your anti-aircraft Jacket would be a pretty great defense against that. Which, again, speaks to the terror-weapon aspect I mentioned as well- we're forcing the enemy to reconsider using aerospace assets to deal with the problem, and so we're limiting his options before we ever roll dice, out of fear of losing units without a reasonable exchange possibility. You'll chance losing a fighter if it means putting down something like a Masakari or Demolisher, but trading it for a mere helicopter?
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #5 on: 01 November 2021, 10:52:03 »
The Arrow version is pretty nice for providing a fast raider group with some arty support. The PPC model is okay, but I'd prefer a Hawk Moth. I guess the Jacket might be preferable if you're already using C3 networks.

The other models are highly useful in the counterintelligence role, because if they ever show up on your rolls, you know everyone who has signed the procurement paperwork can safely be shot. Either they're taking bribes, or they're enemy agents. NONE of them are loyal to you.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #6 on: 01 November 2021, 11:23:51 »
In theory the Yellow Jackets can turn the tide of a fight by throwing Gauss slugs into a flank in a brilliant cavalry maneuver. In practice, they sit in the back of a formation taking pot shots at whatever medium 'mech got forced to close by Medium Laser optimization. In one sense that is a disappointment, but in another it is very handy because it means that your opponent has to have more variance and flexibility in their roster.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #7 on: 01 November 2021, 11:41:08 »
the Arrow-IV version has the distinction of being the most deadly VTOL in existence if Davy Crockett rounds are in play..

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #8 on: 01 November 2021, 12:19:20 »
Thank you very much for posting this.

I can't deny, having a massive cannon slapped onto a delicate helicopter speaks to me in ways that aren't entirely logical. ^-^ That said, this would be a prime candidate for some big missile packs: LRM20 and Semi-Guided LRMs, anyone?

Edit: The Yasha seems like the Combine saw this and thought, "Yeah... they've got a point." A bloody Heavy PPC or dual Artemis MML7s, with a speed boost to 7/11? Unfair.
« Last Edit: 01 November 2021, 12:26:21 by acksed »
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #9 on: 01 November 2021, 12:34:25 »
I can't deny, having a massive cannon slapped onto a delicate helicopter speaks to me in ways that aren't entirely logical. ^-^ That said, this would be a prime candidate for some big missile packs: LRM20 and Semi-Guided LRMs, anyone?
While LRMs are good for fire support, they lack damage concentration. If you have a light 'Mech or vehicle force, they most likely are lacking hole punchers and the Yellow Jacket offers that in a mobile package.


Incidentally, what Inner Sphere alternatives there are for mobile Gauss rifles or other heavy hitting weapons with range of 15 hexes or more? Mostly in light or medium classes.
The Hollander is of course a classic option but it is somewhat lacking in mobility. (And armor.)
The Regulator has hovercraft limits and is rather exclusive, though it maybe the finest option around.
What else?

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #10 on: 01 November 2021, 13:15:39 »
Having had and seen the Arrow-IV variant in action, i can vouch it's usability.  That thing just stays off maps and plinks targets.  Heck, you can go many levels above and not be hit by normal standard weapons fire if it is same map(s).   Not much fun on the other side if you got someone with TAG making sure you're targets getting greased by incoming Arrows.

This was in a RPG/Campaign type game, not a pick me up.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #11 on: 01 November 2021, 13:28:57 »
I kitbashed one.  But would love to see official art for it as well.  Also, are the wings supposed to be up or down?  I remember that being a discussion.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/killer-bees-arrow-jacket-golden-boys-yellow-jacket-vtol-cnc-morrigan-2/msg1595320/#msg1595320

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #12 on: 01 November 2021, 13:32:31 »
While LRMs are good for fire support, they lack damage concentration. If you have a light 'Mech or vehicle force, they most likely are lacking hole punchers and the Yellow Jacket offers that in a mobile package.


