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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Jellico on 18 April 2014, 14:25:34
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Defender: FR2765:AFFS
(http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/7/74/Defender_%28WarShip%29.jpg)
Before writing this article I spent a few minutes reminding myself just how the Defender plays. It is a lot of fun. It is also one of the most luck dependent units you are ever going to play. We are talking spectacular success or demoralising failure. The very essence of eggshells with sledgehammers. So, without any further ado, the Defender-class battle cruiser.
“A battle cruiser has the guns of a battleship but gives up armour in favour of speed.” If you have spent any time around heavy aerospace in Battletech you get sick of that line. It wasn’t true in 1910 and it certainly isn’t true in Battletech. There are six known battle cruisers. The SLDF had the Black Lion I and II, and the Cameron. Basically operating at battleship thrust, cruiser sized but lacking LF batteries. The SLDF inspired Conqueror, battleship thrust, cruiser sized, and impossible to tell apart from a cruiser. There is the Mjolnir. Well, nothing light about its armour, though arguably it is an overgrown light cruiser. Then we have the Defender. Described by one author as “giving the customers what they want.” So just what did the customers get?
The Defender basically owes its existence to a reference to the FSS Golden Lion sacrificing itself in a throwaway line in the House Davion Source Book. The name’s similarity to the Black Lion led to years of speculation of a Davion battle cruiser, obviously of unsurpassed potency. How else could it defeat the Draconis Combine at Cholame? So it remained a myth until Field Report 2765: AFFS. Picking up another stub of history, Strategic Operations’ Defender-class, the Field Report combined the two giving us the ship we know today.
The basic story of the Defender revolves around the Terran Alliance getting a big ship (the Dreadnought) and the Federated Suns wanting a better one. If this wasn’t a family website I would mention just how perfect the art for the Defender is right now. This being the 2300s no one really knew what a WarShip should be like let alone how to build a big one, let alone how to fight one, let alone which technologies would be useful. So it took the Federated Suns forty-five years to build their response. Space ships are just big fighters right? Well, no as the earliest known aerospace fighter dates to 2314, a year before TAS Dreadnought. But the Suns’ thinking wasn’t far off that. Hairy big auto cannons were the name of the game. That’s what Dreadnought had! And mobility, the ability to dog fight wins battles. The problems started when the Suns wanted to pack more thrust than anyone had had before into a hull that stretched the Terran Hegemony’s capabilities. And the Federated Suns proved once again why they are known for their armies.
First the Federated Suns had to build a yard capable of building a 960,000 ton ship. Then they had to pack some engines in there. (Literally 288,000 tons of engines. Nothing gets close until the Texas 300 years later.) Then they had to make sure that turning corners at high thrust didn’t snap the 870 hull in half. The end result is that they had to make a few compromises.
First up the guns are damn good. How good? The broadside is better than a Cameron good. Better than a Texas. Okay, its bottom end of a modern ship its size, but for a ship its age? Damn good. The problem is the broadside. Getting all those engines in meant a little problem at the aft of the ship. No room for guns. Even all the way up into the broadside arc. Those guns the Defender does have are remarkably easy to use. Thanks to strong fore quarters you can consistently put 12 NAC20s and 2 NAC35s on target wherever the bow is pointing. Of course favouring bow-on combat means you are vulnerable to CIC and sensor hits. Fortunately they aren’t much of a problem for the Defender.
That big long hull with huge engines at one end and heavy guns at the other is highly stressed. Something the authors chose to simulate with a Structural Integrity that would make many a corvette cry. In turn this means armour is a bit lacking. It is not as bad as an Agamemnon and that’s my position and I am sticking to it. Come up against a modern cruiser and you can be sucking void really quickly. On the other hand you can pick your range against any target. That high thrust means you can choose to engage or not. In many cases the key word is “not”.
The other big compromise is the lack of docking collars. It was the 24th Century. Who knew what would be successful? So the Defender got four huge DropShuttle Bays instead of docking collars. Given that they can swallow anything short of a Mammoth there is not much to complain about. But the four bays could have been six collars. A typically big cargo bay and 20 Small Craft bays (a Fed Suns Wing) round out the internal capacity. AA is meh with the ever popular AC5 getting a workout. Point defence is very solid, especially aft.
The Davions finally got their battle cruiser in 2360 and it really truly could take on a Dreadnought. They got to enjoy it for eight years, then the first Monsoon launched. More ranged gun power, more armour, more cargo and fancy smanchy fighter bays and docking collars. Oh, and the Hegemony could build them faster. The Aegis in 2372 just made things worse. Not as bad as a Monsoon, but statistically just beyond what a Defender could handle. Realising that they were fighting a losing battle the Suns swallowed its pride after the first half dozen Defenders and lived off Hegemony scraps until the Davion I in the 25th Century. The Defender-class did not like peace. Basically hanger queens they spent most of their lives demobilised, coming out for the Reunification War, and Amaris Coup. The Succession Wars would be their last hurrah.
I said before that Defenders are fun. In the first test I took on an old Narukami. Both ships are glass cannons with huge guns and thrust to burn. It all came down to positioning, denying the enemy that extra to-hit modifier. No bracketing. The Defender’s advantage was it was firing five bays to the Narukami’s three. Over multiple rolls the chances add up. On the other hand, a single hit from the Narukami would penetrate the Defender’s armour, while they second hit on that location would be fatal. It was a dance of daggers and ultimately it came down to the luck of the ECM rolls.
The second test put the Defender up against an Aegis (2372). I played it straight with the time period being before Hegemony bracketing. The Aegis had no chance with positioning. It just had to rotate and hope for the best. The Aegis’ has a weaker salvo than the Defender, but it has much better armour. And the weapons it has are almost tailor made to not quite breach the Defender’s armour. A fight to a stand-still was the result. Luck played far less of a role as both ships had similar weapons, but when the dice went against the Defender it hurt a lot more. A Dreadnought would play out in nearly the exact same way.
The important thing in both of these battles was the Defender could win. Especially against light opponents it can run them down and beat them up. The high thrust makes driving it a dream compared to traditional cruisers. The guns are still dangerous enough that anything with flanks less than 150 points are vulnerable to a lucky salvo, making a Defender a threat to big ships, right up to the end of the Star League. Basically you are driving a million ton WarShip with the ethic of a hover tank pilot.
Defeating a Defender is a matter of staying calm. They are soft. Oh so soft. I can’t say how soft they are. Cruiser weapons bleed them like nothing I have seen. You go from “float like a butterfly” to “where the heck did my engines go” in single hits. Hellbringer pilots would know the feeling. Still, Defenders can take hits. Typically it is peck, peck, smash. As an opponent you have to stay calm and wait for that smash. Don’t try and turn and burn with the Defender. It’s not going to happen. Keep your broadside on them. Maximise your chances of hits, and hope your armour lasts. Lack of bracketing means the Defender is going to want to brawl. Anything can happen there.
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Thank you for the write up, Jellico. As always, you write a nice article, giving us the in and outs of a unit.
The Defender is awesome, i still feel .....sad that only couple were ever made. Not even new, more efficent version. Only having couple of these ships seem to bw a crime, but i think thats risk you take when your first in line to bring home the bacon of big ships and big guns in early era.
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I am not surprised that someone who goes by the name of Jellico knows what a proper battlecruiser is. Also not surprised you enjoy this unit.
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I'm not surprised either, given that he shares a brain with the ship's designer. O0
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I love this design....artwork, weapons, everything. Definitely brings the Dakka Dakka for the Davions and on a speedboat to boot! I find it interesting that the Davions biggest design also happens to be their fastest one ever...all of their other ones are either 4/6 or 3/5 I believe.
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I am not surprised that someone who goes by the name of Jellico knows what a proper battlecruiser is. Also not surprised you enjoy this unit.
It is fun. But it is not the ship I would use. I am a big fan of the 3/5 ship of the line.
I am very very pleased with the 2765 ships. They all have flavour in spades yet remain useful. The Defender is much like the Soyal. A vocal group of fans were asking for something specific. They got it with a large dash of irony, but you would be a fool to ignore either ship.
Thank you for the write up, Jellico. As always, you write a nice article, giving us the in and outs of a unit.
The Defender is awesome, i still feel .....sad that only couple were ever made. Not even new, more efficent version. Only having couple of these ships seem to bw a crime, but i think thats risk you take when your first in line to bring home the bacon of big ships and big guns in early era.
Numbers game my friend. In the 2500s the Suns get the Davion, New Sys, Robinson, and Congress. The failures of the first generation of House WarShips basically forces all the Houses to slow down and look at the Hegemony navy, importing Black Lions, Cruisers and destroyers as they can. But by the Reunification War the bugs are worked out and they can look to a more unique feel.
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Uh. Technically TAS Dreadnought in 2300... Just saying.
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I find it interesting that the Davions biggest design also happens to be their fastest one ever...all of their other ones are either 4/6 or 3/5 I believe.
Well, in warship construction the engines (somehow) don't lose efficiency with increasing size the way they do for 'Mechs and ASFs; they always take up a straight percentage of the total mass. So there's no reason your biggest ships can't also be your fastest here, the larger frame simply means you still have more tonnage to spare for everything else.
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Well, in warship construction the engines (somehow) don't lose efficiency with increasing size the way they do for 'Mechs and ASFs; they always take up a straight percentage of the total mass. So there's no reason your biggest ships can't also be your fastest here, the larger frame simply means you still have more tonnage to spare for everything else.
Yeah, stupid vacuum and being an easy medium to travel through. ;D
Jokes aside, this is actually something you see with naval vessels plowing the world's oceans as well. I do not remember the exact numbers or anything but it was something like if you quadruple the size of a ship you only double the friction water puts on it. So if the engine remains (proportionally) the same size and power, you can go faster.
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Uh. Technically TAS Dreadnought in 2300... Just saying.
Yeah, but I doubt the Fed Suns gave it much thought before McKenna pulled his coup and the Terran Alliance became the Terran Hegemony.
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A important thing to note is that the Defender Class usually didn't operate alone but usually with a few escorts. Having a few Davion II's can keep someone from really ruining its day. And the New Syrtis Cruiser-Carrier's can put up a very respectable screen to keep enemy fighters away. But there not meant to fend off the Star Leagues warships, there meant to hold off and strike at the Combine and the Capcon. Two opponents I would think they would handle very well.
I really want a mini of this ship, I plan to build a Star League era FedSuns fleet at some point. Gives me an exscuse to paint the Davion II I ordered a bit ago!
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I am also looking forward to getting miniature of this beauty, the ship is great unit.
It must been challenging to operate her when she came out in the ye-olden days when she was the only sheriff in town.
I wonder what heck they were using for escort dropships when they only had like 1 to 2 Defenders around before original Davion Destroyers started coming out. I can't see Hegemony immediately selling off there older designs until the Star League was formed.
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Might not have had any escorting DropShips at all originally, instead relying on small craft gunships like the primitive Ares series. Some of those mounted pretty heavy firepower.
