Author Topic: 3025 era match-up: Goliath vs Griffin (Read 10387 times)

Black_Knyght · « **on:** 09 April 2016, 17:44:04 »

I was recently watching "Fang of the Sun Dougram" again, which of course was the original basis for the unseen Griffin and Goliath battlemechs.

And after a bit it suddenly occurred to me that, just like in the anime itself, the Battletech versions of these two mechs weren't that dissimilarly armed and that a match-up between the medium-class Griffin and the assault-class Goliath might not automatically be the forgone conclusion a Medium vs Assault battle usually is.

Consider the basics of each design, as presented in the 3025 era:

*Both mount a standard PPC and an LRM-10.

*The Goliath has a second LRM-10 and mounts a pair of machine-guns, while the Griffin mounts jump jets.

*The Goliath mounts 14.5 tons of armor and has a 4/6/0 movement, while the Griffin mounts 9.5 tons of armor and has a 5/8/5 movement.

*And of course the Goliath is a quad, whereas the Griffin is bipedal with two fully functioning arms/hands.

So, given equal piloting/gunnery skills, how would these two battlemechs fare against each other in a one on one match? Who would come away the clear winner, and who would get thoroughly pasted? Would it be a close match, or a one-sided beating?

Intermittent_Coherence · « **Reply #1 on:** 09 April 2016, 17:54:35 »

I'm no expert, but the similar weapon loadouts would imply similar effective engagement ranges. So it might still come down to who can throw the most damage down range and who can take the punishment better.

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #2 on:** 09 April 2016, 18:52:18 »

A fair point.

While the Goliath admittedly has 5 more tons of armor than the Griffin, I imagine the Griffin's jump jet will make a huge difference in this kind of duel.

Scotty · « **Reply #3 on:** 09 April 2016, 18:55:02 »

The Goliath 2H's BV is 1,449. The Griffin 1N's BV is 1,272. I would expect the Goliath to win most fights.

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #4 on:** 09 April 2016, 19:38:48 »

I don't know about that. It's been my experience that while BV is helpful, it's not an absolute in any battle.

backdraft68 · « **Reply #5 on:** 09 April 2016, 19:40:30 »

Then inability of the Goliath to torso twist combined with slightly more maneuverability may make it possible for the Griffin to take shots that the Goliath wouldn't be able to return.

Scotty · « **Reply #6 on:** 09 April 2016, 19:42:47 »

That's why I said "most" and not "all". ;)

Jump jets don't do as much as you think with regards to surviving in a duel. The maximum target movement modifier the Griffin is capable of achieving is +3 regardless (7 hexes running and 5 hexes jumping is the same modifier), but jumping means the Griffin will be less capable of shooting back.

The Goliath can only reach a +2, but it does so with an extra 6 damage (on average) over the Griffin and 80 points of armor, plus more favorable ability to take damage. If the Griffin loses a leg, the game is effectively over. If the Goliath loses a leg, it gets up and keeps walking.

@backdraft68: If the Griffin is in position to make it to a blind spot in the Goliath's firing arcs, then it is close enough that it is taking targeting penalties due to minimum range.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #7 on:** 09 April 2016, 20:59:10 »

It really depends on the map. For a large map with lots of open LOS, the Goliath's superior firepower helps. On a small map, especially one with lots of hills that block LOS, the Goliath's huge blindspot will get it killed.

Wrangler · « **Reply #8 on:** 09 April 2016, 22:33:40 »

If the pilot is very good, the Goliath could keep the Griffin from getting too many cheap hits in. Griffin's Jump Jets in straight up fight make difference defensively. Goliath's twin LRM launchers would be strong smackage against the Griffin. Thou there good reasons to get close and get into the Goliath's blind spot, i want say Goliath on paper, but i have to give it to the Griffin due it being tad more nibble and less vulnerable from getting into trouble.

CrossfirePilot · « **Reply #9 on:** 09 April 2016, 22:39:48 »

The Goliath is going to force more PSRs and will be able to survive more PSRs than the Griffin.

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #10 on:** 09 April 2016, 23:09:50 »

i could see the griffin winning if it uses the right tactics. the griffin is more mobile than the Goliath, even ignoring the jumpjets, and the griffin has its PPC in an arm mount, giving it much wider fire arc. if the griffin can keep it's distance and keep moving to the Goliath's flanks to stay out of the Goliath's forward weapon arc, it might be able to pull it off. a tactic most video game players ought to know, it's basically the circle strafe. :)

the difficult part is that the Goliath can turn in place quicker than the Griffin can move in it's arc to escape being brought into view, so the terrain/maps will matter a great deal.

