Author Topic: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom  (Read 127292 times)

Orwell84

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #690 on: 27 January 2023, 21:17:18 »
Absolutely nothing for the Ravens in the new Dominion Divided book.

Not quite but I'm a little disappointed too that the Raven Alliance didn't get some real screentime and a faction write-up. AFAIK they're the only major or mid-size faction now that doesn't have one (excluding the ilClan for obvious reasons).

A couple of Raven-related tidbits I did notice:

p. 43: Clan Sea Fox in the neighborhood around Bremond investigating the disappearance of the AML's VaultShip Epsilon, the one handling commerce with the Raven Alliance.

p. 74: news arrives that the Ravens seized Milligan - while wearing unit patches of the Cameron Star. Part of the ilKhan's plans or is Alaric going to find his new Star League having problems with the FedSuns because of a wayward 'subordinate'?
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Nibs

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #691 on: 27 January 2023, 22:36:16 »
Not quite but I'm a little disappointed too that the Raven Alliance didn't get some real screentime and a faction write-up. AFAIK they're the only major or mid-size faction now that doesn't have one (excluding the ilClan for obvious reasons).

A couple of Raven-related tidbits I did notice:

p. 43: Clan Sea Fox in the neighborhood around Bremond investigating the disappearance of the AML's VaultShip Epsilon, the one handling commerce with the Raven Alliance.

p. 74: news arrives that the Ravens seized Milligan - while wearing unit patches of the Cameron Star. Part of the ilKhan's plans or is Alaric going to find his new Star League having problems with the FedSuns because of a wayward 'subordinate'?

I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.

Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.

Raven Alliance? Nope.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2023, 22:42:40 by Nibs »

Orwell84

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #692 on: 28 January 2023, 00:10:55 »
I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.

Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.

Raven Alliance? Nope.

Maybe they have a pivotal role to play in the next book about the ilClan, like, say, pulling Alaric's backside out of the Capellan fire and gaining a lot of leverage for it. One can hope.
All Clan totems are equal but some are more equal than others.

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The Third Star League's view of the Succession Wars, plagiarised from an ancient Terran historian's judgement of the Thirty Years War.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #693 on: 31 January 2023, 00:48:40 »
I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.

Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.

Raven Alliance? Nope.

The Falcons had more dedicated to them and that was just recapping A Question of Survival.

I was very disappointed and then I heard how the Ghost Bears story worked out and figured, "eh, maybe it was OK to sit this one out."

I just hope we don't get turned into Wolf Clan lapdogs. Part of the new Star League? I can swallow that. I just hope we don't get turned into the one Clan that is supporting Wolf 100% and just used as support for how cool Alaric and the Wolves are storylines. Joining the Star League is one thing. I just hope we're still an independent faction in more than just name (well, as independent as you can be if you're part of Star League).

Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #694 on: 04 February 2023, 07:56:50 »
I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.

Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.

Raven Alliance? Nope.
'

the basic problem is that the Devs left them with no relevant role to play, no peers to conflict with, and an identity that has no role to play.

What do you do, when you're "The Warship Clan" and warships are extinct almost everywhere, to the point that there's no navy to contest with?

THAT is why the Ravens get no love-the Developers cornered them into a position where they don't have any narrative role to play besides "Oh, yeah, they exist...we guess.."

Nobody else has a Navy, and they signed on with Alaric's Star League/ilClan setup early and without so much as a ripple of dissent, so the next closest fleet in size?

isn't positioned to fight them, and nobody else has a fleet to fight with, leaving Snow Raven in the position of being bus-drivers for the ilClan, and/or having their fleet die and losing their whole 'schtick' that makes them interesting enough to keep around (from a narrative/game development perspective).

In a sense, the Raven Alliance is like their signature unit type-they linger, and in theory could be powerful, but there's not a damned thing to do with them so they're just kind of 'left there'.

I mean, what're they going to do, finishing off the COMBINED Inner Sphere fleets, even 1 to 1 casualties they still come out ahead and their ships are statistically better than any potential competitors (and more numerous) outside the other Clans-most of whom don't have much of a fleet either (Except Alaric, who's got most of two Touman's worth of warship survivors, plus the Ghost Bear fleet, plus...and the ravens on top of that.)

Basically their most likely opponents don't have a navy, and what relic ships they have don't have a working doctrine.

So the Snow Ravens are kind of like that old car with the cool paintjob you can't find fuel or spare parts for and the DOL won't certify as street legal, but you still own it, and it's too powerful for your local 1/8th mile monthly club drag night (*mostly populated by high schoolers and twenty-somethings with cheap stuff that isn't competitive outside that venue).