Of course, the hard part of escorting a ship like the Defender is that when you're the fastest guy around, it's hard for your buddies to keep up with you. Unless the Davions had specially designed fast escorts(I kinda doubt it), operations prior to the advent of true ASFs would present some interesting quandaries. The Defender's captain has three real options in my view:
1: He can restrain his helmsman, keeping the ship's massive speed in reserve so as not to outrun his escorts. Kind of a waste of thrust potential, but it does keep you with a single coherent group with a lot of firepower.
2: He can dance if he wants to, he can leave his friends behind. Risky diluting your strength like that, but if you do it right, you present the enemy with two threats: A small fleet of escort ships hitting them from one direction, and the full power of a blazing-fast battlecruiser from another.
3: Keep the escorts docked, and only launch them at the right moment. While we as-yet know nothing on the launch rates of DropShuttle bays, we do know the Defender's speed at chucking small craft. Like many other things about this ship, it's FAST. Keep the escort shuttles in their bays until the right moment, and then kick'em all out at once. Bam, you've got your unrestrained maneuverability and you've got your escort wing right there with you. Of course once they're launched you're stuck with options 1 or 2, but the ability to delay the choice like that can still be a useful tool.
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Wouldn't it leave some free thrust to use for evasive movement or the like as well?
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That is true. There is definitely something to be said for manevuering like a normal ship, but always having some spare TP for evasive maneuvers or an ECHO. Especially on a ship with firing arcs as limited as the Defender.
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Maybe we'll see some kind of primitive style Assault Droppers which were used as escorts until the modern more common ones came on. The Avenger is a 29th Century ship isn't it? Achilles wasn't around either least till 2582.
Those DropShuttle bays will hopefully may telling of somethings to come. The Defender like a greyhound in field filled with tiny winie dogs.
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The last Cruiser was mothballed by 2405.
Really not many of the Hegemony ships would be up for sale before the 2500s. Mainly the first generation corvettes. In the 2500s pretty much all of the early Hegemony cruisers become available as does the Essex, and Baron.
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Why did this ship never get a Block II rebuild, like the Davion and Robinson did?
As I said in another thread, this ship is more of a "pursuit" cruiser, like the Kimagure, and like the Cameron was supposed to be. Perhaps the SLDF kept the Defender in mind when considering the Kimagure? "Well, the Davion boat's execution sucked, but the concept...actually some merit there..."
When was the Aegis reactivated and distributed to the House navies? I ask this because in Historical: Reunification War, the orders of battle for the Davion navy have them fielding Aegii(??) before (I remember) they were supposed to have received them.
If this is indeed an error, should we substitute Defenders for the listed Aegii?
cheers,
Gabe
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Probably the cost of refitting them meant no block II upgrades, they were white elephants that were falling behind with the times.
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Probably the cost of refitting them meant no block II upgrades, they were white elephants that were falling behind with the times.
It maybe a white elephant on the cost to build them, but the FedSuns keeps recommissioning them as flagships. Their still powerful and fast units. I would think it be worth their time to refit a Block II version to least carry DropShips! At minimum convert those 20K DropShuttle Bays to Fighter Bays add an additional Fighter capacity make them act as fighter-carriers. From the looks at the fleet listing, their dedicated carriers (formerly Strike Cruiser-Carriers) maybe not as numerous. Fighters would be key in any battle in Aerospace engagement, specially in Star League Era, where anti-fighter defenses are at minimum on least Star League designs.
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I would think it be worth their time to refit a Block II version to least carry DropShips!
Good LORD, no. Given how intertwined Docking Collars are with a ship's K-F drive, that would probably entail tearing the whole ship apart and putting it back together again, likely with a large part of it then being all-new parts.
I got nothing against a Block II, but those would probably have to be all-new hulls, not refits.
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Good LORD, no. Given how intertwined Docking Collars are with a ship's K-F drive, that would probably entail tearing the whole ship apart and putting it back together again, likely with a large part of it then being all-new parts.
I got nothing against a Block II, but those would probably have to be all-new hulls, not refits.
So converting the DropShuttle Bays to Fighter Bays would be out of the question?
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That would probably be much easier, though I can't say anything for certain, given that we have zero useful data on the use and operation of DropShuttle bays.
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That would probably be much easier, though I can't say anything for certain, given that we have zero useful data on the use and operation of DropShuttle bays.
Funny thing is, (i don't have access at moment to my e-books) but one of the FR2765 WarShips has both Drop Collars and the DropShuttle Bays. One of the destroyers, it could be League Block II, but i can't look at it at the moment.
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Definitely the League-class, as I put them there intentionally. The idea was that the Houses were still firmly in the DropShuttle phase of space flight, but info on this era puts the Free Worlds League at the forefront of K-F research in these early years. The Hegemony may have gotten there first, but the Mariks would not be far behind. The League DD bays and collars are meant to show how the FWL is ahead of the game relative to the other non-Terran powers in adopting Docking Collars, but since even their navy would still have plenty of DropShuttles in inventory, a hybrid carrier makes sense. Other nations are still stuck with DropShuttles and the Terrans are well on the way to going all-DropShip, but the FWLN of this era has the luxury of being able to use both.
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Good LORD, no. Given how intertwined Docking Collars are with a ship's K-F drive, that would probably entail tearing the whole ship apart and putting it back together again, likely with a large part of it then being all-new parts.
I got nothing against a Block II, but those would probably have to be all-new hulls, not refits.
At the very least, they could've replaced the armour with ferro-carbide to make the ship a bit tougher.
It really must've been interesting to see a Defender take on a Soyal, if such a thing ever happened. A Warship with the movement profile of a Stuka vs. one with SI higher than anything the SLDF fielded and one of the scariest (if limited) main guns going.
cheers,
Gabe
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Why did this ship never get a Block II rebuild, like the Davion and Robinson did?
As I said in another thread, this ship is more of a "pursuit" cruiser, like the Kimagure, and like the Cameron was supposed to be. Perhaps the SLDF kept the Defender in mind when considering the Kimagure? "Well, the Davion boat's execution sucked, but the concept...actually some merit there..."
When was the Aegis reactivated and distributed to the House navies? I ask this because in Historical: Reunification War, the orders of battle for the Davion navy have them fielding Aegii(??) before (I remember) they were supposed to have received them.
If this is indeed an error, should we substitute Defenders for the listed Aegii?
cheers,
Gabe
In reverse order.
The Aegis were reactivated in the 2500s prior to the Reunification war by several decades. Note these were the original format Aegis.
The Pursuit Cruiser concept is deeply flawed. No one wants to pursue anyone at 2G+ for any length of time. Yet designers feel the need to keep pushing the limits because the rules say you can.
In general 5/8 is useless for a capital ship. You don't need it in line tactics, and in single ship actions the slower ship can usually turn to keep its broadside bared. 5/8 only becomes useful if you get the range under 6 hexes because at those ranges you can start consistently targeting the enemy's weak arcs. Conceptually the Defender is based on the idea that you can use the thrust to close the range and cause havoc. Pick your targets and this is very true. The Kimigure is based on the idea that you can use your thrust to maintain 41+ hex range. This is less tenable, though probably safer.
It maybe a white elephant on the cost to build them, but the FedSuns keeps recommissioning them as flagships. Their still powerful and fast units. I would think it be worth their time to refit a Block II version to least carry DropShips! At minimum convert those 20K DropShuttle Bays to Fighter Bays add an additional Fighter capacity make them act as fighter-carriers. From the looks at the fleet listing, their dedicated carriers (formerly Strike Cruiser-Carriers) maybe not as numerous. Fighters would be key in any battle in Aerospace engagement, specially in Star League Era, where anti-fighter defenses are at minimum on least Star League designs.
Come on. :) You have been around long enough to not buy the myth of minimal Star League anti-fighter defences.
The Davions have no shortage of collars to carry Vengeances on. Not to mention their half dozen New Syrtis. Defenders are big and sexy and pack more grunt than a Davion II. I can point you to half a dozen web sites demanding the reactivation of the Iowas for something as obsolete as naval gunfire support. It is not that hard to see these ships yo-yo-ing in and out of mothballs.
At the very least, they could've replaced the armour with ferro-carbide to make the ship a bit tougher.
It really must've been interesting to see a Defender take on a Soyal, if such a thing ever happened. A Warship with the movement profile of a Stuka vs. one with SI higher than anything the SLDF fielded and one of the scariest (if limited) main guns going.
cheers,
Gabe
Soyal wins. It is all about the armour. Not the main gun.
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Come on. :) You have been around long enough to not buy the myth of minimal Star League anti-fighter defences.
The Davions have no shortage of collars to carry Vengeance's on. Not to mention their half dozen New Syrtis. Defenders are big and sexy and pack more grunt than a Davion II. I can point you to half a dozen web sites demanding the reactivation of the Iowas for something as obsolete as naval gunfire support. It is not that hard to see these ships yo-yo-ing in and out of mothballs.
Soyal wins. It is all about the armour. Not the main gun.
I'm aware of the Bracket Fire abilities of the Star League navy. I didn't really remember it off top my head. ^-^
Well, funny you say that....
If your going compare to do a Defender in comparison to the Iowa thing.
The Iowa were proposed to be converted into a Battleship/Carrier as well.
(http://www.combatreform.org/BBG21overheadviewminigavinsloadingintoCH53ECH47Ftn.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/chuckmyersBBG21interdictionassaultship.jpg)
Heck they wanted to convert the uncompleted Kentucky into a missile Hybrid Battleship/Guided Missile Ship.
Personally, I'm still getting used to the fact that Vengeance is more available than before, since it was generally assumed the ships were unavailable prior to break out up of the Star League.
Also, I'm not aware that the FedSuns or the other Great Houses were able to use bracket fire ability outside of the SLDF.
That being said, with surprising low number of New Syrtis being available, I'd have agree its only way to go. Having a rare Defender , with additional Aerospace fighters to fight Kuritan or Capellan forces to me would be ideal given how the entire Davion's main fleet got wiped out in the first war in that Jutland-like battle between the Combine and them. Having more fighter capacity would be useful I would imagine. Either that, or go conversion like a Robinson Transport, convert that DropShuttle Capacity to a BattleMech gantry and additional shuttle bay pick up the Mechs after dropping a Battalion worth of Mechs and provide fire-support! Hopefully the remaining XTRO: Primitives Vols will include a DropShuttle or Mini-Primitive DropShip aka Shuttle that beefer than Ares for its time. That's bothersome not having that missing link. I remember Long March campaign having such ships being used attack each other with.
Thanks for responding to my jabbering!
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A DropShuttle would be nice to fill the missing link between the Old WarShips and ground forces.
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It's starting to seem like the Fed Suns was the only power without a "modern" vessel class that could serve as a flagship at the outbreak of the 1st Succession War. Right now, it's ironically the Capellans that have the biggest one, and the most modern. (The fact that the Fed Suns was still using a class of the same generation as the Dreadnought, unable to accommodate Dropships, seems to indicate just how much they really valued/understood their navy. )
Actually, we haven't seen FR:2765 for the Lyrans yet. Would they have used Tharkads as their flagships, or did they have something bigger still?
cheers,
Gabe
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Actually, we haven't seen FR:2765 for the Lyrans yet. Would they have used Tharkads as their flagships, or did they have something bigger still?
