Author Topic: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!  (Read 31619 times)

The Mighty ACHOO

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #120 on: 06 September 2012, 21:10:30 »
So there's Tamarind (&Abbey)


What about Orloff or Sirius?
I seem to remember somone was asking about Orloff...  :-\

Well, as of 3139 Tamarind is in Lyran space. Oops.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #121 on: 07 September 2012, 09:35:10 »
In the vein of the Claw-Hammer, Pein-Hammer, and Slammer, can I load a Hammer full of Thunders and call it a Thunder Hammer?

I'd call it a Troll-Hammer, given that mines at that size of launcher, are often laid purely for the annoyance factor. ^-^
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Ruud

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #122 on: 12 September 2012, 15:11:56 »
Yeah, i might like Orloff a bit...

I did not care for they joining Orient nor caving to Marik prior to that.  Orloff was always proud of their heritage.  A lot will need to change to bring "the old" Orloff back.  I have not read much of the Dark Ages or past that time, but i have hope that they will regain some of their former stature.
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ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #123 on: 08 February 2013, 14:00:28 »
*brushes the dust off of the furniture*

This parlour is still open, ladies and gentlemen. :)

Regarding Orloff: Maybe the time jump to 3250 will bring some Orloff flavour back. I definitely wouldn't mind. :)

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #124 on: 08 February 2013, 14:09:29 »
The jump is a long time to see what happens.  If they are still a rogue state headed by the Cameron-Jones will be interesting to see.

I'm a afraid my beloved Duchy may be gone by then, going by the Finish chapter of Surrender Your Dreams.  I'm hoping the Former Duchy of Andurien is just for Kwamashu and not the whole Duchy.  That is, unless, they merge with Canopus and become AndurCanopus.
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ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #125 on: 08 February 2013, 14:12:54 »
Wait, the Orloffs are not in league with Regulus but Oriente.

And I'm pretty sure Andurien will be around in one form or another; ready to again become the troublemaker we all used to love.  ::)

 :D

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #126 on: 08 February 2013, 14:16:50 »
Oh, right, wow this is turning into a bad day for me.  Yeah, poor Orloff.  Siding with Thomas Halas was the beginning of the end for their identity.  But, they emerged out of Oriente before.  They could again, right?  I mean, the Silverhawk Irregulars are back after all.
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ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #127 on: 08 February 2013, 14:34:18 »
I'm convinced that somehow the various midsize and even small provinces won't cease in favour of the bigger ones.

That would be a stark deviation of the original House Marik flavour.

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #128 on: 08 February 2013, 14:39:44 »
I wonder if the new voting structure will help to break up the old power blocks.  The independent planets made themselves heard in the final FWLP voting.  Maybe with the Wolves and Lyrans having broken into their territory it will foster a stronger sense of pan-League unity.  Of course, I also wonder if Tamarind will ever be won back.
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ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #129 on: 08 February 2013, 14:52:08 »
Especially your last thought thrills me in a special way, as you may have guessed. I really hope that Tamarind will be won back from the Lyrans. Considering that Tharkad is fighting for survival, I'm confident that the LCAF won't have to many reserves for the League front.

As for parliament: I think the old power blocks are gone. Regulus is not part of the new FWL; as is Andurien. And the various new provinces are to young to be counted into the Captain-General's camp (or in her opponents camp).

Molossian Dog IIC

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #130 on: 11 February 2013, 17:30:18 »
I wrote the half of a rather lengthy treatise about the fundamentals of the League´s problems, but I do not feel like posting it. And not in the MechWarrior Hall anyways, so I´ll just throw out some random thoughts and leave the pseudo-scientific derivations aside.

The old FWL state did not work. Not since 500 years.

Who held what right and who held what office didn´t matter. Centralization or decentralization did not matter as well. What powers the Captain-General or Parliament enjoyed did not matter.

In prosperous and stable times civil war could break out in a moment´s notice, just like in times of crisis.

So, why speculate and debate (and fight) about a state and its constitution that is -empirically- not viable?
It is not like there would exist a theoretically perfect constitution or a perfect balance of power between federal, provincial or planetary authority that would guarantee a continued acceptance and hereby a strong state.

Shouldn´t one instead accept the fact that there can be no permanently stable FWL-state and go on to ask the more important, pragmatic questions?

