Author Topic: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire  (Read 6807 times)

BrianDavion

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MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« on: 01 June 2022, 23:23:10 »
Hello everybody! So it's a new week, and time for a new MOTW, this week we'll look at Tech readout 3067's "cover girl" the Saggitire from Robinson Standard battleworks.

Sagittaire is, the best I can determine, the french word for the constellation Sagittarius. A centaur archer of myth, and much like the horse archers of old, the Sagittarie is a fearsome presence on the field of battle.

The Saggitire was first introduced in 3062 and was at the time of introduction a real beast, it should be noted that back when the Saggitre came out you could still location target with pulse lasers and thus the Sag was a damned scary mech (this mech is ONE of the reasons they nerfed the TC+Pulse combo) and for a good long time the classic 8R variant was our only variant.

The Saggitire in all its variants is a design for close combat, well suited to the brutal infighting of the Fedcom Civil War and the Jihad where it first bloodied itself.

With that out of the way let’s move onto the Variants:


SGT-8R - The Original variant of the Saggitire, and the soul variant we had for 10 years, is a close combat nightmare, packing twin large lasers, 5 Medium Pulse lasers a small pulse lasers, and a ER PPC for “token long range firepower” this firepower is on a fearsome package of 18 tons of armor with 3/5/3 movement with a XL fusion engine. The weapons setup is interesting, with both LPLs, paired MPLs and the SPL being arm mounted on “flippy arms” as well as 2 of the remaining 3 MPLs being rear mounted, the Saggitire actually has MORE close range firepower behind it then it does ahead of it. And with that kind of pulse laser firepower tied to a targeting computer (ohh right I forgot to mention that, yeah folks it has a targeting computer!) god help any Spider pilots who think hopping into your rear arc was a good idea… they’re going to regret not having an ejection seat!
As I mentioned beforehand, originally the Saggitire was designed when pulse laser targeting locations were doable, and the design was clearly intended to be a duelist, put in the hands of a skilled gunner who can buzz  saw through torsos. And the fluff clearly represents this, with the changes the Saggy is a little less effective as a duelist, but is a valuable mech for built in areas. Especially if you’re fighting a lot of fast and annoying light mechs. Able to completely remove the TMM penalty of many popular light jumpers. It may no longer be the “BUZZ SAW OF DOOM” that it was previously, but it still holds a useful role in the AFFS.

The second Variant is the

SGT-9D - First introduced in 3074, (OOCly in 2012’s RS: 3067 unabridged) during the Jihad, the Saggitire 9D takes a very differant approach from any other design in the series. Functioning as a command mech. The variant swaps out the Targeting computer for a C3 Master, dumps the LPLs and replaces them with twin LB10X Autocannons (arm mounted) the over all weapons load is 1 ER PPC, 2 LB 10Xs with 2 tons ammo each, 5 Medium lasers (of these 2 are arm mounted 2 are rear mounted and 1 fires to the front) and 1 small pulse laser. And a C3 Master computer. This is a very different animal. Much like the classic original variant it actually has more rear firepower then.  The LB10Xs combined with the ER PPC give this variant a considerably different range profile (especially considering the C3M computer) . I’ll admit I actually had been unaware of this variant until writing this article and I’m eager to give the variant a try. As I think it could be quite effective, able to lay down a barrage at range comparable to the classic Awesome. The Jump jets combined with the classic trait of “actually being able to lay heavier firepower behind it” also means that light mech headhunters won’t have an easy time with this command mech.