The Eagle · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 April 2016, 00:15:55 »

If a swarm of Wasps can take down Cochran's Goliaths, I don't see how a single Griffin will have any trouble.

-=Ducks for cover=-

drakensis · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 April 2016, 02:16:14 »

The other point to consider is that a Griffin doesn't have as many heatsinks as a Goliath. The Griffin usually fires PPC or LRMs unless it's already running cool and has a good shot. A Goliath has much more leeway in that regard.

SteelRaven · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 April 2016, 14:03:39 »

The Griffin has speed and jump jets. If the mechwarrior takes advantage of any hindering terrain and the fact the Goliath cannot torso twist , then the Goliath can be worn down.

Same time the Goliath only needs to play it safe and take advantage it's armor to win the day.

Terrain will be a major factor regardless

Nahuris · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 April 2016, 15:29:03 »

Normally, I wouldn't weigh in on these, since so much depends on the dice... but I am also a speed player, and prefer faster units.
5/8/5 is not enough of a speed advantage over 4/6 to make that much of a difference. For one thing, anytime those jump jets are used, you are adding a +3 mod to the Griffin's shooting.... and really, are pretty much only useful when you are already at a high enough heat that you cannot run to cover, to cool down... at which point, adding 3 to 5 heat points, to a unit that only has 10 heat sinks, and is already overheating enough to lose movement, is unlikely to be a lot of help.
In addition, the only time that the Griffin will be able to take advantage of the blind spot on the Goliath is going to be in turns where it is both close enough, already, to run to that location, as jumping, with mods and heat would hurt your weapon fire, and also on turns where you win initiative, or the Goliath just turns around. Regardless, you have to hope you get something good out of it, and not just hit arm or leg, and also hope you can get away next turn, or you are vulnerable to an assault mech at a dangerous range.

It's not impossible for the Griffin to win, but, assuming relatively equal skill levels on the part of the players, and relatively statistical die rolls, as in, the Goliath isn't always missing on 4+, while the Griffin never misses a 9+ ..... then the odds are that the heavier armor, and slightly heavier firepower will win.

Nahuris

The Eagle · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 April 2016, 18:04:11 »

Quote from: Nahuris on 10 April 2016, 15:29:03

5/8/5 is not enough of a speed advantage over 4/6 to make that much of a difference.

Normally, I'd agree with you. However, in this case I must disagree because the Goliath lacks the great equalizer: the ability to torso twist. If you're able to cut beside and then behind the Goliath, the Griffin should be able to stay in the blind spot without too much trouble. At that point, it's just a question of how long it takes to chew through the big guy's armor.

Scotty · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 April 2016, 18:27:25 »

I don't know about you, but I can't rely on winning initiative every turn. Getting that close means you'll be too far from cover (if the Goliath has a smart pilot) to get out of the firing line when you inevitably lose it at least once. After the Griffin has to disengage, it's back to the drawing board because the Goliath can maximize the distance between them and prevent the Griffin from closing into the blind spot on the next turn.

Plus there's the whole "minimum range" thing again. If you're close enough to reliably exploit the blindspot, you're close enough that the guns aren't going to do a whole lot. The Goliath can potentially take as many as nine kicks from the Griffin before even going internal on a section. The Griffin will take internal damage on absolutely no more than the third successful kick, and that's if it gets lucky with the first one and ends up taking one on each leg and no other weapons fire until then.

There's a reason the Griffin's BV is substantially lower than the Goliath's.

SteelRaven · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 April 2016, 18:57:56 »

Almost forgot that a fought the Goliath variant in question. I was using a Marauder at the time so it not the best comparison for the OP but the lack of torso twisting did give me some good opportunities in a mech with the same speed. It did take some time to kill the Goliath so a Griffin would have to be very, very patient and avoid stupid mistakes to out last a 80 tone machine.

If this is a heavy wooded map or something with ally of hills and valleys, the Griffin can at least make it harder for the Goliath to bring it's weapons to bear and/or find some partial cover.

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 April 2016, 21:36:09 »

For the fun of it a friend and I play-tested this scenario out this weekend, and all in all it was a surprisingly even match.

First off, the Goliath's MG's never got used once. The never even once came into range.

Secondly, jumping the Griffin made it easy to steer clear of the Goliath's fields of fire, but made it next to impossible to hit the Goliath. And the missiles of both were not nearly as effective as you'd think they'd be. Most of the battle was outside of the PPC's min-range, but inside the missile min-range.