How can the (former) League defend itself against a universe of aggressive neighbours?
How can the (former) League´s members prosper, each in its own way?
How can the (former) League´s members protect their specific kind of freedom from outsiders as well as other (former) members?

Finally:
If there can be no state, what other kinds of organisations, agreements, alliances or commitees would be neccessary so that each former member lives in safety and thrives?

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #131 on: 12 February 2013, 09:03:18 »
I'd disagree.  The FWL was perfectly viable.  The office of the Captain-General was the primary point of conflict.  The civil wars started when people started to take the office for themselves.  I would have prefered a bicameral Parliament, but some real world places get by with a unicameral form.

Anywho.  How the former Marik-Stewart Commonwealth fares will be of some interest to me.  They were traditionally the bulwark of Marik support.  Now that the clans and Lyrans are sitting in some of their territory and the "legit" Marik line is defunct, will they shift their traditional support to the Halas-Hughes-Mariks?
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Molossian Dog IIC

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #132 on: 12 February 2013, 10:32:28 »
I'd disagree.  The FWL was perfectly viable.  ...

Evidently not.

Since its founding in 2271 there have been numerous conflicts within the state. Some of them open clashes, others more like a cold war. But even when there was no open civil war, I think you (in general, not you personally) can hardly deny that each power bloc within the state was sharpening its knives in expectation of another conflict.

... The office of the Captain-General was the primary point of conflict.  The civil wars started when people started to take the office for themselves.  ...

You may have a point when refering to the last civil war. And even in this context it wasn´t so unequivocal, as you describe it. There were, after all, the Blakists installing a puppet regime (Corinne Marik and Paul) by coup. And Thomas "Halas" had just been revealed as impostor. Technically there was no legitimate C-G before the provinces declared their independence.
As a sidenote: To my knowledge, the actual infighting started with the gas attack on the Knights and Corinne Marik being forced by her Blakist masters to send FWLM units to mop up what was left of the Knights.

--------

But I´d like to point to the whole 800 years of FWL exitsance. If we hope to find some universally applicable principles, some common denominator that runs through the FWL history, we cannot just look to recent events. And there have been numerous conflicts within the League out of a caleidoscopic multitude of reasons. Some led to open civil war, some not. But the struggle within the state was always a perceivable undercurrent.


There have been dynastic struggles, in this you are right. (The Sian-Mariks or even Anton´s revolt)
There have been clashes because of foreign policy. (For instance the Andurien War, who was about attacking the Cappies or not)
There have been struggles between parliament and the C-G. (Like when they cut the funding of successful military operations)
There have been conflicts because of domestic policy. (The virtual SAFE-police state of Gerald and Elise Marik comes to mind)
There have been numerous occasions when the provinces agitated versus the gouverment. (See Home Defense Act)

Conclusion: There was always bad blood. Noone ever trusted the other. The fracture lines were always there, be it between the different levels of the administration (federal/provincial/planetary) or along cultural lines. (Regulans vs. Mariks, Anduriens vs the rest etc)

--------

I will concede, that "who should be C-G?" seems like the important question, because many of the abovementioned conflicts ended with a different Marik being installed as C-G. (Or not.) But then there were few instances (out of my head I´d say just the Sian-Marik issue) where the personnel matter was the only point of contention.
Usually there was an already existing conflict of interests in general, before one faction presented a counter-candidate. (usually a Marik)

And my point is, that whoever tried to topple the state or the C-G had never found it diffcult to rally some support. That is because the abovementioned fracture lines were always there. All a rebel had to do was to stick a wedge into one of the fracture lines and push.
And mostly, he didn´t even have to push very hard.

ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #133 on: 12 February 2013, 10:56:34 »
First of all, it's good to have you back here Molossian Dog!  O0

And thank you very much for this fascinating discussion. I hope, our fellow Leaguers from all over the board (and all over the League) will participate.

[...] and the "legit" Marik line is defunct, [...]

IIRC, this is not true. There are still some "real" Mariks alive (Fontaine Marik and a cousin of Thaddeus who's name eludes me right now) and some we haven't seen at all (Kenyon Marik, the Graham-Mariks).