Up third is the Post Jihad Early Republic Era

SGT-10X- First introduced in 3084, the Sagittaire 10X is a classic example of “New Toy syndrome” as the RMW designers literally jammed every new technology they could find on the frame. The mech had its survivability increased by replacing the XL engine with a Light fusion engine, and then freed up space in the head and a spare extra ton by replacing the cockpit with a small cockpit. This allowed the mech space to mount triple  torso mounted Medium VSPLs, a head mounted MVSPL and a Light PPC in each arm. As well as 5 Improved Jump jets allowing it to jump far longer than any 95 tonner has any right. Of course it pays 14 tons for this extra two jump movement. This Sagittaire variant has the distinction of being the first of it’s kind available outside the Federated Suns (ok ok the Flivelt coalition has the earlier models, but let’s be honest they don’t count). I have some issues with this variant. I know some people really like it as a heavy jumper with Medium VSPLs. But it loses so much to do this, for one thing it NEEDS this jumpy mobility more as it can no longer divert ample fire power to it’s rear, as the light PPCs are the only arm mounted flippy weapons it has, and no weapons fire to the rear. This isn’t necessarily BAD but it does mean the mech will play differently from earlier variants. Playing more like an oversized grasshopper. I’m not a big fan of IJJs myself (as I said that’s 14 TONS used to gain 2 jump movement). Over all this is an interesting variant but I’m not a fan of it. It reeks of “new toy syndrome”. My personal headcanon is this is a testbed model that is mostly used as the “Export model”


Finally we reach what I would call the, for now, ultimate evolution of the Sagittaire, the

SGT-14D - This variant, introduced in the 3130s,  seems to combine a little bit of the last 3 variants, as well as technological breakthroughs made since the early days of the Republic, to produce a reasonably effective compromise. Maintaining the Light fusion engine and small cockpit  of the 10X, the 14D removes the over toned Improved Jump jets, dropping down to 3 standard ones, all of this is mated to a new chassis made of composite endo-steel.

So with that out of the mind the obvious question is “what does it shoot with?” the answer is. An interesting mix. The design drops the PPCs, for triple large lasers, a single ER works as the token distance weapon, while backed up by two of the federated suns new RE Large Lasers.

Added to this mix are 3 Medium VSPLs, a Medium X Pulse laser, and a Boosted C3 slave (the only real nod to the excellent SGT-9D). The mech is kept “cool” by 17 double heat sinks and a radical heat sink. Learning from the mistakes of the past, all but the ER LL is mounted in the arms, allowing the Sagittaire 14D to fire the bulk of its weapons to the rear, while avoiding wasting tonnage on rear weaponry. As Robinson fell to the Dracs during the 3140s, enough of this mech has been produced to be on the DC MUL, given it’s the ONLY variant on their MUL, I think it’s safe to say that by 3145 this was the only variant of Sagittaire in production. Overall I think it’s a solid one, that combines the best of every variant into one package. And makes.. Not all together bad use of the Fedsuns new toys in the Dark Ages.


So that’s the Saggitire and my thoughts on it, what are yours?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2022, 00:37:52 »
The Saggy is a ridiculously sized mini.  Definitely part of IWM's "Scale?  What's that?" phase.

For all this mech's vaunted ability, I haven't seen it in action much.  The main time was when one tried bum rushing a Thunder Hawk and caught a Gauss slug in the face for its trouble.
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BrianDavion

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2022, 00:45:19 »
Yeahit's defaintyl a design best used in built up terrain, in open fields I imagine it's going to get put down fast
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #3 on: 02 June 2022, 01:05:07 »
It was actually close enough that the T-Hawk took minimum range penalties on the shot.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #4 on: 02 June 2022, 01:13:53 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2022, 01:47:04 »
There's a C3 Master variant with 2 LBX and a ERPPC :drool: that actually sounds very decent
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BrianDavion

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2022, 02:11:59 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..

yeah but when those large lasers are large PULSE lasers it is :)
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #7 on: 02 June 2022, 02:18:56 »
Since regular large lasers reach out to 15 hexes, i wouldn't really call the one ERPPC its only "token" distance weapon..

Fifteen hexes is medium range at best and relying on it to do anything at long range will only hurt you.  They're also actually Large Pulse Lasers, not standard Large Lasers.

I am generally speaking not a fan of Sagittaires in urban environments.  The combination of 3/5/3 and pulse lasers with targeting computer is excellent accuracy, but it's accuracy that offsets the fundamental weakness of 3/5/3 in built up terrain.  Yes, you'll be able to zero out the penalties from jumping, but when you have to be jumping basically every turn to even be in range you're starting from a net zero, not a net positive.

In that way, the Sagittaire is something I would use more as an anvil than as an ambusher.  It's too large and slow to be able to reliably pull off more than one ambush, and too expensive in every meaning of the word to be only favorably engaging one unit in a given fight.  Ideally, it would be in use in a defensive role where the attacker needs to close.  It works excellently as a bodyguard for minimum range limited units, and with the flip arms and rear mounted weapons it doesn't even have to put in extra effort to get all guns on target.

