BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: Terrace on 13 June 2017, 22:10:05
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I'm really confused on why this isn't more of a thing as time goes on, especially post-Jihad with the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes going around selling Clantech to anyone who can pay. I mean, if I have an Inner Sphere OmniMech and I have a choice between buying a mediocre Clantech BattleMech or Clantech Omnipods, I'm going for the Omnipods, because they can be used on a lot of different chassis, and you can get a lot of them (which means handy replacements if any of them break!) for less than the cost of even a single BattleMech.
So why don't we have more official Clantech configurations for those things? Are the developers just trying to avoid flooding the table with official configurations?
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I think it is because we can just modify a IS mech with clantech pods.
And traditionally they were called R config. or Bulldog mods.
But I do agree, there should be a R mod for every IS Omni out there. ( With sucky results, and not just " puts a cLPL on everything!" More bulky weapons with sensible placements. )
TT
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I think it is because we can just modify a IS mech with clantech pods.
And traditionally they were called R config. or Bulldog mods.
But I do agree, there should be a R mod for every IS Omni out there. ( With sucky results, and not just " puts a cLPL on everything!" More bulky weapons with sensible placements. )
TT
I agree that every IS Omni should have an R configuration. I'm just wondering why there aren't more configurations for them that sport Clantech, perhaps filling a different tactical niche. I mean, if you're a rich mercenary group with a lot of OmniMechs who can get into contact with the nearest Sea Fox Khanate, why shouldn't you be stuffing every single one of them with Clantech weapons? And if a particular chassis' R config doesn't fit the fighting style and role of the pilot, why should you be locked in on that configuration? Got an Avatar whose pilot is awesome at using the B configuration? Buy missile pods that play to his strengths!
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it is possible the Foxes aren't selling individual weapons like that though. they sell full mechs, and certainly would sell components to those who have said mechs, but they may avoid selling individual weapons to people.
they make plenty off the sale of full mechs, bulk sales for production purposes, and spare parts for those who bought their gear in the past. selling individual lasers or missile launchers to anyone who happens to have an Omnimech is probably too small a market to matter, and wouldn't net them much profit.
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They need an appropriate product to put the configuration in. Apparently the record sheet books didn't sell enough to have a second coming of Record Sheets Updates. Luckily some groups allow folks to outfit their Omnis how they seem fit as long as they can get the parts. And keep a supply line open to the Sea Foxes for more ammo....
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Hmm. Think the Sea Foxes would just give you a wink and a nudge if you bought a few of their "Available to all" OmniMechs, then bought a whole pile of Clantech Omnipods for "custom configurations", even if both you and they are perfectly aware that those pods will never be used on a Clantech machine?
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I think it's widely understood that this is something that takes place, and has been taking place on standard mechs ever since the invasion (see Archer Christofori's Penetrator, the Avanti's Angels, every merc unit that has ever hired Battle Magic, and so on) but not in a standardized way. So sure, probably a third of the Avatars out there have a Clan tech weapon mounted, but its not the same one on any of them.
Part, to my mind, of having a set configuration is that it is standardized. All the quartermasters know it, all units with the mech stock the pods (if they can and want) and it's been tested and approved and so on. The only military until the post Republic with that sort of capability was the DCMS right after Bulldog, which absolutely had several standard Clan configurations (I always assumed R was for "Dragon Roars"). The FedCom didn't then have that many omnis, nor any other military, and most of them probably used most of their salvage either to keep their few Clan made mechs in service, or to refit conventional mechs.
Now, in the Dark Age I would expect to see more standard Clan or mixed tech configurations. But, I guess that either anyone who can afford a Clan weapons suite can afford the whole Clan mech, or else no one really wanted to muddy the waters.
But, in any era, I'd expect custom configurations to be as common as standard ones, and Clan weapons to be as common or more on them than on standard mechs (we're explicitly told that many IS omnis are designed to accept Clan pods right off the shelf). But since no two are the same, we don't get a record sheet.
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it is possible the Foxes aren't selling individual weapons like that though. they sell full mechs, and certainly would sell components to those who have said mechs, but they may avoid selling individual weapons to people.
they make plenty off the sale of full mechs, bulk sales for production purposes, and spare parts for those who bought their gear in the past. selling individual lasers or missile launchers to anyone who happens to have an Omnimech is probably too small a market to matter, and wouldn't net them much profit.
I can't see the Foxy Fish turning down a deal they can make money on, even if it's small scale. In fact, you can usually make more profit in deals where "economy of scale" is not applicable. "You only want 85 tons of clantech weaponry? I'm sure we can make that happen, but you won't qualify for our bulk discount, in fact we apply a small-order surcharge to all orders under 200 tons of equipment that don't include at least one complete battlemech, combat vehicle, or ASF..."
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They need an appropriate product to put the configuration in. Apparently the record sheet books didn't sell enough to have a second coming of Record Sheets Updates. Luckily some groups allow folks to outfit their Omnis how they seem fit as long as they can get the parts. And keep a supply line open to the Sea Foxes for more ammo....
Mostly new product is used to show off new toys. So these days that means advanced or experimental IS tech rather than 30 year old Clan tech.