As for the discussion and Molossian Dogs suggestion I'd say that the constitution of the old FWL was flawed. The League was designed to be a true democracy uniting very distinctive provinces in a sort of confederacy. The original office of Captain-General was intended to be temporary and very curtailed in its powers. Only because the FWL had to give proof of its determination to fight permanently for its survival (and that democracies don't work in BT) let the FWL "evolve" in a hybrid constitution which couldn't survive.

And I'd say, that because of the importance of the office of Captain-General and that it wasn't constitutionally fixed but extended by emergency decrees, the vast majority of domestic conflicts turned on who became Captain-General and in which direction the not so fixed constitution would develope.

For the various provinces to thrive and maintain some sort of security for their citizens, there's only one way: cooperation. And that means some sort of federal level to regulate and mediate the interests of the various provinces and the federal level (the FWL as a whole).

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #134 on: 12 February 2013, 11:29:03 »
Evidently not.

Since its founding in 2271 there have been numerous conflicts within the state. Some of them open clashes, others more like a cold war. But even when there was no open civil war, I think you (in general, not you personally) can hardly deny that each power bloc within the state was sharpening its knives in expectation of another conflict.

I'd point out that every state in the Inner Sphere has had internal conflicts within that time period.  Heck, the Terran Hegemony was formed by a military coup.  The FWL continued to get along until outside influences messed with their politics.  That isn't an indication that their way of doing things didn't work.
 
Quote
You may have a point when refering to the last civil war. And even in this context it wasn´t so unequivocal, as you describe it. There were, after all, the Blakists installing a puppet regime (Corinne Marik and Paul) by coup. And Thomas "Halas" had just been revealed as impostor. Technically there was no legitimate C-G before the provinces declared their independence.

This is something of a gray area.  While Thomas had fled to Oriente and Corrine was queen of the moment the League was still functioning, if only on paper.  You may recall that FWLP disbanded by vote well after the 3 main CGs started their bids for power.  Heck, when Thomas was expossed he wanted to call FWLP  in to vote on the matter.  WoB had anticipated a riot.  Instead, they had to instigate things by gassing FWLP and the Knights.

If you consider the FWL and the office of CG seperate entities, the League itself, and even the divded FWLM continued to get along, in some cases in palces without being ordered, like Tamarind.  This to me indicates that despite a collapse in central leadership or even well functioning legislative process, the military was trying to protect vulnerable League territories at a time when provincial loyalties were all the rage.

Quote
As a sidenote: To my knowledge, the actual infighting started with the gas attack on the Knights and Corinne Marik being forced by her Blakist masters to send FWLM units to mop up what was left of the Knights.

You may be confussing things.  The 1st Knights were gas bombed.  Corrine took leadership in the coup instigated by Paul Marik.  The 2nd FWL took up post as Corrine's Praetorians.  When Thomas Halas sent the 2nd Knights to Atreus in order to rescue Cheryl Halas, then the Blakists and Corrine-loyal FWLM units chased them down and shelled them to death.

--------

Quote
But I´d like to point to the whole 800 years of FWL exitsance. If we hope to find some universally applicable principles, some common denominator that runs through the FWL history, we cannot just look to recent events. And there have been numerous conflicts within the League out of a caleidoscopic multitude of reasons. Some led to open civil war, some not. But the struggle within the state was always a perceivable undercurrent.

That's the story of every state in the Inner Sphere, to some degree.  In just the 31st century you have:

-2 Rebellions on Skye
-The St. Ives defection and reclaimation
-The Haseks siding with the Cappies
-The Sondovals launching unauthorized attacks against the DCMS
-Operation Sovergn Justice
-The Ronin War
-The FedCom Civil War
-The Andurien Crisis
-Janos Marik's Rebellion

Clearly, politics as usual in the 31st century were ugly for everyone.  Other than the conflicts of the 31st century, the FWL endured the Scourge of Death and the deadlock in FWLP over the Comstar War.  What other huge conflicts did the FWL suffer that make it the lame horse?