The Sagittaire 10X is the best model available and it's not close.  Significant jump capability means putting VSPLs in short range for complete offset is more doable than the basic 8R even if it's starting from the same general net-zero, and you're putting up higher TMMs for increased durability to boot.  Switching from an XL to a Light Fusion also makes the design more survivable.  Medium VSPLs are hilariously good at cutting up targets at short ranges and its heat profile is significantly better than the 8R (+14 with the ER PPC forward while jumping unless I'm miscounting, -1 without for the 8R; +5 with all weapons jumping on the 10X).  Being almost 300 BV cheaper is just the icing on the cake.  I'd take this every day of the week and twice on Sundays over the 8R.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #8 on: 02 June 2022, 06:13:37 »
I am generally speaking not a fan of Sagittaires in urban environments.  The combination of 3/5/3 and pulse lasers with targeting computer is excellent accuracy, but it's accuracy that offsets the fundamental weakness of 3/5/3 in built up terrain.  Yes, you'll be able to zero out the penalties from jumping, but when you have to be jumping basically every turn to even be in range you're starting from a net zero, not a net positive.
A net zero is still better than starting on a +3 deficit.

And having the right pilot, it can actually start getting gains back.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #9 on: 02 June 2022, 06:50:57 »
Great article! I've never had the opportunity to use a Saggitaire, but with it coming out in plastic, I'm certainly hoping to get to. I've never found a close range armament to be an issue on the map sizes people actually play at, so I'm sure it will perform.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #10 on: 02 June 2022, 07:17:51 »
I didn't realize the Combine got the 14D, so that gets me a bit more interested in the plastic release.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #11 on: 02 June 2022, 09:34:45 »
One of those 'Mechs i always dismissed completely due to its looks. Not just the art, just bizarreish design in general. Unfortunately art redo isn't changing this, at least judging by ELH force pack render, still looks too weird for me to like it.

Stats don't really help. I don't mind pulse lasers, and the 8R is admirably focused design as opposed to a generalist, but i'm not really keen on the combination of mass, speed and short range. Prefer ranged assaults, not brawlers even though i'm otherwise inclined toward brawling.
9D is a C3 master, so i'll dismiss it as too specialized. (And i don't touch C3 for BV games.)
10X has improved jump jets so it doesn't matter what else it has, not touching it.
14D just makes me shrug. Doesn't look too bad on paper, some aesthetic issues aside (why not 4th MVSPL instead of X-pulse) but it doesn't strike to me as interesting enough to raise my opinion of the Sagittaire.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #12 on: 02 June 2022, 09:39:39 »
So that’s the Saggitire and my thoughts on it, what are yours?

Missing the down-graded Saggitaire from Jacob's Juggernauts which is found in . . . Wolf Hunters? and IIRC later referenced again with the merc unit in a Shrapnel story.

I have always wanted to like the Saggy but for the original you are talking about a mech loaded with pulse weapons that cannot get those weapons in use except in the most specialized situations.  It is unfortunately built for table top fights in a phonebook.  Unless I was fighting in the crowded center of a very old city, ancient dense woods, or very tight canyons the mech would not concern me on the battlefield.  Granted, in those situations, it would be terrifying for it's ability to rip into enemy mechs though it lacks a crit-seeker, something that should be assigned as it's wingman by doctrine.  Later ones get better, particularly the 9D being a very common sense C3M design.  The 10X is overloaded with MVSPL and unfortunately saddled with anemic light PPCs, even if it is more mobile.  The 14D still having a small cockpit is just sad, something that cannot avoid being brought to physical attack range should not have that sort of penalty.

Only time I have ever seen one used on table top was back under BV1 when the game was 2 mechs with just the BV of the mechs counted, the pilots then assigned using the Gunslinger rule.  I put a veteran Arctic Wolf toe to toe with a green Saggy pilot on the last turn of the game as a bravado move . . . the Arctic Wolf lit up the Saggy, survived it's return fire & the fire from it's team (well, half the mech did anyway), and remained standing when the giant fell.  To add insult to that injury, the Arctic Wolf pilot missed being kicked by a Stormcrow but managed to give the downed Saggy a good boot.

