"C" Refit Rules

[TigerShark]

Is there any place where "C" refit rules are discussed in the source books? I am referring to Clan refits of Inner Sphere units.

[snewsom2997]

Don't quote me, but wasn't that in some of the Grey Death Legion Material.

[guardiandashi]

I don't think it was in the grey death legion material

I want to say it was a 1 line or para graph in something like tro3055 or one of the main books that basically said make them by pulling the is weapons and replace them with the clan equivalant  like take the base archer and pull the 2 lrm 20's and 4 medium lasers, replace the mediums with er's, and the lrm 20's with clan lrm 20's

the problem is most of those upgrades as listed is they tend to end up seriously under weight

like the rifleman (C) ends up with 2 er large lasers @ 4 tons ea, 2 ultra or lb-5x autocannons @ 7 tons each, and 2 medium lasers, so that version would be at least 4 tons light

[White_Knight]

Refitting IS mechs with Clan gear would presumably use the standard refit rules as laid out in Strategic Operations, the biggest difficulty (Omnis excepted) would be the +4 modifier for mixing Clan and IS gear.

[Orion]

I don't think it was in the grey death legion material

I want to say it was a 1 line or para graph in something like tro3055 or one of the main books that basically said make them by pulling the is weapons and replace them with the clan equivalant  like take the base archer and pull the 2 lrm 20's and 4 medium lasers, replace the mediums with er's, and the lrm 20's with clan lrm 20's

the problem is most of those upgrades as listed is they tend to end up seriously under weight

like the rifleman (C) ends up with 2 er large lasers @ 4 tons ea, 2 ultra or lb-5x autocannons @ 7 tons each, and 2 medium lasers, so that version would be at least 4 tons light

I've never seen their being underweight as a problem.  From an in-universe point of view, many would have done just this and been happy, especially as it would likely have given them a km/hr or two better speed, improved the jump distance by 10m, or some other change that is too small to register in the abstract rules.  Just because a chassis can carry 60 tons does not mean it has to do so.

[guardiandashi]

except that at the time that was out there was a rule in effect that any unit that was underweight was ILLEGAL! (with extra !!'s )

[imperator]

Only in tournaments.  Their have been a lot of stuff in scenario books that you can't use in tournaments.  What used to be called level 3 stuff. An Example of this is the Virtual Reality Piloting Pod or the old DNI from "Unbound"

[glitterboy2098]

frankly, i'd imagine most clans just used the mech's "as is", since refitting is a waste of resources for what are basically 4th line units. certainly they have enough unmodified SLDF mechs in their 2nd line and solhama forces that they could supply munitions to IS built units.

[ShadowRaven]

mixed tech was never tournament legal anyway, so being under weight for scenarios wasn't a problem. Several of the clan invasion era sourcebooks featured refit mechs that didn't hit their full tonnage.

[TigerShark]

Ok, all the debating aside, does anyone have actual page numbers and references?

[Hellraiser]

The original source was "The Battle for Twycross" scenario book.

Is there something specific your looking for ?

[TigerShark]

The original source was "The Battle for Twycross" scenario book.

Is there something specific your looking for ?

Yes, but that book apparently doesn't have it. I am guessing there are no "rules" for (C) refits of Inner Sphere 'Mechs. In Twycross, they simply switched out any Inner Sphere weaponry for Clan, leaving the chassis as-is.

My specific question would be geared toward the writers at this point.

[Lorcan Nagle]

The C refit mechs appear in Twycross, but there was never a specific rule set to cover refitting Inner Sphere mechs to Clan spec beyond the standard refit/upgrade rules.

[TigerShark]

The C refit mechs appear in Twycross, but there was never a specific rule set to cover refitting Inner Sphere mechs to Clan spec beyond the standard refit/upgrade rules.

My question is whether engine swaps may be done in a (C) upgrade, or if it would be called a "IIC" at that point.

[Lorcan Nagle]

At the end of the day it's only a name, so Standard Rule 1 would apply.

[Adgar76]

AFAIK, there are no specific rules for what is a (C) refit and what is not. However, none of the canon (C) refits that appear inTwycross sport engine swaps; in fact, most (but not all) seem to be very simple class A or B modifications of their parent model. Make of that what you will.

[Hellraiser]

My question is whether engine swaps may be done in a (C) upgrade, or if it would be called a "IIC" at that point.

No, they are strictly weapon swaps, sometimes not even ALL the weapons.
There are all IS 3025 engines, no added Heatsinks, no armor changes, just weapon swaps.
As mentioned they are all A/B class by Strat Ops standards.

[TigerShark]

I'm specifically thinking of vehicles and Clan swaps for those. An example below:

Clan Blood Spirit pulls a Star's worth of Star League era vehicles from their Brian Caches. They are the classic SLDF designs, but a few are Royals and sport expensive XL Engines.

