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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Moonsword on 26 December 2011, 20:54:17
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Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
Season's Greetings! This Boxing Day, we're opening up an appropriately boxy vehicle for your examination, the Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun. Developed by Quikscell Corp., makers of fine vehicles everywhere, the Hetzer was intended to make defense easier for poorer worlds. The entire design from start to finish is an exercise in cost-cutting measures to the point that some suspect it was accountants, not engineers, who actually designed the Hetzer. Few ascribe any benign motives to those same accountants and crews are frequently regarded by themselves if no one else as being equally low cost. To quote TRO3030, “Those manning a Hetzer usually fall into one of three groups: those being disciplined, those who lack the talent or initiative to get out, and those who take a perverse pride in going to battle with the little chance of survival.” They're most commonly found in backwater militias or Periphery forces, but House Liao has taken the vehicle to heart, ordering large numbers with a curious knock-on benefit to other customers by forcing Quikscell to ship the vehicles with the wiring and other systems installed correctly, something Quikscell has a habit of not bothering with.
The Hetzer lives up to its reputation and, perhaps, just a bit past it in the right hands. A wheeled chassis is marginally cheaper overall than a tracked design, and part of that is the reduced engine size. A mere 140-rated SitiCide ICE is sufficient to drive the chassis to 64 kph, slow by modern standards but enough to pace your typical dirtbag militia tank (a Scorpion) and more acceptable in an era where even some lights were going the same speed. Although TRO3039 speaks in dire terms about the armor, 6 tons of StarSlab/6 standard plate goes a lot further when you don't have a turret to cover, generating an arrangement of 30/22/22. It's hardly great but it's passable. The Hetzer's real survivability problem isn't the armor, it's the combination of the eyebrow-raising armament and the fact that wheeled vehicles aren't great at staying mobile. Your gun (singular) is certainly worthy of being the sole armament. The Crusher 5H Autocannon/20 is a brutal weapon, fully capable of punching straight through certain light 'Mechs and then scratching the paint of whatever's behind them, and with four tons of ammo, you've got enough endurance to last as long as your armor usually will using the precision ammo that'll let you hit those light 'Mechs. Back in the Succession Wars, you could easily toss a ton of flak ammo in there to punch out VTOLs or fighters silly enough to get in your forward arc and still have plenty for a routine engagement. Although they're not likely to be mobile for long if only because of the rubble, a Hetzer is one of those special joys that makes fighting in the concrete jungle such a wonderful way to build characters. (No, that's not a typo.)
Inevitably, a certain number of variants have turned up over the years, and they remind me a bit of Swaybacks by centering on trading out the big gun for a different load of firepower. The simplest switches down to a class 10 autocannon, adding another ton each of ammunition and armor. My recommendation: Carry alternative loads. Flak, precision, flechette, whatever. Trust me, you've got room, and with a 34/26/26 armor spread, you'll live longer to use it. Eschewing that problem entirely is the laser model, trading out for four medium lasers, the heat sinks to use them, and an armor layout identical to the AC/10 model's. The LRM model steps back from the action with two LRM 15s fed by four tons of ammunition. A little more mobile and significantly tougher than the LRM carrier, there's some uses here. Free idea: One ton of Thunders and three tons of semi-guided or Narc ammo will make a real mess. A scout variant plunges right back into the fray, removing two tons of ammo for a remote sensor dispenser with 30 sensors. This one has some uses, allowing you to sweep an area and leave sensors behind to cover it as you advance provided you have units able to monitor them. The final variant out there is an SRM model, trading the atuocannon and one ton of ammo for five SRM 6s. If you use this one, operate it like and alongside the AC/20-armed original, letting that one punch someone's armor out then burying them in SRM fire. If it lacks the turret of a light SRM carrier, the Hetzer (SRM) has thicker armor to compensate for it.
