Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 133673 times)

Archangel

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #240 on: 17 May 2018, 11:32:32 »
Agreed. I would love to see the spirits absorb the jags and have Brandon Howell serve in a senior role

Blood Spirits didn't care for the Jaguars nor did the Jags care about the Blood Spirits.  As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Jags were just as corrupt as the rest.  As far as the Jags were concerned, the Blood Spirits were even further beneath them than most other Clans.  The Jags collapse would simply reinforce the Blood Spirits' belief that their corruption led to their defeat and absorbing living warriors would risk absorbing their corruption whether it be actual corruption or simply new ideas that would undermine their esprit de corps (for example, Jag warriors were far more likely to challenge their superiors over minor issues than a Spirit warrior).
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #241 on: 17 May 2018, 11:43:55 »
The Jaguars were basically the exact opposite of esprit de corps.
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #242 on: 17 May 2018, 12:30:19 »
Not so. The Jaguars found great commonality in their love to persecute everyone equally. Freebirths, Spheroids, Clansmen from other Clans, fellow Jaguars who failed by questionable definitions/reasons/were too old...

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« Last Edit: 17 May 2018, 12:33:31 by Crimson Dynamo »
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #243 on: 18 May 2018, 03:38:16 »
Blood Spirits didn't care for the Jaguars nor did the Jags care about the Blood Spirits.  As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Jags were just as corrupt as the rest.  As far as the Jags were concerned, the Blood Spirits were even further beneath them than most other Clans.  The Jags collapse would simply reinforce the Blood Spirits' belief that their corruption led to their defeat and absorbing living warriors would risk absorbing their corruption whether it be actual corruption or simply new ideas that would undermine their esprit de corps (for example, Jag warriors were far more likely to challenge their superiors over minor issues than a Spirit warrior).

All true however while the spirits hated and loathed the burrocks with the power of a 10000 suns they still expected to be the next ones to absorb them. The burrocks were the worst example of the corruption of the way of the clans to the spirits but they still wanted to absorb them.

What I propose is a more pragmatic choice for the spirits: the absorption of the jags would offer new resources, tech and warrior lines that they would never have accces to. The jags would not be in much of position to refuse!

Archangel

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #244 on: 22 May 2018, 23:29:48 »
All true however while the spirits hated and loathed the burrocks with the power of a 10000 suns they still expected to be the next ones to absorb them. The burrocks were the worst example of the corruption of the way of the clans to the spirits but they still wanted to absorb them.

The absorption would have turned into an annihilation like the Jaguar absorption of Clan Mongoose.  However, unlike the Jags who kept the Mongoose genes as a trophy, the Spirits would likely have disposed of all of Clan Burrock's genes whether in combat, using clorine or simply turning off the power to the storage facilities.

Quote
What I propose is a more pragmatic choice for the spirits: the absorption of the jags would offer new resources, tech and warrior lines that they would never have accces to. The jags would not be in much of position to refuse!

The Jags certainly wouldn't have turned down an offer by the Burrocks for them to join Clan Jaguar.   :D (Actually they might have.)

Pride (and even moreso "wounded" pride) has often driven the Clans, especially the Jaguars, to make foolish decisions.  The destruction of Edo after Hohiro's escape nearly resulted in them being sidelined, when confronted by Hohiro on Wolcott despite his own misgivings the Jag Commander agreed to Hohiro's terms and it cost him his life, in order to regain face lost in the invasion (and to humiliate the Clan Wolf) the Jags reduced the number of troops deployed to Tukayyid effectively costing them victory before they even reached the battlefield, etc.

As the saying goes:"Pride goeth before a fall" and the Jaguars were a very prideful Clan.
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Straw Boss

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #245 on: 22 May 2018, 23:44:44 »
•   Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?

Yes both Clans have the right to refuse any action taken by another Clan.

•   Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions

I really would have liked the see Ghost Bear jump in. (or at least say ONE word during the council meeting) it is on their border after all.

•   If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o   A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough

After the success of the first wave, i feel that dropping a Galaxy is not unreasonable, at the time (and beyond) the Ghost Bear had the largest Touman of any of the other clans. and some elite galaxies right next door. If anything send the Maulers from Beta as they are the best Beta has to offer, and staunch crusaders that probably fully support ilKhan Osis.

