’Mech of the Week: Raider and Raider Mk II

[Liam's Ghost]

The what now? ICE T-Bolt?

I assume he's referring to the ICE thunderbolt that appeared in a fan TRO a bit back (though that was actually Canopean).

[Liam's Ghost]

And hey, while I'm here, thought I'd mention that ICE powered mechs don't generate heat from ground movement. So... maybe that helps a little?

Now I must go, my cultists require a fuel cell powered Raider Mk III.

[A. Lurker]

And hey, while I'm here, thought I'd mention that ICE powered mechs don't generate heat from ground movement. So... maybe that helps a little?

Now I must go, my cultists require a fuel cell powered Raider Mk III.

As I believe I've already mentioned, that holds true for ICE-powered IndustrialMechs. BattleMechs with non-fusion engines including ICE explicitly build up movement heat as normal.

So, yeah; that's one area in which a "mere" armed IndustrialMech would have a small advantage.

[marauder648]

I assume he's referring to the ICE thunderbolt that appeared in a fan TRO a bit back (though that was actually Canopean).

Ahh yes sorry forgot that was a fan TRO not a canon one (but it was good enough to be a canon one if ya ask me :p)

[Pa Weasley]

And hey, while I'm here, thought I'd mention that ICE powered mechs don't generate heat from ground movement. So... maybe that helps a little?

Now I must go, my cultists require a fuel cell powered Raider Mk III.

ICE powered IndustrialMechs don't generate movement heat. BattleMechs on the other hand, I give you TacOps p. 308

• Non-fusion-powered BattleMechs generate heat in the same manner as BattleMechs (including heat for Walking and Running movement);
ICE-powered ‘Mechs must check for heat-induced explosions (see p. 160, TW).

[Liam's Ghost]

ICE powered IndustrialMechs don't generate movement heat. BattleMechs on the other hand, I give you TacOps p. 308

Oh, wow, that both sucks and makes no sense.

[A. Lurker]

Oh, wow, that both sucks and makes no sense.

I imagine it's because IndustrialMechs just aren't built to combat spec. BattleMechs can't shed heat quite as easily because they're all vacuum-tight and protected against battle damage to the best of their ability even underneath the armor while IMs have looser tolerances and frequently lack even what environmental sealing they can optionally have. So basically they don't build up the one or two points for movement (plus the occasional one for getting up after falling down, I imagine) because they just "breathe" more easily.

That only works for IndustrialMechs with internal combustion and, I hear, fuel cell engines, though. Fission- and fusion-powered ones build up movement heat just like BattleMechs; of course, those then also have the built-in heat sinks to cope.

[SteelRaven]

Has anyone tried swapping out the engine?

[Alanith]

Has anyone tried swapping out the engine?

I tried swapping it for a fusion engine last night, and ended up with something like twelve spare tons of space. Problem is that might actually make it something that isn't terrible for everyone involved.

Edit: Actually it's ten and a half tons. Honestly I'd be tempted to shove as many small lasers on there as would fit myself in a hypothetical "Raider III, now with FUSION", since they seem to be used for demolition in a industrial capacity, and wouldn't raise quite as many eyebrows as something like a PPC or Large Laser.

[UnLimiTeD]

Easy solution, give it a second saw and stock up on MRM launchers.  O0

[nckestrel]

Alpha Strike S/M for Raider should be 0*.  Alpha Strike S/M/L for Raider Mk II should be 0*.  Changes have been entered, card should update within 24 hours.

[SteelRaven]

I tried swapping it for a fusion engine last night, and ended up with something like twelve spare tons of space. Problem is that might actually make it something that isn't terrible for everyone involved.

Just wanted to check considering the fluff stated the design was originally attended to be a actual battlemech but what we ended up with was much more entertaining  ;D

[Alanith]

Just wanted to check considering the fluff stated the design was originally attended to be a actual battlemech but what we ended up with was much more entertaining  ;D

Well a straight swap still gives you a 50 tonner that moves at 4/6, it's still not wondrously great, but its not Raider level "Wat" either.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Edit: Actually it's ten and a half tons.