Oddly enough, the decisive moment in the battle came down to a Death-from Above attack. The Goliath had no way to counter or deal with that.

And before any critics point it out - This was played out with basic stock maps and equal gunnery/piloting skills. And while I get this is just one battle between two moderately skilled players, it did provide some interesting perspectives on this.

Two major points:
1) the maneuverability of the Griffin made it tough for the Goliath to hit it and complicated return fire by the Griffin,
and
2) the Goliath's armor turned out to be it's only real edge, not it's firepower.

The fight VERY quick headed for the trees and hills, which actually hindered the Goliath more than the Griffin due to it's jump jets. When the Goliath tried to draw the Griffin out of the trees it just faded back further and forced the Goliath to try to hunt it.

If they Griffin player works the strengths of the Griffin, he can do a lot more than expected. And the "I'm an assault mech" mentality doesn't work as well as expected with the Goliath.

I'd be curious to see anyone else play this out.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 April 2016, 21:48:55 »

Why would the Goliath go hunt for a Griffin in Trees?

Just move away from any cover & park.

The Goliath should not have had to move more than a Walk-Back or Pivot Left/Right once it was in range to shoot.

How did it get DFA'd w/o the MG's getting used?

worktroll · « **Reply #20 on:** 11 April 2016, 01:04:48 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 10 April 2016, 21:48:55

How did it get DFA'd w/o the MG's getting used?

Griffin jumped in from the side arc? This is where lack of torso twist does make it so much harder for the GOL.

Nahuris · « **Reply #21 on:** 11 April 2016, 04:01:14 »

That's where the Goliath should have been using the corner of the map --- if you are going to fight in an imaginary box, then use the box.... as for chasing a Griffin into the trees.. why bother ... just keep backing away, and make the Griffin eventually, either come to you, or let it play pogo bunny in the woods with the jump jets until the player gets bored.......

In the end, though, that Griffin carries too much of a heat burden to do more than one or two rounds of real offense, before it has to cool down... and again, you cannot guarantee the initiative win you need to exploit it's advantages. Yes, no torso twist leaves you limited to 60 degree arcs.. but that is still a large enough area to make it work.

Nahuris

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #22 on:** 11 April 2016, 16:06:32 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 10 April 2016, 21:48:55

Why would the Goliath go hunt for a Griffin in Trees?

Just move away from any cover & park.

The Goliath should not have had to move more than a Walk-Back or Pivot Left/Right once it was in range to shoot.

How did it get DFA'd w/o the MG's getting used?

The Goliath player tried to rely on his superior firepower and armor to force the Griffin out of the trees. It didn't work.

Every time he stood still, the Griffin backed off too or moved around and made the shots impossible to get through to him. The Griffin player was smart enough to not allow the Goliath to just sit there plinking at him and made him work for it.

The trees and hills made a big difference, especially with the Griffin's ability to jump. It quickly proved the Goliath is an open-country mech or not at all.

And the DFA attack came from the right rear quarter, and the MG's never came into play because of it.

Also, bear in mind this was also ONE game between two equally matched players who had their own ideas on what the strengths and weaknesses of their chosen mechs were. It demonstrated some interesting points, but was hardly a definitive statement. I imagine others players might get other results, or possibly even similar ones. Who knows until they try for themselves? Sometimes what looks black & white on paper isn't when given a practical application.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #23 on:** 12 April 2016, 22:54:59 »

Quote from: Nahuris on 11 April 2016, 04:01:14

That's where the Goliath should have been using the corner of the map --- if you are going to fight in an imaginary box, then use the box.... as for chasing a Griffin into the trees.. why bother ... just keep backing away, and make the Griffin eventually, either come to you, or let it play pogo bunny in the woods with the jump jets until the player gets bored.......

In the end, though, that Griffin carries too much of a heat burden to do more than one or two rounds of real offense, before it has to cool down... and again, you cannot guarantee the initiative win you need to exploit it's advantages. Yes, no torso twist leaves you limited to 60 degree arcs.. but that is still a large enough area to make it work.

Nahuris

Agreed

Hellraiser · « **Reply #24 on:** 12 April 2016, 22:59:55 »

Quote from: worktroll on 11 April 2016, 01:04:48

Griffin jumped in from the side arc? This is where lack of torso twist does make it so much harder for the GOL.

