BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: jymset on 12 July 2015, 15:57:43

Title: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: jymset on 12 July 2015, 15:57:43
(http://img.masterunitlist.info/BattleMechs/KingFisher.jpg)
KINGFISHER 90-TON OMNIMECH
Technical Readout: 3058 Upgrade, pp. 188-189

Welcome to my first MotW in years! Disclaimer: this has turned out way longer than I had intended. I ramble on a lot, yet rambling may be the most engaging thing I can offer? I cannot hope to match the entertainment levels of the many rather excellent current MotW writers, so proceed at your own risk. Or scroll down to the bottom of the wall of text, where I've summarized it all for you in a few sentences! At any rate, individual configurations will be marked clearly.

Anyways! Take a walk down memory lane with me. No, not to 3025, not that far. Even us Clanners get to be grognards these days, so remember the glory days of the early post-invasion years. When Black Hawks ate BattleMasters and Mad Cats were the hot shit. 3055 had just arrived and its most impressive Clan units were the IIC versions of Warhammer and Marauder, both PPC-wielding, pulse-laser spewing monstrosities that would not die. Take a Mad Cat, trade some speed for even more longevity. Those things could lose both arms and side torsos and still charge at their enemy in a blaze of glory with some guns to spare.

Then the Refusal War happened, Clanners started using contractions, and 3058 came out. In relation of what was there before, it was arguably the most powerful line-up ever inflicted upon. Let us… oh, sod it, let’s remain focused on the Clan line-up: you had the Falcons spamming very powerful OmniMechs and most other Clans deploying 2nd liners focused on overkill with extreme prejudice. And somewhere in the middle was the humble Kingfisher. You know, the 90-ton OmniMech with 24 tons of pod space. At first glance, often overlooked.

Not so much when understood in its true role as an upsized Omni-Warhammer IIC.

But the Kingfisher wouldn’t be a 3058 ’Mech if its stats (or, in the case of the JF Omnis, at least their names) hadn’t been previously published somewhere else. Cause, you know, every last Clan ’Mech was. I’ll refrain from any commentary about the sometimes rather unpleasant public discontent when CGL did the same in more recent times. The Kingfisher, for one, had been previously published in The Black Thorns (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Black_Thorns), which started with a Tukayyid scenario. This is important, because via that connection, the Kingfisher (along with Grendel and Shadow Cat) is a rare beast in having first seen the light of day in MechForce MECH Special Issue (I have 1992's "Retrofit" on hand). You know, the special edition of the very magazine published by the author of The Black Thorns. —Incidentally, there were also a handful of rather cool and fluffy ComStar BattleMechs which didn’t see the light of day.— So much for the trivia. Is it useful? Not sure, but to me, this sort of gaming history is the most interesting thing about our shared hobby, after BT construction, of course. And at any rate, it shows that the Kingfisher’s introduction happened before that of most of its 3058 contemporaries, both in-universe and real life.

Of course, nobody can really tell who is/was building the Kingfisher. It is one of those strange things being built on the Clan Homeworld, Strana Mechty. While production there has mainly been associated with Clans Wolf and Ghost Bear—the latter also being one of the two Clans fielding it on Tukayyid (alongside the Jaguars)—the “Strana Mechty ’Mech Production Facility” output has always been the generic units used by all Clans; meaning the Clan originals of the Wolf Dragoon BattleMechs. The “Beta” facility is/was there for the Kingfisher alone. So the Kingfisher is traditionally associated with the Bears, but is also relatively common among the homeworld Clans.

But back to the 3050s, where the Clan homeworlds were nowhere in sight. The Kingfisher arrived as a Bear/Jaguar-ish OmniMech at a mighty 90 tons and a pathetic 24 tons of pod space as the bottom line. Why? Because at 90 tons it greedily both wanted to move 4/6 and use a standard engine while doing so. Ask the Cyclops how well that worked out for its role as an “assault ’Mech”. It is Jade Hellbringer who so rightly points out “speed, armor, guns, pick two” and we know the Kingfisher certainly didn’t choose guns to achieve the above-average speed. Thankfully, it goes to town in the armour department by using the near-maximum amount of ferro-fibrous compound. No smart armor (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/a-little-spiel-on-armour/) debate here, then. (While I’m not impressed by the threshold-less 13 armour on the CT rear, I do appreciate that it doesn’t overdo armouring there, like some other zombies; Awesome and Imp, I’m looking at you. But with the front coming up short at 44 points, I must point out that the unit is technically 1 point short both of maximum and yet another threshold.)

So yeah, the Kingfisher chooses armour and speed and the standard engine's added resilience on top of former feature exacerbates the negative, mass-devouring effects of the latter: as such, the standard engine very much defines the Kingfisher. At 24 tons of pod space, the OmniMech carries even less guns than the Gladiator, which surely must’ve been thrilling to Ghost Bear players. But the net result was the mother of all zombies in the Clan OmniMech lineup; back in the 1990s/3050s and really up until now, the Kingfisher was the only Omni tougher than a Daishi.

Of course, as I’ve continually stated in any past OmniMech MotW, configurations can make or break a canon OmniMech. Some mediocre chasses have been elevated to greatness by their configurations (point in case: Man O’ War (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/repost-mech-of-the-week-redux-gargoyle-man-o'-war-(9122008)-by-jymset/)) and others have been held back by lackluster configurations (Fire Falcon). Now while I certainly don’t think that the Kingfisher is a poor chassis, it better show off a wide span of good choices to make it interesting. Of note is that it actually comes with 17 fixed double heat sinks, three more than supported by the engine. The logical reaction to this—3 wasted tons on something that desperately needs more than 24 tons of weapons—would be of the kneejerk kind. But at such a low pod space, all of the Kingfisher’s configurations will extensively lean on energy weaponry with its good damage-to-weight ratio but high heat penalty. So these fixed heat sinks should merely be seen as the intrinsic pointer to a solution for getting the best out of the Kingfisher.
Spoilers: no, there aren’t any stupidly inefficient gauss boat configurations.

Spoilers, continued: most of the configurations are actually true gold, turning the Kingfisher into a winner.

So a quick recap before we delve in:
The latter is a given and its only importance is in its restriction of internal space. The Kingfisher puts a DHS each in the leg, never a bad thing, and one in the LT. The FF/ES combo is completely tucked away in the head and the side torsos—thanks to the lack of engine therein, you still have 4 slots in the right and 5 slots in the left for secondary systems, but the OmniMech will always deploy its big guns in the arms. As they are completely empty beyond their actuators, the Kingfisher has an astounding flexibility to carry even the most crit-inefficient equipment. And remember what I said about the Warhammer IIC? One of the extra nice features of the Kingfisher is that its 2 center torso slots are free for pod equipment. Apart from the B configuration, all Kingfishers carry respectable weaponry in there, ranging from dual ER medium lasers to a bloody ER PPC on the A and the X! So you know that this thing will come after you relentlessly until you put it down the hard way.

Kingfisher Prime (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1786/kingfisher-prime): 2 large pulse lasers, 2 medium pulse lasers, ER small laser, LRM 10 (12), Streak SRM 6 (15). The Prime is a generalist through and through and essentially serves as a template for the OmniMech in general. It sets a standard by going with light energy and missile weaponry while remaining heat-efficient: it can pull off a running alpha strike, discounting the pop gun and the Streak launcher, which, if it hits, is always worth the additional heat. The Prime lacks a singular knock-out punch, but features enhanced accuracy on most weapons. And its damage output quickly adds up at medium ranges.
It isn't the most impressive assault ’Mech in the traditional sense, but it is a great generalist. Its guns suit the chassis' intrinsic features (it's one of the LPL that sits in the CT) and it is well-equipped to face a wide variety of foes. If I wasn't sure what my enemy was taking, it's the Prime I'd take more often than not.
The defensive attributes outweighing the offensive here, it should be the anvil of your force. Wade into the thick of things, use it as a very overt distraction, let it take the hits that some of your other units that may have more guns but will have less resilience don't have to.

Kingfisher A (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1779/kingfisher-a): LB-X AC/10 (20), ER PPC, medium pulse laser, ER medium laser, ER small laser, SRM 6 (15). Ah yeah. I got nothing. I'm sorry, this is one of maybe two configurations I really don't like and I've never used it (well, maybe once?) in all my years of BT. The LB-X/PPC combo is a truly great one...on a mobile ’Mech. Thor, Nobori-nin, heck even Hercules. They use the combo to have a single impressive punch, and a shotgun to follow up on it. With it, they can bully most equally mobile units just fine. But on this? It just feels so anemic and inefficient on this assault. And I'm really not impressed with the hodge podge of back up weapons, either. The Prime was versatile, this just feels messy. Sure, as mentioned in the chassis summary above, it is one of the two “undying ER PPC” configurations, but that's definitely not enough of a saving grace here.
Please, if any inclined reader would help me out finding a role for this one? But please, a better one than “hunting vehicles”—that'd just be undignified.

Kingfisher B (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1780/kingfisher-b): Ultra AC/20 (10), AMS (24), ER large laser, 4 ER medium lasers, ER small laser. The B configuration screams second line ’Mech in all the right ways. With that huge ultra AC and a very efficient damage/weight ratio back up of medium lasers, it evokes the do-or-die attitude of the second-liners that were featured in the same TRO. For its ability to churn out almost 70 damage at short-medium ranges relatively reliably—still on 24 tons of pod space  [legal]—this was the Kingfisher I first fielded time and again when I became acquainted with the ’Mech.
As I matured as a player, its shortcomings became painfully apparent: it lacks range and, in direct contradiction to what is the Kingfisher's greatest strength—mission endurance—it lacks the combat endurance to back it up. That Ultra AC gobbles up half of the Omni's pod space. Without ammunition. And it has enough ammo for five rounds of full fire. (It is my humble opinion that unlike other Ultras, the 20-class really isn't about choice. It's a shock and awe weapon and to get any worthwhile use out of it, when you line up a shot it should always be good enough to go full bore.)
After those five turns, you're really reduced to light ’Mech weaponry. And the fact that it's the only configuration that lacks weapons in the CT, instead having the AMS there totally reinforces that “oh, you might be going home... but you long stopped being useful” character that the B is often reduced to.
And yes, that range, or lack thereof. The B is actually a bracket firer. Except that its long range bracket is all of one solitary ER LL. 4/6 is definitely not quick enough to rely on a singular ER LL to reach beyond range 15 (or vice versa, a single ER LL is not enough long range firepower for such a large and relatively slow ’Mech)! Then again, who am I kidding? The Kodiak seems to do just fine...
Nonetheless, the B is a valid entry that I still appreciate. If your opponent knows you are going to bring a Kingfisher to the table, he knows it might be a B. And for those glorious five turns, it will bring a world of pain to absolutely anything that tries to face it.

Kingfisher C (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1781/kingfisher-c): 2 ER PPC, 4 ER medium lasers, 8 DHS. Obviously, it was this monster that I referenced when I referred to the Kingfisher as an Omni-Warhammer IIC. Dual peepers of the scary Clan variations? Check. Bevy of medium lasers? Check.
Now, the Kingfisher is 10 tons heavier than the Warhammer IIC. And it uses ER instead of pulse lasers, and even has one less. And no token SRMs. But this is where the C's other feature kicks in: It is the only configuration (barring its misguided clone, the H) to mount additional DHS. Despite having extremely high-intensity heat generating weapons, it is a true alpha striker, needing to take into account only movement heat. In its C incarnation, the Kingfisher will spew out 58 damage nigh-on every turn, 30 of which will hit you at long, all of which will hit you at medium ranges. And the peepers may just take off your head while at it.
Between the C's zombie-like resilience—the side torsos are reasonably crit-packed with DHS and the ’Mech obviously lacks any ammo—and the high rate of fire that has the Warhammer IIC beat, this is the go-to configuration against enemy BattleMechs.
So clearly, this configuration is where the money's at. Alas, it's also where the BV's at. Even under BV1, it was the most expensive of the lot, which only increases to an impressive 2,644 under BV2.
That said, which other, more recent BattleMech does this gem remind you of? Right. The Hellstar. The Kingfisher obviously has half the PPCs, but replaces the missing ones with a brace of ER ML each. So the net damage is very similar, at the expense of range and head-capping capability. You lose roughly a ton of armor, but you gain a standard engine. Obviously, the Hellstar is the more overtly scary package, but the Kingfisher C costs 440 points less, almost 15%. Unlike most other configurations, may no longer be a budget assault, but I feel it is well worth the investment.