Does it have the crit-spaces for that many rocket launchers?

[smdvogrin]

Actually, if you swap the engine, you can equip both model's weapons - the RAC/2 and the MRM-10, and get one point short of max armor.  It feels like the original intended design.  (Especially since a fusion engine that size is left with 2 of it's free heat sinks left outside - corresponds well with the heat sinks on the actual design.)

It's still bad at that point - spending 7 tons on the Dual Saw pretty much ensures that - but it feels much more like a "local resources trooper" than a "horrific waste of research funding".

[glitterboy2098]

I tried swapping it for a fusion engine last night, and ended up with something like twelve spare tons of space. Problem is that might actually make it something that isn't terrible for everyone involved.

Edit: Actually it's ten and a half tons. Honestly I'd be tempted to shove as many small lasers on there as would fit myself in a hypothetical "Raider III, now with FUSION", since they seem to be used for demolition in a industrial capacity, and wouldn't raise quite as many eyebrows as something like a PPC or Large Laser.

if you swap for a near 1 to 1 tonnage of engine, you get a 5/8 with a few spare tons.. or a 6/9 that needs to shave a ton or so off somewhere.

at least if my reverse engineering on MegaMekLab was right.

[Heretic]

So this is what happens when you let a power hungry, wannabe entrepreneur build a 'Mech. Huh. When I first saw it in the Era Digest, I initially thought this was some backwater Periphery design that those ~~~coo-ray-zee Taurians~~~ cooked up after cobbling together the Toro with what little scraps remained. Now I'm wondering what on earth Jacob Bannson(sp?) was smoking and if he could hook me up with some of it because this thing needs a bit of tweaking. And by a bit I of course mean a freaking lot. More on that later.

To me, this seems like it's built for the sheer fear factor than to actually deal damage. Those saws aren't gonna do any real damage unless it's against the head, but the view from the cockpit of the 'Mech on the other end will totally scare the crap outta ya. Just imagine, if for but a single moment, you're in your Panther or Raven or Wolfhound, and then all of this sudden, you hear over your external speakers this ungodly buzzing noise that's coming straight towards you. Those saws ain't looking so lame now, are they?

Here's how I'd fix the Raider. First, after killing all the lawyers (kudos to you if you get that joke), I'd rip the ICE engine out and plonk a Fusion one in so I'd get more tonnage to play with. Then I'd gut the MRM rack plus its ammo to put an actual weapon there, like a Medium Laser. Add a few more points of armor and some heat sinks as needed and viola! One medium 'Mech that doesn't suck so bad. It now has a chance to actually be able to do some damage before closing in for the uppercut.

And of course I'd keep the saws because here are your options:

1. Eff you I'm Spiderman

[Maelwys]

Anyone else find it odd that they're having trouble making fusion engines in the 3130's? Sure, you can argue that they're "Military" or something, and that's the issue, but it just sort of seems sort of odd. I can see them having trouble in the beginning, but to fail completely?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They're not.  This is a mech who was built by someone who wasn't supposed to have access to military equipment and had to improvise.  Everyone else has access to XXL powered assault mechs.

To me, this seems like it's built for the sheer fear factor than to actually deal damage. Those saws aren't gonna do any real damage unless it's against the head, but the view from the cockpit of the 'Mech on the other end will totally scare the crap outta ya. Just imagine, if for but a single moment, you're in your Panther or Raven or Wolfhound, and then all of this sudden, you hear over your external speakers this ungodly buzzing noise that's coming straight towards you. Those saws ain't looking so lame now, are they?

Is that before or after the light mech pilot realizes they can walk faster than this thing can run when it isn't overheated from firing its weapon?

