Author Topic: Naval wargaming? (Read 51841 times)

JadeHellbringer · « **Reply #30 on:** 03 February 2011, 17:02:38 »

Fighting Steel was great, and horrible- all at once. It was very repetitive, the lack of a real campaign mode was crippling, and the fact that it omitted major components of the battles- submarines, aircraft, LAND- was baffling. But, it looked pretty good, played decently, and was a big step above anything else out there for it's (very limited) genre. If I could get it to work on Windows 7, I'd still play it. The unofficial expansion made it a much better game- and made it possible to play as the Germans without wanting to pull ones' hair out.

worktroll · « **Reply #31 on:** 03 February 2011, 19:20:28 »

Quote from: Wereferret on 03 February 2011, 14:21:41

Basically we got to play a big game of Harpoon with real ships and helicopters.

[notworthy]

(By the way ... who won?)

W.

Prillotashekta · « **Reply #32 on:** 03 February 2011, 19:22:35 »

Quote from: JadeHellbringer on 03 February 2011, 17:02:38

If I could get it to work on Windows 7, I'd still play it. The unofficial expansion made it a much better game- and made it possible to play as the Germans without wanting to pull ones' hair out.

How old is it? You might be able to get it to run via DOSbox

GreyWolfActual · « **Reply #33 on:** 03 February 2011, 20:13:05 »

I just installed DOSBox today to run Pacific War: The Matrix Edition. That seems to be quite the game for refighting the Pacific.

Arvanna · « **Reply #34 on:** 03 February 2011, 21:26:46 »

Quote from: 3rdCrucisLancers on 03 February 2011, 00:03:47

That's...a remarkable result, given that a single hit from Rodney's 16" guns left Bismarck virtually incapable of fighting at all.

Are you referring to the hit to the main gunnery director? Heck any ship taking a hit to that from any sizable shell is going to be in trouble. As for the Rodney she was shadowing me and as soon as I hit some fog and she had to close in to stay in contact I went to flank and turned into her forcing a short range and brief engagement that started with Bismark to her aft, same tactic I used to get rid of those pesky cruisers, sometimes they got away but if I got in a couple hits before they could break contact and slow them down they were dead, after all even her secondary guns were a serious threat to those thin skinned cruisers.

Renown was the most ironic because she intercepted me short of Brest and it turned into a running chase so it was my 4 aft 15 inchers (the only ones I had left) versus her forward 15's and once again that thin upper deck armor failed to stop a round getting at one of her magazines.

3rdCrucisLancers · « **Reply #35 on:** 03 February 2011, 21:33:45 »

Quote from: Arvanna on 03 February 2011, 21:26:46

Are you referring to the hit to the main gunnery director?

The first hit Rodney scored on Bismarck destroyed A turret and left B turret inoperable.

Force of Nature · « **Reply #36 on:** 03 February 2011, 23:28:29 »

Wooden Ships and Iron Men - Avalon Hill
Jutland - Avalon Hill
Russo - Japan War - Avalanche Press - never played unfortunately
Fire when Ready - Microgame
Command at Sea - Microgame

Brawling Battleships - card game - enjoyable

Under Both Flags - Civil War Ironclads of which I have nearly all of them that were actually made in 1/600th scale.

I am also in the process of making my own Age of Sail miniature wargame.

Force

Wereferret · « **Reply #37 on:** 04 February 2011, 00:43:19 »

Quote

What ship was that?

USCGC MELLON (WHEC 717), a high endurance cutter out of Seattle, WA:

3rdCrucisLancers · « **Reply #38 on:** 04 February 2011, 00:54:32 »

Are the harpoons in case of rumrunners?

Challenger · « **Reply #39 on:** 04 February 2011, 12:05:13 »

Quote from: Stormlion1 on 03 February 2011, 00:19:15

Theres also a olf computer game called Fighting Steel, WW-Iand early WW-II warships, no carriers or subs or airpower, nothing but guns, big guns, bigger guns, and maybe a few torpedoes. Had downloads for later warships too.

I still have a copy of that game, trying to figure out how to make it run on windows 7 or vista

Challenger

Challenger · « **Reply #40 on:** 04 February 2011, 12:11:16 »

Quote from: Arvanna on 03 February 2011, 21:26:46

Are you referring to the hit to the main gunnery director? Heck any ship taking a hit to that from any sizable shell is going to be in trouble. As for the Rodney she was shadowing me and as soon as I hit some fog and she had to close in to stay in contact I went to flank and turned into her forcing a short range and brief engagement that started with Bismark to her aft, same tactic I used to get rid of those pesky cruisers, sometimes they got away but if I got in a couple hits before they could break contact and slow them down they were dead, after all even her secondary guns were a serious threat to those thin skinned cruisers.