Quote
There have been dynastic struggles, in this you are right. (The Sian-Mariks or even Anton´s revolt)
There have been clashes because of foreign policy. (For instance the Andurien War, who was about attacking the Cappies or not)
There have been struggles between parliament and the C-G. (Like when they cut the funding of successful military operations)
There have been conflicts because of domestic policy. (The virtual SAFE-police state of Gerald and Elise Marik comes to mind)
There have been numerous occasions when the provinces agitated versus the gouverment. (See Home Defense Act)

The only two of these that are unique to the FWL are the Home Defense Act and Parliament denying war funds.  No other state would dream of giving their regional militaries a legal opt-out of participation in national defense.  Not even the DCMS, which is infamously divided by the loyalties of their Warlords is the same thing as Regulus recalling their forces for an imaginary crisis, or the Anduriens becoming a defacto training cadre with 1 regiment seeing action during the Anton Marik revolt.

Quote
Conclusion: There was always bad blood. Noone ever trusted the other. The fracture lines were always there, be it between the different levels of the administration (federal/provincial/planetary) or along cultural lines. (Regulans vs. Mariks, Anduriens vs the rest etc)

One of the things that makes the FWL the FWL, IMO is that they left the welding seems of their foundation.  The member states met as equals and stayed nebulous as time went on.  Compare this to the Confederation, which over time became more centralized.  One of the things that made the FWL fun and unique was that each state was allowed to voice their opposition.  If that makes it a noisy, quarrelsome place, so be it.  Democracy is messy, even when it is suborned to a defacto dynastic military dictatorship.

Quote
I will concede, that "who should be C-G?" seems like the important question, because many of the abovementioned conflicts ended with a different Marik being installed as C-G. (Or not.) But then there were few instances (out of my head I´d say just the Sian-Marik issue) where the personnel matter was the only point of contention.
Usually there was an already existing conflict of interests in general, before one faction presented a counter-candidate. (usually a Marik)

I guess my position is "meh".  I prefer the original idea behind the Captian-General, the Warden-General appointed by Parliament.  Someone appointed rather than inheriting or in Jessica's case, assuming the mantle of a for-life position is not to my liking.  But, that's BT.

Quote
And my point is, that whoever tried to topple the state or the C-G had never found it diffcult to rally some support. That is because the abovementioned fracture lines were always there. All a rebel had to do was to stick a wedge into one of the fracture lines and push.
And mostly, he didn´t even have to push very hard.

Ryan Steiner, Michael Hasek-Davion, the Von Rohrs and Katrina Steiner would agree.  Rebellions and coups are built on existing opposition to the current status quo.
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Molossian Dog IIC

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #135 on: 12 February 2013, 18:36:47 »
...
I guess my position is "meh".  I prefer the original idea behind the Captian-General, the Warden-General appointed by Parliament.  Someone appointed rather than inheriting or in Jessica's case, assuming the mantle of a for-life position is not to my liking.  But, that's BT.
...

Our positions may actually not be so mutually exclusive as it appears. You see, my original approach was, that the League would do well to remember its original frame, purpose and goals. A) security for every member B) prosperity for every member.

So, if (currently?) a common state is not possible, because of the bloody recent history and the factions within the former FWL remain irreconcilable (at the moment?), then why not pursue a mutual defense pact. And a successful defense needs a leader. That leader doesn´t need to be the head of state. Just like the office of the C-G was originally intended.

Basically the whole topic revolves around a simple idea.
You can´t agree upon who should rule? Then forget about that for the moment and take steps to ensure that there is something left to rule.

...
You may be confussing things.  The 1st Knights were gas bombed.  ... When Thomas Halas sent the 2nd Knights to Atreus in order to rescue Cheryl Halas, then the Blakists and Corrine-loyal FWLM units chased them down and shelled them to death.
...
You are right, I confused the 1st and 2nd Knights and the timeline.

... What other huge conflicts did the FWL suffer that make it the lame horse?
Too late here to answer that. Will check the sources again and come back to this.

... There are still some "real" Mariks alive (Fontaine Marik and a cousin of Thaddeus who's name eludes me right now) and some we haven't seen at all (Kenyon Marik, the Graham-Mariks).
...

I am not too familiar with the Dark Age, since I did not read any novels. Is Fontaine the son of Photon Marik?

...As for the discussion and Molossian Dogs suggestion I'd say that the constitution of the old FWL was flawed....

