Author Topic: Abandoned and dead-end tech  (Read 29555 times)

martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #30 on: 25 October 2014, 09:51:46 »
What about their availability?
Honestly? The Sea Foxes sell (almost) everything to everyone. Either they manufacture it on their own or they buy it from an IS Clan and resell it.

Just look at the Warhammer IIC 4: it's available to Fedrats, Lyrans, Cappies, Dracs, Republic, to IS Clans unless they produce something comparable on their own - to all "except" the new FWL.

Or the Hellstar: Again, available to everyone "except" the FWL.

DarkSpade

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #31 on: 25 October 2014, 10:14:02 »
Honestly? The Sea Foxes sell (almost) everything to everyone. Either they manufacture it on their own or they buy it from an IS Clan and resell it.

Just look at the Warhammer IIC 4: it's available to Fedrats, Lyrans, Cappies, Dracs, Republic, to IS Clans unless they produce something comparable on their own - to all "except" the new FWL.

Or the Hellstar: Again, available to everyone "except" the FWL.

But logistically, wouldn't it be easier to get something produced locally than to contact the Sea Foxes for it?  Especially with 80% or so of the HPG network down.  And then there's needed techs to repair and maintain the equipment.  Techs that know clan equipment probably demand higher salaries or if you want the techs you already have to learn it, you have to pay for that training.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #32 on: 25 October 2014, 10:20:37 »
Also, there's a huge difference between 'available' and 'available in vast quantities'.

The IS powers may be able to buy Clantech from the Foxes and build their own, but I seriously doubt they can buy/build enough to phase out their lower-tech equivalents completely.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #33 on: 25 October 2014, 10:28:45 »
Also, there's a huge difference between 'available' and 'available in vast quantities'.

The IS powers may be able to buy Clantech from the Foxes and build their own, but I seriously doubt they can buy/build enough to phase out their lower-tech equivalents completely.

Agreed.  I don't recall "Lannister" being one of the IS Great Powers.   ;D
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martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #34 on: 25 October 2014, 11:16:47 »
But logistically, wouldn't it be easier to get something produced locally than to contact the Sea Foxes for it?  Especially with 80% or so of the HPG network down.  And then there's needed techs to repair and maintain the equipment.  Techs that know clan equipment probably demand higher salaries or if you want the techs you already have to learn it, you have to pay for that training.
In the Dark Age the ClanTech is not so rare as it used to be. Look at it:
  • Lyran Commonwealth - their own pet Clan Wolf (in-Exile)
  • Draconis Combine - their own late pet Clan Nova Cat and its leftover factories; Shigunga LRMs; Cizin factories specifically mentioned as being dismantled, moved and re-established by the DC
  • Federated Suns - they produce Clan-grade weapons - Exostar
  • Capellan Confederation - ... (XNT-7O Xanthos is armed with Clan-grade weapons and the Capellans have revived this 'Mech for the modern era so possibly ...)
  • Republic - explicitly mentioned that Stone paid the Clanners to upgrade RotS factories; see the Doloire
  • Free Worlds League - ... (not sure with the Juliano - the text stresses that it's supposed to be "culmination of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth's longstanding attempt to develop a new native Assault 'Mech", so I am not sure if those Clan Streak SRMs are from CSF or MSC factories
  • IS private manufacturers - see the Jackalope

And these are just examples I can name off the top of my head.

Legatus

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #35 on: 25 October 2014, 13:20:14 »
Mixed-Tech Mechs are definitely the way to go in 3145.  And they make for so many overwhelmingly possible combos that they are one of the reasons I quit the game.  To each their own.

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #36 on: 25 October 2014, 13:50:34 »
You quit over having more options?

martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #37 on: 25 October 2014, 13:57:52 »
Some psychologists say that the abundance of choice may lead to depression sometimes, as people may be unable to decide.   ;)

glitterboy2098

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #38 on: 25 October 2014, 14:42:50 »
In the Dark Age the ClanTech is not so rare as it used to be. Look at it:
  • Lyran Commonwealth - their own pet Clan Wolf (in-Exile)
  • Draconis Combine - their own late pet Clan Nova Cat and its leftover factories; Shigunga LRMs; Cizin factories specifically mentioned as being dismantled, moved and re-established by the DC
  • Federated Suns - they produce Clan-grade weapons - Exostar
  • Capellan Confederation - ... (XNT-7O Xanthos is armed with Clan-grade weapons and the Capellans have revived this 'Mech for the modern era so possibly ...)
  • Republic - explicitly mentioned that Stone paid the Clanners to upgrade RotS factories; see the Doloire
  • Free Worlds League - ... (not sure with the Juliano - the text stresses that it's supposed to be "culmination of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth's longstanding attempt to develop a new native Assault 'Mech", so I am not sure if those Clan Streak SRMs are from CSF or MSC factories
  • IS private manufacturers - see the Jackalope