The Arctic Wolf pilot was voted the MVP for that game by the other players.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #13 on: 02 June 2022, 12:13:58 »
14D just makes me shrug. Doesn't look too bad on paper, some aesthetic issues aside (why not 4th MVSPL instead of X-pulse) but it doesn't strike to me as interesting enough to raise my opinion of the Sagittaire.

Space and Tonnage issues. there's no room to put another MVSPL on,
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #14 on: 02 June 2022, 12:16:56 »
I see the SGT-8R filling a similar role to a jumping version of the Atlas AS7-D, with the pulse lasers taking the role of the medium lasers, SRM launcher, and AC/20, and the ER PPC taking the role of the LRM, all with a TC and no ammo.  Only thing now is that it can't punch...  But it can jump!
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #15 on: 02 June 2022, 12:22:47 »
Before the 10X was a thing, I played in a worldwide event (I think) during the FedCom Civil war--4th Crucis Lancers and ComStar against a couple of Donegal Guards formations.  The Lancers CO was in a Sagittaire and by the time he was in range to meaningfully contribute, (thanks, pulse Lasers) the direction of the battle was already set.  That pretty much formed my opinion of the Sagittaire, and I've never fielded one in the 20 some odd years since then. 

Luckily, the Donegal CO was in a Fafnir and did herself in by falling repeatedly firing those Heavy Gauss Rifles.  So I guess you can say neither CO meaningfully contributed.   ;D

Also--I'm not crazy about mechs that look like they can't stand back up after they fall over.  Sagittaire and Stalker, I'm looking at you.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #16 on: 02 June 2022, 12:39:59 »
Ooo, marketing slogan . . .

"Saggitire . . . a wide body Stalker."
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #17 on: 02 June 2022, 13:07:26 »
Space and Tonnage issues. there's no room to put another MVSPL on,
Ditch the boosted slave and small cockpit, works out perfectly. Granted, the 'Mech ain't bad pointman for a C3 unit as it is, though i think small cockpit ain't a great idea for something that's gonna be in close combat often, piloting penalty is risky  there.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #18 on: 02 June 2022, 13:26:45 »
See I would have preferred the other way, 2 Med VSPL & 2 XPulse which gets you better chances to hit that their longer range with the freed up weight/crit letting you have a standard cockpit while being the spotter.  Let's you keep the C3B slave . . . honestly, with the resurrection of Zeta Battalion, it would be interesting to see if the Dragoons can stand up a C3B network- even a single lance!- with a -14D on point.  The design matches their doctrine so well- 'This End Toward Enemy.'

I understand the small cockpit for the MD mechs, it makes sense there . . . but in regular Inner Sphere production?  It is pretty much the definition of new toy syndrome.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #19 on: 02 June 2022, 18:15:26 »
I agree Colt, I'm not a fan of the Small cockpit, on the 10X and 14D it reaaaally felt like they wanted to just do it to slide a 2 crit item into the head. The 14D isn't bad but yeah the 10X feels like it has a HORRIABLE case of new toy syndrome.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #20 on: 02 June 2022, 20:06:22 »
Think we'll get a Clantech variant when the lance pack drops?
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #21 on: 02 June 2022, 21:51:27 »
Either that or some Kurita abomination with every kind of PPC on it
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #22 on: 02 June 2022, 22:42:08 »
Toss the jump jets, get some Snubs on it. Perfection(?)

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #23 on: 02 June 2022, 22:57:26 »
Unless Catalyst breaks formula, it'll be a WSWG configuration, so the jump jets will stick around.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #24 on: 02 June 2022, 23:13:03 »
Unless Catalyst breaks formula, it'll be a WSWG configuration, so the jump jets will stick around.

The showpiece stone rhino broke that pattern, although it's a bit of an exception.


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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #25 on: 02 June 2022, 23:15:17 »
I rather the Sagittaire keeps the Jump Jets as it's competing with the Banshee, Nightstar and Tenshi, gives it a little bit of a edge. Most likely be mixed tech like the Black Knight BL-18-KNT or the Marauder II MAD-10D.