[glitterboy2098]

this is an embodyment of the Sagan quote; "If you wish to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe"

Bannson wanted to have battlemech production for his secret army. he was not allowed to have an official mech factory, and he didn't have access to factories for all the parts.
and he couldn't import parts from anyone not working for him without making it more likely that the republic intelligence agencies would figure out what he was doing.
he was basically having to reinvent the mech, from scratch, and build the infrastructure to produce it.. in such a way no one would notice the project was occurring.

so while he evidently had companies that made MRM's and RAC's, myomers and misc mech parts.. he didn't have any making fusion engines, and the attempts to design one that could be built in secret without a big factory kept failing.

still, even with all those constraints you'd think his design team would have done a better job...

[Fallen_Raven]

I don't know, I just tested the Mk II against some Scorpion tanks with much success. Normally a RAC/2 isn't a potent weapon, but you can get some useful engagement range out of it. Especially if you look at it as an opportunity to build heat for a TSM powered kick. The crit seeking nature just improves the odds of parking a tank so you can close in for melee attacks.

[Liam's Ghost]

still, even with all those constraints you'd think his design team would have done a better job...

It's really the dual saw that's gumming up the works more than the engine. A raider II without that could upgrade all the way to a gauss gun and really mess with people's heads, or perhaps some combination of LB10X and AES for the poorly trained pilots.

[Heretic]

Is that before or after the light mech pilot realizes they can walk faster than this thing can run when it isn't overheated from firing its weapon?

Does it matter? It's approximately several tons of whirring spiky metal that is coming to meet your face in a violent manner oh dear God run to the hills you fool with enough force to do more than a scratch on the paintjob. If it hits you, your day is going to go southward.

And even if it doesn't hit, the psychological damage is already done. You do not wanna tangle with this, you want to run the hell away. Basic logic right there. That hilltop several hexes away looks like good place to snipe this thing with your ~~totally rad~~ ER Large Laser...wait a minute, is that another one? Oh, no, more spiky doom is coming toward your face!

this is an embodyment of the Sagan quote; "If you wish to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe"

No wonder all the pies I make always taste funky...I always keep forgetting to cause the Big Bang.

[Liam's Ghost]

Does it matter? It's approximately several tons of whirring spiky metal that is coming to meet your face in a violent manner oh dear God run to the hills you fool with enough force to do more than a scratch on the paintjob. If it hits you, your day is going to go southward.

And even if it doesn't hit, the psychological damage is already done. You do not wanna tangle with this, you want to run the hell away. Basic logic right there. That hilltop several hexes away looks like good place to snipe this thing with your ~~totally rad~~ ER Large Laser...wait a minute, is that another one? Oh, no, more spiky doom is coming toward your face!

That only works for so long, and against nobody accustomed to fighting in physical combat.

[Scotty]

Relying on your opponent to be afraid of you based on nothing but scary sounds and looks is a great way to get killed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's a tactic that isn't going to work on anyone with any sort of battle experience, that's for sure.

And it's going to be utterly hilarious if this thing winds up facing off against a Valiant or Scarabus.

[Colt Ward]

Interesting question would be with the weight savings between a ICE to Fusion and for the saw, what single weapon could you have gotten for that weight?

[A. Lurker]

That only works for so long, and against nobody accustomed to fighting in physical combat.

I'd go so far as to say that it probably doesn't work against anyone in a real 'Mech of their own at all. Even a Wasp pilot is going to have (a) gotten over any serious "OMG it's a 'Mech!" impulse circa in basic training by dint of sheer familiarity and (b) probably encountered IndustrialMechs before -- remember, the unarmed versions of these things are basically fixtures of civilian life on many BT worlds just like mobile heavy equipment serving many of the same purposes is to us today -- and figured out that noisy power tools alone do not a war machine make.

[Liam's Ghost]

I'm giving it some credit for the environment the Raider appeared in, when slapping a light AC on a lumbermech and sticking a rookie in it seemed like a good idea.

[Colt Ward]

After playing with HMP . . . to answer my own question, you could put a 3rd MRM10 rack and a RAC/2 with 2t of ammo and the 2 SHS for the production model.  With a bit more armor of course . . . makes something that COULD go after light mechs like Panthers, Wasps and Stingers and a decent chance.