A small moon perhaps? ^-^
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A small moon perhaps? ^-^
Okay, we all know somebody has to now, so let me get that out of the way:
"That's no moon..."
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I'm actually betting on a smaller ship. Like the Mariks, the Lyrans got a good and modern heavy ship in 3075/57u, so I think that like the Mariks, they'll get a mid-sized workhorse, like a frigate or something. Between the Tharkads, Makos, and the usual 'pre-loved' Terran stuff, a middleweight would round out their fleet quite nicely.
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A small moon perhaps? ^-^
With a heavy mass driver?
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Someday we'll get something with a heavy driver...and on that day, I will go golfing for Levs.
I will probably fail spectacularly.
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Someday we'll get something with a heavy driver...and on that day, I will go golfing for Levs.
I will probably fail spectacularly.
Plan B, ask for a record sheet for the Erinyes?
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It's starting to seem like the Fed Suns was the only power without a "modern" vessel class that could serve as a flagship at the outbreak of the 1st Succession War. Right now, it's ironically the Capellans that have the biggest one, and the most modern. (The fact that the Fed Suns was still using a class of the same generation as the Dreadnought, unable to accommodate Dropships, seems to indicate just how much they really valued/understood their navy. )
Actually, we haven't seen FR:2765 for the Lyrans yet. Would they have used Tharkads as their flagships, or did they have something bigger still?
cheers,
Gabe
The Suns have a heavy carrier. What more do they need?
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The Suns have a heavy carrier. What more do they need?
a warship with a ram prow and all its useful mass invested in SI and armor?
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a warship with a ram prow and all its useful mass invested in SI and armor?
Call it the Ben-Hur
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I haven't seen the states on the Defender yet but from what has been said I an see a Block II version dropping a point of speed for more SI and better armor and more of it just for starters.
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It's starting to seem like the Fed Suns was the only power without a "modern" vessel class that could serve as a flagship at the outbreak of the 1st Succession War. Right now, it's ironically the Capellans that have the biggest one, and the most modern. (The fact that the Fed Suns was still using a class of the same generation as the Dreadnought, unable to accommodate Dropships, seems to indicate just how much they really valued/understood their navy. )
Actually, we haven't seen FR:2765 for the Lyrans yet. Would they have used Tharkads as their flagships, or did they have something bigger still?
cheers,
Gabe
Well, Commonwealth Class WarShip could be anything. Lyrans have as far built ships, Mako Corvettes and the Tharkad Class Battlecruisers That would mean that the Commonwealth must either been rather good multirole 1st gen ship or the Lyran economy was at its peak to afford a fleet of WarShips and Commonwealth was a bad prototype like the Defender was (not i'm saying i was, it was properly a fluff problem not mechanical.)
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For all the lamenting here the original sourcebook noted the Golden Lion managing to put in a magnificent performance at Cholame. AFFS Admiral Jones was quite the reincarnation of Nelson right down to the "dying in his finest hour" part.
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For all the lamenting here the original sourcebook noted the Golden Lion managing to put in a magnificent performance at Cholame. AFFS Admiral Jones was quite the reincarnation of Nelson right down to the "dying in his finest hour" part.
Well, we all know how well fluff is borne out when subjected to actual tabletop/computerized testing. While I haven't seen the stats, given that even the Defender's creator refers to it as "soft", I can't see the Golden Lion lasting that long in a major naval engagement unless it suddenly developed a Morgan Kell-like "Phantom Ship" ability, making it even harder to hit beyond the usual ECM and evasive maneuver modifiers.
cheers,
Gabe
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Yet it is canon. So the Golden Lion's Crowning Moment of Awesome happened :)
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Cholame is easy ti figure out. One Defender against a Kurita navy is meat. But what if there were more than one, and Golden Lion is simply the more well-known of the two? And since they were accompanied by the bulk of the Davion fleet, they had Congress-Ds and Davion IIs providing support, fighter cover from New Syrtises, Vampires launching boarding actions, Achilles darting every which way...the only word I have to describe such a formation is chainsaw-chucks.
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Cholame is easy ti figure out. One Defender against a Kurita navy is meat. But what if there were more than one, and Golden Lion is simply the more well-known of the two? And since they were accompanied by the bulk of the Davion fleet, they had Congress-Ds and Davion IIs providing support, fighter cover from New Syrtises, Vampires launching boarding actions, Achilles darting every which way...the only word I have to describe such a formation is chainsaw-chucks.
According to the fluff, the Golden Lion's fleet its been assigned to from what understand has two Defenders in it.
However, wasn't the Cholame entire navy combined going at the Kuritas? Means entire shooting match, with maybe couple stragglers and at least one New Syrtise missing/surviving the show.
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I haven't seen the states on the Defender yet but from what has been said I an see a Block II version dropping a point of speed for more SI and better armor and more of it just for starters.
Changing engines on a WarShip is not like swapping out the engine on your Ford Pickup, or even your Atlas. The engine makes up a significant part of the ship and structure. It would be more like ripping the frame and engine out from under your Ford and trying to squash the body onto the frame of a VW Bug.
At that point you're not at a Block II, you're at a new WarShip.
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It would be more like ripping the frame and engine out from under your Ford and trying to squash the body onto the frame of a VW Bug.
*cough* *cough*
It (http://www.bobbygeorges.com/stuff/ghia/ghia.html) can be done (http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-boxster/kharmann-ghia-body-boxster/) with some work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5cFMwubwJ8), though Porsches tend to be donors more often, and Chevy 350s (http://collectorcarpricetracker.com/auctions/detail/150393265953/) are way more common than Fords shoved into Bugs. Paul Newman's V8 Bug (http://www.extravaganzi.com/paul-newmans-1963-volkswagen-v8-beetle-convertible-offered-for-sale-at-250000/) would be an example, though, of a Ford V8 in a Beetle.
Maybe not the best example? ;)
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Car comparisons are way, wayyyy off scale anyway. "O hai, we thought your nuclear aircraft carrier needed a complete reactor redesign..." probably comes closer.
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Cholame is easy ti figure out. One Defender against a Kurita navy is meat. But what if there were more than one, and Golden Lion is simply the more well-known of the two? And since they were accompanied by the bulk of the Davion fleet, they had Congress-Ds and Davion IIs providing support, fighter cover from New Syrtises, Vampires launching boarding actions, Achilles darting every which way...the only word I have to describe such a formation is chainsaw-chucks.
Both sides had more than 100 WarShips, 100+ DropShips and "clouds of aerospace fighters" at Cholame. The FSN had hit more than 10 systems before this battle, so they're guaranteed to be exhausted, out of ammo, and pretty banged up. The DCA had a fresh fleet with equal or slightly superior numbers. A few ships escaped, along with the small minority of the FSN that weren't drafted into the task force. The Golden Lion darted between the system jump points for six weeks before getting destroyed. This battle was almost 3 times as long as Robsart but a glass cannon like the Golden Lion had the stamina for it 8)
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Both sides had more than 100 WarShips, 100+ DropShips and "clouds of aerospace fighters" at Cholame. The FSN had hit more than 10 systems before this battle, so they're guaranteed to be exhausted, out of ammo, and pretty banged up. The DCA had a fresh fleet with equal or slightly superior numbers. A few ships escaped, along with the small minority of the FSN that weren't drafted into the task force. The Golden Lion darted between the system jump points for six weeks before getting destroyed. This battle was almost 3 times as long as Robsart but a glass cannon like the Golden Lion had the stamina for it 8)
Well, statistics isn't an exact predictive science. Sure, on average, or possibly even in the vast majority of cases, you'd expect the "glass cannon" to live up to its reputation and shatter...but we've got entire threads on this very board dedicated to the exceptions to just those expectations.
Or in other words, maybe the Dracs targeting the Golden Lion were simply rolling the longest string of snake eyes in recorded history. ;)
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Or in other words, maybe the Dracs targeting the Golden Lion were simply rolling the longest string of snake eyes in recorded history. ;)
A better thought: Maybe the Dracs were targeting the Lion for destruction, and the Davions used that to their advantage. Get people focused on that one ship, draw them out in a pursuit, and when someone is so fixated that they see little else, slam 'em in the flank with Davvy IIs and Congrii. }:)
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One wishes that. But are the Dracs so dumb? They were quite the killing machine under Jinjiro, and this was before Kentares.
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Not all of them or even most of them, of course not. That trick would only work once or twice. But if the Davions were as outclassed as you imply, pulling something like that can even the odds more than a bit, and explain how Cholame was the draw it was, as opposed to a Palmyra-style rout.
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Sounds like a fun fight
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Yup. Cholame and other desparate fleet fights are why I'm most looking forward to when CGL gets around to the early Succession Wars. >:D
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Yup. Cholame and other desparate fleet fights are why I'm most looking forward to when CGL gets around to the early Succession Wars. >:D
+1
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Not all of them or even most of them, of course not. That trick would only work once or twice. But if the Davions were as outclassed as you imply, pulling something like that can even the odds more than a bit, and explain how Cholame was the draw it was, as opposed to a Palmyra-style rout.
I'm guessing maybe ASF had a bigger role to play in this battle? Since both sides fielded carriers it would depend on how many Syrtis and Samarkands were there.
Yup. Cholame and other desparate fleet fights are why I'm most looking forward to when CGL gets around to the early Succession Wars. >:D
I think the only fleet fights in the 1st SW was Cholame and the ones along the FWL-LC-DC front, which only accounts for the wiping out of 4 fleets. Still have no idea how the Capellans lost their fleet unless it was in a piecemeal fashion.
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I'm guessing maybe ASF had a bigger role to play in this battle? Since both sides fielded carriers it would depend on how many Syrtis and Samarkands were there.
While I don't doubt that fighters were important, I really have to figure out your logic. How did you go from 'Dracs weren't stupid, so the Defenders can't have killed all of them' to 'it was a carrier fight'? There has to have been more than a few mental steps between them.
I think the only fleet fights in the 1st SW was Cholame and the ones along the FWL-LC-DC front, which only accounts for the wiping out of 4 fleets. Still have no idea how the Capellans lost their fleet unless it was in a piecemeal fashion.
Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the 1SW was marked by large FWL naval victories on the Capellan front, that the Liao navy was largely decimated there. No notable battles mentioned, it was just a series of reversals across the entire front.
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Not all of them or even most of them, of course not. That trick would only work once or twice. But if the Davions were as outclassed as you imply, pulling something like that can even the odds more than a bit, and explain how Cholame was the draw it was, as opposed to a PalmyraTentativa-style rout.
Fixed for you given the context ^-^ ;D
And remember, the Combine navy had enough ships to get involved in a second such furball--vs. the Lyrans at Skondia.
cheers,
Gabe
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A better thought: Maybe the Dracs were targeting the Lion for destruction, and the Davions used that to their advantage. Get people focused on that one ship, draw them out in a pursuit, and when someone is so fixated that they see little else, slam 'em in the flank with Davvy IIs and Congrii. }:)
Sure, but in order for the Golden Lion to have lasted as long as it did, the Dracs would have to be missing consistently if they were going after it like you suggest.