Kingfisher D (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1782/kingfisher-d): Ultra AC/10 (20), 3 ER large lasers. When I was young and dumb, there was one reason and one reason only to take the Kingfisher D: BV. BV1, to be precise, because at 1,966, it had that magical “1” at the beginning, definitely making it not only equal, but tangibly cheaper than a lot of the heavies at the Clans' disposal.
I never bought into the positive judgment that very many of my peers bestowed on it: relatively concentrated damage and huge range. To me, it ran too hot, wasn't flexible enough, and... right next to it in the same TRO, I had another ’Mech with equal mass and exactly double the ER LL! If I wanted inefficient long range laser spam, the Supernova would always be my go-to unit.
But now that BV2 pushes it up to 2,364—beyond the A's 2,261 and into the vicinity of the great Prime—the above arguments really need to stick to make the D worthwhile.
I still don't think it's the chassis' best use. But the whole long range argument starts making sense a bit more if one is stuck with the Kingfisher in the long run and explicitly wants something that works at range. No other config does this job as well. But you tell me. It's the one configuration where I have the sinking feeling that my own intuition goes against the general common sense. I genuinely think it's better than the A (what, BV itself isn't broken on the Kingfisher? :D), but I'd still love for you to tellme how good it really is.

Kingfisher E (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1783/kingfisher-e): Large pulse laser, 4 medium pulse lasers, ATM 12 (15). The E configuration is one of the second generation Kingfishers, along with the H. It really shows what you can do when matching the advanced missiles to the strengths of a given chassis.
This Kingfisher starts out strong—it copies the best thing about the Prime: pulse lasers. Lots of them. With one large and four mediums, it lacks range, but gains respectable damage output at great accuracy.
Then the configuration is topped off with the largest ATM launcher and enough ammo to flexibly field it. With the missiles, this thing joins the B's average 68 damage at close ranges. Its heat balances out exactly, so unlike with the earlier model, there's no need to bracket here. The ATM launcher has more flexibility and both greater range and endurance. Its major drawback compared to the B's boomstick is obviously the lack of concentrated punch. Once the configurations are out of ammo, they both have four medium and one large laser, but the E has pulse models. And its main ammunition weapon will last three times longer in the first place, meaning it won't run into the mission-vs-combat endurance issues that the B has.
Alas, with its short range, the E almost exacerbates the issues the B and H may have in lacking long-range weaponry, and the ER ATM ammo, though nice to have, isn't enough to make up for it. Simply having such a nice lineup of pulsers does make it an easy ride to master, and it needs to be a bully. This is great for catching fast, light units trying to zip past your battle line and misjudging their range. It's great for beating up anything that's too slow to get away.
And boy, is it good at it, but ultimately it lacks the versatility of the Prime. If you know what you're facing and you know how you'll put the E to use, I contend it may be the best configuration of the lot. If you're unsure of either of that, always take the Prime instead.

Kingfisher F (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1784/kingfisher-f): HAG 30 (12), ER large laser, 3 ER medium lasers, ECM. This is the first out of the current Record Sheets' new configurations that bring the Kingfisher into the Jihad and beyond. Now, obviously the Kingfisher isn't currently being produced by any Council-of-Six Clans, but at least in the starting years of the Jihad, those factions still had access to some Home Worlds goodies. Beyond that, the Kingfishers in Ghost Bear/Rasalhague Dominion stockpiles have to labor on until they drop.
So, remembering that TRO 3050U's Gladiator entry, set in 3070, states that HAG weapons “have become so popular among younger warriors that the Ghost Bears are scrambling to negotiate for more HAGs from Diamond Shark merchants to meet demand”, I tasked Jellico with devising an appropriate configuration for the Kingfisher. I didn't believe he could do it, having fallen short of something satisfactory myself.
I must have been overthinking things.
The Kingfisher F is picture book simplicity. It all comes back to the fact that vanilla ER lasers are among the most efficient weapons one could choose. And the chassis already has the heat sinks for it. Though there is a reminiscence of the B configuration, the differences are obvious. This loadout lacks a single solid punch. But while it also plays best in the medium range bracket, the F has no problems with engaging at long to very long ranges if need be. 12 shots for the HAG are obviously best used frugally, but the option is always there to go for that range 24 shot.
Now, I've mentioned BV before. What undoubtedly is a drawback of the Kingfisher F is the HAG's extremely high intrinsic BV—IMO too high. At 2,568, is it easy to justify taking the F into a BV-balanced game? When the Prime is 2,401 and even the sublime E is 2,443? Alas, I'm not at all sure the answer to that is “yes”...

Kingfisher H (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1785/kingfisher-h): 2 heavy large lasers, 4 ER medium lasers, targeting computer, 9 DHS. Posting this article gives me the luxury of openly spouting my opinions. Well, I really, really don't like this configuration. As mentioned above, this one precedes the F and X, coming along with all the 2nd wave Hs and all “E”/ATM configurations in.
Here's a super short summary of my opinion of H configurations foolishly mimicking established ones (instead of going their own, original route): Look, in some rare occasions, dropping ER LL for HLL kinda, sorta works. The Thor H works because the Thor D already had a targeting computer and some tertiary stuff that could be dropped for more heat sinks. And the Thor lacked a brawler configuration up until then, anyways. The Ryoken H otoh, doesn't work, because its base, the Prime, lacked either attributes. And then going on to replace ER PPCs with HLL? Goodness. Well, it actually sorta works for the Puma, but only because dual ER PPCs completely overburdened its chassis. The Kingfisher...
Nonono. You're spending most of the mass savings vs the C configuration mounting the targeting computer that you need to make up for the shocking accuracy issues of the HLL. Despite an additional DHS compared to its parent design, heat management that is so vital (see above) is now shot. And with its primary and secondary weaponry sharing exactly the same range, bracketing doesn't work intuitively. You really shouldn't have to bracket. Again, see above!
It's a piss poor alternative to the C and its BV at 2,525 adds insult to injury. When you're only playing the mid ranges already, and that's what you want, take the B, warts and all, at 2,472.
And in ways of postscript: we've covered the good (= nothing), the bad (= everything), so here's the ugly: thanks to the large crit size of the lasers and the limited space of the torsos, the left arm medium laser had to be moved into the left torso. That's...just...no! #P

Kingfisher X (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1787/kingfisher-x): ER PPC, 2 ER medium pulse lasers, 3 improved heavy medium lasers, LRM 15/Artemis V (16), targeting computer, ECM. And this is what happens when you let Jellico loose to do what he really wants to do. The Ghost Bear doing his Ghost Bear thing! The good man didn't really comment on this devilish concoction beyond pointing out that every single weapon on the ’Mech has at least a -1 bonus to hit. Nice touches are grouping the iHML LA and, as previously pointed out, putting the ER PPC into the CT. There are varied bracketing options here, catering nicely to all ranges, and the pure amount of damage the X can do is intimidating. Like the F, the X carries an ECM, to really put the pain to the Wobblies' networks. This would have been an ultimate monster to face in the Jihad.
It is the only advanced/experimental configuration, and it's the most expensive of the lot. Use it if you are allowed to, can afford it and if you like the Ghost Bear style! Fun trivia: which 3145 NTNU Omni do you think is this guy's spiritual sibling?

This marks the end of my rambling review! If you just scrolled past the wall of text to get to the bottom line, here it is:

All that remains is your input below, and for Scotty to post his corresponding ASMotW tomorrow. Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kojak on 12 July 2015, 18:18:32
A great review of probably one of my all-time Top Ten favorite 'Mechs. I've been getting a lot of use out of the X since its debut, I can't speak highly enough of it. The fact that it has that ER PPC in the CT, able to spew hot particle death at your opponents until they finally dedicate the firepower to pound the 'Fisher to scrap, really can't be understated in its usefulness. I've seen so many games turn on redirecting just enough of an opponent's firepower onto the "wrong" target, and the X excels in this regard.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Decoy on 12 July 2015, 18:25:14
I don't use the Kingfisher much...but I do remember one battle in the FGC where I was dragooned into playing a Jaguar raider. I selected a fairly typical Jaguarish star and the Ghost Bear Khan at the time dropped three elite Kingfishers on me. While all three Kingfishers were eventually destroyed, the survivor of the Battle star I used was a one armed Nova that probably would've collapsed if Megamek could simulate a stiff breeze.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: sillybrit on 12 July 2015, 19:12:00
Way back I used to prefer SFE designs, due to losing what seemed like way too many XLFE Mechs due to side torso destruction. Lightweight designs that relied on speed to avoid being hit in the first place were something of an exception, but overall XLFEs made me uncomfortable, even when the Clans arrived with their more survivable version. That all made the Kingfisher a very interesting Omni for me when I first saw it in the Black Thorns scenario book. It was 5t overweight for my preferences, but at least had the good grace to invest in near maximum armor. For me it wasn't an assault, it was a slighty inefficient SFE heavy, with the Clan technology more than making up for being a little overweight when compared to 3025 heavies and assaults.

That's how I saw the Kingfisher, so that's why the A made sense to me. For me it was a generalist heavy - able to headcap, hole punch, crit seek at long range, etc all by itself - that I would use to anchor a line or support more specialist designs. Later rules changes added Inferno capability and flak vs ASFs (originally flak was only against VTOLs and AirMechs), while making them weaker vs PBIs (assuming I didn't use Infernos on them), but I still liked it as a generalist.

The Prime and C were also good, especially the energy boat C in campaigns or when I was transporting Elementals... which was a lot of the time! The latter was almost my only incentive to field the D, as it could still shoot two of the ERLLs and the UAC while carrying battle armor, and thus allowed me avoiding fielding just Cs with my Elementals. Overall though the UAC frustrated me and I would have much preferred a LBX for the cluster option. Maybe I just have bad luck with UACs jamming, but I've never really liked them. Sans Elementals, for me the UAC10 was just a replacement for an ERLL in the turns when I wanted to cool down or when I desperately needed the extra firepower. The B was somewhat different for me, as even in single-shot mode a 20-point hit is still a 20-point hit, and most opponents feared the possibility of a double-tap, so on the right map a Kingfisher B occasionally snuck its way into my lineup.

I don't really have the experience with E and upwards, although given my druthers I wouldn't touch the H with a bargepole. I view HLs less favorably than UACs, especially on a platform that's not got the mobility to be a reliable backstabber.


Sweet write-up.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 12 July 2015, 19:34:57
One wonders if the Kingfisher was deliberately made less "Offensive" to contrast many of the other clan machines, IC time and all that.
Still, if it works, it works.
Neat article, I, for one, have no qualms about reading some rambling, or I'd just skim over sarna instead of reading articles in the first place.
Anecdotes, tactical advice, backgroundinfo, that's what I'm here for after all.
It's impressive some configurations coax some impressive firepower out of the existing shell.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 July 2015, 20:19:12
Kingfisher is a fun design to spring on someone . . . we need a supercharger config!

The Prime is what you put that MechWarrior fresh from the sibko who does not quite have the skills of his starmates in.  More accurate to offset his lesser skills.

The A?  Wish it was a ERLL rather than a ERPPC since I think the laser is a superior weapon.  I think the fault here lies in having two critseeker weapons, that SRM would better serve as a 3rd ton of LBX and maybe more mixed lasers.  It is also the anvil for a star that is 5/8 speed against someone you do not plan to follow dueling rules against.  Let everyone else go fast, using ErPPC, ErLL and UAC/10 to punch holes in other peoples' armor, the Kingfisher A will come behind to sweep the cripples aside.

The B is when as a Clanner you have to fight the IS players on a postage stamp (aka 2x2 maps) for that wonderful bubble of doom on a SFE monster.  While it may not always work, it pitches the fight into something more closely run.

A D is still very solid against Inner Sphere assault which will not be able to match the range and for most can barely grind forward faster than you can fall back.  Keep walking into my ERLLs while you struggle to get LRMs, GRs and ERPPCs.  Then you can also exploit the better range brackets of those ERLL and when its closer quarters you can trade off to the AC.

The problem I have with the E is that it is like the supposed Night Gyr 'E' which should really be called the P . . . for Pulse.

With all that said, I really want to see a supercharger for the fun panic you could cause in the spheroids as the zombie races into their midst.  Maybe the B, drop a ton of AMS ammo for UAC ammo and some lasers for the SupC.  For the Drac forces possibly facing that they would need to be issued brown pants for uniforms.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: cold1 on 12 July 2015, 21:23:00
We really didn't have an otW article on this?

This thing is awesome!  I'm about as big a fan of clan assaults as a player in this game can be.  I prefer the 4/6 assaults and pocket assaults over just about anything else.  The Kingfisher is the bully of the class.  It has good configurations (I even like the H).  It has configurations designed for different scenarios.  Awesome mech!

As much as I love the more guns than sense approach on Blood Asps, Night Gyrs, and Nova Cats, those mech ALWAYS roll with at least one Kingfisher.  Two 'Fishers make a mean anchor with 3 of them (or an Executioner).  If there's no zell involved some of the long range versions of the gunboats with the in your fAce 'Fishers can be devastating.

The Bears have the toughest clan assault and the most mobile clan assault... CHEATERS!!!!!