Think for a minute that reintroducing a full set of Rs would double the number of IS Omni variants. Do we really want that?
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Do we really want that?
Just gonna point out you just asked the forums if they want more 'mechs.
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I'll bet Randall would say yes... and Xtol would most likely groan under the sheer listings of the " R " variants inbound. And then Worktroll would snort with glee tinking of ow to use them as Jellico has to write these into fiction. Oh and I wonder what nckestrel would use if he had to run these in an official Alpha Strike... ;)
I jest of course... or am I? O:-)
TT
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If you look at the Unit listings in FMU you see it happening- X% of the regiment was Omnis, Z% were Clan . . . which we were told could mean a IS Omni could have a single Clan ER Small Laser with the rest of the equipment being stock IS gear. It was done keeping that flexible for different type of players. By 3100s Clan producers are not the only source of Clan spec weapons- the FS is building Black Knights that are using Clan spec ER Lasers.
With that said . . . IMO, the two biggest places you might see a systemic replacement would be Clan LRMs and ERPPCs for the IS ones. Clan LRMs to drop the weight and min ranges, ERPPCs to bring the damage up to 15 rather than 10.
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So, from what I'm understanding here, there's likely all sorts of configurations sporting Clantech, it's just on either such a limited basis (in the sense of a single weapon), or the configuration is entirely Clantech, but is only used by this one unit. Either way, it's too rare on the battlefield to justify devoting a record sheet to these configurations.
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I'm really confused on why this isn't more of a thing as time goes on, especially post-Jihad with the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes going around selling Clantech to anyone who can pay.
it is possible the Foxes aren't selling individual weapons like that though. they sell full mechs, and certainly would sell components to those who have said mechs, but they may avoid selling individual weapons to people. They make plenty off the sale of full mechs, bulk sales for production purposes, and spare parts for those who bought their gear in the past. selling individual lasers or missile launchers to anyone who happens to have an Omnimech is probably too small a market to matter, and wouldn't net them much profit.
I can't see the Foxy Fish turning down a deal they can make money on, even if it's small scale. In fact, you can usually make more profit in deals where "economy of scale" is not applicable. "You only want 85 tons of clantech weaponry? I'm sure we can make that happen, but you won't qualify for our bulk discount, in fact we apply a small-order surcharge to all orders under 200 tons of equipment that don't include at least one complete battlemech, combat vehicle, or ASF..."
It is likely a combination of all of these factors. The Shark/Foxes are going to have more interest in an income that is steady and continuous. The sale of a small amount of units and/or a large amount of pods, of different variation, is going to be less profitable. Thus, small amounts of material are going to be sold at a higher mark-up. They would have a larger interest in selling a full series of mechs and the logistical support to keep a the profits flowing. Sell a Mad Cat Mk IV with support or sell pods to another party to update their old Black Hawk KUs? Choice is pretty simple when trying to make a larger profit. There is also the interest of the individual Khanates to consider and who can supply what you want and how fast you want it.
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So, from what I'm understanding here, there's likely all sorts of configurations sporting Clantech, it's just on either such a limited basis (in the sense of a single weapon), or the configuration is entirely Clantech, but is only used by this one unit. Either way, it's too rare on the battlefield to justify devoting a record sheet to these configurations.
Considering the universe is full of frakenmechs, the simple answer is yes.
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I would consider the omni itself an inkjet printer compared to the weapons pod being like the ink cartridge. The chassis is the loss leader with the pods making up the cost over time.
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I would consider the omni itself an inkjet printer compared to the weapons pod being like the ink cartridge. The chassis is the loss leader with the pods making up the cost over time.
Especially considering how they're used in combat. Folks tend to look negatively on loosing a whole 'Mech, but an arm, a weapon, or even a side torso in some circumstances is ok.
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I think it's widely understood that this is something that takes place, and has been taking place on standard mechs ever since the invasion (see Archer Christofori's Penetrator, the Avanti's Angels, every merc unit that has ever hired Battle Magic, and so on) but not in a standardized way. So sure, probably a third of the Avatars out there have a Clan tech weapon mounted, but its not the same one on any of them.
Part, to my mind, of having a set configuration is that it is standardized. All the quartermasters know it, all units with the mech stock the pods (if they can and want) and it's been tested and approved and so on. The only military until the post Republic with that sort of capability was the DCMS right after Bulldog, which absolutely had several standard Clan configurations (I always assumed R was for "Dragon Roars"). The FedCom didn't then have that many omnis, nor any other military, and most of them probably used most of their salvage either to keep their few Clan made mechs in service, or to refit conventional mechs.
Now, in the Dark Age I would expect to see more standard Clan or mixed tech configurations. But, I guess that either anyone who can afford a Clan weapons suite can afford the whole Clan mech, or else no one really wanted to muddy the waters.
But, in any era, I'd expect custom configurations to be as common as standard ones, and Clan weapons to be as common or more on them than on standard mechs (we're explicitly told that many IS omnis are designed to accept Clan pods right off the shelf). But since no two are the same, we don't get a record sheet.