And the whole jumping back and forth between jump points...how could it do that without LF batteries?
cheers,
Gabe
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Well, from what I'm reading in this thread, the battle lasted several weeks. Last I knew, it didn't take several weeks for a warship to jump somewhere.
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Sure, but in order for the Golden Lion to have lasted as long as it did, the Dracs would have to be missing consistently if they were going after it like you suggest.
That's not as odd as you'd think. Remember: the rules may call a particular range bracket Medium Range, but really, it's point-blank range. The Defender has more than enough thrust to make sure that most opponents don't get any closer than long range, and also has thrust to burn towards evasive maneuvers at the same time. Assuming you can keep enemy fighters and DropShips off of it using your own, finishing off a Defender that doesn't want to die can take a VERY long time. And you do have to hunt it down, because even if Davion's real strength is in their powerful midweight ships, a Defender that isn't kept under constant pressure can immediately swing around and gut just about anything the Kuritans have flying.
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It helps the Davion cause that the Kuritans appear from what I remember of them to have a lighter fleet which could have contributed to the Defenders ability to live long enough to effect change
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You know, i just notices something. The Battle of Cholame was mentioned in the old House Davion (Federated Suns) source book, the source book (yeah, everything get retconned due to new sources) shows the battle for Cholame happened in 2790. It says that the Golden Lion was under the command of Admiral Kenneth Jones, where it was tasked with task force enter Kurita occupied Davion worlds and resupply resistance.
When the task force enter Cholame, it was jumped by waiting Kurita forces which were not reported to be any in that system.
The Defender's fluff indicated that the Battle happened in 2787, it blunted attack not an ambush setted for Davions. A battle that lasted six weeks in the original fluff, that grew over time. Not a battle suddenly happened. Is this a retcon?
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Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the 1SW was marked by large FWL naval victories on the Capellan front, that the Liao navy was largely decimated there. No notable battles mentioned, it was just a series of reversals across the entire front.
That would be the failed Devlin Solution mk 2 on Calloway VI in 2789. While none of the older House books or the newer Handbooks mention WarShips, all indicate the Capellan naval losses were staggering and that the loss of the cream of the Capellan navy meant that Marik WarShips could now easily brush aside Capellan naval blockades on numerous worlds.
As for the League and Lyran analogue of the Battle of Cholame, its likely the Third Battle of Hesperus II in 2789specifically mentioned as a bloody engagement that wrecked the fleets of both sides.
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While I don't doubt that fighters were important, I really have to figure out your logic. How did you go from 'Dracs weren't stupid, so the Defenders can't have killed all of them' to 'it was a carrier fight'? There has to have been more than a few mental steps between them.
Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the 1SW was marked by large FWL naval victories on the Capellan front, that the Liao navy was largely decimated there. No notable battles mentioned, it was just a series of reversals across the entire front.
Honestly I didn't perform those mental steps "in between". I just looked at what each side had and drew conclusions from it. Jinjiro was remarked as the genius behind the whole front-wide offensive on New Avalon. So his hand-picked underlings, especially the one who was given the task to ambush the Suns fleet at Cholame after preparations had been meticulously made there beforehand, wouldn't be stupid at all. Then looking at the known WarShip classes from each side, Samarkands and New Syrtises were very prominent, the former being lightweight enough to be mass-produced and the latter being the core of FSN fleet doctrine since the end of the Age of War. However, at this point I should add that the Hegemony ships purchased by both sides in unknown numbers are a potentially-major factor during this battle.
The FWLS Devastator was some kind of heavy capital ship(IIRC battlecruiser) bought from the Hegemony that ended up leading FWLN contingent in that brutal slugging match over Hesperus. Don't think the Hegemony ever sold their older BBs, but the Dracs could have a few Hegemony capital ships at Cholame too.
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You know, i just notices something. The Battle of Cholame was mentioned in the old House Davion (Federated Suns) source book, the source book (yeah, everything get retconned due to new sources) shows the battle for Cholame happened in 2790. It says that the Golden Lion was under the command of Admiral Kenneth Jones, where it was tasked with task force enter Kurita occupied Davion worlds and resupply resistance.
When the task force enter Cholame, it was jumped by waiting Kurita forces which were not reported to be any in that system.
The Defender's fluff indicated that the Battle happened in 2787, it blunted attack not an ambush setted for Davions. A battle that lasted six weeks in the original fluff, that grew over time. Not a battle suddenly happened. Is this a retcon?
Read again what the Defender fluff says: "The Defender-class FSS Golden Lion would even go on to earn lasting fame for its role in blunting the Draconis Combine’s 2787 advance against House Davion."
The Combine's attack on the Suns at the beginning of the 1st SW was a multi-year campaign that began in 2787. The above text doesn't say that Cholame occurs in 2787, it just notes the date the Combine's attack began. It's perhaps unclear, but the wording doesn't invalidate any prior sourcebook.
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The FWLS Devastator was some kind of heavy capital ship(IIRC battlecruiser) bought from the Hegemony that ended up leading FWLN contingent in that brutal slugging match over Hesperus. Don't think the Hegemony ever sold their older BBs, but the Dracs could have a few Hegemony capital ships at Cholame too.
My guess is that the Devastator is that Soyal they bought from the Capellans before the 1st SW erupted, the name obviously reflecting the hope they'd be able to put that mass driver to use against the Lyrans' Tharkads.
Seriously, I don't think the Terrans ever considered selling anything over 800K tons to the other states--they would rather see their Monsoons and Farraguts go to the breakers than end up in other fleets.
cheers,
Gabe
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My guess is that the Devastator is that Soyal they bought from the Capellans before the 1st SW erupted, the name obviously reflecting the hope they'd be able to put that mass driver to use against the Lyrans' Tharkads.
Seriously, I don't think the Terrans ever considered selling anything over 800K tons to the other states--they would rather see their Monsoons and Farraguts go to the breakers than end up in other fleets.
cheers,
Gabe
Thats true so far, the fluff of the Monsoons were kept in service as along as possible because of generations of crews serving and going on to become commanders of the fleet. Class of ship with that much pride would be scrapped before they sold them to anyone else i would imagine.
I sadly think because the limitation on what is being made. In other words, that any heavy beaters ships that were looming in the fleets of the soon to be Succession States will be existing designs verse additional new museum quality designs (aka 1st generation WarShips) were getting in the Field Reports 2765. I don't remember reading if any of the Star League Navy had defectors who hadn't responded to the call to join Kerensky's Exodus fleet. There must been some, the the state's fleets couldn't be all 2nd-stringer Terran caste off they built or units that were in mothballs for the entire time.
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I was just going to ask that: I imagine there had to be at least a few WarShips that didn't go on the Exodus (though I'd imagine that the larger, more powerful ships would be more likely to have command staffs Kerensky trusted), do we have any information suggesting that any of the Successor States had ex-SLDF WarShips in their armadas?
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The Devastator might have simply been another Black Lion I, like the Confederation's Typhon.
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Maybe, except we know for a fact that the FWL doesn't have any BL1s as of 2765, and given how old those ships are, I don't see anyone building new ones or choosing NOW to dust off any that weren't sold off earlier.
I'm leaning towards Devastator being the Soyal, or possibly A-K's thoughts about SLDF ships. Such a situation is the likeliest explanation for LCS Nightwind, for example.
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Some of the FR: 2765 series have talked about the various Great Houses digging WarShips out of mothballs as a part of their various rearmament programmes - with all those Atreus-class ships floating around, I can see the FWL buying one or more Black Lion Is and then later deciding to mothball them in favour of their Atreus fleet, only to dig them out later as things escalated.
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Okay, that's not a bad idea at all. Don't really see any other house doing that(Unless FR: LCAF gives 'em as many Tharkads as the Mariks got Atreii), but for the League, that's a pretty plausible idea. More foresight than you tend to expect from House Lords, but it happens every so often. Stopped clocks and all that.
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To try and get this slightly back on topic...how many Defenders did the FSN lose in Case Amber? Are the two listed in FR:2765 FS the last two left in existence at that time? No more hiding in mothballs?
cheers,
Gabe
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Zero. Because they didn't field any Defenders as per the ORBAT section of the book.
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Correct. Either the Defenders were among the few FSN ships that did not participate in Case AMBER, or they were still in mothballs at that point and were only reactivated when the Davvys needed more ships to keep up their end of the war. I'm leaning towards the latter, myself.
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Okay, that's not a bad idea at all. Don't really see any other house doing that(Unless FR: LCAF gives 'em as many Tharkads as the Mariks got Atreii), but for the League, that's a pretty plausible idea. More foresight than you tend to expect from House Lords, but it happens every so often. Stopped clocks and all that.
I've just got home and checked the Black Lion I entry, and it talks about most of the original Black Lion Is going into mothballs, being sold to the Great Houses before the Reunification War, then going back into mothballs during the Golden Age, although most were stripped down. We've only got one active Black Lion I as of 2765 so far, and I'm entirely biased - I'd like to see more of them flying around ;)
I wonder how Black Lion Is would perform against Defenders...
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...then going back into mothballs during the Golden Age...
Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.
Honestly, I'd more expect those hulls to end up in RWRN hands. Can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure they did indeed grab a lot of ships like that and put them into service against the SLN.
I wonder how Black Lion Is would perform against Defenders...
Hmm...that's a really good question, actually. Armor is roughly similar, though the Black Lion has a big edge in SI. Black Lion also has the edge in raw firepower, though the Defender can more easily concentrate heavy bays due to its fire arc layout. I'm going to give the Black Lion the advantage due to the fact that its secondary guns also reach Capital Long and because of the solid missile armament, but it's only a slim margin. The Defender's raw speed lets it close the range gap quickly, and the armor levels of both ships are such that you only need to score one or two more hits than the other guy before his ship is in MUCH worse shape than yours. This would actually be a really interesting fight to game out.
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Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.
Honestly, I'd more expect those hulls to end up in RWRN hands. Can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure they did indeed grab a lot of ships like that and put them into service against the SLN.
It was mentioned in Liberation of Terra I in the RWRN fleet breakdown. They bought a lot of hulls from Dick, then absorbed the reserve fleet and mothballs in the Hegemony to replace their Coup losses.
It is highly probable that the Houses salvaged some hulls from both combatants during the Liberation right up till 1st SW. They had "foraging teams" on the ground, makes sense to have such teams in space too. There were also a lot of Newgranges during that time period, and such derelicts was how the FWLN, WoB and C* got their head-start in fleet-building
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It was mentioned in Liberation of Terra I in the RWRN fleet breakdown. They bought a lot of hulls from Dick, then absorbed the reserve fleet and mothballs in the Hegemony to replace their Coup losses.
There we go. While I doubt we'll see the kind fo detailed fleet breakdowns we have for the Houses in the RWR's part of FR: Periphery, we can at least hope of a list of present classes, and if we do I definitely expect to see the BL1 on that list.
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Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.