I second the SC variant becoming real.  Be nice for the Bears to have one that could run and with the Executioner.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Savage Coyote on 12 July 2015, 22:02:18
I've always had a place for this guy (usually D, E, H, or Prime)  I'll detail those haha

Prime is obvious and jymset hits the note perfectly.  You can't beat pair LPL's with appropriate backup weapons and all that armor and standard engine.  Good stuff

D - Rage got me started on this guy under BV one where I'd field the Savage Coyote B (1850's BV1,) Kingfisher D (1950's BV) and Blood Asp C(?) (1950's BV) and then two cheapish mediums (Stormcrow C and uh, doesn't matter)  That star (or ones where I subbed the Blood Asp out for a Warhammer IIC *insert flavor*) would under-BV the Fan Grand Council opponents who wanted to bring Warhawks Prime's and C's and Dire Wolve A's etc (aka super high BV units) The cheapness, ruggedness, and firepower of all the units really helped in the duels.  I'd pair the Kingfisher (or Warhammer) up against the "best" opponent with the idea that it would wear them down.  Might not beat them (but it did happen with enough regularity to impress me,) but when that Warhawk or Dire Wolf finished it off, it was beat up and one of my others units would finish it off.

BV2?  I don't know as much as it's price did go up, but I've used it enough to know the ropes with it and would still be comfortable taking it.

E - great combination of pulse and ATM's.  I played this one and the H the same way.  Run every turn towards the dueling opponents firing everything you have and force that opponent to deal with you.  You get close enough those HE ATM's are not fun... for your opponent!

H - I used this and Warhammer IIC 3's a lot when I was playing as Blood Spirits and played them both the same way, mad dog rushing at the opponent as I tried to get into optimal range.  The HLL's are "nice enough" though the pulse batteries on both doe the heavy lifting.  it was cheapish IIRC under BV1 and was worth taking against someone who didn't see it coming.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: SteelRaven on 12 July 2015, 22:35:28
It's surprising we see so many Ghost Bears piloting Kodiak's when the Kingfisher exist but that's only because the rule of cool is followed by all in fiction.     
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 12 July 2015, 22:36:53
I had SUCH disrespect for this mech when I first saw it.
That 360-SFE reminded me so much of the Cyclops & even the Banshee.
Just too fast & needed to be 3/5 or XL,  or so I thought.

Then I faced one down in my Warhawk & it just about kicked my arse. 
Yeah, I won, but man was my armor trashed, that thing would JUST NOT DIE!
I learned to respect it that day & it has been a favorite ever since.
The Kingfisher & D-Wolf are my Go-to Assaults in any situation where I don't need a Garg to keep up with the Heavies.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: GreekFire on 12 July 2015, 23:16:13
Fantastic write-up, it's refreshing to read one of your articles once more!!

I'll second what people are saying about the X. Tried it in a campaign, it smashed stupid amounts of face. Never saw the parallel between it and the new Executioner, but I'm definitely seeing it now. I'm ashamed to say that I ignored that variant (mostly) in favor of the "I", but that'll have to change.

Definitely a fun unit to run, unless you lose it within a turn or two to a headcapper of course.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Redshirt on 12 July 2015, 23:50:51
This is an assault mech I have always enjoyed using when given the opportunity. With regards to the H Variant, I wonder if it would have been better if the weapons loadout had two Large Pulse Lasers and four Heavy Medium Lasers instead...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: worktroll on 12 July 2015, 23:53:46
Just a question - is the art, and the mini, meant to depict the A config? Is there a possible reason why the mini wasn't the Prime variant (eg. the version published in the original source was the A for some reason)?

W.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 13 July 2015, 00:10:30
Another one of those mechs I had read about bypassed and then looked at again later.

I'm impressed: an that's really all I have to say. It's got some good configs (I've used the C and D) it's a solid zombie and it's from my faction.

Lovely mech for a second line unit, and a nice machine to balance out your front line Cluster.

Nice write up
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: marauder648 on 13 July 2015, 00:29:07
A great article :)  Well written and funny and there's nothing wrong with a good ramble!  I kind of see the A as a different flavour of the Prime, its a generalist and anchor unit in a similar vein to the Prime and F which in my head was an A that got damaged and then retrofitted and the config stuck.
I always took the X as more of a trials unit, basically a tech demonstrator to try out the ER pulsers and IHL's as well as the Artemis V system and again the Bears looked at the config, found it good and stuck with it. 

Its great to see the methodoligy that went into the design of this mech, sure you can overlook it because pfft 24 tonnes of pod space, but its better protected than anything in the Clan inventory save the Dire Wolf and those 24 tonnes are used for the most part very very cleverly, there's no donkey configs with UAC/LB-2/5's sticking out of it or anything.  Its very efficient with what its got.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 July 2015, 01:17:04
Dunno . . . you could sort of do a Nova Cat C version with this (light on the ACs) . . . 2 Large Pulse, ER Large and a LB-5X with a single ton . . . or you reverse the amount of the Larges and you have 2 tons more to play with for equipment.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Grey on 13 July 2015, 02:42:15
Good article, though I do think you're underestimating the A a little, it's another generalist in my opinion, though a different flavour from the Prime. But that's just an opinion, the breakdown of the configurations is pretty insightful.

That being said I'm a latecomer to the Kingfisher, though after being forced to use Field Manual RATs I've come to find a place for all of them to one degree or another, there's something to be said for that downright monsterous survivability the armour and engine provide, even if you are reduced to kicking the enemy's kneecaps off. ;D
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: gyedid on 13 July 2015, 09:46:50
Although this is fluffed as being a Bear 'Mech, I think the Blood Spirits and Steel Vipers would've liked it as well, since both Clans were known to favour 'Mechs with standard engines.

Has anything more been made of the possible connection between this 'Mech and the Pulverizer? 

And looking at it alongside the first-generation Omnis from Era Digest:  Golden Century, it does seem like it belongs with that group.

cheers,

Gabe
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: The Eagle on 13 July 2015, 09:55:30
I've always loved the brutal simplicity of an assault 'Mech that does.  Not.  Die.  It's one of the reasons I love the AWS-8Q so much.  The Kingfisher was heavily used by my two favorite Clans, the Bears and Spirits, so I took some time to really get to know the chassis back in the day.  I had such a healthy respect for it that I used to field it in pretty good numbers against opponents in the FGC; the Charlie variant with its double-peepers and lasers was one of my favorite duelists to take into Trials of Possession.

My only regret is that I've never actually bought a miniature for it.  I need at least one for my 1st Bear Guards force, for sure.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: cold1 on 13 July 2015, 10:27:42
The miniature is, unfortunate.  Second on my list of needs a resculpt behind the Night Gyr.

Considering the Adders based the Blood Asp off the Kingfisher... I feel it's appropriate for my Adders to have them... always. 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: The Eagle on 13 July 2015, 10:30:40
The miniature is, unfortunate.  Second on my list of needs a resculpt behind the Night Gyr.

I've seen worse.  The Verfolger for instance, or the Anvil (which isn't that bad, just impossible to repose.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: jymset on 13 July 2015, 13:49:00
With all that said, I really want to see a supercharger for the fun panic you could cause in the spheroids as the zombie races into their midst.  Maybe the B, drop a ton of AMS ammo for UAC ammo and some lasers for the SupC.  For the Drac forces possibly facing that they would need to be issued brown pants for uniforms.

Ah, but the only factor that stipulates supercharger mass is the weight of the engine. And the Kingfisher's engine is a hulking monstrosity. So you'd have to invest 3.5 tons. In your example, that would mean... .5 tons out of AMS (its ammo goes to the UAC/20), and 3 ERML. I'm not sure that 1 ERSL, 1 ERML, 1 ERLL and 1 UAC/20 is enough to make this really scary?

Yeah, I'd not recommend a SC Kingfisher. And this is factually coming from the SC's most rabid advocate.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: jymset on 13 July 2015, 13:50:54
I'll second what people are saying about the X. Tried it in a campaign, it smashed stupid amounts of face. Never saw the parallel between it and the new Executioner, but I'm definitely seeing it now. I'm ashamed to say that I ignored that variant (mostly) in favor of the "I", but that'll have to change.

:o I'd actually been thinking of the Mad Dog, but now that you've said it... you're absolutely right, of course! O0
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 July 2015, 14:39:20
Yeah, I played with it in HMP- largest SC I have seen!

Forget dropping the AMS (move it for the SC) but drop off the cERLL (odd saying that as a huge fan of the weapon) and ERSL, put in another ERML or maybe a HML for the punch- or that other ton of ammo.  Actually, the long range can be compensated for . . . a handheld LRM weapon?

I actually like it better on a Nova C rip off- LPL, ERLL, LB-5X and some lighter lasers.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 July 2015, 15:17:15
Was it the Tukayyid SB that had the in-universe IS analyst theorizing that one of the values of the Kingfisher was how it fit into the Clan bidding process.

A prospective Clan officer could bid away a Kingfisher.. he doesn't lose as much firepower as if he had cut a Masakari or Daishi but the bottom line is still that he cut an Assault omni from the bid.  If his competition did not also have a Kingfisher to bid away, matching the bid would cause a deeper hurt to his proposed force.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 13 July 2015, 15:30:08
Though if both sides get rid of one assault, both sides are one assault short.
Losing less because you had less doesn't suddenly put you in front.  ;)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Scotty on 13 July 2015, 15:34:22
Though if both sides get rid of one assault, both sides are one assault short.
Losing less because you had less doesn't suddenly put you in front.  ;)

It does in the Clan bidding process.  If you brought a Kingfisher along specifically to bid away, you weren't counting on it anyway, and suddenly your opponent is down a much more dangerous 'Mech than you are.

Clan bidding calculus is not as simple as people make it out to be.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 July 2015, 15:38:57
Though if both sides get rid of one assault, both sides are one assault short.
Losing less because you had less doesn't suddenly put you in front.  ;)


That's how the Clan bidding process works.  Or is supposed to.  Or used to.  Whatever, I'm a grognard.  Officer A competes against Officer B from the same Clan, probably the same Cluster, for the honor of leading a Trial.  If A cuts a Kingfisher, B has to either cut an Assault as well or forfeit the honor of leading the assault to A.  And if B's assaults are all Masakaris/Daishis/the like, he might be close enough to the cutdown that he can't afford to do so when A can because the mech in question is a Kingfisher with only 24 tons of offense.

Edit: Nijad.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 July 2015, 16:14:42
On the flipside . . . he could put forward a bid dropping a heavy mech but it has to be deemed a 'lower' bid of forces.  Question is does the Oathmaster for the bidding buy that a say Summoner has more value for the Trial than a Kingfisher.  The Summoner may not, but if they also threw out a point or two of Elementals than it gets a lot more speculative.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 July 2015, 16:21:44
I doubt the Kingfisher was actually designed to be bid away as the SB observer speculated.  However its qualities does give it the ability to be (ab)used in novel ways during bidding.  I don't think there's any fluff or lore explaining an in-universe analogue to BV.  A Kingfisher might be "worth" a lighter omni, but if the rules of the bid only recognize factors like omni vs battlemech, weight class, and frontline/second line, a bidder can use wiggle room to get some bang for the buck in spending a Kingfisher to get the other guy to spend something scarier (as Scotty put it).  Even the mere threat of such a move is a tool in of itself.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 July 2015, 16:29:02
Yeah, I played with it in HMP- largest SC I have seen!

Forget dropping the AMS (move it for the SC) but drop off the cERLL (odd saying that as a huge fan of the weapon) and ERSL, put in another ERML or maybe a HML for the punch- or that other ton of ammo.  Actually, the long range can be compensated for . . . a handheld LRM weapon?

I actually like it better on a Nova C rip off- LPL, ERLL, LB-5X and some lighter lasers.
I was fiddling around in SSW last night, and IIRC you can fit a SC onto an E ripoff that trades the pulse lasers for ER versions.  I think it even had the room for a TC to gain some to-hit bonus back.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Fletch on 13 July 2015, 17:51:32
One of my favourite clan mechs for how it is usually treated by players:

Start of game: Player1 - "A Kingfisher, how cute" *shoots all the other mechs*

Turn 15: PLayer1 - "This thing just won't die!!!"
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 13 July 2015, 17:57:17
One of my favourite clan mechs for how it is usually treated by players:

Start of game: Player1 - "A Kingfisher, how cute" *shoots all the other mechs*

Turn 15: PLayer1 - "This thing just won't die!!!"
See this is why I wanted an open tech tournament. Kingfisher X and Executioner I. You brought LPLs. That's cute.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: worktroll on 13 July 2015, 18:33:41
A quick comparison of AS stats tells as much as I want to know. Purely looking at the Prime versions:

Summoner 10"j, TMM 2, 4/4/2 OV0, A6 S4.
Kingfisher 8", TMM 1, 6/6/3 OV1, A9 S7

Two hits by the Kingfisher, vs. four by the Summoner. Outside a canyons & craters environment, stick to the Kingfisher.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 July 2015, 18:59:49
Summoner was just something I threw out for a bidding comparison.  Go with a Night Gyr if you wish, same movement after all.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 13 July 2015, 22:16:01
Played a game against a cocky player in a custom Summoner. Needing to find a BV equal Mech quickly I grabbed a Kingfisher. It wasn't pretty but I ground him into the dirt.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: mbear on 14 July 2015, 07:07:55
RE: The anti-vehicle config: Since the Kingfisher is used extensively by the Ghost Bears, and the Ghost Bears had a major hate for Hell's Horses, and Hell's Horses use a lot of vehicles, it makes sense that the Ghost Bears would create an anti-vehicle config to face the Hell's Horses vehicles. Maybe assign the config to a solamha warrior?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 July 2015, 17:28:48
Or just to have available for when one of you raids the other.