There's no attention, because there's nothing for the Snow Ravens to DO-at least, nothing that makes a good story, and the reason there's nothing to do, is that everything's been structured to make them supernumerary.  There are no peers to test them against, and after a while 'heroically sacrificing the relic warship' gets OLD (and often, reads as contrived).

So...if you want Clan Snow Raven relevant enough to get ink, something has to change, and the change itself will end up reading as deeply contrived in its own right.

here's where we're at:

1. can't cross swords with the largest OTHER fleet in the Inner Sphere (Clan Wolf plus whatever ships they grabbed at Terra).  Can't cross swords with the most POWERFUL potential enemy ships either (The Lev III's belonging to Ghost Bear), the Diamond Sharks turned theirs into strip malls, so no challenge there.

2. Nobody has a working fleet EXCEPT the Snow Ravens.  Nobody is building ships, nobody is building a Navy of really any kind, so there's no fight there, just a hand full of poorly maintained relics (ooh, the Davions have two foxes? oh, right, and they're half savaged themselves. [mocking tone]such a fight[/mocking tone],  The Lyrans have one half slagged Mjolnir and a Tharkad class that can't even move under its own power.  What a [mockery]Challenge[/mockery].

Nobody's got anything to fight the Snow Ravens with, their warships end up being irrelevant, so the Clan itelf?

well...is treated as irrelevant.  Like a top-fuel dragster in a collector's garage when you have a universal noise ordnance and fuel is rationed by someone who hates top fuel dragsters (or, indeed, any motorsport at all).
« Last Edit: 04 February 2023, 08:04:58 by Cannonshop »
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Maingunnery

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #695 on: 04 February 2023, 16:33:24 »
Yep the other top Clans are also allies (as far as allies go within the Clans..). So unless the HW Clans decide to pay them a visit they are the absolute top dogs. So they either modernize the WarShips into true Combat Transports (like the Lev III) or send them away (deep periphery patrols?). I rate the former more likely as there is a big need now for collars.

But thankfully the Ravens do not really need the WarShips anymore for combat as their MUL list is very good.
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Jellico

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #696 on: 04 February 2023, 16:42:19 »
Did they ever finish that Leviathan III?

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #697 on: 04 February 2023, 18:33:59 »
Did they ever finish that Leviathan III?

Probably, considering it mentions 4 Warships in the RasDom navy in DD. We only have the Lev II, and two Carracks otherwise. And it’s not like Carracks are particularly useful for big boy naval combat
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #698 on: 04 February 2023, 18:53:02 »
Probably, considering it mentions 4 Warships in the RasDom navy in DD. We only have the Lev II, and two Carracks otherwise. And it’s not like Carracks are particularly useful for big boy naval combat
Four ships? I am pretty sure only one Carrack was left by 3104.

I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.

Maingunnery

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #699 on: 04 February 2023, 18:59:30 »
I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.
Not yet seen, but we do not know if they are actually building a new Lev III, building escorts, or refurbishing older ships to the same standard.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #700 on: 04 February 2023, 18:59:54 »
Four ships? I am pretty sure only one Carrack was left by 3104.

I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.

Ah I see that in FM3145, I’ve been duped…

They were gonna get one too?
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #701 on: 05 February 2023, 05:45:52 »
How I see it, having the biggest fleet is good, a no brainer (Capital Assets), take systems by simply deploying and occupying Jump points, and kill anything that comes near, from the Planet, or another system. The Raven's could develop more support stuff, especially Protomech and thier modified dropships, there is some stroy dev there I reckon, and also if Bear does make a good stab at Luithen, Raven's could make a good link up in a back stab.

With their navy size as its un-oppossed, as part of the new SLDF, they could even "hold open" entire systems for more realistic Trials of Position

BrianDavion

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #702 on: 05 February 2023, 06:41:51 »
How I see it, having the biggest fleet is good, a no brainer (Capital Assets), take systems by simply deploying and occupying Jump points, and kill anything that comes near, from the Planet, or another system. The Raven's could develop more support stuff, especially Protomech and thier modified dropships, there is some stroy dev there I reckon, and also if Bear does make a good stab at Luithen, Raven's could make a good link up in a back stab.

With their navy size as its un-oppossed, as part of the new SLDF, they could even "hold open" entire systems for more realistic Trials of Position

And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #703 on: 05 February 2023, 09:42:52 »
And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.

Clan Sea Fox blockaded Regulus pretty well. The new Star League has the fleet basically.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #704 on: 06 February 2023, 00:57:16 »
And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.
Unfortunately I agree with you..  It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose...   because they are the fleet clan.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #705 on: 06 February 2023, 05:08:47 »
Unfortunately I agree with you..  It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose...   because they are the fleet clan.

and thats a problem, even if they keep their fleet, thats a problem, "we use a disproportionate number of unit X" isn't a faction identity, it's a meme
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Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #706 on: 06 February 2023, 05:18:06 »
Unfortunately I agree with you..  It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose...   because they are the fleet clan.

dingdingding!!!

hence why I said what I said.

the writers have created a situation where they have only one option, and that option doesn't leave room for Clan Snow Raven.