The showpiece stone rhino broke that pattern, although it's a bit of an exception.
The Stone Rhino 7 may have been the WYSISYG variant as it has the same number of guns in the right locations + JJ.
« Last Edit: 02 June 2022, 23:21:32 by SteelRaven »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #26 on: 02 June 2022, 23:28:35 »
The showpiece was the original, but I think you mean the 8, not the 7, which had four guns on the torso instead of 3.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #27 on: 03 June 2022, 01:16:18 »
Think we'll get a Clantech variant when the lance pack drops?

Hard to say. we could also get a varient that leans into RE lasers in a big way
 
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #28 on: 03 June 2022, 01:19:52 »
The showpiece was the original, but I think you mean the 8, not the 7, which had four guns on the torso instead of 3.

I missed the 7 retained the small laser. Thought you where referring to the 8 for lack of Jump Jets, sorry.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #29 on: 03 June 2022, 13:44:38 »
I rather the Sagittaire keeps the Jump Jets as it's competing with the Banshee, Nightstar and Tenshi, gives it a little bit of a edge. Most likely be mixed tech like the Black Knight BL-18-KNT or the Marauder II MAD-10D.
Since the FedSuns is making Clanspec lasers and PPCs (ExoStar Pinnacle) I'd love to see a mix of Clan and Relasers.  Maybe Clan ERPPC, LargeRelasers, and ER Clan mediums.  Keep the JJ for flavor.  Keep the arms flippable. 

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #30 on: 03 June 2022, 13:57:03 »
I get that mixed tech makes sense in 3151, but I still hate it, as it means I can't take the mech to my table.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #31 on: 03 June 2022, 14:38:44 »
Why?  It is standard 'tech' for the timeframe.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #32 on: 03 June 2022, 14:44:58 »
There's always someone who thinks that any given technological advance in the game is just going too far.  I had a friend who thought that Light engines, Rotary autocannons, Heavy Gauss Rifles, and Stealth Armor were all "munchkin Fanpro Tech" despite the fact that they'd all debuted in the Field Manuals that FASA had published.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #33 on: 03 June 2022, 15:33:04 »
I cut my teeth with the Clans so I'm happy we are finally getting to the point where we won't need 2 IS Mechs for every Clan Mech
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #34 on: 03 June 2022, 15:39:41 »
Yeah, TRO 3055 was already out by the time I got into the game.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #35 on: 04 June 2022, 10:11:33 »
I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #36 on: 04 June 2022, 10:32:06 »
I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.

It's mentioned on Sarna.net at the least. it sounds like it's a level 1 refit of the Sag.

Sarna describes it as follows

"the BattleMech's XL Engine was swapped for a standard 285 Fusion, its double heat sinks had been swapped out for 32 standard heat sinks, and its targeting computer was removed. The 'Mech was armed with a Standard PPC in center torso, a Large Laser and two Medium Lasers are mounted in the right arm, the left arm has three Medium Lasers mounted on it. Lastly it had a rear-mounted Medium Laser on the head"

the mod works although it would require the loss of a ton of armor.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #37 on: 04 June 2022, 11:27:50 »
Yes, Jacob's Jugernauts which I mentioned earlier, in Wolf Hunters.  They make an appearance again when Anastasia sends Yulri's organization to collect them for her pack.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #38 on: 04 June 2022, 23:40:56 »
The overgrown pulse-boat mess that demonstrates that the best short-range weapon is a long-range weapon :)

In a grid layout city, this thing would be toast.  Even in the city/large town I currently live in, you can see farther down the vast majority of streets and avenues than even the AC-2 series can shoot.  Terrain topography, hello places like Deadwood, SD, might help it. 

And, given the pathetic ranges of IS pulse lasers, this is just bad.  Per public data, let's say that a city block in Manhattan is ~80x270 meters.  IS LPL maxes at 300 meters range.  That's right folks, if your enemy appears on the far side of the street on the long side of the block, better hope the PPC hits, because depending on which side of the street/road you are on, you might not get there with anything else.  No amount of pulse bonus is going to help if you can't get there from here. 

That all being said, I think that Apollo's Law wouldn't apply to this design.  That could be much uglier.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #39 on: 05 June 2022, 00:50:02 »
I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.