I've used the Kingfisher a lot.  It's a very fun mech.  The X is hilarious, but I like the Prime, A, and C as well.  The B just never seems to perform well for me, and I've never bothered with any of the other configs.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 14 July 2015, 19:04:23
A quick comparison of AS stats tells as much as I want to know. Purely looking at the Prime versions:

Summoner 10"j, TMM 2, 4/4/2 OV0, A6 S4.
Kingfisher 8", TMM 1, 6/6/3 OV1, A9 S7

Two hits by the Kingfisher, vs. four by the Summoner. Outside a canyons & craters environment, stick to the Kingfisher.
Shouldn't the Summoner have a TMM of +3 ?   Isn't that was 5JJ generates ?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 14 July 2015, 19:07:16
Although this is fluffed as being a Bear 'Mech, I think the Blood Spirits and Steel Vipers would've liked it as well, since both Clans were known to favour 'Mechs with standard engines.

And looking at it alongside the first-generation Omnis from Era Digest:  Golden Century, it does seem like it belongs with that group.
IIRC its the most common Assault-O in the Spirits.
I think the Fisher qualifies as 1st Gen Assault doesn't it?   I mean, its the oldest one we have stats for IIRC. 
I think it might has some fluff as being the oldest Assault-Omni,  or maybe I'm thinking of the Kirg for oldest Heavy-O-Fighter.  Or maybe its both.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Weirdo on 14 July 2015, 19:10:33
Shouldn't the Summoner have a TMM of +3 ?   Isn't that was 5JJ generates ?

The 2 is the base TMM. Since you only get the +1 from jumping when you actually jump, that's not on the card.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Scotty on 14 July 2015, 20:01:52
Shouldn't the Summoner have a TMM of +3 ?   Isn't that was 5JJ generates ?

There was a change to how jumping works in Alpha Strike a while back (~7 months) that made jumping a separate movement type that must be declared when moving, not an 'always on' feature.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 15 July 2015, 02:08:33
Or just to have available for when one of you raids the other.

I've used the Kingfisher a lot.  It's a very fun mech.  The X is hilarious, but I like the Prime, A, and C as well.  The B just never seems to perform well for me, and I've never bothered with any of the other configs.
I like having my ego stroked (and it tells me what works for future projects ). Describe hilarious.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 July 2015, 02:27:08
A friend and I were throwing random Advanced/Experimental mechs at each other and I took the X against a Colossus and just beat the stuffing out of it- there's a certain analogy involving the speed at which excrement passes through a large waterfowl that comes to mind.  The Colossus is if anything even more durable than the Kingfisher, so I was expecting it to be this zombie slugfest and instead the Colossus just kind of disintegrated.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: cold1 on 15 July 2015, 06:48:10
Summoner was just something I threw out for a bidding comparison.  Go with a Night Gyr if you wish, same movement after all.

The Night Gyr is a glass hammer compared to the Kingfisher... still my favorite mech though!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Nightsong on 15 July 2015, 07:43:55
Had a scary concept suddenly, when I checked the Master Unit list and see it as IS General during the civil war. Suddenly imagining a modded C with one less ERML, 2 less HS, for C3, ECM for counterjamming, and maybe a light TAG for a nasty C3 point man. Hey, if the Sharks are selling...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 15 July 2015, 09:14:11
Could make a C3M. After all, "not dying" is pretty high on the list for Masters. ;D
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Maelwys on 15 July 2015, 09:58:00
Had a scary concept suddenly, when I checked the Master Unit list and see it as IS General during the civil war. Suddenly imagining a modded C with one less ERML, 2 less HS, for C3, ECM for counterjamming, and maybe a light TAG for a nasty C3 point man. Hey, if the Sharks are selling...

Does..that seem weird to anyone else? IS General, IS Clan General, Mercenary and Kell Hounds for both the Civil War and Jihad Era? Followed by a drop to just the Sharks, Nova Cats, Bears, Ravens and RotS?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: The Eagle on 15 July 2015, 13:02:03
Does..that seem weird to anyone else? IS General, IS Clan General, Mercenary and Kell Hounds for both the Civil War and Jihad Era? Followed by a drop to just the Sharks, Nova Cats, Bears, Ravens and RotS?

It does sound really weird, actually.  I'm going to assume at this point that it's a mistake.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Caedis Animus on 16 July 2015, 01:23:40
More art-related than anything, but I've always been wary about getting a Kingfisher from IWM because it's got a bad case of "Wheres your cockpit"-itus. It looks like it has two, and that confuses me.

Anyways, I need to try this 'mech soon. Its evidently famed unkillability sounds fun.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: mbear on 16 July 2015, 06:02:38
More art-related than anything, but I've always been wary about getting a Kingfisher from IWM because it's got a bad case of "Wheres your cockpit"-itus. It looks like it has two, and that confuses me.

That's the point: Hopefully the jerk shooting at you will be confused too!

"Headshot! He's dead!"

Kingfisher returns fire

"Crap! He's only mostly dead!"
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: cavingjan on 16 July 2015, 11:07:20
The omnis that CSJ used heavily tended to become IS General after their fall. Dashers, Koshies, Lokies, Thors, etc.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: cold1 on 16 July 2015, 11:20:06
That's the point: Hopefully the jerk shooting at you will be confused too!

"Headshot! He's dead!"

Kingfisher returns fire

"Crap! He's only mostly dead!"

Yup!  He's got no arms, 1 side torso, I thought I shot his head off and he's still shooting me with a ERPPC/LPL/ERLL and putting big holes in me from way over yonder.  Basically sums it up.

Did I mention I love this thing... oh wait yes I did! ;D
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 16 July 2015, 21:11:43
The omnis that CSJ used heavily tended to become IS General after their fall. Dashers, Koshies, Lokies, Thors, etc.
Aye, you beat me to it.
CSJ had the KF pretty heavy in its RAT's IIRC, behind the Hawk but above the Wolf, or maybe vice/versa, or close to one of them.
So not surprising to see it be more common for a while then fade out as new supplies were cut off from the homeworlds.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 19 July 2015, 18:11:25
Although this is fluffed as being a Bear 'Mech, I think the Blood Spirits and Steel Vipers would've liked it as well, since both Clans were known to favour 'Mechs with standard engines.

Has anything more been made of the possible connection between this 'Mech and the Pulverizer? 

And looking at it alongside the first-generation Omnis from Era Digest:  Golden Century, it does seem like it belongs with that group.

cheers,

Gabe

Eh? Nothing from the fluff ever mentions that it's a Ghost Bear 'Mech, only that it was first spotted among their forces. If anything, it's about equal between them and the Smoke Jaguars, though I doubt either of them came up with the design despite favoring Assault 'Mechs like they do (I'm still betting on the Snow Ravens myself). Still, it's probably more common among the Blood Spirits (which is probably also why the Star Adders decided to base their Blood Asp on it). As for the Steel Vipers they, like most Clans, favor the Gargoyle if only due to accessibility.

Ah, but the only factor that stipulates supercharger mass is the weight of the engine. And the Kingfisher's engine is a hulking monstrosity. So you'd have to invest 3.5 tons. In your example, that would mean... .5 tons out of AMS (its ammo goes to the UAC/20), and 3 ERML. I'm not sure that 1 ERSL, 1 ERML, 1 ERLL and 1 UAC/20 is enough to make this really scary?

Yeah, I'd not recommend a SC Kingfisher. And this is factually coming from the SC's most rabid advocate.

So bite the bullet and downgrade the autocannon, then. I'd recommend using a cRAC/5. Less damage but the added range and heat savings would make it worth it. Also allows you to keep most of the secondary armament, only needing to sacrifice the AMS.


EDIT: Confused two bland snake Clans for one another. Oops. ::)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 July 2015, 18:41:01
I don't really see anything about it that indicates that the Ravens built it.  Given its age, just about anyone could have originally designed it.  Actually, it could even be a Coyote design.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 19 July 2015, 18:44:02
I don't really see anything about it that indicates that the Ravens built it.  Given its age, just about anyone could have originally designed it.  Actually, it could even be a Coyote design.

Possible, but the Coyotes always struck me as an old school Lyran Wall of Steel type Clan, which is just reinforced with their Savage Coyote. It just seems too fast for them.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 July 2015, 18:56:03
With the exception of the Hellions, all the Clans have shown themselves to be willing to design and use mechs that don't fit their standard favorite paradigm.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 19 July 2015, 19:06:23
With the exception of the Hellions, all the Clans have shown themselves to be willing to design and use mechs that don't fit their standard favorite paradigm.

I'll give you that, I suppose. The Viper doesn't fit Mandrill doctrine very well and the Hell's Horses have their raging hard-on for conventional designs which makes the idea of them designing two of the Original 16 (and began work on a third before another Clan finished it) somewhat laughable.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 July 2015, 19:08:46
With the Horses that sort of makes sense . . . they were discouraged away from it, lol.

Seriously, who would it be outside the norm to have been the designer of the Kingfisher?  I will grant the Ice Hellions, maybe the Blood Spirits due to getting a hold of Omni tech, the Mandrills because cooperation, maybe the Coyotes for being too fast in a assault and . . . ?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 July 2015, 19:10:43
Still, it's probably more common among the Blood Spirits (which is probably also why the Steel Vipers decided to base their Blood Asp on it). As for the Steel Vipers they, like most Clans, favor the Gargoyle if only due to accessibility.
FYI, STAR ADDERS made the Blood Asp.  Not the Vipers.
Me, I'm betting whoever designed it is the clan that captured the Wolverines factory that made that 90t predecessor to it.
The biggest reason I think people pick the Bears it its mentioned with them & they are 1 of 2 clans noted as having factories on Strana Mechty.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 19 July 2015, 19:15:21
With the Horses that sort of makes sense . . . they were discouraged away from it, lol.

Seriously, who would it be outside the norm to have been the designer of the Kingfisher?  I will grant the Ice Hellions, maybe the Blood Spirits due to getting a hold of Omni tech, the Mandrills because cooperation, maybe the Coyotes for being too fast in a assault and . . . ?

If you go with the theory of it being based off the Pulverizer, the best bet would be Clan Snow Raven (reparations for Dehra Dun) or Clan Coyote due to the Coyotl being painfully obvious as a tarted-up Omni Mercury II.

If you go with Assault 'Mech loving Clans in general, look no further than Clans Coyote, Ghost Bear, Smoke Jaguar and Star Adder. Though the Adders would be a massive longshot as they based the Blood Asp on the Kingfisher due to how much the Blood Spirits use it.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 19 July 2015, 19:16:43
FYI, STAR ADDERS made the Blood Asp.  Not the Vipers.
Me, I'm betting whoever designed it is the clan that captured the Wolverines factory that made that 90t predecessor to it.
The biggest reason I think people pick the Bears it its mentioned with them & they are 1 of 2 clans noted as having factories on Strana Mechty.

Yeah, that was a brain fart on my part. Though you could have pointed that out a little less rudely. ::)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 July 2015, 19:29:29
Seriously, who would it be outside the norm to have been the designer of the Kingfisher?  I will grant the Ice Hellions, maybe the Blood Spirits due to getting a hold of Omni tech, the Mandrills because cooperation, maybe the Coyotes for being too fast in a assault and . . . ?

Early Omni = Yotes or Wolves
Strana Mechty = Bears or Wolves
SFE = Vipers, Wolves, & Yotes
Assault Mech = Bears, Yotes, Jags
Notes as being used by = Bears & Jags
Super Traders & none of the pre-58 Omni's are theres? = Sharks

Unlikely = Speed & Omni = Hellions & Spirits.

No one else has a leg up or down = Adders, Burrocks, Cats, Cobras, Falcons, Horses, Mandrills, Ravens, Scorps

It could be all but those 2 unlikely options, but, I'd say its probably one of the 6 above them for the reasons listed.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 July 2015, 19:32:07
Yeah, that was a brain fart on my part. Though you could have pointed that out a little less rudely. ::)
That was not the intent.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: worktroll on 19 July 2015, 19:50:49
It does have a Coyote feel to it - before they stopped wasting pod space on speed demons like the Kingfisher ;)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 20 July 2015, 02:06:51
With the exception of the Hellions, all the Clans have shown themselves to be willing to design and use mechs that don't fit their standard favorite paradigm.
The first two Coyote omnis were a 7/11 40 tonner and a 5/8 60 tonner, I don't think a ;/6 assault would be that far out of line.  The Lyran wall of steel included a lot of Banshees and Zeuses, after all.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 20 July 2015, 03:33:57
I don't really see anything about it that indicates that the Ravens built it.  Given its age, just about anyone could have originally designed it.  Actually, it could even be a Coyote design.