Just to clarify, as I was being a bit muddy in my previous comments - from FR 2765: CCAF, it was the Great Houses who put the Black Lion Is they'd bought into mothballs while they "streamlined and modernized" their fleets.
Hmm...that's a really good question, actually. Armor is roughly similar, though the Black Lion has a big edge in SI. Black Lion also has the edge in raw firepower, though the Defender can more easily concentrate heavy bays due to its fire arc layout. I'm going to give the Black Lion the advantage due to the fact that its secondary guns also reach Capital Long and because of the solid missile armament, but it's only a slim margin. The Defender's raw speed lets it close the range gap quickly, and the armor levels of both ships are such that you only need to score one or two more hits than the other guy before his ship is in MUCH worse shape than yours. This would actually be a really interesting fight to game out.
You know you want to play it out. Go on, succumb to the dark side... and post a report or two O0
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You think playing out a space game is 'succumbing' for me? :)
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/c8b5019f8e71041171acd30cf2e4fdf0/tumblr_ms1mt50VlU1r8c4p2o1_400.gif)
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to play it at work! >:D
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I'd be tempted to game this out with someone...then I realize I haven't played in two years. At least.
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Given that aside from the name and faction who were built them, 1st generation ships at time of Historical: Reunification War properly wasn't even stated out. Thus why, mention a unstated and unpublished design in a sourcebook?
I like the idea of them being reactivated near the end of the War, given that Taurian's fleet was playing hit-and-run games due to their dimenished numbers i don't know if they even bothered at that point. SLDF's fleet was properly doing most of the leg work.
There another factor to consider. We don't know how may WarShips exisited during that time period. We know basically the design that existed, but thats it. Given way the fluff of the newly released 1st gen WarShips suggest, the Great Houses properly didn't have as many as we would like. Davys had a Civil War prior to the confict, its possible one or more of the six Defenders was lost in that conflict. Specially they didn't have some of their more advance designs. Lessons of the Civil War lead to the Davion Block II ships, which suggests in my mind that Davion Is and properly the Defenders were involved with that conflict.
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Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to play it at work! >:D
I have visions of you at your desk, whittling models for the WarShips out of soap stolen from the mens' room...
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I'd take you up on that, except that we use liquid soap around here. :-[
On the other hand, I'm stuck at work with nothing to do but be here 'just in case' in a mostly empty office for 12 hours, and I don't even think my boss is likely to show up. Brought a hex map, and I keep dice here at all times anyway. I just might get some productive use out of this day after all... >:D
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Exxxxcellent.
Now, what can I do to convince you to write a Historical Turning Point: Kentares supplement, detailing the various battles for control of Kentares between the Terran Hegemony and the Federated Suns during the Age of War? After all, there must've been Defenders and other FedSuns WarShips squaring off against Hegemony WarShips then...
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I doubt that. Kentares seemed more like ground slugging matches.
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...and since I'm near a computer the whole time, I figure I'll 'liveblog' this, as it were. Setup is 1 Defender(173,687 BV) vs 1 Black Lion 1(119,805 BV), both with 4/5 crews. No escorts or small craft at all, just the 2 ships. Map is 43x24 hexes, smaller than I'd like but there are practical limitations(such as the size of the desk and the mapsheet). Rules are...everything I can think of. Ships are placed on opposite corners of the map, with initial bearings and velocities towards each other, equal to their safe thrust.
Turn 1:
FSS Manly Beard wins initiative, so CCS Twirling Moustache must go first. Aiming to keep the range open, Twirling Moustache turns to port and presents his broadside. Manly Beard wants to close quickly, so uses full thrust to accelerate hard, sideslip to keep Twirling Moustache, and evade to hopefully minimize the damage taken this round.
Ships are now 29 hexes apart, Manly Beard's bow pointed at Twirling Moustache's broadside.
Twirling Moustache fires first, needing 11s and 9s. Most of the NACs miss, but the one 60-pt that does hit strikes true with a 12 on Manly Beard's fore-right quarter, stripping the armor, and succeeding with one of two crit rolls against a thruster. Both missile flights hit, striking the bow but failing to damage anything.
Manly Beard's return fire is predictably difficult with 11s, and she fails to hit anything.
Twirling Moustache plots some Bearings-only shots, and sends them down to the missile crews.
Turn 2
Twirling Moustache loses initiative again, so continues to burn along his present course, but swings his bow over to bring more missiles to bear. Manly Beard has the somewhat meta advantage of living in the same skull as her opponent(though I'm not looking at the written-down numbers), and so accelerates slightly while swinging her bow around to protect her damaged facings. No evasion now, that time has passed. Range is now 13 hexes.
Twirling Moustache fires his preplotted missiles, and at this range they go active almost immediately. Manly Beard's acceleration proved prescient as three of the four flights fly harmlessly past with no targets in their forward arc, but the final group goes active with a battlecruiser's bulk dead ahead, and so close a WWII fighter could hit it. Even with minimum range modifiers, the missiles bore in unerringly, driven off course by point-defense guns only at the last moment. Cannon fire proves just as unlucky despite the close range, with only a single antifighter bay scraping some paint off the target. (Seriously. Needed 7s for all the NACs and 9s for the smaller stuff, and only a single AC/2 bay hit. >:() Manly Beard's return fire is much more accurate, destroying armor all along her target's starboard quarters(stripping the aft quarter completely) and crippling a grav deck.
Turn 3:
Manly Beard must go first this time, continuing her swing while burning hard to avoid flying right off the map. Twirling Moustache is content to simply drift for the moment, his only maneuver a roll along his X axis. Despite the pounding these WarShips have taken thus far, both are now presented with fresh armor.
Manly Beard unleashes her broadside, and manages to concentrate her shots in a way that stabs deep into Twirling Moustache's flank and silences multiple small cannon bays. The Capellan battlecruiser's response is simply lethal. Determined to show their superiority over their comrades who were literally unable to hit the broad side of a 960-kiloton barn, the portside crews earn themselves multiple medals(and a LOT of shore leave) by not only hitting the ship, but also stacking their shells right on top of each other. Manly Beard's fore-left may have been fresh armor, but 160 Capital damage to one facing is simply more than any part of a Defender-class can take, and the mighty vessel snaps in two!
Winner: Black Lion 1 BC CCS Twirling Moustache. Total damage to the vessel consists of 34 damage to the fore-right armor, complete loss of aft-left and aft-right armor, and 13 SI damage. The K-F drive has taken 2 points of damage, Grav Deck #1 has been destroyed, and two of the conventional bays on the left broadside are disabled.
Loser: Defender BC FSS Manly Beard. Total damage to the vessel consists of 24 damage to nose armor, complete loss of fore-left and fore-right armor, and complete loss of structural integrity. The K-F drive has taken 1 point of damage, and the right thruster bank has taken a single hit.
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I doubt that. Kentares seemed more like ground slugging matches.
According to House Davion (The Federated Suns) the Prince of the Terran March spent eight years trying to recapture Kentares IV after the initial six-month campaign that saw the planet captured by the Terran Hegemony.
More importantly - dude, don't harsh my buzz when I'm trying to get us a naval-heavy HTP involving the Federated Suns and Terran Hegemony written by *Weirdo* - don't you want to see all those Age of War WarShips squaring off against each other?
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Eh, despite my loquacity on these forums, I'm no writer. My wife's the author between us, and she's more into actual stories, not sourcebook fluff and scenarios.
Besides, what ship classes *were* active at the time of Kentares? A lot of the AoW House ships we have arrive pretty late in that era.
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Well, the six-month campaign was fought in 2431, so the Prince of the Terran March fought using Terran March forces up until 2439. A quick check says that the following were around between the Hegemony and the Federated Suns:
Dreadnought
Dart
Bonaventure
Vigilant
Lola
Quixote
Monsoon
Aegis
Tracker
Vincent
Plus the Defender and Black Lion I.
That does rather give the Hegemony all the toys. Unless the FedSuns had access to other early WarShips we don't know about - it seems odd that they'd build the Defender in 2360 and then nothing else until the Davion I in 2510.
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They'd have more. Remember, the Cruiser-class was retired and sold off to the Houses in 2405. Seems reasonable that the Davions would have some in 2431.
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They'd have more. Remember, the Cruiser-class was retired and sold off to the Houses in 2405. Seems reasonable that the Davions would have some in 2431.
They sold them that soon? That seems to be odd move since they're in competition with those nations in the most part.
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They had the Dart and Aegis-classes by then, and hated the Cruiser. I guess they figured that if they sold the Cruisers to the Houses, that's what they'd be facing instead of homegrown ships that might be better, and they knew they could beat Cruisers easily. Devil you know, and all that. Also, there was always the chance of selling to one House to keep another off-balance and focused on their neighbor instead of the Terrans.
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It's interesting to note that at this point, the Combine had Narukami, the Capellans Du Shi Wangs and the Taurians Winchesters - it looks like the Hegemony had a big head start in WarShip production for well over a century ahead of the other Great Houses. It makes me wonder about those primitive armed JumpShips and how much of a threat they represented to early WarShips.
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According to House Davion (The Federated Suns) the Prince of the Terran March spent eight years trying to recapture Kentares IV after the initial six-month campaign that saw the planet captured by the Terran Hegemony.
More importantly - dude, don't harsh my buzz when I'm trying to get us a naval-heavy HTP involving the Federated Suns and Terran Hegemony written by *Weirdo* - don't you want to see all those Age of War WarShips squaring off against each other?
By all means, carry on then. I won't be a party crasher :)
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Winner: Black Lion 1 BC CCS Twirling Moustache. Total damage to the vessel consists of 34 damage to the fore-right armor, complete loss of aft-left and aft-right armor, and 13 SI damage. The K-F drive has taken 2 points of damage, Grav Deck #1 has been destroyed, and two of the conventional bays on the left broadside are disabled.
Loser: Defender BC FSS Manly Beard. Total damage to the vessel consists of 24 damage to nose armor, complete loss of fore-left and fore-right armor, and complete loss of structural integrity. The K-F drive has taken 1 point of damage, and the right thruster bank has taken a single hit.
Sounds typical. A NAC or two either way.
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Yeah. At these armor levels, a little luck goes a long way. Had Twirling Moustache actually connected with anything in turn 2, the fight could have ended right there. Same if Manly Beard had ever dropped a decent amount of firepower more than once.
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Can't wait to see a rematch with proper screening elements this time around.
The only real way to determine how this battle would go down is to throw in the small craft/ASFs, dropships/shuttles, and the other escort elements would play into the main fight.
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True, but that's not something I'm going to do vs myself in an office.
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True, but that's not something I'm going to do vs myself in an office.
Understood, I got to get VhenRa, to run this battle in Megamek, minus bearing only launches (Not implemented), point defense (Not implemented), and Newtonian movement (Way to hard to do for a perpetual aerospace newbie for me).
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So, I was reading through Jellico's fantastic article on 3145 assault Dropships, and I came across the section on high-speed passes. This must be a new rule that came into effect after I stopped playing AT2 (has it really been 7 years?).
