Author Topic: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire  (Read 6808 times)

BrianDavion

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MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« on: 01 June 2022, 23:23:10 »
Hello everybody! So it's a new week, and time for a new MOTW, this week we'll look at Tech readout 3067's "cover girl" the Saggitire from Robinson Standard battleworks.

Sagittaire is, the best I can determine, the french word for the constellation Sagittarius. A centaur archer of myth, and much like the horse archers of old, the Sagittarie is a fearsome presence on the field of battle.

The Saggitire was first introduced in 3062 and was at the time of introduction a real beast, it should be noted that back when the Saggitre came out you could still location target with pulse lasers and thus the Sag was a damned scary mech (this mech is ONE of the reasons they nerfed the TC+Pulse combo) and for a good long time the classic 8R variant was our only variant.

The Saggitire in all its variants is a design for close combat, well suited to the brutal infighting of the Fedcom Civil War and the Jihad where it first bloodied itself.

With that out of the way let’s move onto the Variants:


SGT-8R - The Original variant of the Saggitire, and the soul variant we had for 10 years, is a close combat nightmare, packing twin large lasers, 5 Medium Pulse lasers a small pulse lasers, and a ER PPC for “token long range firepower” this firepower is on a fearsome package of 18 tons of armor with 3/5/3 movement with a XL fusion engine. The weapons setup is interesting, with both LPLs, paired MPLs and the SPL being arm mounted on “flippy arms” as well as 2 of the remaining 3 MPLs being rear mounted, the Saggitire actually has MORE close range firepower behind it then it does ahead of it. And with that kind of pulse laser firepower tied to a targeting computer (ohh right I forgot to mention that, yeah folks it has a targeting computer!) god help any Spider pilots who think hopping into your rear arc was a good idea… they’re going to regret not having an ejection seat!
As I mentioned beforehand, originally the Saggitire was designed when pulse laser targeting locations were doable, and the design was clearly intended to be a duelist, put in the hands of a skilled gunner who can buzz  saw through torsos. And the fluff clearly represents this, with the changes the Saggy is a little less effective as a duelist, but is a valuable mech for built in areas. Especially if you’re fighting a lot of fast and annoying light mechs. Able to completely remove the TMM penalty of many popular light jumpers. It may no longer be the “BUZZ SAW OF DOOM” that it was previously, but it still holds a useful role in the AFFS.

The second Variant is the

SGT-9D - First introduced in 3074, (OOCly in 2012’s RS: 3067 unabridged) during the Jihad, the Saggitire 9D takes a very differant approach from any other design in the series. Functioning as a command mech. The variant swaps out the Targeting computer for a C3 Master, dumps the LPLs and replaces them with twin LB10X Autocannons (arm mounted) the over all weapons load is 1 ER PPC, 2 LB 10Xs with 2 tons ammo each, 5 Medium lasers (of these 2 are arm mounted 2 are rear mounted and 1 fires to the front) and 1 small pulse laser. And a C3 Master computer. This is a very different animal. Much like the classic original variant it actually has more rear firepower then.  The LB10Xs combined with the ER PPC give this variant a considerably different range profile (especially considering the C3M computer) . I’ll admit I actually had been unaware of this variant until writing this article and I’m eager to give the variant a try. As I think it could be quite effective, able to lay down a barrage at range comparable to the classic Awesome. The Jump jets combined with the classic trait of “actually being able to lay heavier firepower behind it” also means that light mech headhunters won’t have an easy time with this command mech.



Up third is the Post Jihad Early Republic Era

SGT-10X- First introduced in 3084, the Sagittaire 10X is a classic example of “New Toy syndrome” as the RMW designers literally jammed every new technology they could find on the frame. The mech had its survivability increased by replacing the XL engine with a Light fusion engine, and then freed up space in the head and a spare extra ton by replacing the cockpit with a small cockpit. This allowed the mech space to mount triple  torso mounted Medium VSPLs, a head mounted MVSPL and a Light PPC in each arm. As well as 5 Improved Jump jets allowing it to jump far longer than any 95 tonner has any right. Of course it pays 14 tons for this extra two jump movement. This Sagittaire variant has the distinction of being the first of it’s kind available outside the Federated Suns (ok ok the Flivelt coalition has the earlier models, but let’s be honest they don’t count). I have some issues with this variant. I know some people really like it as a heavy jumper with Medium VSPLs. But it loses so much to do this, for one thing it NEEDS this jumpy mobility more as it can no longer divert ample fire power to it’s rear, as the light PPCs are the only arm mounted flippy weapons it has, and no weapons fire to the rear. This isn’t necessarily BAD but it does mean the mech will play differently from earlier variants. Playing more like an oversized grasshopper. I’m not a big fan of IJJs myself (as I said that’s 14 TONS used to gain 2 jump movement). Over all this is an interesting variant but I’m not a fan of it. It reeks of “new toy syndrome”. My personal headcanon is this is a testbed model that is mostly used as the “Export model”