The extinction of fleets..

IN A WARGAME UNIVERSE (except the one? and they're allied to their nearest peers?) creates a predetermined outcome that can be seen, ahem...

From Orbit.
 
Extincting the Raven fleet extincts the Ravens as a unique element.

They're not gonna DO THAT, so the Ravens are, by definition, NPC-only.

AKA irrelevant.

How? if you make them relevant, you either create a condition of automatic win for the ilClan/Star League (in which case, why bother with anything else?) or, they have to start extincting warships among the Ravens (Stripping the faction of all uniqueness when it has almost no real development of its own.)

rendering them irrelevant for storyline purposes.

(also, extincting their fleet requires a series of contrived events at this point, since nobody has a means to effectively fight or resist them, leading to very boring story material and unplayable scenarios.)

Now, admittedly, they did use the most contrived circumstances to extinct everyone who might oppose alaric's fleet...but there's a point where it loses credibility and supension of disbelief factor. 

in some ways, we're past that already with many players and readers, but not completely past it,

not yet, anyway.

We'll get there, if the Ravens start becoming more relevant, unfortunately, because they'll have to either contrive up some form of effective opposition, or holyshroud the Ravens the way they did just about everyone else with heavy doses of the stupid juice.

If nobody can compete (and nobody can) then it's a dead-end.

If FactionA has a fleet-even a poor one full of poor designs, and faction B does not have a fleet? guess who's going to control an archipelago and thus, have an empire?  (Hint: It's not Faction B.)

Nobody has a fleet, except Alaric and his buddies.  ilClan fails the test of 'interesting or dramatic'.
« Last Edit: 06 February 2023, 05:25:59 by Cannonshop »
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BrianDavion

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #707 on: 06 February 2023, 05:26:05 »
I mean the obvious answer here is to develop the ravens so that they have something going for them other then "WARSHIP CLAN!"
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Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #708 on: 06 February 2023, 07:42:20 »
I mean the obvious answer here is to develop the ravens so that they have something going for them other then "WARSHIP CLAN!"

Okay, suggest something.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #709 on: 06 February 2023, 07:57:11 »
Going to give Lance Scarinci (aka Jai Phoenix) some credit here. He's been trying to give the Ravens some attention with his new Marauder stories as well as with the Rec Guide writeups for the new and updated Raven and Alliance mechs.  He's pointed out that the Ravens are venturing into the Outlands Wastes and down to Novo Franklin.  There's also been at least cooperation if not collaboration with the Knights of Randis and the Raven Watch.

I've really enjoyed these stories along with Doc Swift's tales of the Scorpions.  Looking forward to more from these parts of the Periphery.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #710 on: 06 February 2023, 08:01:59 »
Going to give Lance Scarinci (aka Jai Phoenix) some credit here. He's been trying to give the Ravens some attention with his new Marauder stories as well as with the Rec Guide writeups for the new and updated Raven and Alliance mechs.  He's pointed out that the Ravens are venturing into the Outlands Wastes and down to Novo Franklin.  There's also been at least cooperation if not collaboration with the Knights of Randis and the Raven Watch.

I've really enjoyed these stories along with Doc Swift's tales of the Scorpions.  Looking forward to more from these parts of the Periphery.

I'm curious, this isn't mocking, but how about a show of hands (and support) for those stories? who's a fan? who can give us some quick rundowns for the uninitiated on those stories?  (titles, maybe a quick review or two?)

There's a need, because the stereotype of 'Da Wahship Klan' ain't gonna cut it with the state of the setting being what it is, and is likely to continue to be, so if one doesn't wish the Snow Raven/Raven Alliance to suffer the ignominous demise of irrelevancy, (and possibly being the next one cut when we get a change of dev team) maybe emphasizing this within the community might be...oh...maybe a good idea?

Y'know, some free advertising?
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #711 on: 06 February 2023, 09:23:09 »
The answer is to let WarShips come back but have Alaric give everyone the Ares Convention 2: Electric Boogaloo to sign. At least then he'll actually be good for something.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #712 on: 06 February 2023, 10:06:30 »
Okay, suggest something.


The working theory I have right now is they did Jack squat in DD because they’ll get attention in ilKEO. They have a warship Star and two khans in Sol around June of 3151 and have a desire to be part of the Faux League. I have to imagine two khans warrant a pretty hefty mech/asf escort.

