Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom

[Jaim Magnus]

I've been assuming it can. The only quirk it has is low mounted arms.

[Ghaz]

All ‘Mechs can torso twist barring any special rules (note tha the ‘No Torso Twist’ quirk was removed from the game via errata).

[Known Glitch]

All ‘Mechs can torso twist barring any special rules (note tha the ‘No Torso Twist’ quirk was removed from the game via errata).

I've been assuming it can. The only quirk it has is low mounted arms.

Kewl.  Thank you both for replying!

[worktroll]

Greetings, fellow Clanners!

As part of my plan to build units across factions & eras, I qm looking to use up some of my mini stockpile and do a Clan Snow Raven unit in the Early Republic era - or to be more specific, a Raven Alliance unit.

I am looking at Delta Garrison Galaxy (a paintscheme I'm comfortable approaching). I plan to do a Trinary of 'Mechs plus a Binary of battle armour (including a Star of Sylphs). While I could do this with all Clan designs, I am interested in including some of the Inner Sphere designs available to the Alliance, according to the MUL for the Alliance for that era. As I only have one ASF mini (a lead Corsair), I do not plan to include aerospace assets at this time.

Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets? Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?

For example, I have a Dire Wolf, a Kingfisher, and a Longbow that look like they would play well together, possibly with a Rifleman IIC from the Clans KS. Likely to happen in a single Star?

I can share the list of minis I have in stock for this, if people are interested.

Thanks in advance!

[Natasha Kerensky]

Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets?

I’d say definitely for the Ravens and absolutely for Delta.  Characterized as scavengers, the Ravens are supposed to be the least wasteful Clan, so if a touman is going to field Spheroid tech, it’s going to be the Ravens.  And if any galaxy in the Raven touman is going to field Spheroid tech, it’s going to be a garrison galaxy, and that’s Delta.

Depending on timeframe, you may want to use the Clantech versions of Spheroid designs that the Ravens are known for.  I’m thinking Stinger IIC, Merlin C, Charger C, etc.  There’s also the old Invasion Era Cs and their descendants:  Warhammer C, Warhammer C2, Thunderbolt C, Shadow Hawk C, etc.  These can give you a lot of Spheroid and salvage flavor without giving up the Clantech edge.

Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?

I would also assume this is timeframe dependent. 

Immediately after the Ravens escaped the Homeworlds and a savaging by the Star Adders?  They’re probably throwing trinaries and stars together any way they can without regard for mixing omnimechs with standard battlemechs or for mixing tech bases.

Decades later after they’ve established themselves in the Outwords and converted Alliance factories to Clantech?  They’re less likely to mix tech bases and standard/Omni in the same unit, simply because they have the time and resources to straighten any needlessly complex logistics.  You could argue it might still happen in the lowest ranked units that are the last to receive new units like Delta, but by the ilClan Era, the touman would also have had ~60+ years to recover.

Hope this helps.

[worktroll]

Thanks for a well-reasoned response! As the unit will be set in the very early days of the Alliance, the mix of tech types would be expectable.

The only reason I'm not looking at more IS "C" designs, is limiting the unit to a Trinary, not a Cluster ;)

[Cannonshop]

Alright, don't kill me now, this is something of weird question.

The Ravens reactivated their mothball fleet, with what?

The OWA has no industrial base, and most of the Snow Raven industrial base got ripped or spaced by the Snake Clans.  Their one, lone shipyard got the Word-of-Blake sponsored makeover, and nobody's been building anything.  They didn't integrate the economy in their territory, so no industrial development there...

Warships are incredibly expensive machines and even the ammunition is complex and expensive to build, never mind the armor plates you're not going to be able to make, transport, or mount on expedition.

and structure?  yeah, they don't have the ability to make that either.

This doesn't even touch on the thousands of kilometers of piping, wiring, data runs, and auxiliary power plants needed to bring a warship up to speed (think "Your heat-sink stat" as explained away via power distribution in some of the canon...)

So...where did they get the stuff to bring those ships up to operating capability, and where are they going to get the spare parts and ammunition to keep them in operation?

It's not like there's even a naval stores location they can raid-nobody else has that stuff either.  (eh, well, maybe the Diamon-I mean Sea Foxes might have some...)

just a little thing niggliung at the back of my mind.

[Maingunnery]

Alright, don't kill me now, this is something of weird question.

The Ravens reactivated their mothball fleet, with what?

We had this discussion before concerning jumpShip production, and yes they do have industry.

[Generic Clanner 24601]

Greetings, fellow Clanners!

As part of my plan to build units across factions & eras, I qm looking to use up some of my mini stockpile and do a Clan Snow Raven unit in the Early Republic era - or to be more specific, a Raven Alliance unit.

