Author Topic: Omnimechs, lower arm and hand actuators, and PPCs, Autocannons, and Gauss Rifles  (Read 4310 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Was there ever an in-game explanation for why omnimechs have to remove the lower arm and hand actuators if they try to arm-mount a PPC, Autocannon, or Gauss Rifle?
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AlphaMirage

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My in game explanation has always been some tech in Clan Coyote got lazy when designing the first omni (coyotl?) and didn't want to add additional brackets to mount the gun under the arm (like the Thunderbolt, Griffin, Battlemaster, etc...).  So they just designed omni-pods to fit in the elbow joint for standardization, the other clans just copy pasted and since they don't punch (or do smash and grab raids) they just never cared much for hand actuators so they take them or leave them.

Retry

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My in game explanation has always been some tech in Clan Coyote got lazy when designing the first omni (coyotl?) and didn't want to add additional brackets to mount the gun under the arm (like the Thunderbolt, Griffin, Battlemaster, etc...).  So they just designed omni-pods to fit in the elbow joint for standardization, the other clans just copy pasted and since they don't punch (or do smash and grab raids) they just never cared much for hand actuators so they take them or leave them.

It makes some sense for the Clans if you don't think about it too hard, but the IS got Omni-tech later on as well and they're still limited to the elbow joint, and they'd certainly have differing opinions on hand actuators and punching.

Empyrus

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No real explanation has been ever given, i think.
Some suggest "the weapons are so heavy they require stronger connection points" and thus replace the arm pods. Only, this explanation doesn't really work since there are heavy missile launchers without the said problems, and there are really small weapons that do go in place of arms like AP Gauss Rifles.

Basically we're stuck with "random OmniTech magic", not that different from how the OmniMagic vanishes from 'Mechs when you change its fixed items even when there is no fundamental change (eg pull fixed medium laser from an Avatar for an ER medium laser).

(IMO the system should be changed to be weight-dependent, like anything that weights more than 5 tons can't be used with lower arm and hand actuators, and anything over 2.5 tons can't be used with with hand actuators, or something like this.)

It makes some sense for the Clans if you don't think about it too hard, but the IS got Omni-tech later on as well and they're still limited to the elbow joint, and they'd certainly have differing opinions on hand actuators and punching.
Spheroids copied OmniTech so they're stuck with how the Clans designed the system.
But even for the Clans, opting for either hands or weapons is questionable because hands can be useful in certain environments, something the Clanners are aware of (eg in Bloodname when Pershaw sends Aidan's Star to the swamp).

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Guess FASA figured after they made that rule that any attempts to actually explain it would just fall into voodoo shark territory.
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Empyrus

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Guess FASA figured after they made that rule that any attempts to actually explain it would just fall into voodoo shark territory.
I figure the original intent was that "heavy weapons" required more or stronger connections. Consider the original Omnis: Only Clans got them, the weapons that require empty arms all weight 5 tons or more. There is some weirdness when it comes to LRM-20 (5 tons), and LB-2X and UAC/2 (5 tons each), but presumably they went with simplicity in those cases as other missiles can be used with arms, other ballistics can't be.
It worked fine then but then the Spheroids got Omnis and brought their heavy missile weapons with them, though this arguably worked due to its consistency. But then there was new tech and lighter Gauss like AP Gauss or Magshot and Light PPC... And BattleTech TPTB have always been averse to redoing existing rules relating to weapons and construction, so it never got changed even though it would've been logical.
Now, you're right it sure would become a voodoo shark if anyone tries to explain it.

Kit deSummersville

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The computer can't handle digits and big guns. 2048kb just isn't enough.
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Empyrus

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The computer can't handle digits and big guns. 2048kb just isn't enough.
Given BT's nature as 80s future, this sound extremely plausible.

idea weenie

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(IMO the system should be changed to be weight-dependent, like anything that weights more than 5 tons can't be used with lower arm and hand actuators, and anything over 2.5 tons can't be used with with hand actuators, or something like this.)

This would make more sense if the tonnage was based on the mounting Omnimech.  I.e. a 20 ton Omnimech might only be able to handle 1 ton weapons along with hands (i.e. CERML), while a 80 ton Omni would be able to handle 4 ton weapons (i.e. CERLL) along with hands (or 4 tons of weapons, such as a pair of CMPL).

Empyrus

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This would make more sense if the tonnage was based on the mounting Omnimech.  I.e. a 20 ton Omnimech might only be able to handle 1 ton weapons along with hands (i.e. CERML), while a 80 ton Omni would be able to handle 4 ton weapons (i.e. CERLL) along with hands (or 4 tons of weapons, such as a pair of CMPL).
I figure that universal restrictions is enough, rather than make it dependent on 'Mech itself. It isn't like the current 'Mech system is logical anyway, like how come 20 ton and 100 ton 'Mechs have exactly the same internal space, how come all arms are same size and weightless, etc.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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How come an Annihilator moving at 35 kph takes the same penalty to attack rolls as a Dasher doing three times that speed?
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Because keep your damn math to yourself

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How come an Annihilator moving at 35 kph takes the same penalty to attack rolls as a Dasher doing three times that speed?