And these are just examples I can name off the top of my head.

all more or less single source for each group.. sure they exist, but they don't make everything.. the fedcom has lasers, the combine has access to a limited spectrum of gear, pet clans aren't going to be acting as supply depots at the expense of their own production, etc. only the republic can boast a wide spectrum of clan gear.. and those are cut off inside the fortress. all together the rest of the IS could do pure clantech if they combined efforts.. but with the star league dead again and everyone fighting each other, that's not gonna happen.

and even within a faction, your not guaranteed access to a particular set of tech. corporate rivalries, supply contracts, design team skills, and supply chain shipping volume will all factor in to it. sure maybe you could get clan grade pulse lasers in theory, but if you can't get enough of them to supply Gunsmith production, well you'd have to look for the next best thing.

DarkSpade

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #39 on: 25 October 2014, 15:00:27 »
Mixed-Tech Mechs are definitely the way to go in 3145.  And they make for so many overwhelmingly possible combos that they are one of the reasons I quit the game.  To each their own.

Statements like this always confuse the hell out of me.  CBT isn't really built around tournaments.  Sure they happen, but it's not exactly the default play style like some other games I've run into.  So, if you don't like playing munchkins, just stick to certain eras or just play TRO pure.  Sure there's mixtech TRO units, but I don't remember ever seeing one that was hyper optimized.

Only way I could see that being a problem is if everyone in your playgroup only ever wanted to play munchkin wars. Even in that case, it's not the game's fault.
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Shatara

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #40 on: 25 October 2014, 15:10:24 »
You quit over having more options?
Having spent a few years designing a variety of mixed tech abominations, I actually found Clan tech removes choices at least as often as it adds them.

For example: Let's say you have two tons left on a design. You want to add some short-range lasers. In that space you can choose the MPL, MXPL, or a pair of standard MLs. Each of these choices is valid, and has it's own advantage: The MPL runs coolest, the X-pulse has high accuracy, and the MLs have the most raw damage and redundancy. Now add the Clan MPL to that. You've got heat equal to the IS MPL, more range than the MXPL, and damage approaching the dual ML. You have to manufacture a reason not to use the Clan weapon.

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #41 on: 25 October 2014, 16:14:01 »
Some psychologists say that the abundance of choice may lead to depression sometimes, as people may be unable to decide.   ;)

Older than you think... I hear there´s an ancient Greek fable about a donkey that starves because it can´t decide between two equal piles of food.
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Legatus

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #42 on: 25 October 2014, 16:37:17 »
You quit over having more options?
Among other reasons, essentially yes.  You see more options; I see more rules/weapons that I now have to learn on top of everything else.  When I started, the rule book was very thin, almost a leaflet.  Then came the Clans & Star League tech.  No problem; we generated a house rule so that you had to have one or the other, but not both - unless you wanted, say, a single ER large laser on your Phoenix Hawk, or a Streak 6 on your Wolverine.  Thus, Clan Tech was available to the players as a reward, but not so much as to remove the focus on the new IS designs.  So - it ended up feeling like homework to study, not a game.  Thus, one more reason in an increasingly long list to quit playing (and not even close to the main ones).

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #43 on: 25 October 2014, 16:48:22 »
Dude, the game crossed that bridge in 1989.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #44 on: 25 October 2014, 17:16:46 »
Older than you think... I hear there´s an ancient Greek fable about a donkey that starves because it can´t decide between two equal piles of food.
Yes and no.  The principle of the argument dates at least to Aristotle, but it wasn't codified, or put in terms of a donkey, until French philosopher Jean Burridan in the 14th century.  To this day, the illustration is commonly referred to as "Burridan's Ass".
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Legatus

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #45 on: 25 October 2014, 18:00:33 »
Dude, the game crossed that bridge in 1989.
I do not agree, but I am not here to change people's opinions, merely state mine.  When they introduced rules for nukes and gave us a full sourcebook of useless lies, half-truths and conspiracies in Dawn of the Jihad is when I believe that bridge was truly crossed.  The original background had an excellent reason for no WMD'S in the setting; the Jihad (to oversimplify things) was when the setting jumped the shark.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #46 on: 25 October 2014, 18:44:25 »
You were complaining about Mixed Tech.  Mixed Tech has been in the game since the Clans were introduced in 1989.

Regardless, you're complaining about something that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I started this thread about, which was tech that was already pointless when it was introduced or has sense become pointless to use because other tech surpasses it.
« Last Edit: 25 October 2014, 18:46:09 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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Sir Chaos

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #47 on: 25 October 2014, 18:53:22 »
Yes and no.  The principle of the argument dates at least to Aristotle, but it wasn't codified, or put in terms of a donkey, until French philosopher Jean Burridan in the 14th century.  To this day, the illustration is commonly referred to as "Burridan's Ass".