My position on this is, that the problem is not purely constitutional. Especially after the Jihad (and I remain unconvinced, that this tendency wasn´t there before) the FWL members (provinces and independents alike) outright fear each other. Everyone fears to be subjugated by another member or an office holder, even in the heyday of Thomas Halas´ supposedly successful reign.

You say yourself...
...
The League was designed to be a true democracy uniting very distinctive provinces in a sort of confederacy.
... [Emphasis added]
Many tried to make the FWL a centrally organized state, like the other Houses. It did not work. That is what I wanted to emphasize as I brought up old history. Any constitution, and if it would be the most just and even-handed you can imagine, that had such a centralized state as its goal, would not work out in the end.
 
Its very nature is that of a confederation. You are completely right on that.

And I tried to make the point, that one should give up trying to make it a monolithic state and instead think about how a confederation could work.


EDIT: After reading the posts of you two and my own again, I am actually convinced, that our thoughts on this matter might be very similar. The terms and definitions might be the problem. If it helps, I´d say you can exchange every "state" in my posts with "Successor State in the image of the FedSuns, the Combine or that stinky lime-green armpit of the universe called the Capellan Confederation". Confederation, ha!
« Last Edit: 12 February 2013, 18:44:25 by Molossian Dog IIC »

ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #136 on: 13 February 2013, 05:12:07 »
I am not too familiar with the Dark Age, since I did not read any novels. Is Fontaine the son of Photon Marik?

That's correct:

Therese Brett-Marik --> Photon (Brett-) Marik --> Fontaine Marik (no heirs)

Corinne Marik --> Anson Marik --> Kenyon Marik (only once mentioned)

Alys Rousset-Marik --> Thaddeus Marik III [adopted Jessica (Hughes-Halas-) Mariks children]

And another Marik who's name still eludes me.  :-\

Additionally, we don't know anything about the Graham-Mariks.

My position on this is, that the problem is not purely constitutional. Especially after the Jihad (and I remain unconvinced, that this tendency wasn´t there before) the FWL members (provinces and independents alike) outright fear each other. Everyone fears to be subjugated by another member or an office holder, even in the heyday of Thomas Halas´ supposedly successful reign.

To me, it seemed not so much about fear of subjugation of fellow member provinces, but outright greed for power. And here will divide perceptions: To me, the Marik Commonwealth, all things considered, was mostly interested in the wellbeing of the entire FWL (with the exception of Andurien, which got treated rather poorly, I admit). Same could be said for Oriente. But Regulus tried to gain power for power's sake nearly from the beginning. The Selaj and later the Cameron-Jones were not as much interested in the wellfare of other member provinces as they were in their own ascendance. But this is my, subjective point of view.

You say yourself...Many tried to make the FWL a centrally organized state, like the other Houses. It did not work. That is what I wanted to emphasize as I brought up old history. Any constitution, and if it would be the most just and even-handed you can imagine, that had such a centralized state as its goal, would not work out in the end.
 
Its very nature is that of a confederation. You are completely right on that.

And I tried to make the point, that one should give up trying to make it a monolithic state and instead think about how a confederation could work.

I, too, prefer a not so monolithic entity like the other Great Houses. A confederacy or federation would be fine with me, as long as there's a Marik at the helm (after all, it still is House Marik) and there is some kind of federal frame to keep the provinces together (especially militarily).

EDIT: After reading the posts of you two and my own again, I am actually convinced, that our thoughts on this matter might be very similar. The terms and definitions might be the problem. If it helps, I´d say you can exchange every "state" in my posts with "Successor State in the image of the FedSuns, the Combine or that stinky lime-green armpit of the universe called the Capellan Confederation". Confederation, ha!

I totally agree. :)

Molossian Dog IIC

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #137 on: 13 February 2013, 07:39:40 »
...
To me, it seemed not so much about fear of subjugation of fellow member provinces, but outright greed for power. And here will divide perceptions: To me, the Marik Commonwealth, all things considered, was mostly interested in the wellbeing of the entire FWL (with the exception of Andurien, which got treated rather poorly, I admit). Same could be said for Oriente. But Regulus tried to gain power for power's sake nearly from the beginning. The Selaj and later the Cameron-Jones were not as much interested in the wellfare of other member provinces as they were in their own ascendance. But this is my, subjective point of view.
...
You see, you actually confirm what I said above. There is no trust left between the factions. The Marik Commonwealth supporters suspect the Regulans to be power hungry fiends who just want the Captain-Generalcy for themselves. The Regulans in turn suspect the Commonwealthers to be nothing but power hungry fiends who aim to marginalize them and turn them into a mere vassal state. And then consider Andurien, who would rather lie with their hated enemies in the CapCon than trust in the benevolence of their former compatriots.