I think your vastly overestimating the # of custom omnis & the # of clan spec variants in the IS, but, I do agree that Omni configurations are standardized for supply/maintenance.
I'd like most IS omni's to have 1-2 variants with clan tech on them.
Its a shame we didn't get more when 3058/60/67 were given the Revised/Upgraded treatment.
Think for a minute that reintroducing a full set of Rs would double the number of IS Omni variants. Do we really want that?
I think what he was asking is why didn't the other IS Omnis get an "R-Bulldog" type variant? Not, why don't we have a clan spec version of every IS configuration.
The 3058 Omnis have the R versions & the Celestials have their standard "clan spec" versions too.
But the 2nd Gen Omni's produced by the other houses never got an "R" version.
Arctic Fox, Men Shen, Perseus, Templar, & Hauptmann could all benefit from having a "R" version for those units that get a hold of a clan tech weapons depot.
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Arctic Fox should technically have a L3 version like the Night Gyr did for Laser HS, since its a mixed tech design using Clan EndoSteel.
But yeah, especially for 3145 there should be Clan tech equipped variants of what is around . . . did we even get a Clan weapon equipped Templar III? I do not recall one, and it is produced by the same faction building their own 'Clan' ER Lasers.
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Arctic Fox should technically have a L3 version like the Night Gyr did for Laser HS, since its a mixed tech design using Clan EndoSteel.
But yeah, especially for 3145 there should be Clan tech equipped variants of what is around . . . did we even get a Clan weapon equipped Templar III? I do not recall one, and it is produced by the same faction building their own 'Clan' ER Lasers.
No it isn't:
Though the Kells have access to Clan materials, the Arctic Fox is built with only Inner Sphere technology, for logistical as well as strategic reasons.
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I can't see the Foxy Fish turning down a deal they can make money on, even if it's small scale. In fact, you can usually make more profit in deals where "economy of scale" is not applicable. "You only want 85 tons of clantech weaponry? I'm sure we can make that happen, but you won't qualify for our bulk discount, in fact we apply a small-order surcharge to all orders under 200 tons of equipment that don't include at least one complete battlemech, combat vehicle, or ASF..."
I often feel like people use Clan Sea Fox as an excuse to get any items they like. Which is fine for their games...
And I'm not saying Clan Sea Fox wouldn't sale clan weapons Ala carte.
But they seem to me to be primarily strategists as a clan.
The warrior traders do get to keep some things as Isorla. But they're still essentially socialists and so any deals they make are to strengthen the clan.
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Except Sha Clarke.
Anyways. If you can get around to reading Hunters of the Deep and To Ride the Chimera they are fun books...
And that Malvina Hazen book.
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The only station we are told of above Arc Royal is a Clan facility. The Wolves trade Endosteel for Comm & Targeting systems produced by the Hounds (Arctic Wolf or Pack Hunter fluff). So . . .
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We're explicitly told the AF1 is built entirely from IS tech. Perhaps the clan factory can build IS-spec parts.
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Or its that its built using IS engines & DHS
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That's not what the TRO says though. It's explicit that the Kells didn't use any clantech in the Arctic Fox.
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That's not what the TRO says though. It's explicit that the Kells didn't use any clantech in the Arctic Fox.
That can't be correct, the seats are all upholstered in rich Kirinthian leather....
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But, in any era, I'd expect custom configurations to be as common as standard ones, and Clan weapons to be as common or more on them than on standard mechs (we're explicitly told that many IS omnis are designed to accept Clan pods right off the shelf). But since no two are the same, we don't get a record sheet.
I was going to post something but you took the words right out of my mouth O0. In the 3145 era there is quite a bit of Clantech floating around, at least for elite formations, but I imagine even in this era most Clan-tech fitted IS Omni's are going to custom jobs so you have a Clan ER PPC there, a Clan LRM launcher there, and everything in-between.
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The only station we are told of above Arc Royal is a Clan facility. The Wolves trade Endosteel for Comm & Targeting systems produced by the Hounds (Arctic Wolf or Pack Hunter fluff). So . . .
It looks like your assuming too much Colt.
They trade IS grade ES, not Clan Spec
The MechWorks also benefited from the residence of Clan Wolf-in-Exile on Arc-Royal. Trade arrangements between the planet's Inner Sphere and Clan facilities ensured the supply of components that the other lacked. Most notably, Arc-Royal MechWorks receives Inner Sphere-grade Endo Steel from the Wolves-in-Exile mobile orbital factories.[2]
The above quote comes from Arc Royal Mechworks Profile in Handbook: House Steiner, according to the Sarna footnote anyway.
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for a clan facility, IS grade endo is probably classified as "factory seconds" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_second)
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Just gonna point out you just asked the forums if they want more 'mechs.
;D Why would we want more???
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Hmm. Think the Sea Foxes would just give you a wink and a nudge if you bought a few of their "Available to all" OmniMechs, then bought a whole pile of Clantech Omnipods for "custom configurations", even if both you and they are perfectly aware that those pods will never be used on a Clantech machine?
I doubt they'd even wink or nudge as long as the payment was made.