Ever since we learned about the pulverizer, I started viewing the kingfisher as an evolved version of that earlier design. Same mass and movement profile, and the primary configuration has some similarities. Since the Ravens still claim (according to Tech Manual) the Pulverizer as their first indigenous design, I could see them turning out an omni version under a new name to retain its capabilities while finally distancing themselves from the legacy of the original. Not that I have any proof though...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Rage on 20 July 2015, 13:29:08
Ever since we learned about the pulverizer, I started viewing the kingfisher as an evolved version of that earlier design. Same mass and movement profile, and the primary configuration has some similarities. Since the Ravens still claim (according to Tech Manual) the Pulverizer as their first indigenous design, I could see them turning out an omni version under a new name to retain its capabilities while finally distancing themselves from the legacy of the original. Not that I have any proof though...

Considering that TPTB decided to have the Ponies do the initial legwork on the Stormcrow solely due to their having made the Corvus (yet kept the Summoner as a Jade Falcon 'Mech despite the Sharks having made the Thresher), that's certainly a possibility.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 17 March 2017, 11:39:00
We really didn't have an otW article on this?

This thing is awesome!  I'm about as big a fan of clan assaults as a player in this game can be.  I prefer the 4/6 assaults and pocket assaults over just about anything else.  The Kingfisher is the bully of the class.  It has good configurations (I even like the H).  It has configurations designed for different scenarios.  Awesome mech!

As much as I love the more guns than sense approach on Blood Asps, Night Gyrs, and Nova Cats, those mech ALWAYS roll with at least one Kingfisher.  Two 'Fishers make a mean anchor with 3 of them (or an Executioner).  If there's no zell involved some of the long range versions of the gunboats with the in your fAce 'Fishers can be devastating.

The Bears have the toughest clan assault and the most mobile clan assault... CHEATERS!!!!!

I second the SC variant becoming real.  Be nice for the Bears to have one that could run and with the Executioner.

Great write up. Now if only we could get a new model for it...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 17 March 2017, 14:13:55
During one of our RP events on the fan board section, I was Khan for the Blood Spirits. During a Trial my Kingfisher stood alone against four 'Mechs, the rest of my force having gone down. She was down to her ER Llaser in the CT. Then the OpFor dropped like flies against her. If they only could just get a good hit on her battered body! That armless Kingfisher won the trial for me.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Firesprocket on 17 March 2017, 23:18:36
The last Kingfisher I got to play with was only eliminated after orbital bombardment was call on to destroy it  O0.  Needless to say I like it in pretty much any form.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Decoy on 17 March 2017, 23:49:26
During one of our RP events on the fan board section, I was Khan for the Blood Spirits. During a Trial my Kingfisher stood alone against four 'Mechs, the rest of my force having gone down. She was down to her ER Llaser in the CT. Then the OpFor dropped like flies against her. If they only could just get a good hit on her battered body! That armless Kingfisher won the trial for me.

I think, during the same Fan Grand Council, I had a run in with three Kingfishers. I figure it's been more than ten years and it's OK to tell it now....but I was asked by the GMs to play a Smoke Jaguar raider in one of the little raids they had going on. I selected what I thought was a solid Jaguar medium star that included an Ebon Jaguar, a Nova, a Mist Lynx and two other 'mechs I forgot. The BV was handed over to the Ghost Bear Khan and he responded with... three Kingfishers piloted by his PC and two of his best Keshik warriors. After a grueling battle, my intrepid band of Smoke Jaguar remnants finally won. The last 'mech standing was the Nova with one arm and three CT points left. I got lucky on one Kingfisher, but the other two I had to bludgeon to death. And this was only the most notable run in I had with the Kingfisher. It was very popular in that FGC.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 March 2017, 21:59:36
Has any one modified the model to represent another variant?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Heavyguard on 22 March 2017, 14:12:07
Has any one modified the model to represent another variant?

IamClanWolf did one - http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48974.0 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48974.0)

Siberian-Troll has done several along with some photobashes for other ones - http://siberian-troll.deviantart.com/art/Kingfisher-01-478800800 (http://siberian-troll.deviantart.com/art/Kingfisher-01-478800800) http://siberian-troll.deviantart.com/art/Kingfisher-02-478800808 (http://siberian-troll.deviantart.com/art/Kingfisher-02-478800808)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 April 2017, 22:12:29
Fantastic info thanks!!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 09 April 2017, 14:49:24
During one of our RP events on the fan board section, I was Khan for the Blood Spirits. During a Trial my Kingfisher stood alone against four 'Mechs, the rest of my force having gone down. She was down to her ER Llaser in the CT. Then the OpFor dropped like flies against her. If they only could just get a good hit on her battered body! That armless Kingfisher won the trial for me.

The last Kingfisher I got to play with was only eliminated after orbital bombardment was call on to destroy it  O0.  Needless to say I like it in pretty much any form.

When I first saw it, I was like, great, a clan Cyclops, oversized engine, lack of firepower, its going to suck.

Then the Prime configuration was my 1st opponent in a ToP.
I nearly didn't qualify to be a warrior because that thing would NOT die to my modified Warhawk-C w/ AMS.

Now I have nothing but respect for the Kingfisher & use it and the Direwolf in my Assault formations more than any other mechs for loads of massed Stamina & Firepower.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 09:44:44
I'll put in an argument that the Kingfisher could be a Jade Falcon creation:
They were an early OmniMech adopter (the second actually), and they favor mobility. And in a way (toughness, SFE), the 'Mech reminds me of the Wakazashi, the early Clan assault 'Mech created by Jade Falcons.
Admittedly this is not very definitive. And if the Kingfisher were a Falcon creation, they certainly didn't keep using it.

That said, we lack information. TRO Golden Century will probably enlighten us. Considering how the Clans regarded the OmniMech a pretty big deal, there is awfully few early OmniMechs known so far. And there are long periods with no new designs, like the 36-year period between the Kit Fox and Mist Lynx or the 13-year period between Fire Moth and Kingfisher.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 27 April 2017, 12:52:47
I'll put in an argument that the Kingfisher could be a Jade Falcon creation:
They were an early OmniMech adopter (the second actually), and they favor mobility. And in a way (toughness, SFE), the 'Mech reminds me of the Wakazashi, the early Clan assault 'Mech created by Jade Falcons.
Admittedly this is not very definitive. And if the Kingfisher were a Falcon creation, they certainly didn't keep using it.

That said, we lack information. TRO Golden Century will probably enlighten us. Considering how the Clans regarded the OmniMech a pretty big deal, there is awfully few early OmniMechs known so far. And there are long periods with no new designs, like the 36-year period between the Kit Fox and Mist Lynx or the 13-year period between Fire Moth and Kingfisher.
It also has a bird-themed name.  Granted that's highly circumstantial, but the name would make more sense on a Falcon mech than, say, a Hell's Horse or Star Adder one.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 27 April 2017, 12:55:37
Well, Blood Kite is also a bird name and it's a Blood Spirit 'Mech.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 27 April 2017, 13:02:26
I've always kind of wondered if a couple of Clan names got mixed up from that era. The Cauldron-Born was named for the "unstoppable zombies of Irish myth", but it's not an overly durable Mech- the Kingfisher certainly is, but its name seems more akin to an avian-styled design like the Cauldron-Born is.

Probably not really the case, since they debuted in different books, but it always struck me that the Kingfisher's name didn't really fit it well.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 13:07:46
I've always kind of wondered if a couple of Clan names got mixed up from that era. The Cauldron-Born was named for the "unstoppable zombies of Irish myth", but it's not an overly durable Mech- the Kingfisher certainly is, but its name seems more akin to an avian-styled design like the Cauldron-Born is.

Probably not really the case, since they debuted in different books, but it always struck me that the Kingfisher's name didn't really fit it well.

Someone busted this myth in the Cauldron-Born thread.
Short version: Both 'Mechs first appeared in different products and neither book shared any writers, and Kingfisher predates the Ebon Jaguar by a year or so anyway.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 27 April 2017, 13:15:14
Yeah, I noted that in my post (not the reference to the Cauldron-Born thread, but that they came from different products). That said, we know that books often are planned out years in advance (see: Jihad series), so it's possible both were in the works before either of their first appearances debuted.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 27 April 2017, 13:20:59
Is it even for sure that "Kingfisher" is the Clans' own name for the mech rather than the Inner Sphere's Reporting Name?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 27 April 2017, 13:22:01
Yeah, I noted that in my post (not the reference to the Cauldron-Born thread, but that they came from different products). That said, we know that books often are planned out years in advance (see: Jihad series), so it's possible both were in the works before either of their first appearances debuted.
Isn't Ebon Jaguar the Clan name? With Cauldron-Born being the Inner Sphere call sign?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 13:22:12
Yeah, I noted that in my post (not the reference to the Cauldron-Born thread, but that they came from different products). That said, we know that books often are planned out years in advance (see: Jihad series), so it's possible both were in the works before either of their first appearances debuted.

The original Jihad idea was pretty different from the final result, no? While the ideas may predate their release by years, this does not mean details are worked out well before release.

Also, i seem to recall that someone mentioned the Kingfisher appeared in some magazine first, before appearing... Black Thorns? Anyway, if so wouldn't this reduce the possibility if it being planned out?

That said, the Kingfisher has more zombie-like visual style while the Cauldron-Born brings mind a bird...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 13:24:38
Is it even for sure that "Kingfisher" is the Clans' own name for the mech rather than the Inner Sphere's Reporting Name?
Pretty sure it is the Clan name. The Shadow Cat is another case of a 'Mech lacking a reporting name completely.

Isn't Ebon Jaguar the Clan name? With Cauldron-Born being the Inner Sphere call sign?
Yes.

Oddly, the Clans adopted the reporting name to the point it is perhaps more common than the name Ebon Jaguar.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 27 April 2017, 13:54:26
Isn't Ebon Jaguar the Clan name? With Cauldron-Born being the Inner Sphere call sign?

It is, but unless someone is aware of info I'm not we didn't know the Clan name for the machine for a long time. (And still don't for the Kingfisher, whether or not it's an IS name or Clan-given)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 27 April 2017, 14:11:45
Isn't Ebon Jaguar the Clan name? With Cauldron-Born being the Inner Sphere call sign?
Yes to both. With the in-universe explanation being that the 'Mech was still so new when the IS name got used the Clans liked it as much (particularly for the non-Smoke Jaguars) that the IS name ended up sticking in Clan use.

Going back to the Kingfisher, it's possible that one of the two bird-Clans (Falcons, Ravens) designed it and named it ignoring the lack of bird-like features or the fact it doesn't really match the description of the bird itself: "small to medium sized birds with large heads, long, sharp, pointed bills, short legs, and stubby tails" None of that really matches the 'Mech. It could just be they liked the name.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 27 April 2017, 16:06:08
I believe the Kingfisher is probably more associated with heraldry than snazzy birds of prey.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: SteelRaven on 27 April 2017, 16:50:46
You do realize the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf don't look anything like wolves, right? They named the Kingfisher after a bird of prey because it's a predator. 

And before we put too much meaning behind the name of the mech being a direct hint to clan, the Wolves created the Sun Cobra and Ghost Bear Smoke Jaguar created the Mad Dog.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 17:05:07
You do realize the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf don't look anything like wolves, right? They named the Kingfisher after a bird of prey because it's a predator. 

And before we put too much meaning behind the name of the mech being a direct hint to clan, the Wolves created the Sun Cobra and Ghost Bear created the Mad Dog.

The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.

Also, the Mad Dog is a Smoke Jaguar creation, borrowing the leg assembly of the Timber Wolf and being named Mad Dog as an insult toward the Wolves. And its vulture-like profile might be another layer of insult, comparing Wolves to scavengers...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: SteelRaven on 27 April 2017, 17:41:00
The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.
Guess it's like a Rorschach test because I don't see it. Especially considering the T-Wolf was noted to be in part inspired in part by the B-29 Bomber. 

Also, the Mad Dog is a Smoke Jaguar creation, borrowing the leg assembly of the Timber Wolf and being named Mad Dog as an insult toward the Wolves. And its vulture-like profile might be another layer of insult, comparing Wolves to scavengers...

Thanks for the correction. I know the name Mad Dog was meant as a insult to the T-Wolf but considering the utilitarian nature of the 3050 Omnis, think only the IS made the connection with the Vulture like profile when they named it.

Like wise, some people see something bird like about the Night Gyr. I don't, though a ton of people see a Space Marine on the MWO forum (*groan*)

Point being the name rarely has anything to do with the appearance unless the artist decides to do something special. On top of that, the Clans love naming their mechs after animals (Stone Rhino, Glass Spider, Vapor Eagle) mythological is more of a IS trait that IS Clans adopted in part to mock IS forces (Jupiter to one up the Zeus, Hel because the Loki designation) 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 17:55:39
The Night Gyr has vaguely bird-like lines on it. That one protrusion under the cockpit looks a bit like a beak, and the shoulders bring mind a bird slightly spreading its wings. The beak is more visible in painted minis.
Overall it does manage to look more like a space marine of some kind though. Especially so with Alex Igleas' art, though i'd compare it to original StarCraft marine more than any other space marine.

I don't care for the Night Gyr for variety of reasons but ultimately it looks like something. The Kingfisher is one damn blocky blob.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 April 2017, 18:44:41
The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.