Incidentally, what Inner Sphere alternatives there are for mobile Gauss rifles or other heavy hitting weapons with range of 15 hexes or more? Mostly in light or medium classes.
The Hollander is of course a classic option but it is somewhat lacking in mobility. (And armor.)
The Regulator has hovercraft limits and is rather exclusive, though it maybe the finest option around.
What else?

As you get into the Jihad era, you start to see more units with things like heavy PPCs and the like, but even those tend to be pretty faction-exclusive, like the Wight, the Blitzkrieg, or the Hiryo. In the FCCW era, there's not a lot beyond what you listed, honestly, if you want to stay at 6/9 and above. (Even the Hollander is fudging it a bit, but I'll grant it an exception since as a Mech it has better terrain-handling than most vehicles, so it evens out a little. I suppose that means the Huron Warrior gets the same exception, and same problem- VERY faction-exclusive)

Amusingly, the Clans are able to replicate the Yellow Jacket formula- Gauss rifle, 6/9, able to survive a turn or so of return fire- with the Uller-A, just without the flying ability- AND tack on a couple of backup lasers. (To say nothing, of course, of the Donar, which is just sick and wrong on every level.)

As an aside, I did tinker with making a HGR-Jacket when this was written, about six years ago as I recall. It... doesn't work. Like, at all. You have to have beer-can armor, slow it down even more, and end up with four rounds of ammo (if memory serves), and no engineering team would be so daft as to even try something that stupid... nor would any procurement officer look at it and start counting out C-bills. It's sort of the old thing about putting MASC on an Annihilator- it can be done, if you really want to, but it's almost certainly not worth the cost or effort to do, other than for a laugh around the gaming table.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #13 on: 01 November 2021, 13:37:43 »
While LRMs are good for fire support, they lack damage concentration. If you have a light 'Mech or vehicle force, they most likely are lacking hole punchers and the Yellow Jacket offers that in a mobile package.
This is true.
Quote
Incidentally, what Inner Sphere alternatives are there for mobile Gauss rifles or other heavy hitting weapons with range of 15 hexes or more? Mostly in light or medium classes.
The Hollander is of course a classic option but it is somewhat lacking in mobility. (And armor.)
The Regulator has hovercraft limits and is rather exclusive, though it maybe the finest option around.
What else?
There's the Thunderbolt-15 variant of the Hawk Moth. Again, it's fragile, but that Mast Mount helps it hide and lob those big missiles at the same time. The speed bump doesn't hurt, either.
Then there's the DA Kamakiri: has a PPC and dual T-10s, with more-than-decent armour for all it's a super-heavy VTOL. It also has an iHGR version, because fark you that's why. :o
« Last Edit: 01 November 2021, 13:41:01 by acksed »
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #14 on: 01 November 2021, 13:42:14 »
While LRMs are good for fire support, they lack damage concentration. If you have a light 'Mech or vehicle force, they most likely are lacking hole punchers and the Yellow Jacket offers that in a mobile package.

Yeah, but he's talking about LRMs when compared to an RAC/5.  Both group their damage into 5-point clusters, LRMs don't jam, and LRMs have the benefit of having another 6 hexes of range over the RAC/5, letting your VTOL stand off more.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #15 on: 01 November 2021, 13:56:19 »
Yeah, but he's talking about LRMs when compared to an RAC/5.  Both group their damage into 5-point clusters, LRMs don't jam, and LRMs have the benefit of having another 6 hexes of range over the RAC/5, letting your VTOL stand off more.