And this blame game could go on forever. That is my point.

----------

In regards to a hypothetical federation I´d recommend to uncouple the office of the Captain-General (who was actually nothing but a warlord) from any provincial power base. As long as people could point at him/her and claim he/she would just further the interests of his "own" province there will always be discontent and distrust.
Or do you think the Anduriens would ever accept a ruler of Regulus OR a noble from the commonwealth as leader of a united military? Or that the independent worlds would trust ANY of the provincial heads of state not to act in their own interest? I think not.

What each of the power blocs and -maybe most important of all- each of the unaligned planets could agree to is a military leader that can enter the stage as an honest broker. Someone unsullied from provincial bias.
Even the best, most honest individual with the best of intentions wouldn´t be able to believably counter such accusations if he would be the head of state of a province at the same time.

Therefore the future Captain-General must be independent.

----------

Mind you, personally I would not oppose such a man to be a Marik out of principle. That family has always had a knack for military matters. But it may not be one of the Marik families who rule a province.
I bet there are more than a dozen of largely inconsequential sidelines of that dynasty. Why not look for a warlord there?
« Last Edit: 13 February 2013, 07:41:27 by Molossian Dog IIC »

ArcaneRaven

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #138 on: 13 February 2013, 09:48:57 »
You see, you actually confirm what I said above. There is no trust left between the factions. The Marik Commonwealth supporters suspect the Regulans to be power hungry fiends who just want the Captain-Generalcy for themselves. The Regulans in turn suspect the Commonwealthers to be nothing but power hungry fiends who aim to marginalize them and turn them into a mere vassal state. And then consider Andurien, who would rather lie with their hated enemies in the CapCon than trust in the benevolence of their former compatriots.

And this blame game could go on forever. That is my point.

I agree with you, that there's a lot of distrust between the various provinces. We can see this in the DA as well. And you may be right, some Mariks maybe really tried to turn the confederate nature of the FWL into a more ordinary, unified Great House. (As did the Selaj and Cameron-Jones tried to get the office of Captain-General for themselves only out of hunger for power.)

Yes, maybe for an alternative to the current official plot in the DA there could be something else, were all factions within the League have to concede something. In the official plot line, neither faction was willing to do so; maybe with the exception of Tamarind-Abbey.

What each of the power blocs and -maybe most important of all- each of the unaligned planets could agree to is a military leader that can enter the stage as an honest broker. Someone unsullied from provincial bias.
Even the best, most honest individual with the best of intentions wouldn´t be able to believably counter such accusations if he would be the head of state of a province at the same time.

Therefore the future Captain-General must be independent.

I can see what you want. And it's most honourful. But I doubt, that it could work.

The very first Captain-Generals were mere puppets to the whims of parliament. They couldn't make a single decision without asking for permission. Only after some serrious defeats the CG's got more and more power; ultimately raising them above parliament. Ironically, this increased their effectiveness as well.

Therefore, to be effective in office, any future Captain-General needs to be able to make quick decisions regarding the FWL as a whole and subsequently the member provinces. I do not mind if the office is somehow accountable to the provinces or some sort of federal government. But he or she should be able to pull federal (and maybe even provincial) troops from one border of the FWL to another.

And regarding provincial bias: As long as the CG doesn't hail from a single planet "province" but a bigger one, he or she will always meet a certain level of distrust. *shrugs*

And by the way: If House Marik wants to keep her status as a Great House, we can't turn this too much into a loose federation.

Mind you, personally I would not oppose such a man to be a Marik out of principle. That family has always had a knack for military matters. But it may not be one of the Marik families who rule a province.
I bet there are more than a dozen of largely inconsequential sidelines of that dynasty. Why not look for a warlord there?