Still, time marches on and even the humble Hetzer has received some upgrades since the Clans came back to the Inner Sphere. The first to turn up was part of Record Sheets: Upgrades, now incorporated into RS3058U Unabridged's IS volume, and it's a real doozy. Unlike the original, which I somehow suspect is still being sold to backwater militias, this one uses a fusion engine. The weight savings aren't applied straight to a bigger gun, although you're now packing an LB 20-X cluster cannon. Instead, another ton of ammo was added (by default, solid shot, but I lean toward three tons of cluster myself) while a half-ton was applied to each flank, bringing the armor up to 7.5 tons with 30 points on all facings. Later on, this model was the basis for a sealed variant. The armor was replaced, now 6.5 tons of heavy ferro-fibrous with 32 points on each facing, and this model also adds CASE and swaps the LB-X for a RAC/5 fed by three tons of ammunition. Environmental sealing is there, of course. The wildcard here is the use of C3I. Exactly why this vehicle is restricted to the AFFS and CCAF, neither one a large user of C3I, and isn't available to the Word or ComStar, I don't know. Late-breaking news: It's available to the Word and went extinct after the Jihad. Considering the specialized nature, I'm not really surprised.
During the Jihad, an unknown (or, rather, carefully undisclosed) party advertised with FrontierTech, publishers of the universe report presented to fans by XTRO: Boondocks, that they were responsible for creating the Jagdpanzer II, a major refit of the original Hetzer that's probably from somewhere in the Lyran Alliance. The 180-rated XLFE gives it the speed to pace a Crab at full gallop under normal conditions. The heat sinks go straight into supporting the six tons of stealth armor, laid out in the familiar 30/22/22 pattern. The forward mount is now home to a Defiance Thunder Ultra/20 autocannon fed by four tons of ammunition, providing an absolutely crushing potential blow, and each sponson has a machine gun with a half-ton of ammo. (Predictably, there's no CASE.) ECM is present to 'power' the stealth armor. Although the price is high for what you get, I can see some potential. Open field operations are a lot safer, while the ability to evade in the concrete jungle (probably more due to the ECM than the armor itself) is much greater. Whether it's worth it on a platform that's not that much less vulnerable than usual to being immobilized is debatable.
Operating the Hetzer requires even more cleverness than a Hunchback, which has the advantage of being sturdy for its size and difficult to immobilize, two things Hetzers aren't, and further has a broader arc of fire. It's not that difficult to get out of a Hetzer's forward arc in close maneuvers, so you need to either find spots to lurk where that's not an option, make such spots (minefields help), or provide a way to punish an enemy who decides to flank your Hetzers, assuming they're not operating in support of something to cover its blind spots. At the same time, while a city might be a natural place, you want to avoid dropping buildings and scattering rubble piles that will block a Hetzer's ability to maneuver. If you have to, accept a relative targeting disadvantage to put the AC/20 on target - you don't have the speed to really evade that much fire anyway, while a few solid hits from a class 20 (or 5 SRM 6s) will make it a moot point. The LRM and AC/10 models have smaller problems in that regard; keep them back to take advantage of their longer reach and keep an enemy further away from your blind spots.
Hetzers are a classic example of an enemy that's dangerous if you ignore it and easily dealt with if you don't and have the right tools on hand. Disable them through whatever means necessary - LB 10-Xs are the usual superlative choice, but there are other options - and then blow the armor from a safe distance or outside the forward arc. Minefields can hem one in just as readily as they can you, so consider applying them to cut one's maneuver option. If you're dealing with hidden unit rules, bring active probes and if necessary, bring ECM modules tuned to disrupt jamming efforts, too. Above all, don't dismiss the thing as a non-threat and suddenly find a Hetzer at short range with good numbers. That's not a mistake you'll make very often before you're dead.
References: As usual, your first stop is the Master Unit List (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/1513), with a detour to examine the Jagdpanzer II (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/1664). This time around, the only miniature at CamoSpecs is in Taurian colors (http://camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=1274), solidly reinforcing the Hetzer's image as a backwater mainstay.
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Thanks for the entertaining and informative article, Moonsword. (P.S. Happy Boxing Day to you.)
I not seen in my limited stretch of gaming, Hetzers used well in pickup games. However, i do like the vehicle even they are potential death traps for its crews.
I like how Kevin Killiany wrote up in the last printed MWDA To Ride the Chimera (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/To_Ride_the_Chimera) about a Hetzer vehicle crew trying to survive a Liao invasion of their planet.
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Not a bad vehicle, the wheels help with the speed on roads, which is helpful given the lack of a turret. The newer variants help with building a force from a single chassis, always a plus in my eyes.