Renown was the most ironic because she intercepted me short of Brest and it turned into a running chase so it was my 4 aft 15 inchers (the only ones I had left) versus her forward 15's and once again that thin upper deck armor failed to stop a round getting at one of her magazines.

I must admit I always wondered if Bismark wasn't massively overrated.

Ok for sure her armor layout was good and her sub division superb. But 14-16inch shells still put her out of action quite quickly.

Likewise her firepower was hardly stella, same as an Revenge or Queen Elizabeth. As far as I can see had she tried a straight engagement she would have had a hard fight against any of the RN battleships.

Stategicaly though I see why sinking her was a major concern for the RN. With Bismark on the high sea no convoy without a heavy escort was safe and even the heavy escorts had reason to worry.

Challenger

3rdCrucisLancers · « **Reply #41 on:** 04 February 2011, 12:18:02 »

Her above-water armor layout was actually very poor. The main armor deck was located BELOW her sensitive electronics and command and control systems, so that they were quickly shredded by shellfire. Additionally, despite her very thick armor on the conning tower and turrets, both were easily penetrated by 14" and 16" shells at ranges that were theoretically in the immunity zone; one 16" shell from Rodney actually went through the front and out the back of a main gun turret, and a 14" shell from KGV penetrated the conning tower armor at nearly 20,000 yards range, where it should have bounced off.

ANS Kamas P81 · « **Reply #42 on:** 04 February 2011, 12:21:42 »

Bismarck scores only above the Veneto according to Combined Fleet's BB challenge. The worst armor score, and tied for worst fire control, hurt her pretty bad in the scoring. It's an interesting read, and takes into account a lot of unquantifiable factors such as seakeeping, tradeoffs to fulfill design requirements (like KGV's bow design) though I've no idea how solid or accurate it is.

At the very least, it's worthy of debate!

wasp · « **Reply #43 on:** 04 February 2011, 13:09:43 »

I have played a bunch of WAS. I don't think that it is that horrible as long as you go into it expecting a more arcade type experience instead of the simulation experience. Most of the miniatures are good looking and as folks have pointed out they are good for some othe games.

Wasp

Arvanna · « **Reply #44 on:** 04 February 2011, 17:25:31 »

I have to agree that I have for awhile been of the opinion that the Bismark was a tad over billed. Her first engagement went well with first Hood never haven gotten the planned improvements to her upper deck armor, second POW still suffering from numerous mechanical issues and the Brit's mistaking the Prince Eugen for Bismark. Still it only took one 14 inch shell to penetrate one of her fuel tanks and any hopes of a run into the mid Atlantic was gone.

Stormlion1 · « **Reply #45 on:** 04 February 2011, 22:50:13 »

Quote from: Challenger on 04 February 2011, 12:05:13

I still have a copy of that game, trying to figure out how to make it run on windows 7 or vista

Challenger

I still play it on occasion on a old lap top, what I'll do when it finally gives up the ghost is unknown. I enjoy the game mostly for fighting out WW-I battles more than the WW-II ones myself.

MadCatBob · « **Reply #46 on:** 05 February 2011, 08:58:51 »

I don't see very many naval wargaming rules sets,and the only one I have is Heart of Oak(http://theminiaturespage.com/rules/nap/heartofoak.html). Other than the little Pirates of the Spanish Main minis, I don't know of any miniatures line for sail-era warships.

Weirdo · « **Reply #47 on:** 07 February 2011, 00:28:43 »

I think GHQ sells a line of Napoleonic sailships...

wackrabbit · « **Reply #48 on:** 07 February 2011, 05:15:25 »

I do a fair amoutn of naval gaming.

ACW/Ironclads - Smoke on the Water.

Napoleonic Naval - Trafalgar (the only GW ruleset I feel is worth looking at). I also have ~~Iron Balls and Fleshy Pulp~~, er... Wooden Ships and Iron Men

WWII - my own ruleset, Rain of Steel, also Command at Sea

Weirdo · « **Reply #49 on:** 28 February 2011, 14:33:11 »

So, having dug up the rulebook, and having my ADD-addled mind focused on it at the moment, I'm looking at putting a real effort into building up more of my Northern Fleet collection, as well as building an OPFOR or two. Aside from the obvious US choice for Cold War fights, what other navies might be worth looking into? I'm considering the Royal Navy or JMSDF, but are there other navies that might be interesting to play, even if only in smaller fights?

Doug Glendower · « **Reply #50 on:** 28 February 2011, 15:12:28 »

Quote from: Wereferret on 04 February 2011, 00:43:19

USCGC MELLON (WHEC 717), a high endurance cutter out of Seattle, WA:

Pretty ship.