The Annihilator is like twice the size of the Dasher and sways more as it moves, duh. ;)
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By the book; the bigger guns need to use the mounts for the lower arm and hand actuators in order to be omni-capable and sable within the pod.

Why they made that call? I have no idea. We'd need to ask someone who was there when the Omnis were designed before the debut of the Clans.
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Kit deSummersville

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How come an Annihilator moving at 35 kph takes the same penalty to attack rolls as a Dasher doing three times that speed?

It doesn't. It takes twice as much of a penalty.
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SD501st

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The Annihilator is like twice the size of the Dasher and sways more as it moves, duh. ;)
Yeah, you go and explain that to all the Ghost Bear Elementals who feel like being on a rollercoaster ride while hanging from that thing! :D
And still come back for more because they like it!

As for my headcanon explanation... small engines provide less power to the myomers, thus the myomers can't absorb as much of the shock that a 100 ton Mech creates compared to a 20 ton Mech, when it stomps down. Coincindentally, the Firemoth and Annhilator have engines of the exact same rating.
I'm sure this explanation creates a vodoo shark/dead catgirls too, but I have decided to not think it through more than that. ^^
« Last Edit: 23 May 2018, 08:40:55 by SD501st »

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I am now imagining clan rodeos where the elementals try to hang onto mechs moving at high speeds through dangerous terrain

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SD501st

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I am now imagining clan rodeos where the elementals try to hang onto mechs moving at high speeds through dangerous terrain
The Firemoth's fluff also tells us that there's a real risk of getting sweeped off of the Mech by the arms, and that the lower risk of this happening is one of the advantages of the Firemoth's overhead arm design.

Factor that into your mental image, and suddenly the terrain becomes the least of the Elemental's worries...  >:D

Wait a minute... possibility of getting swept off by the arms... combined with typical large bulk of the weapons that restrict the actuators... could that have been one of the original thoughts behind this? I'm not talking critical slots, I'm talking about the actual bulk of the weapons. A LRM20 can be made to fit AROUND the lower arm/hand of a Mech, a PPC or Autocannon can't be because they are by design one large and continous component. I could imagine that these large protruding weapons on a Mech with the capability to move it's lower arms would increase this risk quite a lot, and that is just not acceptable. All Omnis are designed to carry Battle Armor, after all.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2018, 08:51:37 by SD501st »

Boomer8

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I am now imagining clan rodeos where the elementals try to hang onto mechs moving at high speeds through dangerous terrain


That's not a rodeo, that just basic training..... ::)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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For the rodeo they add mechanical jump boosters to the mech.
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RoundTop

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Ok, I was holding off until I was in front of a computer, but I have a bit of insight as to the original question about Omnimechs and PPCS, autocannons, and gauss rifles.

This is put together from hearing a story from Jordan Weisman.
Back in the day (the late 1980s), there was work being done on a new computer game (Post crescent hawks, pre-MW2). It was going to use the latest in 3D graphics. The only problem was memory. Both on disk and in system memory. So the solution was to use the same assets for multiple designs. Same arms, same legs, core torsos, etc. This idea, to save disk space on a computer game, is how omnimechs came to be. An in universe explanation for this game.

Now the game died and didn't see the light of day, but the work to support it (TRO3050) and the Clan mechs would live on as Omnimechs.

This helped when Mechwarrior 2 came out, as it made animations simpler (only animate one set of legs for Loki and Hellbringer, Timber Wolf and Vulture).

Anyways, so why we have this big gun rule? It was easier for the computer graphics of the day to show big barrels than hands, and they didnt have space to animate completely different arms, so they had to keep it simple swap outs.

And then the fluff was made to support it.

Anyways... believe it or not, this is how I heard from Jordan about the version 1 omnimechs (the computer game) and the rest is pretty much connecting the dots.
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massey

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My head-canon is that there's nothing in the technology actually requiring this, it's just how they built it.  Just like there's nothing preventing your car from having its gas tank in the roof, but nobody builds them that way.

At the time when Omni technology was created, PPCs, Gauss Rifles, and Autocannons were expected to be the "primary guns" of a mech.  Given that the Clans don't really engage in melee combat that much, keeping the hands in place while carrying heavy weapons wasn't really considered that important.  Basically the designers decided this was an easy shortcut, and they took it.  The lower arm and hand assembly would be considered an easy detachment point.  Just unplug the lower arm from the elbow connector, and it removes easily.  Then you can stick your weapon pod in its place with a minimum amount of fuss.  The advantages you get from being able to flip arms would outweigh the inability to punch, at least in the Clan mindset.  And if you really need to keep your hand actuator for some reason, you can just use a Large Pulse instead of that PPC.

Now, there's nothing requiring an Omnimech to be built that way.  You could theoretically design it where you could attach a PPC underneath the arm assembly.  But they didn't.  Maybe there are good reasons not to do that, ones that don't show up in game stats.  I've always felt that designing a mech in-universe should be harder than it is for us scratching it down on paper.  Just because something would be game legal doesn't mean that it would always work in-universe.  It's not just a matter of counting available critical slots and tonnage.