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The Laser variant shows just how much ammo this things carries, you swap out a ballistic weapon for an energy equivalent one and you come out ahead, 1.6 tons to be precise, 1 ton goes to armor, where the other 0.5 tons goes is a mystery (power amps are the only pieces of equipment to round to tenths of a ton under standard rules) unless it's turreted now
The other variant with math problems is the remote sensor one, a single remote sensor dispenser weighs half (0.5) a ton and has 30 inter grated sensors, again where that missing mass goes is a mystery
That said this thing is probably the cheapest way to field a 20-class autocannon, so you can put several of them onto the field and mass them for something very nasty, a LRM model backstopping them to give them long range fire while they close is probably a good idea, use the LB-X variant if you can for the extra range and the ability to deal with infantry
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The one variant not noted is the actual original Hetzer- which was notable in that it was a -drone-.
Yes, the first writeup for our boxy-good budget gun was robotically controlled (noted as the Furbish Robocheck). Other than that quirk, the stats are identical to the TRO 3039 version in every way. (Dragon #114, M. Weis & K. Stein authors)
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It's a beautiful design, utterly horrific when supported by infantry and double-blind rules.
I wonder, what are the cost/benefit issues for switching to a fuel cell engine?
Would also love to see...
-a Heavy Rifle/SRM-2 version
-a minelayer/minesweeper version
-a veh-stealth refit for the CC's militias
(and as a Fa-shih carrier... sensors show enemy BA over there, surprise!)
Seems like a great cheap veh base, like the light srm-carrier is... only with a heavier load and less technical aspects (due to no turret). It's a great all-purpose kit, and seems to be a marketing ploy for driving sales of heavy weapons moreso than selling the vehicle itself!
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Fuel cell gives you 4 tons to play with
That said the intro date on this thing seems to be about 300 years late (it or something like should have come out about the time of the AC-20 itself)
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I like the Hetzer even looking at it from the perspective of a Clan second line garrison force. It is cheap enough to gamble with in ambushes as mentioned previously, but the real use I see for it is bodyguard duty where that monster of a gun will keep people from messing with the vastly more important fire support unit it is protecting. This should work especially well when you can prepare a ridge to provide your 'Mechs with partial cover and totally screen the Hetzers until you want to beat someone down with them.
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There's not much more fun than causing assaults to run screaming in fear of a wheeled tank. The fact that you can have 2 in the same hex is just gravy.
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There's not much more fun than causing assaults to run screaming in fear of a wheeled tank. The fact that you can have 2 in the same hex is just gravy.
You forgot to mention the fact that even when combined those two wheeled tanks weigh less than the 'Mech and cost less than most light 'Mechs.
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There's not much more fun than causing assaults to run screaming in fear of a wheeled tank. The fact that you can have 2 in the same hex is just gravy.
Now I'm envisioning a few companies of them patrolling the city's main thoroughfares, 300 meters apart. Talk about keeping the locals in line ;D
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The Laser variant shows just how much ammo this things carries, you swap out a ballistic weapon for an energy equivalent one and you come out ahead, 1.6 tons to be precise, 1 ton goes to armor, where the other 0.5 tons goes is a mystery (power amps are the only pieces of equipment to round to tenths of a ton under standard rules) unless it's turreted now
They round to half-tons per the errata. Designs are legally allowed to be underweight, meaning that there's actually nothing wrong anywhere. If you think there's errata, report it in the RS3039 Unabridged errata thread and do Xotl a favor by following the errata template.
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I like the AC/20 love your Christmas articles are giving, but you forgot to cover the Jagdpanzer II. I dont have the XTRO for it, but judging by the name, it must be intended to be a Wehrmacht descendant.
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Great article. I will second the request for coverage of the Jagdpanzer, it's by far the most interesting variant and I was sorely disappointed it didn't make the transition to a production model in TRO Prototypes.
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I'm guessing its the XLFE and the Stealth armor that couldn't justify the cost for production.
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I'm guessing its the XLFE and the Stealth armor that couldn't justify the cost for production.
Honestly, even a Stealth Hetzer would work wonders with a SFE and none of the extra bells and whistles. The extra speed was nice, but un-needed for urban work IMHO.
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The wildcard here is the use of C3I. Exactly why this vehicle is restricted to the AFFS and CCAF, neither one a large user of C3I, and isn't available to the Word or ComStar, I don't know.
Error. It originally was C3 slave, and the design was changed to c3i and the MUL availabilities weren't changed. MUL updated now :).