Again, this honours you. But the majority of the other Regulans and Anduriens won't agree with you, I'm afraid.  :-\

False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #139 on: 20 March 2013, 14:44:11 »
And another Marik who's name still eludes me.  :-\

Frederick Marik, Thadeus's brother.

You also forgot Gisele Marik, Corinne's daughter and Anson's mother.


Again, this honours you. But the majority of the other Regulans and Anduriens won't agree with you, I'm afraid.  :-\

Not just them.  The prefacing statement to FWLP's disbandment was the promise of democracy and the actuality of dictatorship.  I don't have anything against the idea of a Marik being the Captain-General, just the idea that it has to be a Marik.  Let's face it, this is Battletech and the interuptions in the dynastic rule of all houses was a historical footnote.  The FWL is not going to be headed by a Cameron-Jones anytime soon.  If it was, they'd have to come up with a new slang term for people from the League.  As it stands now, "Mariks" are the catch all term.  Still, it is the trappings of for-life, hereditary title and sweeping executive powers that annoy me.  Thomas Marik was effective, but for all the wrong reasons.  Seeing the League succeed without easy FWLP concensous or "make it so" style Captain-Generals would be a welcomed change.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #140 on: 18 April 2013, 19:29:27 »
And you may be right, some Mariks maybe really tried to turn the confederate nature of the FWL into a more ordinary, unified Great House. (As did the Selaj and Cameron-Jones tried to get the office of Captain-General for themselves only out of hunger for power.)

There is no way to judge the actions of Cameron-Jones had he assumed the office. Any attempt to smacks of propaganda and bias.
We'll never know how he would have ruled had he been C-G.
(Hard to imagine how he could have been more damaging than Tommy/Master)

The fact that he considered Thomas to be an inept, self-serving traitor with strange delusional beliefs should be enough justification to remove him, regardless.
The province of Regulus has long championed provincial rights, so could not easily jettison those beliefs to have a Thomas-style dictatorship.


]The very first Captain-Generals were mere puppets to the whims of parliament. They couldn't make a single decision without asking for permission. Only after some serrious defeats the CG's got more and more power; ultimately raising them above parliament. Ironically, this increased their effectiveness as well.

Therefore, to be effective in office, any future Captain-General needs to be able to make quick decisions regarding the FWL as a whole and subsequently the member provinces. I do not mind if the office is somehow accountable to the provinces or some sort of federal government. But he or she should be able to pull federal (and maybe even provincial) troops from one border of the FWL to another.

Why?
So that they can initiate another grand failure like "Killing Stroke?"
Or to withdraw defenders for opposition provinces so that they are invaded and occupied? (as has been done many times)
Or so that the forces from provinces that the C-G has a political disagreement with can be abandonded on border worlds and denied supply & support?

Provinces that have valuable & vulnerable worlds near the border raise provincial forces WITH THEIR OWN FUNDS to protect those worlds, so why should they be stripped of their defence?
EVERY FWL world contributes a % of its GDP to Parliament to raise an army, so if the C-G & Parliament need a larger army, raise the tax a couple fractions of a point.
Or perhaps just start spending FWL taxes on ACTUAL FWL units instead of siphoning it off to terrorists & foreign powers.  >:(

The problem is that any perceived inaction hasn't done major significant damage to the FWL, while the abuses of power that you propose should be given to the Marik C-G have crippled and ultimately destroyed the FWL (as it was known)  :(

The powers of a dictator have allowed the Marik family have enabled the actions that seriously damaged the FWL, mainly due to the Marik family civil wars that break out at least once every century.
(Marik Civil war, Anton's rebellion, Duncan/Duggan's scheming that ended Janos's tenure.

To try to repeat a system that was obviously broken is just madness.  ::)

[/rant]
« Last Edit: 18 April 2013, 19:32:02 by Lord Cameron »
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False Son

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #141 on: 19 April 2013, 07:52:18 »
Why?
So that they can initiate another grand failure like "Killing Stroke?"
Or to withdraw defenders for opposition provinces so that they are invaded and occupied? (as has been done many times)
Or so that the forces from provinces that the C-G has a political disagreement with can be abandonded on border worlds and denied supply & support?

