Author Topic: Autocannon propellents  (Read 11658 times)

Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #30 on: 06 February 2011, 20:28:27 »
Damn it! I was gonna say Vinegar and baking powder! The only thing left to use is a really big rubber band.

The use of nuclear explosions in NACs doesn't really compute for me, because how then do you explain the performance of somethign like an AC-2, which has longer range than an NAC-40? Pr that NACs typically have shorter ranges than Naval Gauss weapons?

I thing they just use plain old fashioned black gunpower.

The description of the NAC also says that they all launch projectiles at the same energy, making higher damage a matter of using bigger shells.  Note that the AC ammo, except for the AC 2, adds up to 100 points of damage per ton (AC/2 is 90 points of damage per ton), so there could very well be something similar going on with non-naval autocannons.

PeripheryPirate

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #31 on: 06 February 2011, 23:31:57 »
Then provide a citation for anyone containing anti-matter for more than the nanosecond range.
Like this Nature article, where they've managed to trap anti-matter for a whole 170 milliseconds.

1 Millisecond == 1,000,000 Nanoseconds.
Thus,
170 milliseconds == 170,000,000 nanoseconds.
Thus,
You actually answered your first post with your second.
;)

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #32 on: 06 February 2011, 23:35:28 »
1 Millisecond == 1,000,000 Nanoseconds.
Thus,
170 milliseconds == 170,000,000 nanoseconds.
Thus,
You actually answered your first post with your second.
;)

Yeah, I was off by a few magnitudes there. But that 'anti-matter storage' crap is the same BS it has been for the past 30 years, ridiculous rumors floating around that people take as fact for no good reason.
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cray

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #33 on: 07 February 2011, 07:30:19 »
The use of nuclear explosions in NACs doesn't really compute for me, because how then do you explain the performance of somethign like an AC-2, which has longer range than an NAC-40?

Nitpick: The NAC/40 has a range of 24 hexes (medium capital range), which is longer than the 20 hexes of the AC/2 (long standard range). If you're referring to the more advanced AC/2s like the UAC/2 and LB2X, then they have a range advantage over the NAC/40 of 1 hex: 25 vs 24.

More to the point, though, I find your comparison to be a non sequitor. The range of the AC/2 has no bearing on the mechanism of the NAC/40. The NAC/40 has the task for firing 1.2 tons of shells a distance of 360 kilometers in under 60 seconds, probably under 15 seconds. The NAC needs a light, effective, medium-tech means of doing so, and electromagnetic options (as seen in NGRs) are heavy. Using a modest nuclear explosion provides energy and rapid propulsion well beyond the limits of chemical propellants.

If standard ACs use different means of propelling their shells than NACs and obtain better range than some NACs, then that's an unrelated issue. It simply means there's an interesting difference in the mechanisms.
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Kovax

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #34 on: 07 February 2011, 08:56:01 »
The most extreme "conventional" chemical reactions are generally those between the elements at opposite ends of the periodic table (ignoring the "noble gasses").  Sodium reacting with Fluorine is supposedly one of the most volatile combinations possible, with Calcium and Chlorine being one step down from each of those, at least as far as I understand from my non-specialist viewpoint.  Chemicals of that volatility have their own unique storage issues, which is part of why they aren't used in that manner today; another part being that the energy release rate is so rapid that containing/channeling the explosion is far more difficult than with conventional explosives.

Recent 20th century "double base" powders cause a compound set of reactions, generating more overall energy than a simple single reaction, at a controlled release rate, making them very useful for providing the steady "push" needed for accellerating projectiles in modern gun barrels.  Assuming that chemists can devise a way to produce a "compound reaction" of that type, using some of the more volatile elements like Flourine and Sodium, that might allow for the increase in muzzle velocity required for "Mech Class" weaponry.

The introduction of depleted uranium or other "heavy metals" as penetrators makes it possible to make use of those higher muzzle velocities.  Previous hardened steel penetrators would shatter on impact at those velocities, paradoxically doing less damage than if travelling slightly slower.

Paul

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #35 on: 07 February 2011, 09:30:55 »
I reckon the propellant is solid, and ignited electrically, possibly laser-ignited. Just using non-powder explosives would significantly increase the efficiency.

Beyond that, unicorns and rainbows.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #36 on: 07 February 2011, 09:35:29 »

Beyond that, unicorns and rainbows.

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rlbell

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #37 on: 07 February 2011, 11:08:08 »
I was hoping for a citation, preferably something peer reviewed, not some random stuff off the web.

Like this Nature article, where they've managed to trap anti-matter for a whole 170 milliseconds.

You might also want to read your wikipedia entries. The 'cost' of antimatter was the price to produce it, it isn't available as a market commodity. Don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of guy who works in the biggest anti-matter field out there.