There is, the personal 'Mech of Col. Jerry Jamison of Jamison's Juggernauts. The description is thus;


"Lack of funds, not neglect, had reduced the Sagittaire from what it once had been. The rare and valuable - and difficult to maintain - Stalker targeting module had been traded away decades ago, during the nadir of his father's career. Also gone were the extended-range particle projector cannon and the eight state-of-the-art pulse lasers. His father had not left the massive BattleMech defenceless, of course. He had simply traded the high-ticket items for needed supplies, including more common, low-cost and easily maintained weapons. With its torso mounted PPC, large laser-medium laser pair in the right arm and trio of mediums in the left, the Sagittaire was still a machine to be reckoned with. The head's rear-facing medium laser discouraged attacks from behind as well. Shedding the heavy pulse lasers had freed up nearly ten tons of load capacity. Jerry's father had used it to swap out the too-vulnerable 285 XL engine for the tougher and more reliable standard version - keeping everything cool with thirty-two standard heat sinks. Perhaps it did have to get a little bit closer to hit - and hit a little more often to do the same damage - than it once had, but today his Sagittaire could stand up to fire that would have crippled it seventy years ago. And fire all weapons - while riding its HildCo jump jets - with no fear of overheating."
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #40 on: 05 June 2022, 13:24:39 »
I always love how the Eridani "Light" Horse end up with assault mechs for their commanders and now the upcoming Kickstarter with the Sagittarie..

As for the unit, I can see the 8R as a good choice for close range battles in locations like crowded city. Maps with lots of buildings,  base defense, heavy forests, jungle and the like. IS pulse lasers suffer from range issues in more open field combat unless they're mounted on faster moving units like the Anvil or the Nightsky. The C3 command variant is an excellent command lance and air defense unit, and fits in with Davion C3 doctrine of the time. As for the rest, I'm not super impressed by the attempts to increase survivability while focusing on VSPLs or Reengineered lasers as your main offensive battery. The fact that none of the variants mount X-Pulse or Large VSPls is a bit suspect in my opinion, but I get the demands of the time.

 A Dark Age mixed tech variant of the baze 8R Sagittaire that does a 1 for 1 IS to Clan swap on the weapons makeup would be horrifying. It would easily balance out with the RecGuide refits of the Black Knight, Marauder II, Marauder, the Lancelot, and the Flashman. 

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #41 on: 07 June 2022, 13:13:40 »
I always love how the Eridani "Light" Horse end up with assault mechs for their commanders and now the upcoming Kickstarter with the Sagittarie..

The ELH had assault elements in the 50th and 82nd Heavy Cavalry Batts going back to the 3025-era Merc’s Handbook.  Each had around 25 assaults and heavies, along with Von Luckners, Demolishers, Long Toms, and other heavy combat vehicle support.

And the three regimental commanders at that time drove an Atlas, Battlemaster, and Stalker. 

May or may not be reflective of SLDF Light Horse formations, but the precedents for ELH assaults in the late Succession Wars existed from the early days of BT.

In my mind, the bigger weirdness about the ELH TO&E was that they had no SLDF mechs (Mongoose, Crab, Black Knight, Highlander, etc.).  Obviously that was just an artifact of TRO 2750 coming out some years after the original Merc’s Handbook.  But it’s hard to explain in-universe why the ELH and other large, SLDF-descended units had not a single downgraded SLDF design left in their rosters.
« Last Edit: 07 June 2022, 20:49:25 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #42 on: 07 June 2022, 15:33:29 »
honestly not surprising. while the term 'light horse' originally referred to light cavalry or mounted infantry units, as technology developed IRL they tended to become a lot heavier, with most surviving units now being composed of IFV mounted infantry and MBT's (or occasionally, configured as helicopter infantry)

the terms cavalry, light horse, dragoon, etc IRL today tends to mostly just be used for units trained for quick deployment, rather than equipment choice.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #43 on: 07 June 2022, 19:43:58 »
It's mentioned on Sarna.net at the least. it sounds like it's a level 1 refit of the Sag.

Sarna describes it as follows

"the BattleMech's XL Engine was swapped for a standard 285 Fusion, its double heat sinks had been swapped out for 32 standard heat sinks, and its targeting computer was removed. The 'Mech was armed with a Standard PPC in center torso, a Large Laser and two Medium Lasers are mounted in the right arm, the left arm has three Medium Lasers mounted on it. Lastly it had a rear-mounted Medium Laser on the head"

the mod works although it would require the loss of a ton of armor.