The Comstar War is the ultimate example of a Captain-General having too much control over state afairs.  Thankfully, FWLP shut that effort down.  The Home Defense Act was just as bad for the opposite reason.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #142 on: 19 April 2013, 14:04:17 »
The Comstar War is the ultimate example of a Captain-General having too much control over state afairs.  Thankfully, FWLP shut that effort down.

But now it is proposed that one man be given that ultimate power again WITHOUT any checks on his (her) power?

The Home Defense Act was just as bad for the opposite reason.

And yet, nobody can cite any specific example when it did harm?

« Last Edit: 19 April 2013, 14:06:27 by Lord Cameron »
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #143 on: 16 May 2013, 17:46:00 »
The different groups in the FWL might indeed fear, distrust, and dislike some of the other groups.  But in the BT world, worse has happened and has been put aside.  My guess would be that the fear of an outside force dominating them would be a stronger motivator than the fear of an inside force dominating them.

I would actually find it refreshing if one of the major houses was actually not a dynasty.  To have all these different peoples and planets and to have 95% of them fall under one of various imperial, royal, or other dynastic line... strange to me.  For the FWL to continually wrestle with the amount of control the ruling family/leadership has makes it unique.  Other factions have internal strife too, but most are suppressed and not allow to play out quasi-democratically.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #144 on: 17 May 2013, 10:08:39 »
I would actually find it refreshing if one of the major houses was actually not a dynasty.  To have all these different peoples and planets and to have 95% of them fall under one of various imperial, royal, or other dynastic line... strange to me.  For the FWL to continually wrestle with the amount of control the ruling family/leadership has makes it unique.  Other factions have internal strife too, but most are suppressed and not allow to play out quasi-democratically.

Well, it was pretty much the way of all human civilization for most of human history, until the demise of the great European empires last century.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #145 on: 17 May 2013, 10:25:53 »
Indeed.  But with the BT world being set in the 31st-32nd centuries, one would think that not everything would have regressed.  There should be new forms of governing etc.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #146 on: 17 May 2013, 10:51:08 »
But now it is proposed that one man be given that ultimate power again WITHOUT any checks on his (her) power?

Also a bad idea.  Tommy Marik had almost complete control and it engendered some resentment.

Quote
And yet, nobody can cite any specific example when it did harm?

Killing Stroke is kind of complicated.  While the provinces yanked their forces and sabotaged the effort, it was still the C-G that launched the op.  He should have realized the understrengthed assault wasn't going to work.  He wasn't persuading Parliament and should have called the whole thing off.

Andurien was noted in the original housebook as using the HDA as a means of denying the Defenders of Andurien for so long they had barely fought in any conflicts other than the Anton Marik Revolt.  Regulus was also using the HDA to sideline troops for political reasons.  No disasters to speak of there, but a major hurdle to commanding a unified FWLM.

I would actually find it refreshing if one of the major houses was actually not a dynasty.  To have all these different peoples and planets and to have 95% of them fall under one of various imperial, royal, or other dynastic line... strange to me.  For the FWL to continually wrestle with the amount of control the ruling family/leadership has makes it unique.  Other factions have internal strife too, but most are suppressed and not allow to play out quasi-democratically.

What makes the FWL so unique is that even though the Marik clan is the defacto head of state, there's still plenty of power invested in FWLP.  The Mariks occupy what is essentially an emergency military dictatorship in a state of emergency that has lasted since the Age of War.  Through political manuevering the Mariks have managed to hold on.  But, even as the SL was about to be formed, Albert Marik had to make sure that the peace to follow wouldn't oust his family from power.  Very cool stuff.  I've always held that the FWL's internal storyline is the most interesting in BT.  It always had the bravery to do things the "wrong" way.
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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #147 on: 18 May 2013, 05:44:02 »
The latest TRO 3145 for the Crapellans mention the 1st Orloff Grenadiers being active! And they got some shiny Mechs from the CCAF.  O0

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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #148 on: 18 May 2013, 09:03:28 »
And, per ER 3145, the sort of reborn Free Worlds League has sort of a big problem.


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Re: FWL Parlour - enjoy yourself!
« Reply #149 on: 18 May 2013, 10:11:30 »
I've got it from the very first day. And I read about the Lyran/Wolf incursion even years before all from the novels.

Right now, the Wolfs are not a FWL problem, but more a Lyran one.  ;)

 

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