My bad. 

Evidently I typed in the wrong tone, as I had hoped to make it sound, even with the wildly innaccurate and hopelessly optimistic holding time, that storing antimatter as a means of storing energy was hopelessly impractical and inefficient.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #38 on: 07 February 2011, 11:54:14 »
My bad. 

Evidently I typed in the wrong tone, as I had hoped to make it sound, even with the wildly innaccurate and hopelessly optimistic holding time, that storing antimatter as a means of storing energy was hopelessly impractical and inefficient.

Yeah, I must have read that wrong. I agree, any thoughts of antimatter being anything other than a high-end research tool or a naturally occurring medical diagnostic for at least the next half century are flights of fancy. I think we'll have cold fusion long before antimatter is viable, and certainly not in ammunition.
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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #39 on: 07 February 2011, 12:17:55 »
The most extreme "conventional" chemical reactions are generally those between the elements at opposite ends of the periodic table (ignoring the "noble gasses").  Sodium reacting with Fluorine is supposedly one of the most volatile combinations possible, with Calcium and Chlorine being one step down from each of those, at least as far as I understand from my non-specialist viewpoint.  Chemicals of that volatility have their own unique storage issues, which is part of why they aren't used in that manner today; another part being that the energy release rate is so rapid that containing/channeling the explosion is far more difficult than with conventional explosives.

Energy alone is not a determining factor in propellants, be they rocket fuel or gunpowder. An additional factor of considerable import is the reaction products. Hydrogen-oxygen combustion is great for rockets because the only products are gases (unless you severely over-expand the nozzle and start getting water and ice condensation). Kerosene-oxygen is okay, but its gaseous products are heavier and thus have a lower exhaust velocity. And, if you run fuel-rich (to keep wall temperatures down) you'll have solids - soot - in the exhaust, too, which is a problem in reusable rockets.

Speaking of alkaline-halogen reactants, lithium-fluoride rockets have been considered for use, but their product (lithium fluoride) wasn't a well-behaved gas; it only boils at 3000F, so you'll see a lot of droplets in the exhaust stream (which is hard on everything). Further, to make the most of it, you had to mix in hydrogen. The resulting rocket was an engineering nightmare: tankage for low density ultra-cold hydrogen, low density hot molten lithium, and toxic, cold liquid fluorine combined in a plumbing horror of an engine. All the sacrifices made cancelled the substantial gain in specific impulse compared to hydrogen-oxygen. Sodium-fluorine might also release a lot of energy, but the result will more of a caustic wet burp than an energetic propulsive gas explosion.

Aluminum-oxygen is also highly energetic and both elements are available plentifully on the moon (if you need in-situ production of rocket fuel), but the products of the reaction are abrasive super-hard sapphire powders and droplets with atrocious behavior in a rocket nozzle.

Quote
Recent 20th century "double base" powders cause a compound set of reactions, generating more overall energy than a simple single reaction,

Modestly, yes. The nitroglycerin does help the nitrocellulose. As with the better rocket fuels noted above, the ideal products of modern nitro-based gunwpowders are mostly gases.

I won't entirely give up on chemical reactions for ACs. Explosives do expand at up to 7-8km/s (far faster than real “gunpowders”), which is enough for short-ranged ACs in space, but explosives are generally poor projectile propellants, hence the move to nuclear detonations in NACs. Use brute force and ablation to achieve what chemical impulses can’t.

Quote
The introduction of depleted uranium or other "heavy metals" as penetrators makes it possible to make use of those higher muzzle velocities.  Previous hardened steel penetrators would shatter on impact at those velocities, paradoxically doing less damage than if travelling slightly slower.

Depleted uranium is not a particularly strong material, either; high-end projectile steels are universally harder and stronger than DU. Uranium’s two advantages over steel are density (so more kinetic energy is applied to less armor) and a self-sharpening shearing behavior as it plows through armor. Tungsten, which is almost equally as dense as DU and much, much stronger than uranium, lacks the self-sharpening behavior and generally sees 10-30% less penetration because of it.

Speaking generally, as impact velocities exceed ~2km/s, there isn’t time for a projectile to shatter. Impacts are modeled with hydrocode software because armor and projectile both behave like thick liquids because there isn’t time for fractures to spread before the impact is over.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Kovax

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Re: Autocannon propellents
« Reply #40 on: 07 February 2011, 15:29:24 »
As long as the secondary components of the reaction provide the essential expandable gasses, a Fluorine or Chlorine reaction with Sodium or Calcium would provide not only sufficient engergy to superheat them, but the additional essential benefit of providing solid byproducts to quite literally "rub salt into the wound"....to be taken with several grains of such.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2011, 16:43:57 by Kovax »

 

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