If I made a wager, it’s that they’ll take a planet near Terra. One with manufacturing to support their mechs. Maybe new Earth or Caph?  Meanwhile their fleet “aids” Alaric by sitting in Sol to both look for any opportunity to gain a political edge while making Alaric sit less comfy.

From there, In really not sure where you go. They are the political clan as well as the ASF and warship clan. So there’s always shenanigans they can get up to.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #713 on: 06 February 2023, 10:09:12 »

The working theory I have right now is they did Jack squat in DD because they’ll get attention in ilKEO. They have a warship Star and two khans in Sol around June of 3151 and have a desire to be part of the Faux League. I have to imagine two khans warrant a pretty hefty mech/asf escort.

If I made a wager, they’ll take a planet near Terra. One with manufacturing to support their mechs. Maybe new Earth or Caph?  Meanwhile their fleet “aids” Alaric by sitting in Sol to both look for any opportunity to gain a political edge while making Alaric sit less comfy.

From there, In really not sure where you go. They are the political clan as well as the ASF and warship clan. So there’s always shenanigans they can get up to.

We also know they are up to something in DD, based on their strike on the FedSuns.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #714 on: 06 February 2023, 10:17:04 »
Unfortunately I agree with you..  It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose...   because they are the fleet clan.

Ummm…. Aren’t they also considered experts in fighter combat?

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #715 on: 06 February 2023, 10:18:27 »
Ummm…. Aren’t they also considered experts in fighter combat?
Yep, something the Snow Ravens share with the Outworlds Alliance.

Without the Cloud Cobras around, Raven Alliance aerospace spam is generally the scariest.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #716 on: 06 February 2023, 10:27:34 »
We also know they are up to something in DD, based on their strike on the FedSuns.

Facerolling the Fedsuns in the 32nd century isn't exactly difficult.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #717 on: 06 February 2023, 11:33:57 »
Hi all. so what do you think of the Stormbird Battle Armor and the interesting events in the Outworlds wastes in the fluff?

I mean, I'm glad that the Ravens get a heavy suit, although I personally like the Falcon version better.

However, with regards to the Stormbird  fluff, that's a bit more interesting than the suit itself:

Quote
"A Star of solahma tanks and infantry went missing wholesale, along with their DropShip. Watch operatives found only the bodies of five warriors, shot execution style and left to rot outside the crumbled walls of an ancient SLDF base. Unwilling to let it go at that, the Watch Elementals donned their Stormbird suits and investigated the underground portions of the apparently abandoned site. Behind a false rockfall, they discovered a fully operational facility manned by soldiers better-trained than typical pirates. The Stormbirds filled the corridors with smoke and flames, until the defenders brought battlesuits of their own to drive the Ravens away. With more than half of his forces lost, Star Captain Anders withdrew from Gaeri and reported the find. A follow-up investigation by elements of the First Long Road Legion found the base to be annihilated in a way consistent with orbital bombardment."

Why would the Ravens react like this? There really are only a few possibilities:
1. WoB remnants (probably the most likely)
2. Society/Dark Caste Remnants (my personal theory, but seems unlikely because Society doesn't really use BA)
3. Homeworld Clan listening post signalling and incoming invasion (Coronas could explain the "until the defenders brought battlesuits of their own to drive the Ravens away" bit)
4. Genecaste/Tetatae ???  :D
5. Wolverines have come back to claim the title of ilClan, obviously
« Last Edit: 06 February 2023, 14:00:50 by Crow »
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #718 on: 06 February 2023, 18:31:20 »
The Ravens don’t need to be the Warship clan per se but it’s what they are and have been since their inception. That being said Pocket Warships and Assault DropShip can clearly be the new ‘meta’ for the universe and I would like to see the Ravens get in in that game some more. They seem to be fully supporting the IlClan but I do agree (with someone upthread) who said they could be in ‘IlKhans Eyes Only’. For they and the Capellans are the two primary factions (other than the Wolves) yet to be featured in this series in anything but side mentions.

Somewhere in another thread somebody mentioned Shrapnel. I do approve of Jal’s Raven stories and of the Scorpion ones posted but as said: you can submit to Shrapnel some stories if you want. Shape the way you want them to evolve potentially. Again just a suggestion.

As far as their new gear: I am liking the new items they are getting in the RecGuides and ‘hopefully’ some trade between the Ravens and the Bears can get some of it over to us. A couple of your new Omni’s and even things like the Merlin C could prove pretty useful. Please ignore our ongoing civil war.

BrianDavion

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #719 on: 06 February 2023, 19:05:57 »
Facerolling the Fedsuns in the 32nd century isn't exactly difficult.

one border world ain't exactly face rolling.

« Last Edit: 06 February 2023, 20:14:15 by BrianDavion »
The Suns will shine again

 

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