Would Clan Blood Spirit remove the XL Engine for use in 'Mech repairs, replacing it with a Standard Fusion, ICE or Fuel Cell? Or would they keep the League-era vehicle intact 100% of the time?

[Hellraiser]

Keep it intact.   The engine won't likely fit in most mechs anyway.
Its a vehicle, use it quickly, as is, till its destroyed, & then replace it with a new build.


The "c" class mechs were captured IS machines used in the IS.
Basically the Falcons were overrunning FC-RCT's and had a lot of salvage.
They didn't use advanced repair facilities but instead in the field just did some weapon swaps to from spare parts to upgrade the firepower some.

[StoneRhino]

I am not entirely sure if what you are asking is answered by the original TRO:3050. It was near the back of the book where it mentioned that the clans did field captured IS mechs and refitted them with clan weapons.

I personally do not believe that the modded units would be considered IICs. TRO:3055 has several IIC mechs in it, none of them are physically identical to the IS version. There are clear resemblances, but the IIC designs are produced in a factory off of a plan that is an upgraded version of the IS original. The Warhammer IIC for example does have a resemblance to the original 3025 warhammer, but there is a tonnage difference of 10 tons(IIRC). The exterior looks similar, but the IIC is much broader, though the core concept of the mech is still there, twin PPCs with a missile launcher on the side.

A clan field refit of a captured IS mech and calling it a IIC is as off the mark as putting  IS weapons on a clan mech and saying it is an IS mech. There are clan refits of captured IS mechs, or mothballed exodus SL mechs that just have new gear on it, and then there are new mechs that are based upon classic IS mechs, but produced 100% by the clans.


Someone asked why the clans would bother with refitting IS designs making what is effectively a 4th line mech. If you were looking at limited mech production, a long transit time, with a long campaign ahead of you, would you want to pick up the weapons of your enemy along with their amunition? Would you see if their food is something you can stomach? Would you look for resources that they stashed away? If you had units of theirs that could be repaired and armed with your superior weapons, would you bother with it or toss them away? I am sure even the proudest of the clammers would rather be piloting an IS design with clan weapons instead of riding the bench or being handed a rifle. If anything you can take a IIC design from your second line units and give it to the first line, then give the "C" to the 2nd line unit to replace the mech you took. It is a bump down, but its still being given a chance to fight.

[TigerShark]

Herb answered it in the Ask the Developers section.

[Sir Chaos]

At the end of the day it's only a name, so Standard Rule 1 would apply.

Was that "Don´t talk about the Fight Club", or "Do not act incautiously around wrinkly bald smiling old men"?

[Sami Jumppanen]

Was that "Don´t talk about the Fight Club", or "Do not act incautiously around wrinkly bald smiling old men"?

Unless you travel in a dropship with a glass roof and all that wrinkly old man has is a wheelchair to sit on. At that point you are dead and no amount of caution is going to save you.

[Frabby]

Herb answered it in the Ask the Developers section.

(link)
Herb said:

At whatever point the Clans designate them to be so. The (C) models are really supposed to be more of a mid-stage upgrade to older chassis, or possibly even field-grade refits, while the IICs are completely factory built for production.

Actually, there is no conclusive answer to the question if the Clans themselves use the IIC designation. I tried to raise the topic in this thread, but the result remains inconclusive.

I'd also like to point your attention to the Sarna article about the IIC concept. In short, (C) 'Mechs are field refits with Clantech while IIC 'Mechs are designed with ClanTech from the ground up.

[TigerShark]

I asked this question because my campaign has a modified version of the refit rules:

Wars of Reaving: Strategic Spending

I didn't make them exactly like StratOps (for campaign and balance reasons), but I think I captured the gist of the (C) and IIC concept. Thanks for your input everyone!

[Matti]

My question is whether engine swaps may be done in a (C) upgrade, or if it would be called a "IIC" at that point.

Engine change doesn't transform 45 ton Phoenix Hawk to 85 ton Phoenix Hawk IIC

[JadeHellbringer]

Engine change doesn't transform 45 ton Phoenix Hawk to 85 ton Phoenix Hawk IIC

Neither does common sense. Welcome to Clan Steel Viper Mech designing 101.  ;D

[TigerShark]

I've always thought some of the IS vees with XL Engines could use a Fuel Cell to save cost. It makes sense for something like the Alacorn or Von Luckner to have their XL stripped out and used for 'Mech repair. The vehicle would be powered by a cheaper, easier-to-maintain Fuel Cell or ICE.

That seems very "Clan" to me.

[Alexander Knight]

As a general rule, a (C) design pulled autocannons and missile systems and replaced them with Clan versions.  No heat sinks, no electronics, no CASE..generally no energy weapons.

[gooseman]

I've always thought some of the IS vees with XL Engines could use a Fuel Cell to save cost. It makes sense for something like the Alacorn or Von Luckner to have their XL stripped out and used for 'Mech repair. The vehicle would be powered by a cheaper, easier-to-maintain Fuel Cell or ICE.