Man, you have been looking at some messed up wolves.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 April 2017, 18:56:41
A wolf with its head held low. And someone used a hammer on the ears for whatever reason. A bit stubby nose too... But overall, surprisingly wolf-like for a non-totem 'Mech. In its Prime config. And only from from directly front, the illusion vanishes quickly in other profiles.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 April 2017, 19:58:38
I don't know.  I think it looks more like the Mickey Mouse logo.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: SteelRaven on 27 April 2017, 21:09:53
This is becoming a weird combination of eye of the beholder and mech aesthetics. Ether way, we should probably move on to something more constructive. 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 April 2017, 09:44:39
I've always kind of wondered if a couple of Clan names got mixed up from that era. The Cauldron-Born was named for the "unstoppable zombies of Irish myth", but it's not an overly durable Mech- the Kingfisher certainly is, but its name seems more akin to an avian-styled design like the Cauldron-Born is.

Probably not really the case, since they debuted in different books, but it always struck me that the Kingfisher's name didn't really fit it well.

Some of the 'Mech image choices in that time frame are questionable as well. The art for the Stooping Hawk and Blood Asp appeared a TRO too late. They would have been much more appropriate for the Black Lanner and Turkina respectively.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 01 May 2017, 20:04:16
Is the king fisher still being produced post wars of reaving?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 01 May 2017, 20:16:30
Is the king fisher still being produced post wars of reaving?
It is certainly available to everyone, even Spheroids (ignoring the Homeworlds Clans for we have no data about them). But is it being made anymore? Considering how old the 'Mech is, i would imagine its production has ended long ago. But it is tough so it survives in service.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: truetanker on 01 May 2017, 20:47:19
Kingfisher A (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1779/kingfisher-a): LB-X AC/10 (20), ER PPC, medium pulse laser, ER medium laser, ER small laser, SRM 6 (15). Ah yeah. I got nothing. I'm sorry, this is one of maybe two configurations I really don't like and I've never used it (well, maybe once?) in all my years of BT. The LB-X/PPC combo is a truly great one...on a mobile ’Mech. Thor, Nobori-nin, heck even Hercules. They use the combo to have a single impressive punch, and a shotgun to follow up on it. With it, they can bully most equally mobile units just fine. But on this? It just feels so anemic and inefficient on this assault. And I'm really not impressed with the hodge podge of back up weapons, either. The Prime was versatile, this just feels messy. Sure, as mentioned in the chassis summary above, it is one of the two “undying ER PPC” configurations, but that's definitely not enough of a saving grace here.
Please, if any inclined reader would help me out finding a role for this one? But please, a better one than “hunting vehicles”—that'd just be undignified.

I have used the 'Fisher A in a scout form, a pure terror without seeming so. Also I found out that it can be used as an effective Anti-Infantry platform, either against or in support of. Also makes a great AAA unit as well.

TT
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 01 May 2017, 22:21:31
It is certainly available to everyone, even Spheroids (ignoring the Homeworlds Clans for we have no data about them). But is it being made anymore? Considering how old the 'Mech is, i would imagine its production has ended long ago. But it is tough so it survives in service.
What he said. Going forward into the Dark Age era tjere are Kingfishers available to the Bears and I think the Republic too.

As for Clan space, all signs point to no status change. I'll have to check my notes tomorrow to see if there was specific factory data in WoR.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 01 May 2017, 22:25:49
It is not listed in the "Discarded Tools of War" section of WoRS.  Though I guess that could just mean it was already out of production pre-Reaving.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 02 May 2017, 06:30:16
Found it. In the WoR Supplemental, pg 16, bottom of the left column, the Stone Lions sought out and won factories for the Kignfisher. It should be considered the core the Lions' assault OmniMechs going forward. At least that's what I was thinking win I did the 3085 RATs for WoR Supplemental. That said, the Lions took 'Mechs whenever and wherever they could, so initially they'd have a mix of most anything, even things on the Discarded Tools of War list.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 02 May 2017, 08:07:44
The other thing to remember is that as the Clans rebuild from the WoR (and the Jihad, for those who got double-punched), a big, unkillable monster that uses a cheap-as-hell SFE would be just the thing for filling out a wounded touman. If I had to pick an Omni to put into production in, say, 3085, 3090, and get back up to strength in a hurry before the neighbors find a reason to test me, I'd leap at the Kingfisher ahead of something like the Warhawk.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 02 May 2017, 08:49:19
The other thing to remember is that as the Clans rebuild from the WoR (and the Jihad, for those who got double-punched), a big, unkillable monster that uses a cheap-as-hell SFE would be just the thing for filling out a wounded touman. If I had to pick an Omni to put into production in, say, 3085, 3090, and get back up to strength in a hurry before the neighbors find a reason to test me, I'd leap at the Kingfisher ahead of something like the Warhawk.
Not only short on production, they're short on everything. Remember folks, the Horses planned their trip to the IS, they took everything of value that they could without tipping off the other Clans. Especially after the Trial of Reaving against the one Sibko facility, the Horses would have likely moved the remaining ones out to the IS, leaving the Lions with few replacements. In addition to keeping their machines survivable, they have to keep their warriors alive until they can get things cranking.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I probably should do an article on the 'Mechs of the Stone Lions, since there's not a lot of info out there and I did a lot of the planning & research into the tactics & strategies that got published in the WoR Supplemental.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 02 May 2017, 08:59:38
A Stone Lion article? That sounds interesting.

Forgot that they use and manufacture Kingfishers... and speaking of WoR Supplemental, it kinda painted a picture of the Stone Lions as a hybrid of Hell's Horses and Blood Spirits. In military doctrine that is, not attitude. Rugged, low cost machines, and combined arms warfare...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 03 May 2017, 00:11:25
Not only short on production, they're short on everything. Remember folks, the Horses planned their trip to the IS, they took everything of value that they could without tipping off the other Clans. Especially after the Trial of Reaving against the one Sibko facility, the Horses would have likely moved the remaining ones out to the IS, leaving the Lions with few replacements. In addition to keeping their machines survivable, they have to keep their warriors alive until they can get things cranking.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I probably should do an article on the 'Mechs of the Stone Lions, since there's not a lot of info out there and I did a lot of the planning & research into the tactics & strategies that got published in the WoR Supplemental.

Given that there was stuff to fight over when the Bears pulled out, I suspect the effectiveness of these operations operates on narativium.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 03 May 2017, 01:29:25
Nah, wait there.
When you're saying "cheap", what is? In every other thread we get the understandable comments saying that "cost" is outdated and not much of an argument anymore, and I'd reckon that goes double so for clan space. XL-Engines might cost more precious resources, but economically speaking, as soon as those are available, the engine shouldn't actually cost more to produce for the clans that probably produced a lot more of those than actual "standard" engines.
Besides, 'survivability of mech' doesn't do 'survivability of pilot' any favours: If the mech shuts down to a side torso loss and an engine crit, in clan space it it is probably less likely to take a gauss slug to the face after the fact.
Which is not to say the kingfisher isn't a great machine to hold a line, but when it comes to resource efficiency, as a "main" assault mech I could see an argument be made to focus more on doing damage than surviving it.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 03 May 2017, 06:39:33
Nah, wait there.
When you're saying "cheap", what is? In every other thread we get the understandable comments saying that "cost" is outdated and not much of an argument anymore, and I'd reckon that goes double so for clan space. XL-Engines might cost more precious resources, but economically speaking, as soon as those are available, the engine shouldn't actually cost more to produce for the clans that probably produced a lot more of those than actual "standard" engines.
Besides, 'survivability of mech' doesn't do 'survivability of pilot' any favours: If the mech shuts down to a side torso loss and an engine crit, in clan space it it is probably less likely to take a gauss slug to the face after the fact.
Which is not to say the kingfisher isn't a great machine to hold a line, but when it comes to resource efficiency, as a "main" assault mech I could see an argument be made to focus more on doing damage than surviving it.
By cheap I mean what's not gonna cost them a bunch of resources to build, maintain, repair, and replace. I'll go into it more in the article I'm working on right now.

Given that there was stuff to fight over when the Bears pulled out, I suspect the effectiveness of these operations operates on narativium.
I'm not certain I get what you're saying. Do you mean that when the Bears left Clan space they still left a lot of infrastructure behind for the other Clans to fight over?

If so, there's a few things different about this situation. First, when the Bears left for the IS, they didn't leave behind a Galaxy of troops that basically had to rebuild itself as a new Clan using only what was left behind. I'm not saying the Horses didn't leave anything useful or valuable behind, but that in terms of rebuilding and starting a new Clan, they didn't have everything they needed set up and running full speed. Second, there's also the destruction of the Wars of Reaving going on, leaving fewer Clans to acquire those missing parts from and as a result those remaining Clans guard them more jealously.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: truetanker on 03 May 2017, 18:21:10
I'd like to inject this thought for you to ponder...

CHH left for the IS during the WoR correct? And in doing so left a large amount of material with rear action guards deployed to defend it. When they set up their initial IS beachhead, they requested, as clan custom, SafeCon for those said materials. Some, if not most, arrived months later... losing a few tonnage each time a Trial of Possession was called, which was increasingly common. Then they were called into a major Trial by Abjuration, losing a lot of stuff from this.  We know next to nothing about the survivors, called Stone Lion or the Homeworlds. Other than Zeta and Psi Galaxies formed from three or so clusters and three light warships, 2 Lola III's and a York. Also countless Odyessy jumpships... I have a theory on this.

Taking a standard Cluster: every Trinary has 15 points. Meaning you need to transport these said points to battle. So working backwards.... Overlord-C = 45 points, Outpost / Outpost=3070 = 17 points ( 2 Aero points, 5 points each others / 22 points ( same but swap Aero for 2 Proto points and another 5 points more BA ) Sassanid / Titan-C / Union-C = 15 points, Lion-C / Lion-WD = 60 points ( 50 of PBI! ) / 16 points, Broadsword / Carrier / Confederate = 5 points.

TT
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 03 May 2017, 20:39:32
I am saying when the fluff says faction X stripped and moved a factory take it with a big grain of salt. All too often we see faction Y moving in and getting said factory working again with minimal apparent effort.
I used the Bears as a example because they had the best opportunity to strip their factories. See Tokasha's production in TRO Phoenix and 3075 for the result.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 30 November 2017, 20:53:55
The miniature is, unfortunate.  Second on my list of needs a resculpt behind the Night Gyr.

Considering the Adders based the Blood Asp off the Kingfisher... I feel it's appropriate for my Adders to have them... always.

Agreed on the need for a rescuplt! I have the mini and it is too small and lacking in the heft that I feel this mech should bring. I think I could mod the Sunder or Warhammer IIC 8 into a decent stand in. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Firesprocket on 01 December 2017, 00:04:58
While the artwork found in the Black Thorns book looks better, I think before you make another sculpt you need some better artwork to base it off of.  It certainly has more detail, but it isn't all that great looking either.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 March 2018, 19:04:08
Just a question - is the art, and the mini, meant to depict the A config? Is there a possible reason why the mini wasn't the Prime variant (eg. the version published in the original source was the A for some reason)?

W.

Good question!

Would a hammer hands be be decent basis to convert into a fisher? The current mini is very under sized but I am not sure if the hands is big enough?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 March 2018, 19:07:45
I don't think the mini is undersized.  I've got one sitting on my desk right now and it's comparable in size to recent minis.  It just looks undersized due to that weird scale creep that IWM had going for a few years.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 24 March 2018, 18:15:01
It seems like it suffers as well from a couple of common issues from minis from the 3058 era- a lack of any kind of dynamic posing abilities, and being very wide but flat in the body. The same can be seen on the Night Gyr, Emperor, and others (even the later Yu Huang).

Agreed on the art though. Resculpting a mini with lame art doesn't help much, unfortunately.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: marauder648 on 25 March 2018, 01:00:56
Yeah the Kingfisher along with many of the 3058 Mech's needs its art re-done.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 March 2018, 09:46:33
Yeah the Kingfisher along with many all of the 3058 Mech's needs its art re-done.

Fixed
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: marauder648 on 25 March 2018, 10:34:20
Fixed

Was trying to be polite :p
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: The Eagle on 26 March 2018, 09:16:09
Bushwacker, Lineholder, Spartan, Piranha, Night Gyr, T Hawk, Devastator, Pillager...and those are just the good looking ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: marauder648 on 26 March 2018, 10:47:03
I'd not even say those :s The Emperor's AC's are so wide bore that it looks like its had mech scale party poppers strapped to its arms instead of cannons.  It is really a case of re-do the lot.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 26 March 2018, 12:28:02
Fixed

Agreed!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 July 2019, 09:22:15
My intern just 3D Printed a great re sculpt of the C variant. Is it ok to post pics?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 31 July 2019, 09:24:56
My intern just 3D Printed a great re sculpt of the C variant. Is it ok to post pics?
You better ask mods or admins about that.
See the rule 10 thing:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=5.0
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 31 July 2019, 10:08:19
I'll make it easy.

Nope.

Nothing personal, but we exist at the whims of lawyers, and our rules reflect THEIR rules. I'm sure it's an awesome miniature, but it can't get posted here.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 July 2019, 10:28:10
I'll make it easy.