I'm not sure where in the old forums, I asked the author Kevin Killiany if stats i recreated was correct and he said they were.
However, MUD has never acknowledged the Succession War tech custom.  It only reappeared again but it was back to the standard model SGT-8R version tech again in later novel sarna.net doesn't list where Anastasia Kerensky is bring back the Steel Wolves/Clan Wolf people she broke off to make Wolf Hunters.  I forget the novel. I remembered. Juggernauts joined them since half their crew were Wolves.
« Last Edit: 07 June 2022, 19:53:58 by Wrangler »
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #44 on: 07 June 2022, 19:46:47 »
If looks could kill, the SGT wouldnt need a TC  ;D

It was an interesting exploit of the rules when it first came out, but since the rules have moved on it leaves me thinking of more effective options ...

For example: SGT-10W

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« Last Edit: 08 June 2022, 10:43:31 by LastChanceCav »
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #45 on: 09 June 2022, 06:10:56 »
Personally, I would swap the LPLs of the 8R for Snubnose PPCs. Would also net you two more tons. I would add another med Pulse. AND switching them all to X Pulses, IF I want to keep it fully IS Tech.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #46 on: 09 June 2022, 23:06:25 »
Let me just put this here...

I have spoken.


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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #47 on: 09 June 2022, 23:42:07 »
Nice!
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #48 on: 10 June 2022, 09:00:04 »
You know the thing with the Saggy . . . I always wondered if it and the Men Shen had the same artist, though that depends on the Men Shen art.  They are both sloped arrowheads on legs with the point missing and gun pods as arms and IIRC came out in the same book.

Having seen what was done with the Saggy, I would love to see the revisit of the Men Shen even I am in the camp that feels not all art needs revisited.  Like the Arcas . . . love it as it is, I just think the mini's arms need fixing.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #49 on: 10 June 2022, 09:29:55 »
The Men Shen AKA Dustbuster came out in TRO 3060, the Saggy came out in 3067.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire (Updated for RecGuide 29)
« Reply #50 on: 03 March 2023, 18:04:24 »
So, it's been some time since I wrote this article, and We've now got a new varient in the form of the SGT-14R.
Fluffed as a new varient made by necessity as the Kuritians stripped the line of some of the high tech toys from the previous SGT-14D varient, and the result is a "back to basics" design utilizing clan lasers from the black Knight line to wonderful effect. Frankly I think the end result is so good the Kuritians may have done the Federated Suns a favor by forcing the redesign

The new varient using the endo composite frame and light engine as the basis, gone is the small cockpit from some of the later varients. weaponry wise it carries some impressive firepower, twin variable speed large pulse lasers, 3 clanspec ER Medium Lasers, 3 Clanspec Small pulse lasers (2 are set to the rear) and, as real treat, a clan spec ER PPC, all tied into a targeting computer and cooled by 17 clanspec double heat sinks. This mech ladies and gentlemen is a terrifying brute out to 15 hexes. and it only gets scarier the closer you get.

Rec Guide 29 says that since the Liberation of Robinson this mech has been flooding into the AFFS to rebuild lost units along the Combine border.
The MUL says this varient is exclusive to the FedSuns, sorry Dracs, you don't get this one.

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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #51 on: 04 March 2023, 13:27:57 »
Either that or some Kurita abomination with every kind of PPC on it
It can be done, I’ve played around with that sort of thing in Skunk Werks before.  HPPC in the torso, Snubbies and LPPC in the arms; etc.


I also did one a while back that converted all the pulse lasers to RELs which is…tougher if you want to maintain the exact same number of lasers, I think it ended up dropping the rear mounts because hey, flippable arms.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #52 on: 04 March 2023, 21:11:33 »
It does beg question. New Avalon's factories were stripped of it's engineers and equipment to build. 

Its possible Robinson was as well, with Saggitire being taken to Combine in some form.   I can't say I loved the newest variant when I read it stats. 
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #53 on: 05 March 2023, 14:52:04 »
It does beg question. New Avalon's factories were stripped of it's engineers and equipment to build. 