To say nothing of the ability to get behind a hill and lob shots via spotter. If you can do that with a RAC, you've got Kai-levels of aim.  ^-^

As it is though, it just means that the Jacket- at least the PPC and Gauss versions- can cause enormous one-shot damage, and will as a result take an enormous punishment. There's no cover they can take that doesn't block their shot as much as the enemy, so if it comes out to fire, it's getting the full monty in return from every available gun. It has to. After all, a flying Gauss rifle, what other target do you have that takes greater priority than THAT? Unless the numbers are absurdly bad, or it's just out of range entirely of a weapon, it SHOULD be getting aimed at this silly contraption, because allowing it to fire more than once is a very bad idea- that's a headcapper, it CAN remove a Daishi's head with one shot, and if you let it stick around long enough to do so, you'll have deserved it. So if you're using one of these, the trick isn't just 'shoot Gauss until it stops being funny', it's to be smart. Find locations to fire from that give you reasonable chances to hit, but more importantly don't give as much of the field a shot back- if you can find a way to get only the target to see you, buildings and such providing cover from the rest of its friends, that's ideal. That's pretty basic Battletech in-general, of course, but here, with this being such an attention-grabbing unit, it's absolutely vital. If that means you fire at a 9 to-hit rather than a 7 if you move a couple of hexes closer (and in range of a couple of other units), you do it.

Remember- terror weapon. Your actual damage output is secondary to the THREAT of damage- so long as you're flying around like a nimrod, the enemy has to live in fear of you. Lose that chopper, even if it gets in a final shot in reply, and they can rest a lot easier.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #16 on: 01 November 2021, 13:58:14 »
Heck, you can go many levels above and not be hit by normal standard weapons fire if it is same map(s).

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Empyrus

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #17 on: 01 November 2021, 14:16:41 »
Amusingly, the Clans are able to replicate the Yellow Jacket formula- Gauss rifle, 6/9, able to survive a turn or so of return fire- with the Uller-A, just without the flying ability- AND tack on a couple of backup lasers. (To say nothing, of course, of the Donar, which is just sick and wrong on every level.)
I can't help it but wonder if the Kit Fox A is the reason for the Spheroid Gauss Rifle craze. I mean, it explicitly was for the Hollander, so...
I do not like the Kit Fox A at all though. Backup lasers just bring its BV up, while the gun itself draws too much attention to a 'Mech that lacks survivability. (The Kit Fox Prime or D is the way to go.) In this case, the Hawk Moth has better mobility too, as you noted in the article, it can fly over terrain.

Yeah, but he's talking about LRMs when compared to an RAC/5.  Both group their damage into 5-point clusters, LRMs don't jam, and LRMs have the benefit of having another 6 hexes of range over the RAC/5, letting your VTOL stand off more.

I need to learn to read more slowly and carefully....
Yeah, LRM vs RAC, LRMs are better certainly. One reason i've never liked RACs really.

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #18 on: 01 November 2021, 16:05:54 »
No you cannot. Elevation never adds to range.
About levels.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #19 on: 01 November 2021, 16:33:42 »
My wife writes books
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #20 on: 01 November 2021, 22:05:40 »
the Advertisement for Michaelson is well made, you see yellowjackets flying and a glamor shot of explosive pufs around one.

it's  a good ad.  Reminds me of some of the promo materials for the Sgt. York.

Like those promo materials, it glosses over the problems with the design.

The Yellowjacket is the kind of unit you assign to the pilot who knocked up your daughter then refused to accept responsibility for the inevitable outcome of that roofie'd union.

Here's the thing guys: it's slow.  it's slow, and the consequences of losing motive systems on it can be counted thusly: falling damage followed by wreckage.

it's slow, with so much firepower it can't be safely ignored, but unlike a Tank with that Gauss rifle, it can't keep fighting once you've stripped the motive unit...and stripping the motive unit you've got a nice variety of weapons that will do the job-and you likely already had them even if you're running ordinary 3025 units, never mind the peer-era weapons that can drop it or the insane levels of bad luck it will experience if it ends movement within range of light infantry.

not HEAVY infantry, but Light infantry.  Rifle infantry.

the weakest units in the setting.