I am looking at Delta Garrison Galaxy (a paintscheme I'm comfortable approaching). I plan to do a Trinary of 'Mechs plus a Binary of battle armour (including a Star of Sylphs). While I could do this with all Clan designs, I am interested in including some of the Inner Sphere designs available to the Alliance, according to the MUL for the Alliance for that era. As I only have one ASF mini (a lead Corsair), I do not plan to include aerospace assets at this time.

Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets? Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?

For example, I have a Dire Wolf, a Kingfisher, and a Longbow that look like they would play well together, possibly with a Rifleman IIC from the Clans KS. Likely to happen in a single Star?

I can share the list of minis I have in stock for this, if people are interested.

Thanks in advance!

In the Recognition Guide 8, under the Devil blurb, it is mentioned that the Raven prejudices against non-Omnimechs has largely dissipated. So, at least Battlemechs and Omnimechs wouldn't be unusual to see in the same unit. Though there is no mention about if their view of Inner Sphere mechs has changed as well.

[Cannonshop]

We had this discussion before concerning jumpShip production, and yes they do have industry.

Industry requires resources, resources in turn require resource extraction, resource prospecting, etc. etc.  etc., it also requires skilled labor in large amounts, especially for something like a Warship (that takes the GDP of several major worlds to construct per the devs)...and the OWA doesn't have that kind of GDP-and neither do the Snow Ravens.

They didn't integrate their economy which means the Snow Ravens have been running "Just in time Production" with no slack (Clan Economics doesn't produce surpluses by DESIGN), so there's no slack or convertible industries to keep their warships in fighting trim.

you feel me here??  They mothballed those boats because they couldn't maintain them, and the Yard's a mess-they can't replace one if they lose it, unless Quatre Belle's been fully restored and everyone's gotten a hell of a lot more efficient at mining and processing...which would require, playing the game of numbers, the Ravens to actually participate in the OWA economy-which it's been declared they don't.

Are they buying from the Diamond Sharks?  Using up their savings?  the map doesn't add any reclaimed colonies so they're not expanding that way.

I have this dreadful feeling Sterling McKenna's making a tactical choice that is a strategic blunder here by rolling out a fleet she really can't afford to keep running.

[Maingunnery]

Industry requires resources, resources in turn require resource extraction, resource prospecting, etc. etc.  etc., it also requires skilled labor in large amounts, especially for something like a Warship (that takes the GDP of several major worlds to construct per the devs)...and the OWA doesn't have that kind of GDP-and neither do the Snow Ravens.

They didn't integrate their economy which means the Snow Ravens have been running "Just in time Production" with no slack (Clan Economics doesn't produce surpluses by DESIGN), so there's no slack or convertible industries to keep their warships in fighting trim.

you feel me here??  They mothballed those boats because they couldn't maintain them, and the Yard's a mess-they can't replace one if they lose it, unless Quatre Belle's been fully restored and everyone's gotten a hell of a lot more efficient at mining and processing...which would require, playing the game of numbers, the Ravens to actually participate in the OWA economy

Their industry has been producing widely for decades (yes even JumpShips), that chain of assumptions has no weight to it, as the outputs of their economy already indicate a pretty good recovery.

-which it's been declared they don't.

Source?

[tassa_kay]

Source?

FM:3145. Cannonshop’s assumptions are actually built on established facts here. The Ravens’ reactivation of their fleet (with all of their attendant DropShips and an ASF force the size of the rest of their touman AND the AMC combined) has placed a severe strain on the Alliance’s economy. They’ve also been unable to revitalize or grow their touman because of the cost of reactivating their fleet. They also aren’t able to pay the Outworlds corporations to do the needed work to help because they can’t secure the funds. Also, large sections of the Quatre Belle and Mitchella shipyards were mothballed because the locals simply can’t afford to do business with the Ravens. This is all directly stated in FM:3145.

[Maingunnery]

FM:3145. Cannonshop’s assumptions are actually built on established facts here. The Ravens’ reactivation of their fleet (with all of their attendant DropShips and an ASF force the size of the rest of their touman AND the AMC combined) has placed a severe strain on the Alliance’s economy. They’ve also been unable to revitalize or grow their touman because of the cost of reactivating their fleet. They also aren’t able to pay the Outworlds corporations to do the needed work to help because they can’t secure the funds. Also, large sections of the Quatre Belle and Mitchella shipyards were mothballed because the locals simply can’t afford to do business with the Ravens. This is all directly stated in FM:3145.

Well the only way that makes sense is a complete and utter incompetence of the Merchant Caste. The infrastructure is all there and they seem unable to sell the most desired products of the era.

[Minemech]

 The Outworlds Alliance was never an industrial power. You just might find more heavy industry on individual systems within a random Successor State during the 3rd than the entirety of the Alliance at its height.