Last naval game I played was a white-board excersise game called "Ships at War", being developed by some cats I hung out with in the early 90s. Couldn't sell it. Table-based, percentage abstraction game. Great for small five-ship or less squadron games, anything more (or aircraft), the game got horrible.

worktroll · « **Reply #51 on:** 28 February 2011, 16:35:59 »

Quote from: Weirdo on 28 February 2011, 14:33:11

So, having dug up the rulebook, and having my ADD-addled mind focused on it at the moment, I'm looking at putting a real effort into building up more of my Northern Fleet collection, as well as building an OPFOR or two. Aside from the obvious US choice for Cold War fights, what other navies might be worth looking into? I'm considering the Royal Navy or JMSDF, but are there other navies that might be interesting to play, even if only in smaller fights?

What period? Up until the 70s, the Aussies had a two-carrier fleet, supported by Oberon-class hunter-killers, that might have made an interesting opfor - but not for the Northern Fleet.

By the way, to paraphrase the old saw, how can you tell which of your collection belong to the Northern Fleet? Easy - they're the ones that glow in the dark ;D

W.

Ruger · « **Reply #52 on:** 28 February 2011, 19:31:41 »

Quote from: worktroll on 28 February 2011, 16:35:59

What period? Up until the 70s, the Aussies had a two-carrier fleet, supported by Oberon-class hunter-killers, that might have made an interesting opfor - but not for the Northern Fleet.

By the way, to paraphrase the old saw, how can you tell which of your collection belong to the Northern Fleet? Easy - they're the ones that glow in the dark ;D

W.

Yeah, it really depends on the period...if you want navies with carriers, there's also the French, Canadians (for a while), Brazil, Argentina, and India...and WW1 and WW2 era warfare adds many other possibilities, especially if you lean to battleships...

Ruger

worktroll · « **Reply #53 on:** 28 February 2011, 19:45:52 »

USSR Northern Fleet more or less limits it to 1950s+ ... got your Kirovs, Weirdo?

Ruger · « **Reply #54 on:** 28 February 2011, 19:54:29 »

Quote from: worktroll on 28 February 2011, 19:45:52

USSR Northern Fleet more or less limits it to 1950s+ ... got your Kirovs, Weirdo?

Well, the 1950's would allow for the following navies with carriers:

USA
UK
France
Canada
Australia
Netherlands
India

And 1960 adds Brazil...

Ruger

3rdCrucisLancers · « **Reply #55 on:** 28 February 2011, 21:23:17 »

Quote from: worktroll on 28 February 2011, 19:45:52

USSR Northern Fleet more or less limits it to 1950s+ ... got your Kirovs, Weirdo?

Well, the Red Banner Northern Fleet did put in a weak showing in WWII...and if you like, you can always pit Marat against VÃ¤inÃ¤mÃ¶inen and Ilmarinen in the Winter War, or an Anglo-Russian convoy force against Tirpitz, or the never-finished Sovietsky Soyuz against Yamato for the Pacific.

As a weird side note, I own a RBNF sailor's cap from the 1980s or so.

Weirdo · « **Reply #56 on:** 28 February 2011, 21:48:35 »

Definitely aiming for relatively modern times, 90s at least. (For the sake of the Northern fleet, I'm going for their on-paper strength.)

The posession of a carrier isn't really a factor for me, especially since I'm going to focus on ship-to-ship combat, not a question of who can call in an airstrike first. (Not to say I'll never play such games...) This will be played with the Shipwreck ruleset, unless anyone wants to introduce me to another good rulebook that's less detailed than Harpoon.

No Kirov yet, though I do plan on ordering one soon, as well as a Kuznetsov. Found a site that puts out a good one in 1/2400, which is my chosen scale.

Quote from: 3rdCrucisLancers on 28 February 2011, 21:23:17

As a weird side note, I own a RBNF sailor's cap from the 1980s or so.

That...is awesome.

VF1LAM · « **Reply #57 on:** 01 March 2011, 19:53:25 »

@Arvanna: There was another old-school '80s computer game called Ancient Art of War at Sea by Broderbund Software. It dealt with naval combat from the 1500s to the 1800s. You could play historical campaigns like the Spanish Armada battle, or John Paul Jones during the American Revolution. You could also construct your own scenarios.

I also liked another '80s game, specifically Strike Fleet by Lucasfilm Games, which was more modern and dealt with naval combat in the modern era: Falkland Islands war, U.S.S. Stark in the Persian Gulf, or possible scenarios for World War III [because the Soviet Union still existed at that time].

I wonder if they'll ever do remakes of these old-school classics. ::)

Doug Glendower · « **Reply #58 on:** 03 March 2011, 14:20:53 »

Strike Fleet was pretty good. Not "Red Storm" quality, but pretty good.

Blacknova · « **Reply #59 on:** 03 March 2011, 14:52:41 »

Just got my box set for Modern Naval Conflicts, looks good on first inspection.