When you hit the hover mechanism on a hovertank, it drops to the ground, stationary.  This solves its mobility, but still lets you use it as a bunker for a short while, espl. if it's turreted.

you can't do that with a jellowbucket, when a Jellowbucket falls down, it goes 'crash'.  'crash' involves the intersection of an object in an uncontrolled fall to earth, this is termed 'deconstructive lithobraking' by the big-words crowd, but it happens thusly on the table:  You roll crashing damage from whatever elevation you're currently at.

why does this happen? because your magic shield can only take five hits.  The magic shield in question being your rotor, which while it no longer can be stripped in ONE hit, can be stripped by cluster weapons such as LRMs, infantry ground fire, or even weapons with a bonus to hit airborne targets like LBX's.

and your rotor location is 30% of your total hit locations, contains a maximum of 2 points of armor with 3 of internal structure, and each hit reduces your movement from an already sluggish cruise of 6.

which means you're going to want to use that gauss rifle at the gauss rifle's LONG range against peer opponents (forget the Clans, I'm talking 'peer' in terms of 'F' class inner sphere forces.)

why? because going for GOOD shots puts you in range of everything that CAN and likely WILL kill you. (Except SRM's and the occasional cluster of machine-guns or small lasers.)

you can't 'canyon carve' with a Yellowjacket-because flanking means instead of falling to your death, you'll likely run into something and strip your own rotors (thus falling damage AND ramming damage).

"But Cannonshop, what about the speedy variant with the PPC??"

you can get 10/15 at 15 tons with a PPC without an XL engine.

with comparable protection.

The fundamental problem here, is that the YJ is  a 30 ton VTOL, with the suspension factor of a 30 ton VTOL.  this means that, until you get to the very biggest weapons, you can do the same or better with a lighter airframe in terms of both movement, and payload.

The 'best' counter to a Yellowjacket isn't necessarily aerospace fighters, it's a faster VTOL, armed with those 'popgun' weapons the Michaelson rep denigrates so much in the first paragraph of their ad, because a YJ can't hang with even something as light as a Ferret or Marten, never mind the more ubiquitous (and downgraded) H7 or H8, and a Mantis will gleefully kill one of these at half the tonnage.

No clantech needed.

The ideal opponent for the Yellowjacket is a lance of green Urbanmechs on open terrain.  Not the improved ones, but the ones with the AC/10.

It's a vulture, not a hawk.

"But Cannonshop, what about the Arrow IV version?"

Okay, do you have Nukes? (Davy Crockett munitions).  If you don't, you can probably get a better platform for your field artillery that has enough endurance to be useful.  Like an Urbanmech, or generic carrier.

The best that can be said about the Yellowjacket, is that it sold well, but then, popularity is no guarantee of either usefulness nor quality, but instead of the manufacturer's ability to make good use of ignorance and corruption.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #21 on: 02 November 2021, 06:37:44 »
I'd go with a 6/9 movement Arrow IV platform of the Arrow IV Urbie, VTOL or not.  If it's on a VTOL at least you can stay out of range of most weapons that can hurt you, provided the map sheet is big enough.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #22 on: 02 November 2021, 06:55:36 »
...huh?
Sorry, Weirdo.  I was confusing older rules that I was told about by another GM from some years ago about altitude changes help gain range.

Only issue with the unit it maybe off-board possibly, which was complaint we had with the campaign we were doing. It would mean more time spent trying sending a unit try take out the yellow jack which could meant as a mini-game in self if wasn't within couple map sheets where main action was.

Having BMM's Battlefield Support very good thing, which cuts down on tying up game play with supporting units like Yellow Jacket Arrow IV variant when it's in slowing down the game.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #23 on: 02 November 2021, 07:15:47 »
I'd go with a 6/9 movement Arrow IV platform of the Arrow IV Urbie, VTOL or not.  If it's on a VTOL at least you can stay out of range of most weapons that can hurt you, provided the map sheet is big enough.

It also means being able to toddle home for reloads easier than many Arrow platforms- I can't think of any off the top of my head that can reach 6/9 other than this, and of course it avoids being slowed by terrain. I know there's a few 5/8 options like the Chaparral and Naga, and of course you can cram one onto an Omnimech if it has space, but out of the box, this ends up being a unique unit in that regard.