Shouldn't happen really.
If the Goliath looses initiative then they should back away to make sure the Griffin is coming from the front.
Barring multiple turns in a row of loosing initiative by the Goliath, that just shouldn't happen.

Quote from: Black_Knyght on 11 April 2016, 16:06:32

The Goliath player tried to rely on his superior firepower and armor to force the Griffin out of the trees. It didn't work.

The Griffin player was smart enough to not allow the Goliath to just sit there plinking at him and made him work for it.

And the DFA attack came from the right rear quarter, and the MG's never came into play because of it.

Also, bear in mind this was also ONE game between two equally matched players who had their own ideas on what the strengths and weaknesses of their chosen mechs were.

If the Goliath was playing the Griffin's game, and ran into trees, I'm not so sure they were equally skilled.

SteelRaven · « **Reply #25 on:** 12 April 2016, 23:10:43 »

Doesn't really matter if that shouldn't have happened, it happened.

Goliath pilot underestimated the Griffin, that's all you need to do to loose the match. Hats off to the Griffin for playing it smart and call it a learning experience for the Goliath.

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 April 2016, 01:11:04 »

Quote from: SteelRaven on 12 April 2016, 23:10:43

Doesn't really matter if that shouldn't have happened, it happened.

Goliath pilot underestimated the Griffin, that's all you need to do to loose the match. Hats off to the Griffin for playing it smart and call it a learning experience for the Goliath.

Bingo!

Tim and Nick are BOTH pretty skillful players with years of experience each. But Nick seriously underestimated the Griffin under Tim's control.

Tim went into this duel thinking the whole time, well aware that he was outclassed by an assault mech and had to play to his strengths.

Nick assumed that it was going to be a cakewalk since he had, on paper at least, all the advantages of having both the higher BV and a heavier assault mech. He played as if it was going to be a simple, easy win.

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback the duel after-the-fact. Hell, politicians and authors have being doing THAT for centuries. And I've seen more than a few games where the BV of two mechs wasn't a guarantee in the outcome of a fight between them. If it was, we'd all play only 100-ton clan mechs with the highest possible BV and nothing else.

I'd honestly be curious to see others face these two against each other, with equally skillful opponents using the same P/G skills and on a generalized mutli-terrain map that doesn't clearly favor one design or the other.

Although I'd add one proviso - You CAN'T simply sit in a corner the whole game. That's not about skill at all, that's about exploiting a quirk of the game. The point here is given equally skilled players on a generalized map, who would win?

Would it be a cakewalk, or would you have to work for your win?

agen2 · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 May 2016, 08:51:00 »

My instinct will take the Griffin ,keeping in mind the mantra"speed is life",but in this game yuo'll never know with rolling dice. Terrains play a big role.I will keep on focusing in getting close with the griffin to the goliath back and use punches and kicks.

Nahuris · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 May 2016, 00:12:04 »

Quote from: Black_Knyght on 13 April 2016, 01:11:04

Bingo!

Tim and Nick are BOTH pretty skillful players with years of experience each. But Nick seriously underestimated the Griffin under Tim's control.

Tim went into this duel thinking the whole time, well aware that he was outclassed by an assault mech and had to play to his strengths.

Nick assumed that it was going to be a cakewalk since he had, on paper at least, all the advantages of having both the higher BV and a heavier assault mech. He played as if it was going to be a simple, easy win.

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback the duel after-the-fact. Hell, politicians and authors have being doing THAT for centuries. And I've seen more than a few games where the BV of two mechs wasn't a guarantee in the outcome of a fight between them. If it was, we'd all play only 100-ton clan mechs with the highest possible BV and nothing else.

I'd honestly be curious to see others face these two against each other, with equally skillful opponents using the same P/G skills and on a generalized mutli-terrain map that doesn't clearly favor one design or the other.

Although I'd add one proviso - You CAN'T simply sit in a corner the whole game. That's not about skill at all, that's about exploiting a quirk of the game. The point here is given equally skilled players on a generalized map, who would win?

Would it be a cakewalk, or would you have to work for your win?

Actually, for a quad, sitting in a position where your flanks are protected, like a corner is a MUST HAVE skill --- it's a lack of skill to wander around exposing areas you can't fire into.
You want skill, use a rolling map .... but at that point, I would have just kept backing away from the Griffin in the woods until it was forced to come to me...... taunting him the whole time, if needed.

Nahuris

SteelRaven · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 May 2016, 02:16:31 »

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 May 2016, 12:15:46 »

No, it's a Goliath, not a Balius.