I stand corrected... well, sit down corrected, technically.
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Legatus

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #48 on: 25 October 2014, 19:36:43 »
You were complaining about Mixed Tech.  Mixed Tech has been in the game since the Clans were introduced in 1989.

Regardless, you're complaining about something that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I started this thread about, which was tech that was already pointless when it was introduced or has sense become pointless to use because other tech surpasses it.
Fair enough, and sorry about cluttering up your thread.  Yes, mixed tech has been around since then; it just did not have official sanction (in TRO's) until now.  And I was going by the previous discussion involving the addition of the Clan med pulse laser to the X pulse laser - since that was yet another piece of technology that has fallen by wayside (or could be, etc.).  Again, sorry to annoy you.  I appreciate your thread and the questions it is addressed.  Lots of good info to use if I ever play again. Thanks.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #49 on: 25 October 2014, 19:45:14 »
FASA published several scenario books that included Mixed Tech designs.
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Manticore

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #50 on: 25 October 2014, 19:55:06 »
You were complaining about Mixed Tech.  Mixed Tech has been in the game since the Clans were introduced in 1989.

Regardless, you're complaining about something that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I started this thread about, which was tech that was already pointless when it was introduced or has sense become pointless to use because other tech surpasses it.

Very true... however, as a recent 'returnee' to battletech, I tend myself swamped by the changes just in the Clan Invasion technology, and have not even taken a swing at the DA tech.

Let me offer an example from around 1980's era... there we were, happily fragging each other on a weekly basis, and one person brings in this book labeled 'Star League Era' ( No, not what it was called- but I forget, sometimes  ;) ) Now, allasudden, there's this whole big slug of 'tech' to absorb and incorporate into our game. Not complaining, mind you, it was all cool stuff and enhanced our games greatly. So far,so good.

Then the Clans show up, and kick all kindsa serious fundament. OK,cool, this looks like fun, But... we're all Gearheads. Now we have this incredible database of new tech, and as gearheads, we gotta redesign Everything -and giggle if you want, some of you out there know exactly what I mean. All of a sudden, our favorite design weights change.( For myself, it was 35, 45, 65, and 85 ton categories primarily, with the 'old' stuff). Now, we have to find new design weights, and how the 'new' tech changes things. We can make previously useless designs into something that will draw attention, not to mention coming up with our own designs.

And if you were 'canon' players, you very quickly realized how badly IS tech was outclassed. Yes, IS tech favored close range and physical combat, but if you were a canny player running Clan tech, that wasn't a problem. Stars vs. Lance, one side has an extra unit, etc... you should have sliced through IS units like a laser through cheese without any possibility of physical combat.

So, here we are now, some 30 years after the inception of the game. The clan tech has changed, what the IS can produce has changed, and mixed tech has become accepted.

As a side note, please do remember what kind of impact the advance in RL tech has had. When I got into the game, computers were pretty much the realm of ' those who hold the Sacred Knowledge' kind of thing, and M$ had been working on this whole new thing called' Windows', told to us by those who were fortunate enough to be able to attend college, and this whole new, unbelievably cool thing when we were still trying to understand how a BBS network would run. If you wanted the newest and neatest stuff, you had to haunt your favorite game store or comic shop on dang near a weekly basis. I pre -ordered the Twycross scenario book- and still have it- as it gave the best way to effectively understand and use all the fun new toys we'd been given, especially if you were a bibliophile and just Absolutely, Must Have the newest novels that gave a hint about how  to integrate all the new stuff.

So, here we are. Data overload? You'd better believe yer sweet Q&A

Still, all good. Might be a bit older, but whatthehell, let's run this pony.

So, as stated, here we are, looking at all of this and wondering if we still fit. Unseen? Whassat? Wait, you mean all the money I'd spent on all those cool minis, and I Can't bloody well use 'em in a Tournament?! I can't even show 'em, for risk of getting told that what I got is ... Non-Canon?! Really?!

Sorry. Personal bugaboo there.

Anyway, I can understand entirely how someone can still love the game and want to interact, but have really no desire to spend more coin on it, and not even want to try to design. Perhaps there's an answer in dividing the site into sections devoted to the different eras involved.

Think Legatus has an extremely valid point. Don't criticize him just because he ain't quite into it like he used to be, and please do keep in mind those of us who are still in the 'catch up ' phase.

Apologies for the long winded declamation, but it does hold a valid viewpoint.   