(Having two tons of ammo means both not having to leave the battlefield too soon for those reloads, and of course having a couple of different options for how to make someone miserable.)
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #24 on: 02 November 2021, 08:06:46 »
I note one factor that may have led to it selling, despite the fragility: price. At 1,120,000 C-bills fully-loaded it is the cheapest way to get a relatively mobile Gauss Rifle. Even going by BV, a YJ with a 2/3 pilot (1,312) matches the value of an Uller A (1,310) before you assign a Mechwarrior.

To check this assumption against other units, I went back to a hack of the OG speedy mech hunter. Specifically, a Gauss-armed LTV-4. Crowbarring the new weapon into its turret and deleting the other armament, I get 1,156,250 C-bills [great!] and BV of 1,016 before crew [hmm]. Now, with 6 tons armour this is undeniably more durable... but it's not half as manouverable and not canon. The more modern Regulator is canon, and it should proliferate, but it's twice the price of the YJ with almost as much BV as an Uller A.
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #25 on: 02 November 2021, 08:33:42 »
One thing to remember, when this first came out flak ammo wasn't a thing yet (or it was level 3, I can't remember which). So the slow speed wasn't quite as damning as it is now.

The only time I used it was back then. I kept it at long range taking potshots at 10s, 11s and 12s. It only hit once the entire game, but the other side took an inordinately large number of shots at it (on 11s and 12s). So mission accomplished I guess. A few games later the other side tried to return the favor, but we simply ignored it. Eventually they lost enough units that they needed every hit they could get, so they moved it up. Well, back then hits to the rotor did full damage, and half the hit location table was "Rotor"...
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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #26 on: 02 November 2021, 09:08:07 »
One thing to remember, when this first came out flak ammo wasn't a thing yet (or it was level 3, I can't remember which).

I think it was Level 3.

Personally I think a decent refit for this slow VTOL would be the Extended LRM launcher. Dropping the Gauss Rifle and ammo frees 17 tons, so you could fit an ERLRM-15 in there with four tons of ammo (I think).
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Cannonshop

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #27 on: 02 November 2021, 09:16:55 »
One thing to remember, when this first came out flak ammo wasn't a thing yet (or it was level 3, I can't remember which). So the slow speed wasn't quite as damning as it is now.

The only time I used it was back then. I kept it at long range taking potshots at 10s, 11s and 12s. It only hit once the entire game, but the other side took an inordinately large number of shots at it (on 11s and 12s). So mission accomplished I guess. A few games later the other side tried to return the favor, but we simply ignored it. Eventually they lost enough units that they needed every hit they could get, so they moved it up. Well, back then hits to the rotor did full damage, and half the hit location table was "Rotor"...

when this came out, I was demonstrating how to scythe slow VTOLs out of the sky with ease using pretty much anything that did 5 or more points of damage, because it came out about the same time that BMR did.  it wasn't even remotely viable until the Maxtech rules were incorporated into Total Warfare (The rotor damage reduction was in "Maximum Tech", a book of munchkin options and untested rules culled from Unbound, Mechforce UK and club play here in the U.S., basically codified, but not completed, house rules.)  That book had 'Flak ammo' too (along with Silver Bullet Gauss and a few things that still managed to fail the cut for tournament rules with the current ruleset).

the YJ became remotely viable with the rotor damage reduction, which also made the minimum useful speed for a VTOL if you actually want one that works 8/12 where it had been 10/15 before.

IOW it's still a bad design, it's just not an automatic liability now, as opposed to what it was at the initial publication of TRO 3058 (the first full publication of the Yellowjacket's stats since the contest in the original run of Shrapnel that spawned it.)

The problem with assault VTOLs that doesn't happen with Assault Tanks or Assault (maximum weight) Hovers, or assault 'mechs, is that they really don't have a purpose that isn't filled by something smaller, better.  With Assault Tanks or Max Weight hovercraft, you can still 'bunker', with 'mechs, you're just insanely difficult to kill and can keep moving with whole sections shot off (if you didn't opt for the IS XL or XXL engine option at the dealership).