If I understand correctly, wouldn't the Defender be especially devastating if firing its NACs while making a high-speed pass?
cheers,
Gabe
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To simulate the effects of a high speed pass, take record sheets from all involved units and feed them into a paper shredder.
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To simulate the effects of a high speed pass, take record sheets from all involved units and feed them into a paper shredder.
Nah, that's the advanced rule for relativistic encounters. :D (Seriously, the last paragraph on Strategic Operations p. 85 basically says so.)
For anything slow enough to still be somewhat interesting to play out while still being too fast for both sides to just stop and engage each other by more normal rules on available thrust, though, StratOps does provide several pages of actual rules before then. And yes, in those engagements the damage inflicted by missile and ballistic weapons that manage to hit does go up (from 50% extra up to four times normal depending on the speed of the encounter). The opposite holds true in high-speed chases, though; it's possible for the same weapons to be utterly useless then because their projectiles just wouldn't catch up with their targets.
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If I understand correctly, wouldn't the Defender be especially devastating if firing its NACs while making a high-speed pass?
You are correct. A high-speed salvo from a Defender would likely go through anything short of a Pavise in a way best described as a hot chainsaw through butter. Of course, unless your enemy has a mostly energy-based armament, the return fire would be just as nasty.
To simulate the effects of a high speed pass, take record sheets from all involved units and feed them into a paper shredder.
I helped write other parts of the high-speed engagements rules, and that's still the part I was happiest to see make it to publication. ;D
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To simulate the effects of a high speed pass, take record sheets from all involved units and feed them into a paper shredder.
We always strive for a nice professional air in our rules. That said, sometimes we just have to recognize the humor inherent in a game system built around big stompy robots. I couldn't bring myself to remove this line that was provided by one of most scientific of our writers.
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You are correct. A high-speed salvo from a Defender would likely go through anything short of a Pavise in a way best described as a hot chainsaw through butter. Of course, unless your enemy has a mostly energy-based armament, the return fire would be just as nasty.
Well, short of a "phantom ship" ability, that's the only way I can see the Golden Lion being able to do what it did at Cholame.
Sure, there are other ships that would be even scarier at high speed--like the Aegis--but the Defender's thrust profile means it can build up the necessary velocity quicker than typical line ships.
cheers,
Gabe
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Well, short of a "phantom ship" ability, that's the only way I can see the Golden Lion being able to do what it did at Cholame.
Sure, there are other ships that would be even scarier at high speed--like the Aegis--but the Defender's thrust profile means it can build up the necessary velocity quicker than typical line ships.
cheers,
Gabe
This is making me wonder how viable this tactic would be in an actual engagement. I feel like a Defender might be able to build up speed for a lethal pass at an opponent mostly armed with energy weapons which it can smash and be gone before its friends can return fire. It also gets the defender behind the enemy battle line which may create opportunities for popping thin skinned support vessels and sowing chaos as they try to respond.
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Well, short of a "phantom ship" ability, that's the only way I can see the Golden Lion being able to do what it did at Cholame.
Sure, there are other ships that would be even scarier at high speed--like the Aegis--but the Defender's thrust profile means it can build up the necessary velocity quicker than typical line ships.
Alternatively, given that the Golden Lion was the flagship of a massive fleet, perhaps it didn't even get to shoot during most of the multi-day battle.
Don't forget that when a Defender gets up to high speed that the damage boost for kinetic weapons works both ways, and Combine vessels like the Narukami and Cruiser bring plenty of NAC damage to the table. Even a high speed pass on a Samarkand is still going to be unpleasant for a glass hammer like the Defender.
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Well, short of a "phantom ship" ability, that's the only way I can see the Golden Lion being able to do what it did at Cholame.
I suspect the use of tactics and strategy.
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Got the stats at last and tossed them HMAero to do a quick bare bones update of the design prior to the 1st SW and it comes out pretty well with just swapping out the standard armor for Improved F-A and removing the drop shuttle and small craft bays for proper fighter bays and 6 drop collars. Had enough tonnage left over to toss in a small 6 craft bay and a Killer Whale tube to the bow and front sides without changing anything else.
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Just give it LameFCarb armor. We know the FSN had access to that technology.
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Got the stats at last and tossed them HMAero to do a quick bare bones update of the design prior to the 1st SW and it comes out pretty well with just swapping out the standard armor for Improved F-A and removing the drop shuttle and small craft bays for proper fighter bays and 6 drop collars. Had enough tonnage left over to toss in a small 6 craft bay and a Killer Whale tube to the bow and front sides without changing anything else.
No way to make a generic - close to the original version of the Defender? I always have problems when i try make a ship.
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The only thing I couldn't do was the drop shuttle bays so I put in everything else and had some 9k tons left over, then made the changes I noted going with the Imp F-A since that's what they had on the Davion version of the Congress.,
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The only thing I couldn't do was the drop shuttle bays so I put in everything else and had some 9k tons left over, then made the changes I noted going with the Imp F-A since that's what they had on the Davion version of the Congress.,
Okay. Thank you, Arvanna.
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Just give it LameFCarb armor. We know the FSN had access to that technology.
Are you sure about that? They had ferro-carbide, yes, but lamellor was used sparingly even by the Terran Hegemony--only on two ship classes (Kimagure and Texas), both made by the same manufacturer IIRC. The FSN of the post-Clan Invasion has lamellor, yes (used magnificently on the Avalon).
I do agree the Defender could have received an armour upgrade (even IFA would make a substantial difference), but the other things would've required structural changes on the order of turning the 2372 Aegis into the SLDF/Clan Aegis (ha ha).
It still boggles my mind why the FSN kept this clearly obsolete ship in service for so long, as flagships no less.
cheers,
Gabe
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If retiring them was no guarantee that you'd be able to obtain replacement hulls that you wouldn't have otherwise, would you?
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Are you sure about that? They had ferro-carbide, yes, but lamellor was used sparingly even by the Terran Hegemony--only on two ship classes (Kimagure and Texas), both made by the same manufacturer IIRC. The FSN of the post-Clan Invasion has lamellor, yes (used magnificently on the Avalon).
I do agree the Defender could have received an armour upgrade (even IFA would make a substantial difference), but the other things would've required structural changes on the order of turning the 2372 Aegis into the SLDF/Clan Aegis (ha ha).
It still boggles my mind why the FSN kept this clearly obsolete ship in service for so long, as flagships no less.
cheers,
Gabe
Oops you are right Gabe. They had ferro-carbide during that time. Still an improvement over IFA or standard though.
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If retiring them was no guarantee that you'd be able to obtain replacement hulls that you wouldn't have otherwise, would you?
It's not just keeping the ships themselves in service, but the Dropshuttles too, when everyone else has gone to standard Dropships and docking collars (and all the other ship classes in your fleet use those), and the need to keep around maintenance facilities just for those idiosyncracies, and to keep training maintenance crews to service those features no other ship retains, and the need to be able to manufacture obsolete parts...etc., etc. Shipyards just wouldn't consider it worth the expense and headache...kind of like that story Cray used to tell about the backup diesel engines on American subs.
So, despite the fact that Defenders may have had a prestige attached to them in the FSN much like that attached to Monsoons by the Terran/SLDF navy, at some point the FS admiralty should've come to realize that the supply and maintenance chain needed to keep those ships serviceable just wasn't worth it.
cheers,
Gabe
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They did. Remember, the Defender's description says they spent most of their time in mothballs, only brought out when they were truly needed.
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It's not just keeping the ships themselves in service, but the Dropshuttles too, when everyone else has gone to standard Dropships and docking collars (and all the other ship classes in your fleet use those), and the need to keep around maintenance facilities just for those idiosyncracies, and to keep training maintenance crews to service those features no other ship retains, and the need to be able to manufacture obsolete parts...etc., etc. Shipyards just wouldn't consider it worth the expense and headache...kind of like that story Cray used to tell about the backup diesel engines on American subs.
You mean the Fairbanks-Morse ND 38 8-1/8, opposed piston two stroke diesel generator? That old thing, but the Auxiliary Division guys who ran it swore by it (or at it).
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It still boggles my mind why the FSN kept this clearly obsolete ship in service for so long, as flagships no less.
Honestly, if you are going to press a large, obsolete ship into service, a flagship is a good use for it because it gives your commander a nice ride to keep him safe while freeing up your capitol ships to engage as needed without risking fleet cohesion.
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Honestly, if you are going to press a large, obsolete ship into service, a flagship is a good use for it because it gives your commander a nice ride to keep him safe while freeing up your capitol ships to engage as needed without risking fleet cohesion.
A nice safe ride for the commander, eh? Well I think I'd want something a bit more durable than a Defender for that purpose.
And as for freeing up capital assets, the Defender, despite its great age, was still the heaviest class in the FSN when the 1st SW broke out, was it not?
cheers,
Gabe
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I don't mind that they kept bringing them back into service but why not make a Block II version somewhere down the line of hundreds of years of use? They did it for the Davion class Destroyer so why not this ship?
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Considering how quickly it was rendered obsolete you would have expected them to have worked up a Block II version rather then simply sit by while the other Houses fielded newer , big ships. I mean they retired the Block I Davions and replaced them with the Block IIs as well as fielding other new classes. Just getting by with Terran left overs for heavies is stupid, building your own capital ships then was a matter of national pride and with the Capellans fielding their own battleship I can't see the Suns not fielding at least a modernized battle cruiser to offset that.
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Considering how quickly it was rendered obsolete you would have expected them to have worked up a Block II version rather then simply sit by while the other Houses fielded newer , big ships. I mean they retired the Block I Davions and replaced them with the Block IIs as well as fielding other new classes. Just getting by with Terran left overs for heavies is stupid, building your own capital ships then was a matter of national pride and with the Capellans fielding their own battleship I can't see the Suns not fielding at least a modernized battle cruiser to offset that.
Technically they did. It's called a New Syrtis. ;) Seriously, basing a new class off of the New Syrtis, dropping all the fighters and small craft for other things (extra guns, armour, drop collars) would've been a quick way to come up with a new battlecruiser rather than keep an obsolete hangar queen like the Defender around. But, such a ship wouldn't be able to dogfight (in Warship terms) the way a Defender can. It would be much more conventional, like a Black Lion (II) or Tharkad.
cheers,
Gabe
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I don't mind that they kept bringing them back into service but why not make a Block II version somewhere down the line of hundreds of years of use? They did it for the Davion class Destroyer so why not this ship?
As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.
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As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.
I think what is meant by the Block II in this case is a ground up redesign using the technology as it progressed not a refit but new hulls
Now considering the FSN shipyards were pumping out Davion II, New Syrtis and Robinsons by that point maybe the admiralty didn't see the need to spend a mountain on what would effectively been a new design based around a hill that was considered to be a failure
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As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.
Curious...just how large, and how modern, a craft could the Dropshuttle bays accommodate? Were they limited to Dropshuttles in use when the Defender was first built, or could they take on Dropships built at later times? Aerodynes maybe, if not spheroids?
cheers,
Gabe
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How much do DropShuttle bays weigh? Is it the full 20 000t of the capacity or is it like 10% of the mass of the ship to be transported? Anone know?