As far as lasers and machine guns go, I presume they aren't bulky enough to require the entire arm assembly to be removed.  It's easy enough to squeeze them in somewhere without jacking with the external housing too much, or throwing off the balance of the machine.  Again, these are things that would be clearly understood by a Clan tech, but we the readers just don't know enough about how it works to know why they did it this way.  If somebody is applying the "no hand" rule to AP Gauss weapons, then I think that's just carrying the general rule too far and it's a dumb decision by a game company employee.

With LRMs and larger SRMs, I think the assumption is that even if an LRM-20 is mounted in the "arm", it's probably much more of a shoulder mount.  It's something that ends up looking like a MadCat's missile launcher instead of the hand mounted one that the Salamander carries.  In game terms it's in the arm, but visually it isn't going into the lower arm area (even if that's where the crit spaces are).  Some versions of the Crusader are drawn this way.

--

While there's nothing requiring Omnimechs to look a certain way, I think the fact that the early Omnis all had a certain style supports the idea that a lot of their parts are made to be interchangeable.  A Loki arm versus a Thor arm versus a MadCat arm, they're all the same basic exterior housing.  The big improvement with Omni designs would not be in the mech, it would be in the supply chain.  All your PPCs are made with the same type of connector.  All of them are made to fit certain dimensions.  An Inner Sphere PPC might look like a long, thin barrel (i.e., on the Warhammer), or be a short, fat double-barrel (like on the Battlemaster), or the underslung version on the Panther.  But the Clan versions (at least post-Omni) are all going to be very similar, because they're all plug-and-play.

Once that standard is established, it doesn't make any sense to stray from those norms.  Yes, you could develop your own Omni that could carry an underslung Gauss Rifle and still have a hand.  The Nightstar carries one in the arm and has a hand, after all.  But you're basically redesigning a major part of the system from scratch.  And do you really gain that much from it?

Now, later Omnimech art kind of throws the whole modular appearance thing in the toilet.  Actually I think that's where most of those designs belong (completely horrible mech art in later TROs).  But at least as far as the original Omni designs, they all look pretty interchangeable.

beachhead1985

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Ok, I was holding off until I was in front of a computer, but I have a bit of insight as to the original question about Omnimechs and PPCS, autocannons, and gauss rifles.

This is put together from hearing a story from Jordan Weisman.
Back in the day (the late 1980s), there was work being done on a new computer game (Post crescent hawks, pre-MW2). It was going to use the latest in 3D graphics. The only problem was memory. Both on disk and in system memory. So the solution was to use the same assets for multiple designs. Same arms, same legs, core torsos, etc. This idea, to save disk space on a computer game, is how omnimechs came to be. An in universe explanation for this game.

Now the game died and didn't see the light of day, but the work to support it (TRO3050) and the Clan mechs would live on as Omnimechs.

This helped when Mechwarrior 2 came out, as it made animations simpler (only animate one set of legs for Loki and Hellbringer, Timber Wolf and Vulture).

Anyways, so why we have this big gun rule? It was easier for the computer graphics of the day to show big barrels than hands, and they didnt have space to animate completely different arms, so they had to keep it simple swap outs.

And then the fluff was made to support it.

Anyways... believe it or not, this is how I heard from Jordan about the version 1 omnimechs (the computer game) and the rest is pretty much connecting the dots.

Thank you RoundTop!
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glitterboy2098

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if most of the 3050 Omni's started as computer game units, might that also explain why the art didn't match their  stats? originally they were designed with totally different stats than the TRO gave them.. possibly not even using BT weaponry originally?

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if most of the 3050 Omni's started as computer game units, might that also explain why the art didn't match their  stats? originally they were designed with totally different stats than the TRO gave them.. possibly not even using BT weaponry originally?
I’ve long understood this to be a myth.  The “Mark I Omnis” you see pop up from time to time we’re fabricated later, to fit the art.
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I’ve long understood this to be a myth.  The “Mark I Omnis” you see pop up from time to time we’re fabricated later, to fit the art.

As far as the Omnis, what started out in the first TRO 3050 drafts ended up in the printed version.
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glitterboy2098

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wasn't talking about the mythical "mk.1's".. i was wondering if part of the reason the Omnis didn't match their art was because said art originally wasn't meant for battletech.

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wasn't talking about the mythical "mk.1's".. i was wondering if part of the reason the Omnis didn't match their art was because said art originally wasn't meant for battletech.

No, it was always meant for Battletech.
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idea weenie

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How come an Annihilator moving at 35 kph takes the same penalty to attack rolls as a Dasher doing three times that speed?

Because both are hitting the limit on what their myomers can do to absorb shock.  Think how easy it is to carry and not spill a glass of water while walking.  Now imagine doing the same thing while jogging.  At walking speed, there is extra 'give' in the myomers and structure to allow the Mech to correct itself easily.  At Running speed the myomers are being stressed from doing near full power leg movement, so the Mech can try to compensate, but it doesn't have as much capability.

For the rodeo they add mechanical jump boosters to the mech.

And Battlearmor cheaters use Magclamps