•   Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:

Friendship...and planets...good ones

Honestly the fact that Khan Ward was against supporting the Jaguars is reason enough for me to be all in. the Wolf clan is always up to some sneaky un-Clanlike scheming.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #246 on: 23 May 2018, 00:51:38 »
The Bears would never intervene.  First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #247 on: 23 May 2018, 06:32:50 »
The Bears would never intervene.  First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.

This is what makes this discussion enjoyable every one disliked the jags but even at the end they had things of value if a smaller clan could have taken some and held it they would have been a much better position.

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #248 on: 23 May 2018, 06:38:37 »
Well sure, if a clan didn't act like a clan they could make some gains until they got called on their unclanlike behavior.
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Archangel

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #249 on: 31 May 2018, 09:18:25 »
The Bears would never intervene.  First of all, intervening in things isn't really in their nature to begin with, and second of all, the Bears dislike the Jaguars and Nova Cats in particular and wouldn't have much interest in helping them especially.

Third, at the time, they were busy transferring most of their Clan to the Inner Sphere and trying to establish a permanent home for themselves in their OZ.
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Archangel

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #250 on: 31 May 2018, 09:20:52 »
This is what makes this discussion enjoyable every one disliked the jags but even at the end they had things of value if a smaller clan could have taken some and held it they would have been a much better position.

Several Clans did. AFTER the Jags were defeated.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #251 on: 31 May 2018, 17:40:12 »
If the spirits were too assist against serpent what aerospace fighter assets could they have drawn on?

The blood guard Keshik their closest unit to huntress was all Mech. Their aero space forces were always kept separate so would they have had some on strana mechty to join in?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #252 on: 10 August 2018, 11:00:09 »
Several Clans did. AFTER the Jags were defeated.

So if the jags had gotten help and survived how could they held off absorbition?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #253 on: 10 August 2018, 15:49:42 »
They'd have needed to suddenly come up with something that gave them a quick boost to military strength, like the secret sibkos the Falcons suddenly had after the Refusal War.  And like the Falcons and Wolves after the Refusal War, they'd have had to have quickly launched one or more attacks to demonstrate that they were still strong.

Of course, if they then failed in those attacks, then Alexandre Kerensky himself wouldn't have been able to save them.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #254 on: 10 August 2018, 21:51:05 »
They'd have needed to suddenly come up with something that gave them a quick boost to military strength, like the secret sibkos the Falcons suddenly had after the Refusal War.  And like the Falcons and Wolves after the Refusal War, they'd have had to have quickly launched one or more attacks to demonstrate that they were still strong.

Of course, if they then failed in those attacks, then Alexandre Kerensky himself wouldn't have been able to save them.

Right they would have had to ramp the harvest trials and do a contract bid with the horses or some such

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #255 on: 10 August 2018, 22:17:34 »
No, they'd have to do something far more extreme than that.  They'd have to do something spectacular- beat invading Coventry or the Wolves' series of trials.  Unlike the Wolves and Falcons, they have no friends at this point, everyone is just waiting to snap up their remains at the first sign of weakness.  Like capturing and holding an important world from another Home Clan.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #256 on: 12 September 2018, 09:11:40 »
If the Clan SDS system was turned back....almost certainly the Jags would have survived. They'd have ben able to pick off "Bulldog" while it was still incoming.

They'd be weakened, but they'd still have forces available on other Cluster worlds such as Tranquil.

How hard would the back up SDS have been to turn back on?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #257 on: 12 September 2018, 10:06:50 »
IIRC, pretty damned hard.  Task Force Serpent wanted to make sure that it stayed off.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #258 on: 12 September 2018, 11:05:00 »
Right. When osis was jumped by the the nekami he was inspecting the backup SDS site right? Was the back up damaged but repairable? I remember that after osis was injured the nekami blew the site to heck but was it fixable before that?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #259 on: 12 September 2018, 13:37:23 »
Define "fixable."  No hard description of just how wrecked it was was ever given.
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Takiro

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #260 on: 12 September 2018, 15:06:45 »
Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #261 on: 12 September 2018, 18:00:00 »
Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.