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I love hiding these things in cities to screw with people. Few things are as fun as a surprise boom-sticking or three.
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Honestly, even a Stealth Hetzer would work wonders with a SFE and none of the extra bells and whistles. The extra speed was nice, but un-needed for urban work IMHO.
IMO stealth is not that important in urban area. Range rarely matters and PBIs ignore SA anyway.
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I like the AC/20 love your Christmas articles are giving, but you forgot to cover the Jagdpanzer II. I dont have the XTRO for it, but judging by the name, it must be intended to be a Wehrmacht descendant.
It didn't get covered because when I checked the MUL to make sure I had all the variants, there was nothing mentioned. (Note carefully that it's not called a Hetzer there - garbage in, garbage out.) I'll deal with that in a little while.
Error. It originally was C3 slave, and the design was changed to c3i and the MUL availabilities weren't changed. MUL updated now :).
And here I assumed there was some strange, deeper truth to the matter. I'll update the article in a few minutes when I put the Jagdpanzer in.
IMO stealth is not that important in urban area. Range rarely matters and PBIs ignore SA anyway.
It's not useful in standard rules but stealth armor (combined with the necessary ECM) can really interfere with detection under double blind. Combine that with the gain in the ability to close in open field situations and I can see a case being made. I'd rather put it on something a little more flexible, though.
EDIT: Article updated.
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Excellent analysis there. No CASE really screws such an expensive unit. From the wording, it means half ton of MG ammo per sponson?
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It's not useful in standard rules but stealth armor (combined with the necessary ECM) can really interfere with detection under double blind. Combine that with the gain in the ability to close in open field situations and I can see a case being made. I'd rather put it on something a little more flexible, though.
In open field the Stealth armor is a life safer, true. Yet the Jagdpanzer still has a rather short ranged main gun, which means it will be in short range of an opponent's weapons before it gets into optimal range for its own cannon.
I do not play double blind often but I when I do I prefer tanks with a turret. Still, I will give this Hetzer a try next time. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Excellent analysis there. No CASE really screws such an expensive unit. From the wording, it means half ton of MG ammo per sponson?
I wasn't clear enough. It's a half-ton total. 200 rounds of MG ammo on anything with fewer guns than a Piranha often gets a snarky remark from me.
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The Hetzer is one of those units who;s tactical value can oft outweigh it's actual value as a unit. It's a cheap, disposable and crappy vehicle, yet it has a punch that is far too big to ignore. Used well, they can make great area-denial tools (Nobody wants to risk getting thwacked by that big AC) or, at the very least, can do damage out of all proportion to their value.
IIRC, the only description of a Hetzer from the crew's PoV comes from To Ride the Chimera. In it, the crew are willing to throw themselves into battle because their retirement package sucks anyway. Can't think of a better reason myself.
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The Hetzer is one of those units who;s tactical value can oft outweigh it's actual value as a unit. It's a cheap, disposable and crappy vehicle, yet it has a punch that is far too big to ignore. Used well, they can make great area-denial tools (Nobody wants to risk getting thwacked by that big AC) or, at the very least, can do damage out of all proportion to their value.
IIRC, the only description of a Hetzer from the crew's PoV comes from To Ride the Chimera. In it, the crew are willing to throw themselves into battle because their retirement package sucks anyway. Can't think of a better reason myself.
That was exactly why I was thinking of using it as a bodyguard. Even if the Hetzer never fires a shot in the entire battle, if its presence can keep some allied LRM Carriers safe it was more than worth the investment.
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There's a reason I keep recommending Demolishers and Hunchbacks for that role: No one in their right mind really wants to get 3-6 hexes from one. Hetzers aren't quite as good in that role due to lacking the width of fire arc I'd really like for it but they can definitely be an imposing presence.
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There's a reason I keep recommending Demolishers and Hunchbacks for that role: No one in their right mind really wants to get 3-6 hexes from one. Hetzers aren't quite as good in that role due to lacking the width of fire arc I'd really like for it but they can definitely be an imposing presence.
A quick check on the wiki gives me these numbers.