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #51 on: 25 October 2014, 20:00:25 »
Next we're going to get people complaining about the kids on their lawn.  ;)
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #52 on: 25 October 2014, 20:08:30 »
Next we're going to get people complaining about the kids on their lawn.  ;)

They're having a Renaissance Faire.  It's very loud.

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Legatus

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #53 on: 25 October 2014, 20:08:40 »
FASA published several scenario books that included Mixed Tech designs.
The "-C" variants in the Twycross supplement?  Those were the basis of my group's home rule about us in salvaged Clan tech... get one or two good Clan toys and deal with them PLUS the limits of 3025, or take the best I tech which, while not as good as Clan tech, was obviously much more available.  Nowadays, mixed tech is s valid an option as any, so you just get even Moe options.  Personally, I'd like to see something that made ALL the current tech obsolete and result in everyone having the same tech base.  Again, though, just use what you want and have fun at your table.  Fun is the point, after all.

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #54 on: 25 October 2014, 20:16:55 »
The "-C" variants in the Twycross supplement?

Them as well as the R variant omnimechs in The Dragon Roars.  But Mixed Tech machines are Tournament Legal only if the game is set during the Dark Age, and there's nothing that requires you to do so.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #55 on: 26 October 2014, 01:42:32 »
I find myself swamped but more about the story than the tech. I can't remember the names of all the tech or even where they are but that hasn't dampened my enthusiasm for constructing any. And I use anything and everything even if it isn't currently legal so there's even more toys for me to choose from.

The story though, all the fractions and characters I liked and those I liked not to like have all been killed off.  Because of that I'm having a hard time getting into the story. But I still like the tech. :)

To get back on topic. I can see some of the more advanced IS items fading away in favor of more advanced Clan tech. Much like it did with the Clans. Somethings, the Clans don't have will continue on until improved upon. The older tech will linger on a long time because there's so much of it. Really old tech will fade away again until it's just about impossible to get. And more and more items will end up being "mixed tech" in that they're available to both the IS and Clans. Eventually we'll get new classes of weaponry rendering even Clan tech obsolete. 

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #56 on: 26 October 2014, 03:58:51 »

So, as stated, here we are, looking at all of this and wondering if we still fit. Unseen? Whassat? Wait, you mean all the money I'd spent on all those cool minis, and I Can't bloody well use 'em in a Tournament?! I can't even show 'em, for risk of getting told that what I got is ... Non-Canon?! Really?!



(aside)

The Unseen aren't non-canon, and never have been.  And Agents can't use Unseen in official games (and we ask that you don't either and we should be willing and able to provide proxies), but no one is going to send ninjas to your house and punish you for using them in your home games.  And as far as any official tournaments, I can think of maybe two or three official events at the big cons that specifically forbid Unseen minis in their rules (as there are very few events that allow players to use personal miniatures, and in those cases we're more than glad to offer proxies for use. 
 

On the abandoned tech, a lot of it fits into the category of "niche" weapon.  As in it does something well, but not enough well to be made in wide use.

 
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #57 on: 26 October 2014, 07:10:55 »
I think that protomechs are pretty much in a dead end. They was introduced for one particular goal: Smoke Jaguars wanted cheap, fast, temporary advantage (for 2-3 years, with is a pilot lifetime) over IS. They're ugly, unpopular and obsolete both in universe and community.

I know one player in my country that have some of them and I don't remember seeing one on a table. I'm not surprised, since minis are awful and we use Toads for dirty work.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #58 on: 26 October 2014, 07:56:25 »
I think that protomechs are pretty much in a dead end. They was introduced for one particular goal: Smoke Jaguars wanted cheap, fast, temporary advantage (for 2-3 years, with is a pilot lifetime) over IS. They're ugly, unpopular and obsolete both in universe and community.

I know one player in my country that have some of them and I don't remember seeing one on a table. I'm not surprised, since minis are awful and we use Toads for dirty work.

We actually had a lot of advancements in ProtoMech technology in Wars of Reaving, so they do not seem to be at a dead end. Just the opposite. They have actually made a huge leap forward.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #59 on: 26 October 2014, 08:12:35 »
I think that protomechs are pretty much in a dead end. They was introduced for one particular goal: Smoke Jaguars wanted cheap, fast, temporary advantage (for 2-3 years, with is a pilot lifetime) over IS. They're ugly, unpopular and obsolete both in universe and community.
I can't quite agree with you.

1) In-universe:
In 3070s and 3080s the Homeworld Clans used them (the Blood Spirits especially) and it worked for them - and that's our last info on Homeworlds.

The Goliath Scorpions used them in 3090s - and that's our last info from the Deep Periphery.

The Hell's Horses field them in 3145, as do the Snow Ravens.

2) In-community:
Have you thought that perhaps some other players - than you usually play with - use the ProtoMechs more often?

 

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