[Maingunnery]

The Outworlds Alliance was never an industrial power. You just might find more heavy industry on individual systems within a random Successor State during the 3rd than the entirety of the Alliance at its height.

That literally does not actually matter, the text indicates that the various industries were running just fine before, however the problem arose after local demand was mostly met and they didn't sufficiently scale up exports.

[tassa_kay]

Well the only way that makes sense is a complete and utter incompetence of the Merchant Caste. The infrastructure is all there and they seem unable to sell the most desired products of the era.

What most desired products? In the Pax Republica, there was a pretty sharp drawdown of military spending across the Inner Sphere (even in the Clans, per “Flight of the Falcon”), and the Alliance doesn’t really have that much else to offer. And the fact that the Raven and Outworlds economies never merged certainly didn’t help matters much, either. Then there’s the fact that the Ravens’ presence certainly hasn’t helped relations with their neighbors (especially the Combine), and the OWA relied on their neutrality for their economy vis a vis those neighbors. Makes perfect sense to me that the Alliance economy faltered in such a climate, and why they’re struggling just to keep up now.

[Maingunnery]

What most desired products? In the Pax Republica, there was a pretty sharp drawdown of military spending across the Inner Sphere (even in the Clans, per “Flight of the Falcon”), and the Alliance doesn’t really have that much else to offer. And the fact that the Raven and Outworlds economies never merged certainly didn’t help matters much, either. Then there’s the fact that the Ravens’ presence certainly hasn’t helped relations with their neighbors (especially the Combine), and the OWA relied on their neutrality for their economy vis a vis those neighbors. Makes perfect sense to me that the Alliance economy faltered in such a climate, and why they’re struggling just to keep up now.

Has there ever been a lack of demand for JumpShip or DropShips during that whole time? No, in fact demand should have skyrocketed after the blackout. Also the DC is not that important just look at the export list of the Gossamer VTOL, plenty of others that are willing to buy. The issue is likely: what was the RA willing to sell?

[Minemech]

That literally does not actually matter, the text indicates that the various industries were running just fine before, however the problem arose after local demand was mostly met and they didn't sufficiently scale up exports.

Local demand is not really a thing for them. There is only one system that has anything resembling industrialization while the rest export raw materials and food. Industry is meant to serve agriculture and mining, not build from it. There were a few stray weapons manufacturers, but they were exceptional exceptions. 

[tassa_kay]

Has there ever been a lack of demand for JumpShip or DropShips during that whole time? No, in fact demand should have skyrocketed after the blackout.

And again, per FM:3145, their shipyards were largely mothballed during the post-Jihad era and were only getting by on government subsidies. They’re still struggling to catch up, and the Ravens are prioritizing the reactivation of their fleet over everything else. Demand doesn’t matter when the supply isn’t there.

Also the DC is not that important just look at the export list of the Gossamer VTOL, plenty of others that are willing to buy. The issue is likely: what was the RA willing to sell?

The Combine is very important to the Outworlds economy and always has been; it’s the primary reason why the Combine hadn’t conquered them (before the Ravens showed up). The Ravens have been consistently belligerent towards the Combine, and since they’re the ones in charge now, it makes sense to me that the Alliance economy has suffered as a result.

As for the Gossamer, it wasn’t built for export; the Foxes acquired the design from the Ravens (on the condition they don’t sell to the Combine) and they’re the ones making money from its sales. We’ve only really seen the Ravens stepping up their exports in recent years (like the Blood Asp in the RecGuides), and it’s not like that’s a magical overnight solution to their economic woes, especially given the fact that, again, due to their separate economies, the Ravens haven’t been able to pay the Outworlds corporations for their own demands.

[Maingunnery]

And again, their shipyards were largely mothballed during the post-Jihad era, and were only getting by on government subsidies. They’re still struggling to catch up.

Those shipyards had been brought up to a state in which they could manufacture JumpShips, the only way I could see them not being profitable if there is an export ban.

The Combine is very important to the Outworlds economy and always has been; it’s the primary reason why the Combine hadn’t conquered them (before the Ravens showed up).

Then what is normally traded then?

As for the Gossamer, it wasn’t built for export; the Foxes acquired the design from the Ravens (on the condition they don’t sell to the Combine) and they’re the ones making money from its sales.

The Foxes do not get it for free:
" The Raven merchant caste saw enough potential in the Gossamer to broker an export agreement with Clan Sea Fox, leaving the
Alliance to produce the Gossamer and the Foxes to distribute it. "

[tassa_kay]

Those shipyards had been brought up to a state in which they could manufacture JumpShips

Yes… and then those yards were largely mothballed.

Then what is normally traded then?

The biggest example: aerospace fighters. UOC benefited greatly from its sales to the Combine. Obviously that’s not happening anymore with the Ravens in charge.