Hetzer: 664,000 C-bills, 565 BV
Demolisher: 2,151,000 C-bills, 973 BV
Hunchback: 3,467,875 C-bills, 1,041 BV
Thus, while the Demolisher and Hunchback are most certainly more capable, the Hetzer is enough cheaper for me to favor it in a defensive roll where you do not have to pay to bring it to the enemy. Going by BV you can bring two Hetzers for either of the larger machines, but the real win is in C-bills where you can field roughly a lance of Hetzers for the price of the larger machines. The numbers do get a little ugly if you start loosing vehicles because it is a whole lot more expensive to replace a totaled vehicle than it is to repair a damaged unit, but if played properly an area denial tool should not take too much fire and garrison units are mostly there as insurance anyways so the cheaper Hetzer will likely be the better investment.
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Park two Hetzer's in the same hex, one facing North and the other South. Who needs a turret anyway? :)
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You know, reading this article I have a new goal in life. A Hetzer IIC with twin UAC20s.
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You know, reading this article I have a new goal in life. A Hetzer IIC with twin UAC20s.
I am not sure about mounting two, but you could make a very nice variant with a simple upgrade to a UAC and pile the freed tonnage into armor. The cost stays down, but it gets significantly better with thicker armor, more firepower, and increased range. Really, the only problem with it is the creative shot placement of your typical Clan vehicle crews which is not something that can be easily overcome.
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Now I'm wondering about using super-heavy tank rules to create a WH40K-esque monster with slabs of archaic armor, a AC-20 in each facing, tons of MGs and the like... sorta something you might see in the middle of Von Strang's world (pre-clan)
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You know, reading this article I have a new goal in life. A Hetzer IIC with twin UAC20s.
You can do it at 40 tons with some serious cuts and a major price increase(I ended up using a 100 XLFE, less armor, less ammo), or at 55 tons and be short only a half ton (which becomes a spare half ton if you switch to FF), though with about the same price increase even just using a SFE.
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Okay, so to make it truly a Clan "what were you thinking?", you mount one AC front and one AC rear. :)
"Turret? We don't need no stinking turret..."
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There are a couple bits of equipment that I'm surprised haven't turned up on Hetzers yet (officially that is, I suspect there might be some around)
a Gauss Rifle would swap nicely with a AC 20 and allow for plenty of ammo (3 tons) ... that would be a "B" class refit? (maybe ... I'm guessing here).
and considering that there are plenty of Hetzers in the Periphery I'm shocked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DEG6BWgp0) there aren't any official Rocket Launcher Hetzer lurking on battlefields, waiting for a 'Mech to walk in front of them.
I'm guessing we will see stats for Rocket Launcher Hetzers before one with Gauss Rifles?
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Other then the AMS vulnerability and that it would sort of not be a Hetzer anymore, a large MML would be a nice swap out for the AC. Hmmmm, Large MML and stealth armor.. [drool]
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Silly thought - pack an AC/20 (or UAC/20 if you have the tech) and an SRM 6 one into a hex for ambush. The AC makes a hole which fills with SRMs. And fire a couple of racks of infernos for the laugh.
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Switch to a fuel-cell engine and you can kick in an extra four tons of gear; that's enough for a six-pack and ammo to supplement the big gun. Alternatively, pour all that into AC20 ammunition - and stock way, way up on precision rounds.
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Switch to a fuel-cell engine and you can kick in an extra four tons of gear; that's enough for a six-pack and ammo to supplement the big gun. Alternatively, pour all that into AC20 ammunition - and stock way, way up on precision rounds.
What would it cost to upgrade the engine thusly? (I'm still waiting for Heavy Metal to come out updated to TW specs)
Tossing in the ammo bins, an extra ton and a half of armor, and CASE (which is cheap in itself) would make a greatly improved militia unit... particularly with the ammo bins to carry Armor-Piercing ammo, Flichette Ammo AND standard ammo with ease.
(BTW, does two tons of the same type specialty AC-20 ammo make for 5 round or 4 rounds?)
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What would it cost to upgrade the engine thusly? (I'm still waiting for Heavy Metal to come out updated to TW specs)
Tossing in the ammo bins, an extra ton and a half of armor, and CASE (which is cheap in itself) would make a greatly improved militia unit... particularly with the ammo bins to carry Armor-Piercing ammo, Flichette Ammo AND standard ammo with ease.
(BTW, does two tons of the same type specialty AC-20 ammo make for 5 round or 4 rounds?)