That seems very "Clan" to me.

Except I seem to remember some sort of recent ruling about that sort of swap not being allowed anymore. Seems like it was during a discussion regarding the ComGuard's Clanbuster refits.

[TigerShark]

As a general rule, a (C) design pulled autocannons and missile systems and replaced them with Clan versions.  No heat sinks, no electronics, no CASE..generally no energy weapons.

You mean aside from the Warhammer C's twin Large Pulse Lasers? :)

[gooseman]

You mean aside from the Warhammer C's twin Large Pulse Lasers? :)

Yes, 'generally' implies an exception.

[TigerShark]

Yes, 'generally' implies an exception.

There are only a handful of (C) designs and a few of them replace lasers. There's no evidence to back that assumption.

[Alexander Knight]

There are only a handful of (C) designs and a few of them replace lasers. There's no evidence to back that assumption.

Marauder C -- retains Inner Sphere Medium Lasers
Warhammer C -- retains Inner Sphere Machine Guns
Atlas C -- retains Inner sphere Medium Lasers

[gooseman]

There are only a handful of (C) designs and a few of them replace lasers. There's no evidence to back that assumption.

Let's see: Per FASA 1649, Record Sheets, Volume 3, Heavy Mechs:

Only the Marauders ML's remain unchanged, you are correct.

Didn't look at the Assault 'Mechs.... But Alexander caught them.

Warhammer MG's any evidence they are one tech base or the other? Weights aren't listed in FASA1649

[Wolf72]

Last time I looked at the fluff on Sarna, it said the MG's were Inner Sphere models ... not that it would matter to much, you could as the BV is the same.  (re-read post, I must have blinked and saw ML's not MG's)

I always hoped the Clans would have had some Awesomes to field refit ... 3 P LL and and ER SL would be pretty nice on the 8Q, even with the SHS.

[TigerShark]

Marauder C -- retains Inner Sphere Medium Lasers
Warhammer C -- retains Inner Sphere Machine Guns
Atlas C -- retains Inner sphere Medium Lasers

Re-read his post.

[FedComGirl]

Except I seem to remember some sort of recent ruling about that sort of swap not being allowed anymore. Seems like it was during a discussion regarding the ComGuard's Clanbuster refits.

They're still allowed but there's a lot of conditions placed on it to avoid people cheating on engine costs. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't know why TPTB just don't say the cost of the engine is always going to by by weight even if you purchase a lighter engine of the same size because the cost of moving the heat sinks around and the hook ups and what not will use up any savings you might have had with the lighter engine.



I think the C refits just replaced IS weapons with Clan the closest weapon match that wouldn't overburden the mechs heat sinks.  A Clan LPL is equal to an IS PPC in terms of heat and damage. A Clan ER Medium Laser though generates more heat than the IS version.

[nckestrel]

Re-read his post.

He said generally.
You listed one exception.
He said one exception is "allowed" in a generally and somebody provided three examples of where lasers were not changed.

So, so far, we have three examples that follow the generally and one exception?
Though I'm guessing the Imp C and/or Shogun C break that as well. 
And doesn't the Thunderbolt C swap the large laser?

[Maingunnery]

The underweight 'C' refits don't make sense to me, they are canon, but still...... I would have preferred if during the weapon swaps that they added single heatsinks to keep the switched tonnage (in each location) the same. This would means that an IS PPC could be replaced by a Clan LPL+SHS.

[JadeHellbringer]

Note that the 'C' refits don't always follow these rules- the Champion and Battlemaster both got 'C' refits that end up being pretty awesome Mechs (the Battlemaster-C may be one of the games best assault Mechs in fact), but have toys like double heat sinks, Clan internal components, and the like. Whereas the Warhammer, Victor, etc. were refitted isorla Mechs, the Battlemaster is even new construction (not sure on the Champion). And yet, still a 'C' design, not a 'IIC' design. Oh, and then there's the Marauder II-C, the Clan-tech version of the Marauder II that the Dragoons used to use, totally blowing any semblance of rules on building Clan refit Mechs out of the water.



Welcome to a world without rules. ;)

[TigerShark]

He said generally.
You listed one exception.
He said one exception is "allowed" in a generally and somebody provided three examples of where lasers were not changed.

So, so far, we have three examples that follow the generally and one exception?
Though I'm guessing the Imp C and/or Shogun C break that as well. 
And doesn't the Thunderbolt C swap the large laser?

Archer C - Clan ER Medium Lasers
Marauder - Clan Large Pulse Lasers
Rifleman C - Clan Large Pulse Lasers
Shadow Hawk C - Clan ER Medium Laser
Thunderbolt C - Clan Large Pulse Laser
Warhammer C - Clan Large Pulse Laser