Finally we reach what I would call the, for now, ultimate evolution of the Sagittaire, the

SGT-14D - This variant, introduced in the 3130s,  seems to combine a little bit of the last 3 variants, as well as technological breakthroughs made since the early days of the Republic, to produce a reasonably effective compromise. Maintaining the Light fusion engine and small cockpit  of the 10X, the 14D removes the over toned Improved Jump jets, dropping down to 3 standard ones, all of this is mated to a new chassis made of composite endo-steel.

So with that out of the mind the obvious question is “what does it shoot with?” the answer is. An interesting mix. The design drops the PPCs, for triple large lasers, a single ER works as the token distance weapon, while backed up by two of the federated suns new RE Large Lasers.

Added to this mix are 3 Medium VSPLs, a Medium X Pulse laser, and a Boosted C3 slave (the only real nod to the excellent SGT-9D). The mech is kept “cool” by 17 double heat sinks and a radical heat sink. Learning from the mistakes of the past, all but the ER LL is mounted in the arms, allowing the Sagittaire 14D to fire the bulk of its weapons to the rear, while avoiding wasting tonnage on rear weaponry. As Robinson fell to the Dracs during the 3140s, enough of this mech has been produced to be on the DC MUL, given it’s the ONLY variant on their MUL, I think it’s safe to say that by 3145 this was the only variant of Sagittaire in production. Overall I think it’s a solid one, that combines the best of every variant into one package. And makes.. Not all together bad use of the Fedsuns new toys in the Dark Ages.


So that’s the Saggitire and my thoughts on it, what are yours?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2022, 00:37:52 »
The Saggy is a ridiculously sized mini.  Definitely part of IWM's "Scale?  What's that?" phase.

For all this mech's vaunted ability, I haven't seen it in action much.  The main time was when one tried bum rushing a Thunder Hawk and caught a Gauss slug in the face for its trouble.
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BrianDavion

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2022, 00:45:19 »
Yeahit's defaintyl a design best used in built up terrain, in open fields I imagine it's going to get put down fast
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #3 on: 02 June 2022, 01:05:07 »
It was actually close enough that the T-Hawk took minimum range penalties on the shot.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #4 on: 02 June 2022, 01:13:53 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2022, 01:47:04 »
There's a C3 Master variant with 2 LBX and a ERPPC :drool: that actually sounds very decent
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BrianDavion

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2022, 02:11:59 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..

yeah but when those large lasers are large PULSE lasers it is :)
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #7 on: 02 June 2022, 02:18:56 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..

Fifteen hexes is medium range at best and relying on it to do anything at long range will only hurt you.  They're also actually Large Pulse Lasers, not standard Large Lasers.

I am generally speaking not a fan of Sagittaires in urban environments.  The combination of 3/5/3 and pulse lasers with targeting computer is excellent accuracy, but it's accuracy that offsets the fundamental weakness of 3/5/3 in built up terrain.  Yes, you'll be able to zero out the penalties from jumping, but when you have to be jumping basically every turn to even be in range you're starting from a net zero, not a net positive.

In that way, the Sagittaire is something I would use more as an anvil than as an ambusher.  It's too large and slow to be able to reliably pull off more than one ambush, and too expensive in every meaning of the word to be only favorably engaging one unit in a given fight.  Ideally, it would be in use in a defensive role where the attacker needs to close.  It works excellently as a bodyguard for minimum range limited units, and with the flip arms and rear mounted weapons it doesn't even have to put in extra effort to get all guns on target.

The Sagittaire 10X is the best model available and it's not close.  Significant jump capability means putting VSPLs in short range for complete offset is more doable than the basic 8R even if it's starting from the same general net-zero, and you're putting up higher TMMs for increased durability to boot.  Switching from an XL to a Light Fusion also makes the design more survivable.  Medium VSPLs are hilariously good at cutting up targets at short ranges and its heat profile is significantly better than the 8R (+14 with the ER PPC forward while jumping unless I'm miscounting, -1 without for the 8R; +5 with all weapons jumping on the 10X).  Being almost 300 BV cheaper is just the icing on the cake.  I'd take this every day of the week and twice on Sundays over the 8R.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #8 on: 02 June 2022, 06:13:37 »
I am generally speaking not a fan of Sagittaires in urban environments.  The combination of 3/5/3 and pulse lasers with targeting computer is excellent accuracy, but it's accuracy that offsets the fundamental weakness of 3/5/3 in built up terrain.  Yes, you'll be able to zero out the penalties from jumping, but when you have to be jumping basically every turn to even be in range you're starting from a net zero, not a net positive.
A net zero is still better than starting on a +3 deficit.