Nope.

Nothing personal, but we exist at the whims of lawyers, and our rules reflect THEIR rules. I'm sure it's an awesome miniature, but it can't get posted here.

No worries I thought it best to ask first
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 31 July 2019, 15:18:43
Not to get off topic but I love the fact that you have an intern that enjoys Battletech.

‘Hey Intern: Fridays your review day: bring your minis for a Trial of Position at this company. Selya!”
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Wrangler on 31 July 2019, 17:51:32
Not to get off topic but I love the fact that you have an intern that enjoys Battletech.

‘Hey Intern: Fridays your review day: bring your minis for a Trial of Position at this company. Selya!”
Lol.  You should have trialed it with Kingfishers. See who last man standing.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 July 2019, 20:10:42
Not to get off topic but I love the fact that you have an intern that enjoys Battletech.

‘Hey Intern: Fridays your review day: bring your minis for a Trial of Position at this company. Selya!”

Lol I noticed he had 3D printed Pokémon and I asked if he could help me out
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 August 2019, 10:15:09
Because it’s such a solid dump truck of a mech did the fisher see a spike in production during and right after the WOR?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 August 2019, 10:17:29
No.

As a matter of fact, I believe the Kingfisher's production line was destroyed.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: mbear on 09 August 2019, 06:39:30
No.

As a matter of fact, I believe the Kingfisher's production line was destroyed.

I think you're mistaken.
Found it. In the WoR Supplemental, pg 16, bottom of the left column, the Stone Lions sought out and won factories for the Kignfisher. It should be considered the core the Lions' assault OmniMechs going forward. At least that's what I was thinking win I did the 3085 RATs for WoR Supplemental. That said, the Lions took 'Mechs whenever and wherever they could, so initially they'd have a mix of most anything, even things on the Discarded Tools of War list.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 11 August 2019, 18:34:23
I'll make it easy.

Nope.

Nothing personal, but we exist at the whims of lawyers, and our rules reflect THEIR rules. I'm sure it's an awesome miniature, but it can't get posted here.

I gotta ask since this seems to contradict other things I've seen.

But when someone makes there own Warhammer from greenstuff & spare parts, & post pics in the minis section, or posts pics of their art drawings, how is that different than posting a 3D print out?

Advertising to sell them I could see, but if you are just posting your home crafted artistic creations, how is that one wrong?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Weirdo on 11 August 2019, 20:02:27
Simple: You haven't been specifically told not to post greenstuff Warhammers. You have been specifically told not to post printed minis.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 12 August 2019, 03:10:02
I gotta ask since this seems to contradict other things I've seen.

But when someone makes there own Warhammer from greenstuff & spare parts, & post pics in the minis section, or posts pics of their art drawings, how is that different than posting a 3D print out?

Advertising to sell them I could see, but if you are just posting your home crafted artistic creations, how is that one wrong?

IANAL. Take this with a grain of salt.

1) The battletech IP is split. Topps owns one half, Microsoft the other. As they are both huge companies, neither wants to poke the other.

2) Nobody unauthorized is allowed to make money off the IP. Since it can't (easily) be proven that no money changed hands in the production of that print, WHACK

3) MWO prints are directly derived from MWO (Read: Microsoft) IP. Given the process, it's much harder to say the same about green stuff sculpts.

4) A lawyer said so because lawyer reasons and the definitions of "fair use". Go to law school to figure them out.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 12 August 2019, 06:48:05
I think you're mistaken.
And as a follow on to this, the Lions would keep the factory in production as long as needed. If they hit a stockpile of resources that made other production a better choice they might switch. Or if they created their own design, etc.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Wrangler on 12 August 2019, 07:12:53
And as a follow on to this, the Lions would keep the factory in production as long as needed. If they hit a stockpile of resources that made other production a better choice they might switch. Or if they created their own design, etc.
Maybe a hybrid of this one called the LionKing. (runs)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 10:38:22
I think you're mistaken.

So I am.  Must have been thinking about new production being unavailable to the IS Clans or something.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: wantec on 12 August 2019, 14:54:12
Maybe a hybrid of this one called the LionKing. (runs)
It'd be a quad inspired by the Kingfisher
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 13 August 2019, 02:10:25
And as a follow on to this, the Lions would keep the factory in production as long as needed. If they hit a stockpile of resources that made other production a better choice they might switch. Or if they created their own design, etc.

As I always say in these situations, why build a 200 year old Mech when you can build a 1 year old Mech? Battletech abstracts a lot of things. Even if the old Mech is functionally the same in the game board there will be lots of little improvements made over the preceding years e.g. ease of maintenance, ergonomics, monomer material, that makes the new Mech better.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 13 August 2019, 02:19:21
As I always say in these situations, why build a 200 year old Mech when you can build a 1 year old Mech? Battletech abstracts a lot of things. Even if the old Mech is functionally the same in the game board there will be lots of little improvements made over the preceding years e.g. ease of maintenance, ergonomics, monomer material, that makes the new Mech better.

Wasn't that the case with the Stormcrow? One of the three or four most brutal mechs in tro 3050, and we later learn that it was being phased out as a relic with bad ergonomics.

Why not just give the basic frame a working over as with the vulture/vulture II is my question.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 August 2019, 08:00:08
That holds particularly true in the case of a big lunk like this thing, with almost everything on it being basic entry-level equipment. There's only so long one can patch machinery up before it just doesn't run right anymore (something that, as noted above, Battletech doesn't really care about- which is fine), so when a Kingfisher wears out I would think it would be pretty reasonable to just build a fresh one (or a fresh design!) than to keep fixing up something that is designed to get shot to pieces over and over, as this design in particular is prone to being.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 16 August 2019, 13:03:33
1) The battletech IP is split. Topps owns one half, Microsoft the other. As they are both huge companies, neither wants to poke the other.


If only it were so simple. VWE also has a portion of the IP.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Starfury on 18 August 2019, 21:43:55
My favorite Clan assault mech. I used it in a campaign back during the early 90s after it was released in Mechforce, and it did great against most Clan and IS units.  Of course that was back when only 3055, 2750, 3050 and 3026 the only TROs available, so...The

Kingfisher forms the anvil for many of my Ghost Bear or Blood Spirit Assault Stars, with faster or better armed units acting as the hammer for the rest of the Star.  They work well in conjunction with any Clan or IS assault/heavy Star/lance, except a fast cavalry unit, and that can always be fixed with a Supercharger.  I still have yet to use in the post Clan Invasion era, but it should hold up well even against monsters like the Hellstar or the Targe...
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Caedis Animus on 25 August 2019, 01:44:53
Why not just give the basic frame a working over as with the vulture/vulture II is my question.
Because that makes sense, and making sense is not the Clan way.

This goes for the Stormcrow and the Kingfisher.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Firesprocket on 25 August 2019, 16:31:54
Because that makes sense, and making sense is not the Clan way.

This goes for the Stormcrow and the Kingfisher.
What exactly needs to be changed on either design?  If isn't broken, why try and fix it? 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 26 August 2019, 03:07:23
It is hard to make a better Kingfisher. Any useful weight saving technology reduces the survivability that makes it unique. Alternatively improved armours cut too deeply into the limited pod space.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Caedis Animus on 26 August 2019, 05:09:36
What exactly needs to be changed on either design?  If isn't broken, why try and fix it?
The Stormcrow's bad ergonomics and the aging chassis of the Kingfisher.

It's less of a "This mech is awful! And needs a reboot to get better!" problem, and more of a "This mech is great, but would be way better if we updated it without sacrificing what it was known for." sort of issue.

Like, the Blood Asp is great and all, but... It's so far removed from what made the Kingfisher great, to the point of where it's not really the same role anymore, but instead an out-of-left-field change.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 26 August 2019, 20:08:00
It is hard to make a better Kingfisher. Any useful weight saving technology reduces the survivability that makes it unique. Alternatively improved armours cut too deeply into the limited pod space.

I mean you could make an interface cockpit variant... but agree with this. I’ve tried once or twice, not necessarily with mixed tech but still.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Wrangler on 26 August 2019, 20:18:40
I guess the carnage of the Wars of Reaving ended up giving a tired Kingfisher a second chance as lead OmniMech. 

It depends what going on in the Clan Home space i guess.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 August 2019, 20:24:29
Given that it's cheap and it's tough, it sure ought to be popular in the post-Reaving Clans.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Jellico on 27 August 2019, 06:44:07
The Kingfisher sits at a sweet spot for 4/6 assaults with std engines like the Cyclops and Banshee before it. There is a reason that it is hard to make better.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Empyrus on 27 August 2019, 08:20:05
The Kingfisher sits at a sweet spot for 4/6 assaults with std engines like the Cyclops and Banshee before it. There is a reason that it is hard to make better.
Pretty sure sweet spot would be 85 tons actually for 4/6 movers, and even more so if jump jets are considered. For XLFE 4/6, 95 tons is the sweet spot.

But 90 isn't bad, and there's always the extra armor and internal structure to consider.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: gyedid on 27 August 2019, 22:26:22
Pretty sure sweet spot would be 85 tons actually for 4/6 movers, and even more so if jump jets are considered. For XLFE 4/6, 95 tons is the sweet spot.

But 90 isn't bad, and there's always the extra armor and internal structure to consider.

Then there's also the small fact of the Kingfisher's lighter, more compact Clan tech.  ;D  That permits it to mount non-negligible firepower even with the limited pod space.  You endo/ferro a BNC-3E chassis, and fill the engine with all the heat sinks it can hold, and it leaves you with only 23.5 tons of "pod space" to play with.  That gets eaten up real fast with IS tech.

As to the first point, let's look at it this way for these 4/6 assaults with standard engines:
                             Tonnage          Engine rating          Engine tonnage          % of total mass in engine          "Pod space"*
Victor                         80                    320                        22.5                                28.13                                27
Battlemaster               85                    340                        27                                   31.76                                28
Cyclops                      90                    360                        33                                   36.67                                 31
Banshee                     95                    380                        41                                   43.16                                22.5                             

*all weapons and equipment (including extra heat sinks) removed, based on most common model

After 85 tons, there's quite a bit more of the total mass that's sunk in the engine.  The Victor and Cyclops manage to get their "pod space" by being thinly armoured for their size, while the Banshee is clearly well past the break-even point for engine mass and pays for it in firepower.  Only the Battlemaster manages a decent mix of speed/armour/firepower--but that firepower is bound up mostly in short-range guns.  So 85 tons does seem to be the tipping point for a 4/6 movement curve. 

The Kingfisher, with an engine the same mass as the Cyclops', but far stronger armour, has a Banshee-like amount of pod space--and that's WITH added heat sinks in the engine.  And it still handily outguns and outranges all of the above 'Mechs in their most common intro-tech configs, just because Clan tech makes that possible.

cheers,

Gabe
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Firesprocket on 27 August 2019, 23:19:53
Pretty sure sweet spot would be 85 tons actually for 4/6 movers, and even more so if jump jets are considered. For XLFE 4/6, 95 tons is the sweet spot.

But 90 isn't bad, and there's always the extra armor and internal structure to consider.
85 tons is what I went with when I reworked the design for the Dark Ages.  You can get a modest 29.5 tons of pod space after maxing out the armor with FF, ES, and capping out the number of heat sinks that the engine can hold.  That's a little low for Clan spec, but it isn't any slouch.  The Warhawk is only a hair about that at 32.5 tons.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Wrangler on 28 August 2019, 15:19:48
Kingfisher is tough to with it's standard fusion engine.

I do wonder if we'd ever see how things turned out for them.  Their conflicts would be self-contained, Clan Stone Lions would be using this thing as it's lead assault until something else came along.  their science caste was basically gutted so no new developments would be fast coming.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: truetanker on 29 August 2019, 18:06:39
Paired Kingfisher, an F and an X, and three single mechs, a Hellbringer E, a Stormcrow I and a Stone Rhino 5!

Now this is some good supporting units!

TT
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 20 August 2021, 21:05:21
The Kingfisher just got some new Recognition Guide art  8)

(https://i.ibb.co/wW1qwXX/kingfisher-rg.png)

It reminds me of a Savage Coyote with the jutting cockpit of the Blood Asp, which the Blood Asp's fluff indicates it was based on the Kingfisher.  The Kingfisher's fluff says itself was based on Clan Wolverine's Pulverizer, but I'm not seeing that  ???. 

Regardless, this new rendition looks absolutely awesome!  I'm happy to have one of these machines in one of my Smoke Jaguar heavy battle stars :)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 August 2021, 01:09:05
The Kingfisher's fluff says itself was based on Clan Wolverine's Pulverizer, but I'm not seeing that  ???. 