Its possible Robinson was as well, with Saggitire being taken to Combine in some form.   I can't say I loved the newest variant when I read it stats.

my gut feeling is "no". These are mechs too deeply associated with the fedsuns. my guess is they'll use the expterise to do several things.

1st: they'll take technology that was mostly in the hands of the fedsuns and further refine it, so expect to see RE Lasers become a "thing" on combine mechs.
2nd: Drac engineering tends to have shoddy quality, they may try to improve combine quality standards, and frankly I don't see this working ebcause nothing says quality like engineering teams kidnapped against their will.


but yeah my guess is that we're going to see a series of new combine mechs down the road that "borrow lessons" from Robinson and new Avalon. (and if there's any justice in the battletech universe these designs will be aweful)
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #54 on: 06 March 2023, 08:20:44 »
I think the difference between New Avalon and Robinson was that the Combine never expected to hold New Avalon it was at the end of their tongue.

You can see with their actions they stripped everything they could, started destructive mining etc.

Robinson on the other hand had a better chance of being held and being used to support the front lines so it made sense to invest in it

Add to thanks to the Republic Robinson fell far quicker than I think the Combine expected

Quote
but yeah my guess is that we're going to see a series of new combine mechs down the road that "borrow lessons" from Robinson and new Avalon. (and if there's any justice in the battletech universe these designs will be aweful)

If there's any justice the ilClan, Rasalhague Dominion and Raven Alliance will get their crap together and flattend the Combine
« Last Edit: 06 March 2023, 08:22:46 by Dragon Cat »
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire (Updated for RecGuide 29)
« Reply #55 on: 06 March 2023, 12:25:17 »
So, it's been some time since I wrote this article, and We've now got a new varient in the form of the SGT-14R.
Fluffed as a new varient made by necessity as the Kuritians stripped the line of some of the high tech toys from the previous SGT-14D varient, and the result is a "back to basics" design utilizing clan lasers from the black Knight line to wonderful effect. Frankly I think the end result is so good the Kuritians may have done the Federated Suns a favor by forcing the redesign

The new varient using the endo composite frame and light engine as the basis, gone is the small cockpit from some of the later varients. weaponry wise it carries some impressive firepower, twin variable speed large pulse lasers, 3 clanspec ER Medium Lasers, 3 Clanspec Small pulse lasers (2 are set to the rear) and, as real treat, a clan spec ER PPC, all tied into a targeting computer and cooled by 17 clanspec double heat sinks. This mech ladies and gentlemen is a terrifying brute out to 15 hexes. and it only gets scarier the closer you get.

Rec Guide 29 says that since the Liberation of Robinson this mech has been flooding into the AFFS to rebuild lost units along the Combine border.
The MUL says this varient is exclusive to the FedSuns, sorry Dracs, you don't get this one.

Thanks for the article!

The latest variant is not that huge of an advancement. And I am not demeaning the new mech, the original mech was a beast and improving it is hard. The good part is that it gets more range and stops being bad 11 hexes away. Now it is way more dangerous at range. The VSPL Large Lasers at close range get a -4 and can do things to light harrasser units. Bad Things. The death zone it creates is bigger now. Overall, it is good but it is more expensive in BV. Still a nasty bodyguard mech with now more tools to use.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #56 on: 06 March 2023, 14:00:15 »
Having a Light Engine and no Small Cockpit would be enough for me to use it by itself.  It's more expensive because it's better.
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Re: MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire
« Reply #57 on: 06 March 2023, 14:14:12 »
I think the difference between New Avalon and Robinson was that the Combine never expected to hold New Avalon it was at the end of their tongue.

You can see with their actions they stripped everything they could, started destructive mining etc.

Given the new Dervish they created, I'd have to disagree. That's a commitment of resources that only really makes sense, especially considering that it involves moving major industrial machinery - the production equipment for ballistic-reinforced armour and their own Clan-spec LRM launchers, neither of which as far as we know the FedSuns were making any progress on producing on their own - to New Avalon. Very much feels like a statement of intent; "We are here, and we intend to stay here." It happens to have been spectacularly badly wrong, but.


As for the new Sagittaire, I admit that while I'd personally prefer twin LReLs over the LVSPLs - that's a me thing, mainly - it is rather a beast.
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