And having the right pilot, it can actually start getting gains back.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #9 on: 02 June 2022, 06:50:57 »
Great article! I've never had the opportunity to use a Saggitaire, but with it coming out in plastic, I'm certainly hoping to get to. I've never found a close range armament to be an issue on the map sizes people actually play at, so I'm sure it will perform.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #10 on: 02 June 2022, 07:17:51 »
I didn't realize the Combine got the 14D, so that gets me a bit more interested in the plastic release.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #11 on: 02 June 2022, 09:34:45 »
One of those 'Mechs i always dismissed completely due to its looks. Not just the art, just bizarreish design in general. Unfortunately art redo isn't changing this, at least judging by ELH force pack render, still looks too weird for me to like it.

Stats don't really help. I don't mind pulse lasers, and the 8R is admirably focused design as opposed to a generalist, but i'm not really keen on the combination of mass, speed and short range. Prefer ranged assaults, not brawlers even though i'm otherwise inclined toward brawling.
9D is a C3 master, so i'll dismiss it as too specialized. (And i don't touch C3 for BV games.)
10X has improved jump jets so it doesn't matter what else it has, not touching it.
14D just makes me shrug. Doesn't look too bad on paper, some aesthetic issues aside (why not 4th MVSPL instead of X-pulse) but it doesn't strike to me as interesting enough to raise my opinion of the Sagittaire.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #12 on: 02 June 2022, 09:39:39 »
So that’s the Saggitire and my thoughts on it, what are yours?

Missing the down-graded Saggitaire from Jacob's Juggernauts which is found in . . . Wolf Hunters? and IIRC later referenced again with the merc unit in a Shrapnel story.

I have always wanted to like the Saggy but for the original you are talking about a mech loaded with pulse weapons that cannot get those weapons in use except in the most specialized situations.  It is unfortunately built for table top fights in a phonebook.  Unless I was fighting in the crowded center of a very old city, ancient dense woods, or very tight canyons the mech would not concern me on the battlefield.  Granted, in those situations, it would be terrifying for it's ability to rip into enemy mechs though it lacks a crit-seeker, something that should be assigned as it's wingman by doctrine.  Later ones get better, particularly the 9D being a very common sense C3M design.  The 10X is overloaded with MVSPL and unfortunately saddled with anemic light PPCs, even if it is more mobile.  The 14D still having a small cockpit is just sad, something that cannot avoid being brought to physical attack range should not have that sort of penalty.

Only time I have ever seen one used on table top was back under BV1 when the game was 2 mechs with just the BV of the mechs counted, the pilots then assigned using the Gunslinger rule.  I put a veteran Arctic Wolf toe to toe with a green Saggy pilot on the last turn of the game as a bravado move . . . the Arctic Wolf lit up the Saggy, survived it's return fire & the fire from it's team (well, half the mech did anyway), and remained standing when the giant fell.  To add insult to that injury, the Arctic Wolf pilot missed being kicked by a Stormcrow but managed to give the downed Saggy a good boot.

The Arctic Wolf pilot was voted the MVP for that game by the other players.
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BrianDavion

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #13 on: 02 June 2022, 12:13:58 »
14D just makes me shrug. Doesn't look too bad on paper, some aesthetic issues aside (why not 4th MVSPL instead of X-pulse) but it doesn't strike to me as interesting enough to raise my opinion of the Sagittaire.

Space and Tonnage issues. there's no room to put another MVSPL on,
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #14 on: 02 June 2022, 12:16:56 »
I see the SGT-8R filling a similar role to a jumping version of the Atlas AS7-D, with the pulse lasers taking the role of the medium lasers, SRM launcher, and AC/20, and the ER PPC taking the role of the LRM, all with a TC and no ammo.  Only thing now is that it can't punch...  But it can jump!
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #15 on: 02 June 2022, 12:22:47 »
Before the 10X was a thing, I played in a worldwide event (I think) during the FedCom Civil war--4th Crucis Lancers and ComStar against a couple of Donegal Guards formations.  The Lancers CO was in a Sagittaire and by the time he was in range to meaningfully contribute, (thanks, pulse Lasers) the direction of the battle was already set.  That pretty much formed my opinion of the Sagittaire, and I've never fielded one in the 20 some odd years since then. 