Nahuris · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 May 2016, 16:35:29 »

Quote from: SteelRaven on 24 May 2016, 02:16:31

Hey, I just bought a large steel bat, please, let me get in one or two hits.......

Nahuris

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 June 2016, 00:52:17 »

So there have been a number of comments on what the Goliath SHOULD have done, but what about the Griffin?

If YOU were the Griffin pilot, and knew what the Goliath pilot should be expected to do (as repeatedly commented above), and knew that you were out-classed from the starting gate by a mech with a better BV, what would you do to beat it?

What tactics would you use with the Griffin to beat an opponent who will likely just back into a corner and wait for you? Could you beat the Goliath if it did this?

SteelRaven · « **Reply #33 on:** 24 June 2016, 12:14:39 »

... are we going to bring this up once a month?

OK, everyone who disagreed with how the example matched play out, run your own match and tell everyone how it turns out. And I mean a actual match, no Megamech bot on easy.

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #34 on:** 24 June 2016, 14:46:30 »

If you're the Griffin, you have to use your advantages. Attack on the sides and retreat if you lose initiative. It's going to be a boring game, but only move in when you have the advantage. If he backs into a corner, use mobility to dash in and out, keeping the modifiers as high as possible. Outside of the machine guns you have the same ranged damage potential as the Goliath, so it's your movement vs. his armor.

SCC · « **Reply #35 on:** 24 June 2016, 15:36:07 »

OK, I've got an older set of rules around here somewhere where Quads, or more precisely their altered stats, are optional, how does the situation change if the Goliath is a bi-ped?

Black_Knyght · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 June 2016, 12:37:06 »

Quote from: SteelRaven on 24 June 2016, 12:14:39

... are we going to bring this up once a month?

OK, everyone who disagreed with how the example matched play out, run your own match and tell everyone how it turns out. And I mean a actual match, no Megamech bot on easy.

Sorry, didn't realize this would be a sore subject. I was just legitimately curious how the pro-like players here might have handled the inferior position of running the Griffin. It's easy to say what the Goliath should've done, but the Griffin presented the need for a more interesting set of tactics.

SteelRaven · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 June 2016, 19:37:00 »

Quote from: Black_Knyght on 25 June 2016, 12:37:06

Sorry, didn't realize this would be a sore subject. I was just legitimately curious how the pro-like players here might have handled the inferior position of running the Griffin. It's easy to say what the Goliath should've done, but the Griffin presented the need for a more interesting set of tactics.

Not really sore (sorry if I came off that way) I just don't want this to drag out because of one match. No sense questioning the results of one game when it's the scenario it self that was the topic to begin with.

AndyJ · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 June 2016, 01:23:10 »

Questions:

1. What if the Griffin went straight in from the side arc (probably using a jump) and straight out punched the Goliath twice a round if it wins initiative, and stay at the below LRM minimum but inside PPC range band otherwise?

2. Can the Goliath kick something that is not in its front or rear arcs?

Hellraiser · « **Reply #39 on:** 03 July 2016, 23:15:41 »

How do you place yourself at that perfect range when the Goliath moves after you?

This is the Issue.

The Griffin MUST win Initiative to be able to hit w/o getting hit back.

It also NEEDS wooded terrain to make it harder to hit because if the Goliath can get close to hit we are talking a mean kick.

Otherwise just walking to a perfect 6 hexes & Alpha Striking for more Damage & Less Overheat than the Griffin can dream of having.

Ideally the Goliath should avoid all trees & instead find a Level-1 hill in the open. Put it between the Griffin & himself & watch as all 4 legs are in cover.

SteelRaven · « **Reply #40 on:** 04 July 2016, 02:45:10 »

I don't recall anyone one saying that the Goliath did not have a advantage, it' has a 25 ton advantage.

YingJanshi · « **Reply #41 on:** 04 July 2016, 16:32:30 »

Can't really comment without running it myself (,lack of another player precludes that at the moment, but I will say one thing about the Goliath: it has a serious handicap in that it cannot torso twist, but that's slightly alleviated by the fact that it canmove diagonally without facing changes. Sure, it doesn't make up for no torso twist, but used smartly it can be quite a help.
Also to answer a question above, yes, quads can kick directly behind them.

But in the end, I'd still have to give it to the Griffin: its marginal advantage in speed and maneuverability of the JJ, gives it a bit more flexibility than the Goliath possesses. It would take a patient player, but I'd say 2 out of 3 games would go to the Griffin.