The Foxes do not get it for free:
" The Raven merchant caste saw enough potential in the Gossamer to broker an export agreement with Clan Sea Fox, leaving the
Alliance to produce the Gossamer and the Foxes to distribute it. "

Gossamer sales aren’t going to be nearly enough to keep the Alliance economy afloat, much less help it actually grow.

[Maingunnery]

Yes… and then those yards were largely mothballed.

Which does not make any economic sense, unless there was an export ban on certain items. Because even then the demand for new JS was very high and after the Blackout that only went up.

The biggest example: aerospace fighters. Obviously that’s not happening anymore with the Ravens in charge.

Plenty of other customers. The DC was only just one of many possible trading partners.

Gossamer sales aren’t going to be nearly enough to keep the Alliance economy afloat, much less help it actually grow.

I never claimed that, please review earlier posts.

[Gribbly]

There's no justification for the Raven's having any particular industrial problems at this point outside of unimaginative writing and reverse plot armour.

The Clan homeworlds had a population of around 1.2 billion in 3060, inhabiting hostile worlds with sparse natural resources. The Ravens have been in the Outworlds Alliance for eighty years, which has a population over four hundred million and a treasure trove of mineral wealth and rural agrarian worlds. Not to mention the spinward adjacent region three times the size filled with previously colonised worlds.

If we're expected to swallow the Clans' Golden Century taking place in impoverished hovels after the devastation of the Pentagon War, Second Exodus and then Klondike, then the Ravens shouldn't just be weak scavengers in 3152. Compared with Clan Wolf repeatedly being destroyed then immediately growing back to 'normal' it's laughable.

[tassa_kay]

Which does not make any economic sense, unless there was an export ban on certain items. Because even then the demand for new JS was very high and after the Blackout that only went up.

Whether or not it makes sense to you isn’t really relevant. The fact remains that this is all, in fact, canon.

Plenty of other customers. The DC was only just one of many possible trading partners.

Hypothetical and irrelevant besides. There’s no indication that the Alliance ever sought out a replacement trading partner.

I never claimed that, please review earlier posts.

I never said you did, please review earlier posts.

[tassa_kay]

There's no justification for the Raven's having any particular industrial problems at this point outside of unimaginative writing and reverse plot armour.

Sure there is: the Outworlders aren’t a part of their Clan and aren’t taking payment in Clan work credits, and the Ravens haven’t made any real effort to integrate their economies and can’t simply order the Outworlders to do the work because it risks their social cohesion.

The writing has highlighted on numerous occasions that the union of the Snow Ravens and the Outworlds, two extremely different societies, has been far from perfect, and yet we still see shocked-pikachu-face when there are actual consequences of that fact.

I swear, any time a faction doesn’t behave with 100% optimal efficiency and make the bestest decisions ever, despite the fact that we see this happening in the real world throughout all of recorded history, people gripe about it.

[Gribbly]

Sure there is: the Outworlders aren’t a part of their Clan and aren’t taking payment in Clan work credits, and the Ravens haven’t made any real effort to integrate their economies and can’t simply order the Outworlders to do the work because it risks their social cohesion.

The Ravens in 3070 are stronger than any Clan just after Klondike. Add eighty years of growth on mineral and water rich worlds, which should be considerably less constrained than the 'Golden Century'.

The Ravens are 'small' because it's a cliche.

[Minemech]

 The Outworlders have a different cultural mentality than other states. All of the Battletech states do, but the OWA were known as the "Space Amish" amongst the fanbase for decades with reason. All slogans may be reductionist, but still they contain a kernel of truth.

[tassa_kay]

The Ravens in 3070 are stronger than any Clan just after Klondike. Add eighty years of growth on mineral and water rich worlds, which should be considerably less constrained than the 'Golden Century'.

You’re kind of ignoring the elephant in the room here: the Outworlders are not a part of the Ravens’ civilian castes. They can’t just order the Outworlders to do things like they can their own civilians and pay them in Clan work credits. They have their own economy that’s almost completely separate from the Ravens. That was never the case in the Homeworlds. Your entire point is undercut by this fact.

[Maingunnery]

Whether or not it makes sense to you isn’t really relevant. The fact remains that this is all, in fact, canon.

My argument is about why it occurred, not if it occurred. And the only logical reasons left are export bad/limits. 

Hypothetical and irrelevant besides. There’s no indication that the Alliance ever sought out a replacement trading partner.

The Dc was never exceptional, the Alliance just tried to keep equal trade balance between the FS and DC (equal influence), which is not relevant anymore. And there are plenty of buyers of what the RA does allow to be sold.

[Decoy]

The Combine isn't buying. The FedSuns isn't buying. So, who IS buying?