Luckily, the Donegal CO was in a Fafnir and did herself in by falling repeatedly firing those Heavy Gauss Rifles.  So I guess you can say neither CO meaningfully contributed.   ;D

Also--I'm not crazy about mechs that look like they can't stand back up after they fall over.  Sagittaire and Stalker, I'm looking at you.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #16 on: 02 June 2022, 12:39:59 »
Ooo, marketing slogan . . .

"Saggitire . . . a wide body Stalker."
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #17 on: 02 June 2022, 13:07:26 »
Space and Tonnage issues. there's no room to put another MVSPL on,
Ditch the boosted slave and small cockpit, works out perfectly. Granted, the 'Mech ain't bad pointman for a C3 unit as it is, though i think small cockpit ain't a great idea for something that's gonna be in close combat often, piloting penalty is risky  there.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #18 on: 02 June 2022, 13:26:45 »
See I would have preferred the other way, 2 Med VSPL & 2 XPulse which gets you better chances to hit that their longer range with the freed up weight/crit letting you have a standard cockpit while being the spotter.  Let's you keep the C3B slave . . . honestly, with the resurrection of Zeta Battalion, it would be interesting to see if the Dragoons can stand up a C3B network- even a single lance!- with a -14D on point.  The design matches their doctrine so well- 'This End Toward Enemy.'

I understand the small cockpit for the MD mechs, it makes sense there . . . but in regular Inner Sphere production?  It is pretty much the definition of new toy syndrome.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #19 on: 02 June 2022, 18:15:26 »
I agree Colt, I'm not a fan of the Small cockpit, on the 10X and 14D it reaaaally felt like they wanted to just do it to slide a 2 crit item into the head. The 14D isn't bad but yeah the 10X feels like it has a HORRIABLE case of new toy syndrome.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #20 on: 02 June 2022, 20:06:22 »
Think we'll get a Clantech variant when the lance pack drops?
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #21 on: 02 June 2022, 21:51:27 »
Either that or some Kurita abomination with every kind of PPC on it
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #22 on: 02 June 2022, 22:42:08 »
Toss the jump jets, get some Snubs on it. Perfection(?)

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #23 on: 02 June 2022, 22:57:26 »
Unless Catalyst breaks formula, it'll be a WSWG configuration, so the jump jets will stick around.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #24 on: 02 June 2022, 23:13:03 »
Unless Catalyst breaks formula, it'll be a WSWG configuration, so the jump jets will stick around.

The showpiece stone rhino broke that pattern, although it's a bit of an exception.


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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #25 on: 02 June 2022, 23:15:17 »
I rather the Sagittaire keeps the Jump Jets as it's competing with the Banshee, Nightstar and Tenshi, gives it a little bit of a edge. Most likely be mixed tech like the Black Knight BL-18-KNT or the Marauder II MAD-10D.

The showpiece stone rhino broke that pattern, although it's a bit of an exception.
The Stone Rhino 7 may have been the WYSISYG variant as it has the same number of guns in the right locations + JJ.
« Last Edit: 02 June 2022, 23:21:32 by SteelRaven »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #26 on: 02 June 2022, 23:28:35 »
The showpiece was the original, but I think you mean the 8, not the 7, which had four guns on the torso instead of 3.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #27 on: 03 June 2022, 01:16:18 »
Think we'll get a Clantech variant when the lance pack drops?

Hard to say. we could also get a varient that leans into RE lasers in a big way
 
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #28 on: 03 June 2022, 01:19:52 »
The showpiece was the original, but I think you mean the 8, not the 7, which had four guns on the torso instead of 3.

I missed the 7 retained the small laser. Thought you where referring to the 8 for lack of Jump Jets, sorry.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #29 on: 03 June 2022, 13:44:38 »
I rather the Sagittaire keeps the Jump Jets as it's competing with the Banshee, Nightstar and Tenshi, gives it a little bit of a edge. Most likely be mixed tech like the Black Knight BL-18-KNT or the Marauder II MAD-10D.
Since the FedSuns is making Clanspec lasers and PPCs (ExoStar Pinnacle) I'd love to see a mix of Clan and Relasers.  Maybe Clan ERPPC, LargeRelasers, and ER Clan mediums.  Keep the JJ for flavor.  Keep the arms flippable. 

 

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