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No clue but after imputing everything else in I had 9,038.5 tons left over for the four bays if that tells us anything?
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I think what is meant by the Block II in this case is a ground up redesign using the technology as it progressed not a refit but new hulls
Now considering the FSN shipyards were pumping out Davion II, New Syrtis and Robinsons by that point maybe the admiralty didn't see the need to spend a mountain on what would effectively been a new design based around a hill that was considered to be a failure
Or a new design at all.
Davion IIs, Congresses, Robinsons and New Syrtis. Just where is the need for a battle cruiser again?
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The Hegemony already had the Texas why the need to design and build the McKenna?
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Because the Hegemony was driven by the desire to utterly dominate everybody else when it came to WarShip actions. Why else did the Star League have a WarShip fleet 40 times the size of their next nearest competitor?
For all we know, the FedSuns was concentrating on ships up to Congress class because the Defender was outclassed so quickly, making large ships unpalatable, or maybe they were more concerned about the threat from the Draconis Combine - with their carriers and high-powered fast destroyers - than they were either the handful of heavy Capellan ships or the odds of the SLDF going to war with them.
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Curious...just how large, and how modern, a craft could the Dropshuttle bays accommodate? Were they limited to Dropshuttles in use when the Defender was first built, or could they take on Dropships built at later times? Aerodynes maybe, if not spheroids?
Rules for Drop Shuttle bays will be in Interstellar Operations.
I'm not sure we've covered DropShips trying to use a DropShuttle bay. One thing for certain is Spheroids wouldn't be able to use them. Just not the right shape or maneuverability.
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To my knowledge, no rules for DropShuttles or their bays have been published whatsoever.
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Or a new design at all.
Davion IIs, Congresses, Robinsons and New Syrtis. Just where is the need for a battle cruiser again?
Bingo, it failed once no need to waste the resources on more. Instead build designs that are useful. I'm guessing the only reason the Defenders were ever pressed back into service was because a) the FSN needed every hull and b) Admirals in the FSN had served on them and couldn't bear to see them be broken up
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Bingo, it failed once no need to waste the resources on more. Instead build designs that are useful. I'm guessing the only reason the Defenders were ever pressed back into service was because a) the FSN needed every hull and b) Admirals in the FSN had served on them and couldn't bear to see them be broken up
As a side note, alot of the older 1st generation WarShips made for the Great Houses seem to been basis for later WarShips. Making improved "Block IIs" or more importantly new designs using the 1st generation design as the basis. The Defender seems to have been on the exceptions of being not being used as template for later designs. Considering the ship is a chain saw against other ships with its speed and Naval autocannons, I'd hope they would have made least better vessel based on it.
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I'm not sure we've covered DropShips trying to use a DropShuttle bay. One thing for certain is Spheroids wouldn't be able to use them. Just not the right shape or maneuverability.
Let me be a bit more clear: there is a particular Dropship I'm thinking of, one known to be used by the AFFS in an aerospace deployment role...
cheers,
Gabe
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Let me be a bit more clear: there is a particular Dropship I'm thinking of, one known to be used by the AFFS in an aerospace deployment role...
Alright, I see need to be pretty direct here.
Is it possible, even in theory, for a Defender to accommodate a Vengeance in one of its Dropshuttle bays?
cheers,
Gabe
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To be equally direct:
We don't know, and cannot know until DropShuttle bays are published.
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Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and Avengers >:D
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Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and Avengers >:D
And if you can, then suddenly the FSN's decision to keep the Defenders around suddenly seems like the most remarkable foresight :P
cheers,
Gabe
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Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and Avengers >:D
Or it could be that each bay can only hold a single ship ever, and each of those bays can handle ships up to 20 kilotons, kinda like vehicle bays. We just don't know.
And if you can, then suddenly the FSN's decision to keep the Defenders around suddenly seems like the most remarkable foresight :P
Yeah, on top of the numerous other extremely good reasons! O0
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New quirk: Compact Dropship. ^-^
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If the DropShip is less than 5k, it should fit without problem if you go by what little we know about Dropshuttle bays.
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Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and Avengers >:D
If they can, that would be...nasty!
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Or it could be that each bay can only hold a single ship ever, and each of those bays can handle ships up to 20 kilotons, kinda like vehicle bays.
This is the more likely option
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Hmm question is what would you carry in a 20K bay if spheroid drop ships are a no go? Seems a bit excessive for a one ship bay to me.
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If a Defender's DropShuttle bay is restricted to say Aerodynes, those Aerodynes need to be under 5k limit.
You could have such designs like Gazelle for an example, Aerodyne and 2,900 tons. Comissioned in 2531, this vessel could have utilized the bay if DS Bay is restricted like that. At 4,500 tons, an Achilles Class is also a Aerodyne dropper could use a Defender's bay. Its old enough to be around as well for the ship during its long years of service, in and out of mothball yards.
Hopefully, some more primitive dropships that fit in the these 1st generation WarShip's and Primitive JumpShip bays will show up in up and coming Primitive editions of XTRO series.
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Hopefully, some more primitive dropships that fit in the these 1st generation WarShip's and Primitive JumpShip bays will show up in up and coming Primitive editions of XTRO series.
It would make a perfect place for them
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Jellico stated in his article (bold text mine):
The other big compromise is the lack of docking collars. It was the 24th Century. Who knew what would be successful? So the Defender got four huge DropShuttle Bays instead of docking collars. Given that they can swallow anything short of a Mammoth there is not much to complain about. But the four bays could have been six collars. A typically big cargo bay and 20 Small Craft bays (a Fed Suns Wing) round out the internal capacity. AA is meh with the ever popular AC5 getting a workout. Point defence is very solid, especially aft.
So this does seem to imply that these bays could conceivably handle quite large DropShips that hadn't yet been built when the Defender first slipped its moorings--including a Vengeance. >:D
cheers,
Gabe
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Uh, I don't think that Jellico's assumption there is supported in any way by the rules except in the tonnage of the bay itself. It's entirely possible that dropships are unable to use dropshuttle bays period if TBTP decide to go that direciton.
Basically don't put money down on something a fan article writer said. :P
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Uh, I don't think that Jellico's assumption there is supported in any way by the rules except in the tonnage of the bay itself. It's entirely possible that dropships are unable to use dropshuttle bays period if TBTP decide to go that direciton.
Basically don't put money down on something a fan article writer said. :P
Well, I was hoping Jellico had some advance knowledge of those rules, otherwise he wouldn't have written what he did.
In any case, even if the Defender can accommodate sizeable "modern" DropShips in its bays, there's still the question of what to do with a couple of badly obsolete WarShips that probably don't fit with the logistical base of the rest of the fleet. Yes they can be kept in mothballs indefinitely, but once they're pressed into service and actually start taking damage (assuming they make it back from an engagement), what's to be done for repair and replacement?
cheers,
Gabe
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dropshuttle bays are a bit of an issue. The two main questions are
1. can they ohld more than one ship.
2. Can they hold different types of ships.
1. I'd say yes, because if not there's not reason to make them so big given that large dropshuttles canonically didn't exist.
2. is somewhat more dicy-- Aerodyne and spheroid droppers are *quite* different in size and shape and even two aerodynes o the same tonnage can have a different exterior shape. My bet is that dropshuttle bays would likely be "type restricted". It might be permanent, or it might be something that you coudl change after a while, but in either case it would be far more inconvenient than using a collar, where there is no problem swapping a 2500 dropper for a 100k dropper.
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Basically don't put money down on something a fan article writer said. :P
Yep. Writer of fan articles. That's me O:-)
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Uh, I don't think that Jellico's assumption there is supported in any way by the rules except in the tonnage of the bay itself. It's entirely possible that dropships are unable to use dropshuttle bays period if TBTP decide to go that direciton.
Given the complete absence of rules, nothing at all is supported by them.
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To be honest I'm half expecting a generic 'DropShuttle' that all the states inherited from the Hegemony and didn't bother to replace with their own because of the advent of DropShips and Collars makes a lot more sense to me
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Basically don't put money down on something a fan article writer said. :P
Yes, even when they are CGL writers, because...
Well, I was hoping Jellico had some advance knowledge of those rules, otherwise he wouldn't have written what he did.
Even if we do know, we also know to be very careful when writing anything in public. When Jellico writes Fan Articles, he puts his CGL knowledge in a box beyond that as the unit designer talking about his design process (If you hadn't guessed, he designed the Defender not just wrote the article).
dropshuttle bays are a bit of an issue. The two main questions are
And you'll have to wait for them to be published. We haven't published them yet.
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And you'll have to wait for them to be published. We haven't published them yet.
And now that they have... how in the world does the Defender's work when the ones we have have a max capacity of 10,000 tons? [This is also relevant for the League-class]
This has been bugging me.
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And now that they have... how in the world does the Defender's work when the ones we have have a max capacity of 10,000 tons? [This is also relevant for the League-class]
This has been bugging me.
The final rules for DropShuttle Bays were laid down after the Defender was published. So errata may have to occur.
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Most straightforward would be to put in eight standard Dropshuttle bays, which would be comparable to what was originally published in terms of capacity, or to put in four properly-sized bays and increase cargo.
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So could a modern ship combine collars and bays?
I reckon the bay is quite a bit safer if you want to really safeguard something.
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As evidenced by the League-class, yes. :)
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There isn't much reason to do so in the 31st/32nd century, though, given how long it takes to unload or load Dropshuttle bays.
Wait. Dropshuttle bays don't count against docking collar limits, do they? Each have their own limits.
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There isn't much reason to do so in the 31st/32nd century, though, given how long it takes to unload or load Dropshuttle bays.
Yes, no. Normally, your WarShip would have plenty of time to launch. Having to take a couple of hours to launch a pair of 5kt ships from a dropshuttle bay isn't much compared to the days it takes to fly between the jump points and planets and, even without a NCSS, sensor ranges are such that you'd have plenty of time to launch before an attacker could get in range. The danger is if the attacker starts closer than the detection limit - such as after a Crazy Jane - or if they coast in rather than using thrust, thus denying you the use of your longest ranged sensor, the driver plume detector.
For a WarShip invading a system, the coasting threat almost certainly isn't a realistic one, because you'd have to be sitting at the jump point for a long time for the enemy to be able to coast into range, given that they won't be able to start until you arrive and are detected. A coasting attacker has to build up speed while thrusting outside of your drive plume detection range, then there's the coasting time itself, all of which is going to take way more than a few hours, most likely multiple days.
Although they comes with limits and problems, dropshuttle bays are still a viable way to "cheat" the C-Bill cost of carrying DropShips.
Wait. Dropshuttle bays don't count against docking collar limits, do they? Each have their own limits.
Each dropshuttle bay reduces counts as 2 collars for the purposes of the maximum number of collars.
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Hope we do get couple of primitive dropships for the Defender could pop out of. It's crazy how the only known early dropship, the Drosts were 5k2 ish range. We only have one Primitive Book left, usually it's one dropship per book if any.
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Each dropshuttle bay reduces counts as 2 collars for the purposes of the maximum number of collars.
To be fair, I think few vessels actually approach their limit of possible docking hardpoints.