VTOLs are different.  It begins with the percentage of your mass you have to devote to engine for your movement (Suspension factors change by unit mass with VTOLs), which means that to get a decent MP (Needed for climbing, turning, and linear movement) you have to devote a higer PERCENTAGE of mass, not just more mass, but more on top of more, than on a lighter design.

A Hawk-Moth at 30 tons would be moving slower for the same payload at 30 tons-to include the same mass of armor.

You can't build a Yellowjacket smaller, because 30 tons IS as small as you can put a 15 ton gauss rifle with 1 ton of ammo-it just won't fit, but that's also why you're at 6/9-to go 7/11 you have to put in a smaller gun on the same type of engine.  you're very close to the bottom of what you can build without buying a Fusion or XL fusion (or XXL fusion).  50% of your total mass is weapon, not including the ammo-the entire rest of the airfame is 14 tons, and the engine is a big chunk of that (the armor's the other big chunk.)

which is great...if you're a 'mech.  There are plenty of viable 'mechs with those sort of numbers, but they don't crash violently if they're immobilized, and require very specific conditions to skid, where a VTOL will sideslip on any turn during flank if you don't roll well on your PSR.

also, 'mechs can survive losing whole sections.  VTOLs being VTOLs, can not, and mister rotor IS a section, and there's no ejection seat, so you lose the pilot too.

which means in campaign, he's not going to learn from the mistake, he's going home in a box. (or a jar, or an empty box full of good wishes for his next of kin.)

reason? take a fan, now throw an uncooked sausage through it.  Taht's what happens when you hit the ejection seat on a helicopter.

only with more blood and bone bits.

(hmm, hungry now. sausage lasagna... we can watch "Sphere's sickest autopsies" while we eat on pay-per-view holo.)

alright.

so, these are your basic issues, including the issue that generated it in the first place (well, I don't have THAT issue anymore).  The point is, the Yellowjacket's performance went from being "Liability you use to downgrade your force so that you have a challenge against the greenhorn who brought his Klanner Kustom Star to the table on saturday, to being something that actually has some value if you're up against a greenie using intro-tech and you want the fight to be a little more balanced so he doesn't quit the hobby out of frustration and inability to win battles. 

It's still, in essence, a liability, but it's not an utter and complete liability.

which is what it was when it rolled out to players on the first day.
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Empyrus

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #28 on: 02 November 2021, 09:17:29 »
I think it was Level 3.

Personally I think a decent refit for this slow VTOL would be the Extended LRM launcher. Dropping the Gauss Rifle and ammo frees 17 tons, so you could fit an ERLRM-15 in there with four tons of ammo (I think).
3 tons of ammo, but ELRM lacks damage concentration of the Gauss rifle.
ELRM is a good fit for the Warrior that is just a long range plinker. Not so sure about the Yellow Jacket.
The ideal upgrade would be Clan-spec Gauss Rifle and use the freed mass for greater speed.

Cannonshop

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Re: VotW: Yellow Jacket
« Reply #29 on: 02 November 2021, 10:06:48 »
3 tons of ammo, but ELRM lacks damage concentration of the Gauss rifle.
ELRM is a good fit for the Warrior that is just a long range plinker. Not so sure about the Yellow Jacket.
The ideal upgrade would be Clan-spec Gauss Rifle and use the freed mass for greater speed.

Not sure you can get enough with the speed, not without also changing the engine type and going even MORE expensive.  (by comparison, for Clantech, you get better performance from a DONAR and no ammo dependency, thus an existing design that already outperforms the custom, while being lighter.)

The central problem the YJ has, is its size.  That 30 ton mass means having the worst suspension factor available, you end up having to make it grossly more expensive to get the performance curve you're looking for, or not getting the performance you're looking for.

The YJ is, at its base, a demonstration that you CAN do something, the rules allow it, but it's not a good idea to do it (ad copy aside).

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