I think the Howell led jags would have looked a lot like vlads wolves but the culture change would be harder

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #262 on: 12 September 2018, 18:10:02 »
I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily.  Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.
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Frank

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #263 on: 13 September 2018, 03:20:38 »
Why don't you just start after Tukayyid and say that Osis didn't make it leaving Howell as the Khan who rebuilds the Jaguars from 3052 onward.

Would have been more interesting if Brandan Howell ended up the Khan. Got the impression he was more of thinker less of temper tantrum guy then Osis.

Takiro

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #264 on: 13 September 2018, 05:15:23 »
I think the Howell led jags would have looked a lot like vlads wolves but the culture change would be harder

Doing a bunch of research on the Clans for my own projects the Jaguars (and this is my absorption) must have had a Crusader Harvest prior to the invasion (Operation Revival) like the Crusader Wolves did after the Refusal War. There are a lot of bloodnames from other Clans appearing in the Smoke Jaguar touman at this time which indicate this and lets face it they are one of the leading Crusaders at this time. Still in superb position to say hey were an Invader and your Clan is not so come join us they can rebuild in this fashion.

It is essentially a blank canvas after Osis demise on Tukayyid and you can do whatever you like of course. Decide who your sakhan will be and your (Howell's) rebuilding vision for the Clan then see how events effect this all.

How is this for a concept alternate: Vlad of the Smoke Jaguars
Brandon Howell, the new Khan of the Smoke Jaguars, embarks on a course to rebuild his Clan by taking what he needs from others. After all it is what the Jaguars do and Howell himself comes from a Snow Raven bloodline. The Crusader Wolves beset with the rise of an ancient Warden and freeborn Spheroid Mechwarrior have been left without leadership in the wake of Conal Ward's disgrace which presents Howell with an opportunity. Trialing for talented individuals nets him several notables including Vlad whose passion for the Crusader cause can not be understated. Together they embark on a Crusade to end all Crusades!

Remember Vlad still has to earn his bloodname and has some room to grow as a character till 3057 but this event would certain alter your universe and may well rebuild the Clan.  ;)
« Last Edit: 13 September 2018, 05:40:42 by Takiro »

Stormforge

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #265 on: 20 September 2018, 08:56:09 »
I apologize for the thread-jack, but I am looking for information on Smoke Jaguars mech weight distribution in their forces for a project I am working on in MekHQ. I did not want to waste a new thread for this single question. I have most books so a point in the right direction should be all I need. Actually this information for other Clans would be helpful for possible future projects too.

I am working on recreating the game Mechwarrior 3 and the novel Trial Under Fire in MekHQ. Yeah I know the thread is Save the Jags, and I am a freebirth spheroid taking part in their destruction.  >:D

In reading the novel and reviewing the game it came to my attention that the mech and vehicle variety seem a bit off. While the novel is technically canon I could not get over the concentration of a few IS Omnis or IS upgraded Wolf Dragoon designs. Out of 22 Assault Mechs 9 are Annihilator 2As, with 2 missions having 3 each. What I am looking to do is give my campaign a more natural feel with more variety in the Draconis Combine salvaged mechs, add in some IIC and other Second Line mechs/vehicles, and give the Front Line mechs a more Jaguar feel. I am using MegaMek's custom RATs so I should be good there.

This is what I am currently working with for weight distribution based on the game.

23 light mechs
25 medium mechs
59 heavy mechs
22 assault mechs

9 partial to full Elemental points

47 light vehicles (mix of wheeled APCs, Harassers, Strikers, and 15 Donar VTOL)
19 Bulldog tanks

About a Galaxy worth of forces left to the Wolves for salvage from a lance of spheroid warriors.  xp
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 09:01:50 by Stormforge »
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #266 on: 20 September 2018, 10:02:55 »
I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily.  Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.

That is how they did things!

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #267 on: 02 October 2018, 07:45:55 »
A recently stumbled upon a sarna entry on the jaquers swords. Which was a cover ops unit of the jags ( how that worked i don’t know!) can any one provide info on unit composition and fate?

Wotan

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #268 on: 02 October 2018, 08:20:41 »
There is only that small sentence in the Jihad Sourcebook. I don't think you will find more.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #269 on: 02 October 2018, 19:58:49 »
There is only that small sentence in the Jihad Sourcebook. I don't think you will find more.


Hmmm what do we think they would have been equipped with