It'd really be variety for varieties sake.
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Hope we do get couple of primitive dropships for the Defender could pop out of. It's crazy how the only known early dropship, the Drosts were 5k2 ish range. We only have one Primitive Book left, usually it's one dropship per book if any.
The mass of the DroSTs may yet be errataed, but we also have the Vulture and the Manatee.
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The mass of the DroSTs may yet be errataed, but we also have the Vulture and the Manatee.
Black Eagle is also 4.5kt.
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assuming the eratta goes the obvious route of just doubling the number of bays to keep the tonnage intact, the Defender's airwing gets kinda nasty.. that is up to Sixteen 5K tonnage dropshuttles it can deploy, fairly rapidly, plus the 20 small craft.
to be honest, while i highly doubt that this was an influence, the end result reminds me a bit of the UNSC infinity from Halo4. massive, lots of firepower (forward canted even), and Carrying smaller warships along for the ride (https://youtu.be/_pPrdEDnl-c?t=279). too bad it wasn't nearly as indestructible as the Infinty
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Black Eagle is also 4.5kt.
She little new for early ships and has one problem. She spheriod. DropShuttle only take Aerodynes last time i checked.
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She little new for early ships and has one problem. She spheriod. DropShuttle only take Aerodynes last time i checked.
Tell that to the Vulture and Manatee.
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She little new for early ships and has one problem. She spheriod. DropShuttle only take Aerodynes last time i checked.
Just checked Interstellar Operations, and can find no such limitation on DropShuttle bays in the final version.
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I certainly think aesthetically aerodynes look better... but there seems to be no rules limitation of such.
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Just checked Interstellar Operations, and can find no such limitation on DropShuttle bays in the final version.
I'm glad, i could sworn one earlier info had said it was things about had to be aerodyne.
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Welshman. He commented in this thread that he figured that spheroids would be just too darn bulky. He's probably right, but it doesn't appear to have made its way into the rules.
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Welshman. He commented in this thread that he figured that spheroids would be just too darn bulky. He's probably right, but it doesn't appear to have made its way into the rules.
Can't even imagine what I was thinking at the time. :)
Spheroids are cool
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They are. They're also bulky. Of course, so are aerodyne wings.
Makes me wonder if the early dropshuttles were more compact/dense than later KF-boom-equipped DropShips, since outer volume was a bigger constraint.
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Great write up.
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They are. They're also bulky. Of course, so are aerodyne wings.
Makes me wonder if the early dropshuttles were more compact/dense than later KF-boom-equipped DropShips, since outer volume was a bigger constraint.
Maybe flying boxes? They could be classed as spheroids I guess if you had early craft all the same size/dimensions it would make arranging them inside easier
The biggest restriction might not be tonnage but instead floor space
Collars have no such trouble because there's no bay to fit inside
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I was looking at the XTRO: Primitives IV where the DroST IIs (vehicle/infantry carriers & Fighter carriers) early versions have record sheets for 2445 and 2470. The tonnages remains same at 5,300 for all of them. Making it impossible under current rules with interstellar Operations for them to be transported by DropShuttle. Page 121 of the IO states only DropShips can be up to 5,000 each, a bay with a 10k capacity can only fit two DropShuttles aka primitive DropShips.
Until the advent of the KF Boom and the corresponding “postboom” collars, DropShips weighing more than 5,000 tons could not be transported through hyperspace by any means other than as dismantled cargo. Even if the vessel possesses a naval repair facility of sufficient capacity, vessels carried within would still require a KF boom to enable transition through hyperspace. Efforts to jump while docked with a vessel that lacks a KF boom will automatically abort the procedure.
Defender or other ships of it's kind with unnamed DropShuttles Class of Primitive shuttles to handle duties of being transported. Or having to reassemble dropshuttles too big for normal transport. Which would be a major pain I can believe. Maybe the last Primitives V will have DroST I-Class ships that haven't been specified how big they were tonnage wie. Its really too bad. I really like DroST IIs.
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IIRC, isn't the Drost IIa from after the jump-booms were in use? the design may have gained a few hundred tons in the process of being updated to use the new system.
a Drost I, or a Drost II ("no bloody a, b, c, or d" ;) ) might have been designed under 5K mass without sacrificing much, in order to allow it's use in dropshuttle bays.
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No. We have specific IIa and IIb variants that specifically don't have a KF Boom. (IIa being troop transport and IIb escort assault dropship, same basic frame)
A and B seem to be subtypes of the same frame. In the same manner as LAVs often do today. There is no DroST II, except as talking about the series of DropShips of which the IIa and IIb are the two known subtypes.
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As mentioned before, much of the Primitives series was written before we finalized the rules in IO. So some things will require errata.
When you build a game system back to front, sometime you break a few eggs. When you have a game system that is 30 years old and only on it's 3rd substantial edition of rules (not counting RPG), then you have to deal with some continuity issues.
Thanks for catching this, please report it in errata and continue to enjoy the ride that is BattleTech.
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a warship with a ram prow and all its useful mass invested in SI and armor?
now you're just being MEAN. Just because ramming was the go-to "Tactic" from the first warship conflicts of the FedCom civil war through the entire run of the Jihad...
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IIRC, isn't the Drost IIa from after the jump-booms were in use? the design may have gained a few hundred tons in the process of being updated to use the new system.
a Drost I, or a Drost II ("no bloody a, b, c, or d" ;) ) might have been designed under 5K mass without sacrificing much, in order to allow it's use in dropshuttle bays.
Mr Scott I salute you [notworthy]
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So, just hypothetically, and really stretching what this thread is meant to be about, could you build a dropship with KF boom and a shuttle bay? I doubt the rules allow it, but "tack-on shuttle bays sounds like a market niche to me, around that time. ;)
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They don't. DropShuttle bays are JumpShip and WarShip only.
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Speaking of rules allowing it. I don't think that double up on Shuttle bay fix for the Defender will work. Isn't there a limit on number of Bays based on armor facings?
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I was looking at the XTRO: Primitives IV where the DroST IIs (vehicle/infantry carriers & Fighter carriers) early versions have record sheets for 2445 and 2470. The tonnages remains same at 5,300 for all of them. Making it impossible under current rules with interstellar Operations for them to be transported by DropShuttle. Page 121 of the IO states only DropShips can be up to 5,000 each, a bay with a 10k capacity can only fit two DropShuttles aka primitive DropShips.
Defender or other ships of it's kind with unnamed DropShuttles Class of Primitive shuttles to handle duties of being transported. Or having to reassemble dropshuttles too big for normal transport. Which would be a major pain I can believe. Maybe the last Primitives V will have DroST I-Class ships that haven't been specified how big they were tonnage wie. Its really too bad. I really like DroST IIs.
I don't understand this ruling. If a jump-capable ship is carrying 10,000 tons of cargo in containers, those containers don't need a KF boom, but a 5300 ton Dropship either needs a KF boom, even if it can be completely contained in the cargo bay, or has to be disassembled?
Something just doesn't seem consistent about that. What is there about an intact 5300 ton Dropship that would prevent the KF field from containing it, the way that it can contain any other object--living or not--inside the jumping ship?
cheers,
Gabe
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Two simple words...
Game Balance
We can and have come up with plenty of in universe rules to explain it, most I don't recall right now.
However, at the end of the day it's all about balance. After we designed the Newgrange an internal guy said, "I wonder how many ASF you could fit into that bay?" That was a sobering thought and we moved to put in rules to keep from breaking the universe.
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I don't understand this ruling. If a jump-capable ship is carrying 10,000 tons of cargo in containers, those containers don't need a KF boom, but a 5300 ton Dropship either needs a KF boom, even if it can be completely contained in the cargo bay, or has to be disassembled?
Something just doesn't seem consistent about that. What is there about an intact 5300 ton Dropship that would prevent the KF field from containing it, the way that it can contain any other object--living or not--inside the jumping ship?
cheers,
Gabe
There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.
As for dropshuttle bays, in universe I would suspect it would be a question of simply not mastering the engineering of building a launch bay large enough to accommodate anything larger. KF booms don't even come into it.
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There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.
There are rules limiting DropShips, Fighters and Small Craft in Bays. I think what you are talking about is putting a DropShip into the cargo bay of a WarShip. We'd need to make a rules ruling on that, it's possible the way we wrote the limitations on stuff in Bays may also carry over here.
From a very practical fluff reason though, it's not tenable, as other than Bay doors, cargo doors on WarShips are not made to fit a DropShip of any decent size.
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There's actually no rules against carrying a dropship internally as cargo (assuming you have the spare mass). Unloading it is an agonizingly slow process however (just like it would be for an internally carried ten thousand ton container). Any restrictions are purely fluffy.
As for dropshuttle bays, in universe I would suspect it would be a question of simply not mastering the engineering of building a launch bay large enough to accommodate anything larger. KF booms don't even come into it.
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo. "Nope, totally not a DropShip. Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip! It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows! Yeah. For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo. "Nope, totally not a DropShip. Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip! It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows! Yeah. For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
Can I sig that?
Why stop at Overlords? I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.
cheers,
Gabe
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Can I sig that?
Why stop at Overlords? I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.
cheers,
Gabe
Even if it could carry one... it would take an hour and twenty minutes to unload from a DropShuttle Bay.
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There are rules limiting DropShips, Fighters and Small Craft in Bays. I think what you are talking about is putting a DropShip into the cargo bay of a WarShip. We'd need to make a rules ruling on that, it's possible the way we wrote the limitations on stuff in Bays may also carry over here.
Or primitive Jumpships. But I believe there was a ruling made at one point specifically allowing it. Though I don't recall the details.
From a very practical fluff reason though, it's not tenable, as other than Bay doors, cargo doors on WarShips are not made to fit a DropShip of any decent size.
Certainly. And even if they were, it would be painfully impractical to unload one. I'm pretty sure we'd be talking days to ease one out of the cargo bay (heck, maybe some of that time is widening the bay door and patching it up after you're done. :) )
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Wouldn't huge cargo bay doors on the side or bottom of a ship destroy the structural integrity
Plus it's a massive open space designed to be vented to space it would be a nightmare to work around on any ship
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There's a lot of reasons why it's a bad idea. And really, by the time you've solved them, you've basically just created docking collars.
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Wouldn't huge cargo bay doors on the side or bottom of a ship destroy the structural integrity
Plus it's a massive open space designed to be vented to space it would be a nightmare to work around on any ship
There is some leeway, but I think that 5000 tons is a good limit for that.
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There's a lot of reasons why it's a bad idea. And really, by the time you've solved them, you've basically just created docking collars.
Armored Docking collars, though.
In case that drop ship is really precious.
Then again, I see no problem with designing the warship with 2 bays per facing, then spending the remaining capacity on collars.
As to get back to the defender, is it really all about placement regarding looks?
Just cram them in somewhere.
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Can I sig that?
Why stop at Overlords? I was kind of hoping there would be some way of having a Defender most unexpectedly disgorge a fully-loaded Vengeance during an engagement...but the recent discussion points to that not even being a possibility.
cheers,
Gabe
Sure!