The old model did,  this new one is a different breed w/ all the nice bumpy armor plates & such.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 August 2021, 02:19:23
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/c/c1/Pulverizer_JSTBD.png/800px-38w0p3sj0mwfb1win3xfwbvm4qa09z1.png?timestamp=20210714002111)

(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/b/bf/Kingfisher.jpg/581px-my6u6wm1vjrbkrhn8h5j2fco0g683dc.jpg?timestamp=20210118224312)

Yeah, they look pretty similar.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Starfury on 21 August 2021, 05:46:24
And now you can run both together since the Ravens started building Clan equipped Pulverizers again in 3149.  The Outworlds Alliance will be scary to deal with....
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Intermittent_Coherence on 21 August 2021, 16:04:23
The old model did,  this new one is a different breed w/ all the nice bumpy armor plates & such.
If you can imagine a ridge of armor over the cockpit, it might resemble the Pulverizer more.
The forward jutting center torso is closer now than the 31st century art.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 21 August 2021, 17:14:20
So what do people think of the couple new variants in RecGuide 18?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 August 2021, 17:35:11
Most of them are far more geared toward close-range combat than older variant, and since the mech lacks mobility options aside from the G's Supercharger that makes me nervous.  Would hate to face any of them on maps that limit LOS options, though.  The X is a fun one, I used that after it was first revealed in RS: 3058 Upgrade unabridged. 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 21 August 2021, 18:32:04
I think the X will be my go to for most uses once it comes into play.

I think the T is probably the most balanced of the newest configurations, but I’d just as soon use a prime. I don’t like the one that’s just a Gauss and two iHLL. While it’s a ton of damage, it feels light
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 August 2021, 18:53:56
I don’t like the one that’s just a Gauss and two iHLL. While it’s a ton of damage, it feels light

I was thinking I liked that one.    So simple, so plain, 3 headcappers & the heatsinks to fire all day.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 August 2021, 21:40:48
I dislike it only because it puts all its weaponry in the arms, with nothing in the center torso.  Breaks the cardinal rule of Kingfishers.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 August 2021, 22:08:22
Sort of . . . there are only a few that do alright with the CT weapon.  It would make a great BA transport.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 August 2021, 22:58:58
Eh, Kingfisher's on the slow side for taxi duty.  The lack of a CT weapon means it loses its zombie status- it's only got three guns, they're all in the arms, and they all explode if critted.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 22 August 2021, 04:04:29
I'm seriously ambivalent about the T. On the one hand, it's hard to go wrong with a heat neutral headchopper & four clan mediums, and 22 points of streak damage on top of that.

On the other, it's neither as long ranged or accurate as the Prime, and loses a lot if the big gun goes up. I've done matches in megamek, and they can go either way.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 22 August 2021, 04:21:42
I'm seriously ambivalent about the T. On the one hand, it's hard to go wrong with a heat neutral headchopper and four clan mediums, and 22 points of streak damage on top of that.

On the other, it's neither as long ranged or accurate as the Prime, and loses a lot if the big gun goes up. I've done matches in megamek, and they can go either way.


If I knew it was a city fight I’d take it. But then you could take the G and only loose minimal damage at range, and save ~300BV.
The heavy small (improved or otherwise) makes me so sad, I’d probably swap it for a Light TAG and say “suck it spheroid” as I guide arrows into their knees.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 22 August 2021, 13:06:48
TAGs are way too rare for realistic conditions, but arrows are rare in real games.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Lanceman on 22 August 2021, 18:16:06
I remember rolling up a Nova Cat Cluster (back in my idle youth when I spent way too much time just making homebrew units that would never see the game board) using the tables in the back of the BMR Revised and it ending up consisting of lots and lots of Kingfishers.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 23 August 2021, 17:53:23
I haven’t used a Kingfisher yet…. Mine are unassembled. However I WILL be using them as soon as I do, especially the I variant. I’m not using them for battle taxis (primarily because I’m a Ghost Bear with a Star each of Vipers and Fire Moths) but as zombies similar to the way I use IS Awesomes: sit back, draw some fire, and slap down that firing button. Some may have to get closer than others.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 24 August 2021, 16:30:12
I haven’t used a Kingfisher yet…. Mine are unassembled. However I WILL be using them as soon as I do, especially the I variant. I’m not using them for battle taxis (primarily because I’m a Ghost Bear with a Star each of Vipers and Fire Moths) but as zombies similar to the way I use IS Awesomes: sit back, draw some fire, and slap down that firing button. Some may have to get closer than others.

When I first saw the KF years ago I was not impressed w/ the stats, I thought "Clan Cyclops" massive SFE-360, UGH.

But over the years I've used & faced several models & I've never been disappointed in any way  (Other than finding it hard to KILL one).

Prime, C, D, E...............  It hasn't mattered they all did their jobs & soaked tons of fire while returning it.

For thinking badly of it originally, I find these days its a debate between it & the D-Wolf as to which is my favorite of the Clan Assault Omni's.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 25 August 2021, 13:18:08
22 points of streak damage on top of that.


11 SRM tubes?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 25 August 2021, 14:00:24
11 SRM tubes?

The T has a Streak LRM-10.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 August 2021, 20:20:11
The Kingfisher just got some new Recognition Guide art  8)

(https://i.ibb.co/wW1qwXX/kingfisher-rg.png)

It reminds me of a Savage Coyote with the jutting cockpit of the Blood Asp, which the Blood Asp's fluff indicates it was based on the Kingfisher.  The Kingfisher's fluff says itself was based on Clan Wolverine's Pulverizer, but I'm not seeing that  ???. 

Regardless, this new rendition looks absolutely awesome!  I'm happy to have one of these machines in one of my Smoke Jaguar heavy battle stars :)

Awww yeah! I assume this will be the basis for a new metal and or plastic mini?
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 August 2021, 20:31:28
Was the Kingfisher in the KS?  I thought it got voted off.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 August 2021, 21:34:11
It is in the kickstarter.  It's part of the Heavy Striker Star, along with the Turkina, Crossbow, Cauldron Born, and Nobori-nin.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 August 2021, 02:06:35
I really should have picked up one of those stars.  I’m not big on the Crossbow, but the other four are all great designs that it’s hard to have too many of.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2021, 09:12:21
Hmm, mine must have been hard to see in the box as I do not remember it last night.  Going to have to look through the new ones.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 26 August 2021, 11:13:11
It is in the kickstarter.  It's part of the Heavy Striker Star, along with the Turkina, Crossbow, Cauldron Born, and Nobori-nin.

This was a big must have choice for me, because I only own 1 copy of 2 of these & 0 of the other 3.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 26 August 2021, 13:26:21
I really should have picked up one of those stars.  I’m not big on the Crossbow, but the other four are all great designs that it’s hard to have too many of.

This is one of the only clan stars I doubled up on. Two of my favorites, an kingfisher to go to the bears (both actually) and then the Turkina and Crossbow
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 26 August 2021, 17:20:34
Part of the Kickstarters new Clan Heavy Battle Star
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 29 August 2021, 17:56:39
It is in the kickstarter.  It's part of the Heavy Striker Star, along with the Turkina, Crossbow, Cauldron Born, and Nobori-nin.

That is a mean line up!!!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 August 2021, 18:00:35
Four nasty mechs and a Crossbow.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 August 2021, 07:03:04
More like three good 'Mechs and a Cauldron Born and Crossbow.   ;)
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 31 August 2021, 09:25:30
The Cauldron-Born isn't bad, it just has some crappy configurations.  I'd take one over a Hellbringer, Mad Dog, or really any other 60 or 65 ton omni from the Invasion Era.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 August 2021, 10:34:36
If I had to pick one of those three, I'd say the Vulture has the best configurations.

And yes, the Cauldron Born is a better chassis than than the Loki (though that's not saying much). It's just stuck with a bunch of crap configurations.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 31 August 2021, 12:36:35
Ebon Jaguar just got a few decent configs in the RecGuide. Before that the only one that passed my sniff test was the E. It's a B-list frame that initially got d-list configs.

Crossbow is a C-list frame with C to B-list configs. It wanted to be a lighter Kingfisher but failed. Crossbow W almost got there, but not quite.

Kingfisher is a B-list frame with A-list configurations. It's always had a niche in the Can arsenals it has filled well for competitive BV. The RecGuide versions continued the trend. I'm a bit leery about the amount of explodium in the torsos of the G, however.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 August 2021, 13:11:42
Kingfisher is a B-list frame with A-list configurations. It's always had a niche in the Can arsenals it has filled well for competitive BV.

That sums it up pretty well. And with it's Kickstarter facelift, it now looks good too.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 31 August 2021, 13:21:27
Ebon Jaguar just got a few decent configs in the RecGuide. Before that the only one that passed my sniff test was the E. It's a B-list frame that initially got d-list configs.
Wait, WHAT?
How is an XL, Endo, FF design a B-List Frame?
Its a T-Wolf at 10 tons lighter or a Storm Crow at 10 tons heavier.
As for Pods, I won't defend those other than to say the 'A' is my default, if I'm running an Ebon Jag, its going to be the A model.
You'll accept all my ERLL Sniping & be happy about it, or, you'll deal w/ my Ultra-20 when you close in.


Quote
Crossbow is a C-list frame with C to B-list configs. It wanted to be a lighter Kingfisher but failed. Crossbow W almost got there, but not quite.
Logistically, its nice to have an Omni that requires ZERO advanced construction techniques, but in turn, the pod space fails.
That said the USE of the Pod Space is pretty good.
Clan LRMs, Clan Streaks,  Clan LRMs/Streaks/MPLs,  what is there to complain about?
Short of mounting a pair of Clan LPL cheese you can't get much more efficient than the above choices.


Quote
Kingfisher is a B-list frame with A-list configurations. It's always had a niche in the Can arsenals it has filled well for competitive BV.
I can't disagree there, the huge engine tonnage limits the # of guns which in turn limits the amount of BV it can be.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 August 2021, 14:28:22
Crossbow would have been better at 4/6, then you had more space for the pods.

IIRC, the Cauldron Born has armor placement concerns.

And the best Clan 65 tonner before the Dark Ages is the Arcas, period.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 31 August 2021, 14:40:36
Wait, WHAT?
Armor. Ebon Jag fails to take a double PPC hit on any limb. A ton [edit - half ton] more armor or placement a bit different and it would be a-list

Quote
{crossbow}That said the USE of the Pod Space is pretty good.
My problem is, again, armor. It fails the double tap test on its side torsos, which are typically wide caverns ready to pass crits into the center. Weapons are good, but the kill-me spot is almost as bad or worse than a clan XL in all but a couple configs.

Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 31 August 2021, 16:01:50
And the best Clan 65 tonner before the Dark Ages is the Arcas, period.

No argument, but it's not an omnimech.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 August 2021, 16:06:22
When you are the best, do you really need to be Omni?  Speed, mobility, armor, ranged firepower, accurate firepower, and crit-seeking . . .
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 August 2021, 16:31:35
That sums it up pretty well. And with it's Kickstarter facelift, it now looks good too.

I an excited for the new mini! It looks like a slab metal
That will take a beating a d dish one out!
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 31 August 2021, 16:52:07
Crossbow would have been better at 4/6, then you had more space for the pods.
No disagreement there.
That would have been a solid way to build an otherwise "introtech" Omni.



Armor. Ebon Jag fails to take a double PPC hit on any limb. A ton more armor or placement a bit different and it would be a-list
My problem is, again, armor. It fails the double tap test on its side torsos, which are typically wide caverns ready to pass crits into the center. Weapons are good, but the kill-me spot is almost as bad or worse than a clan XL in all but a couple configs.
I can't slight a mech for being 17/20 on the Arms though I will give you the legs should be a bit more at 19/30.
Shaving just a point from Side Torsos-22 to Legs would have fixed that issue.

For the Crossbow, this must be a serious allocation issue because I'm pretty sure its close to max.  Crossbow has 12 tons of armor? 
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Greatclub on 31 August 2021, 17:36:37
12 tons of armor. Legs have 26, side torso have 18/9.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 September 2021, 00:52:35
12 tons of armor. Legs have 26, side torso have 18/9.

Ideally that would be 25 + 20/8 for nice pretty matching common damage #s.
But its not as bad as I thought it might be.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Scotty on 01 September 2021, 00:55:03
The Ebon Jaguar F is a supreme being and its not-maxed armor is fine especially since its competition is the Hellbringer that it is an inarguable upgrade from.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 September 2021, 12:19:35
The Ebon Jaguar F is a supreme being and its not-maxed armor is fine especially since its competition is the Hellbringer that it is an inarguable upgrade from.
I have not heard of it, but, after just checking Sarna, yeah, I can't disagree, that is a good one too.
I'd probably switch to that from the A in a Post-Invasion timeline where ATMs are available.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 01 September 2021, 20:34:18
I have not heard of it, but, after just checking Sarna, yeah, I can't disagree, that is a good one too.
I'd probably switch to that from the A in a Post-Invasion timeline where ATMs are available.

It’s a “new” Rec guide one.
Title: Re: MotW: Kingfisher
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 05 September 2021, 17:17:45
So I played the ‘I’ variant in a 3v3 last night on the new Kozice Valley map. Performed pretty well: same zombie self and ram as cold as a freezer (until it took two plasma shots in one turn). Game was short so I didn’t get a chance to test its ammo endurance, but took enough of a Dire Wolfs fire and nothing went internal after two volleys so I’m happy with it.