Four per; each ton counts separately and rounds down. So it becomes a bit of a derringer, but frankly loading precision ammo in a -20 class is going to do very nasty things. Maybe have two rounds of AP just in case you come across something big, but I think that's a sweet setup. Alternatively, an MG in a turret on top with a half a ton of ammo might make a good addition - sure it's 1.5 tons for all that, but half a ton of CASE and then the extra two tons for ammo still makes a great little tank-destroyer.
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You'd want want to spend more than just 1.5t on that turret: some armor might be a good idea, so you'd only be looking at an extra ton of ammo for the AC. Or, you might as well just go the whole hog and move the AC to the turret as well, instead of adding the extra ammo.
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Four per; each ton counts separately and rounds down. So it becomes a bit of a derringer, but frankly loading precision ammo in a -20 class is going to do very nasty things. Maybe have two rounds of AP just in case you come across something big, but I think that's a sweet setup. Alternatively, an MG in a turret on top with a half a ton of ammo might make a good addition - sure it's 1.5 tons for all that, but half a ton of CASE and then the extra two tons for ammo still makes a great little tank-destroyer.
But adding a turret involves a lot more complicated equipment, maintenance costs, and a structural rebuild instead of just an engine refit.
IMO it's one of the few times it would be worth carrying Flechette ammo... though I'd expect to see these supported by infantry units of course, but one ton (out of six) isn't unreasonable at all. Worst case, if you ran out of all other ammo, it still does 10 damage vs armored targets.
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One other thing you can cram into this ride in place of the Doomcanon is a PPC
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There are a couple bits of equipment that I'm surprised haven't turned up on Hetzers yet (officially that is, I suspect there might be some around)
a Gauss Rifle would swap nicely with a AC 20 and allow for plenty of ammo (3 tons) ... that would be a "B" class refit? (maybe ... I'm guessing here).
It exists, it dropped 10 tons, switched to treads powered by a fusion engine and has a light gauss rifle . . . oh, and they decided to call it a Main Gauche.
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IMO, the Jagdpanzer II should have gotten a gauss rifle instead of the UAC-20 since the original was well known for it's 7.5 Pak cannon.
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One other thing you can cram into this ride in place of the Doomcanon is a PPC
Blech! If you want to do something like that use a Hunter.
My personal preference would be to replace the AC with as many rocket launchers as I can fit on it and nickname it the Claymore. Wait for someone to trip over it and then set it off.
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One other thing you can cram into this ride in place of the Doomcanon is a PPC
between the power amplifier and heatsinks, not really an ideal choice. you are basically swapping a 20pt punch at 9hexs for 10pts out to 18. it would be much easier to just swap the AC20 for an AC10 and extra ammo or armor.
i much prefer the guass idea.. straight swap and 24 shots. would make a really nice, fairly low BV and low cost sniper unit.
speaking of other obvious refits.. switching from wheeled to tracked (making it more similar to it's WW2 namesake) would offer greater offroad mobility at the expense of losing the road MP bonus.
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the Hetzer looks like it stumbled out of the tail-end of WW1 to me. it's more or less a small teepee of armor covering a set of treads and a very big gun. i can very much see this as something the accountants made the engineers rush through as fast as possible, skimping on a number of streamlining processes that might have made it more effective because they wanted it ready for sales yesterday.
that said, it's not too bad to look at in a spartanly utilitarian way. it's simple, it's lines are clean enough, and it has the merits of a big gun. it may not be pretty, but at least it's not stupid looking.
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between the power amplifier and heatsinks, not really an ideal choice. you are basically swapping a 20pt punch at 9hexs for 10pts out to 18. it would be much easier to just swap the AC20 for an AC10 and extra ammo or armor.
i much prefer the guass idea.. straight swap and 24 shots. would make a really nice, fairly low BV and low cost sniper unit.
speaking of other obvious refits.. switching from wheeled to tracked (making it more similar to it's WW2 namesake) would offer greater offroad mobility at the expense of losing the road MP bonus.
Uh, ground units is ground units. They all get the bonus on pavement:
Ground vehicles: Ground vehicles moving on pavement may receive a movement bonus of 1 MP, regardless of whether the vehicle uses cruising or fl anking movement. To gain the extra MP, the unit must begin its turn on a paved hex and continue to travel on pavement for the entire Movement Phase.
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the Hetzer looks like it stumbled out of the tail-end of WW1 to me. it's more or less a small teepee of armor covering a set of treads and a very big gun. i can very much see this as something the accountants made the engineers rush through as fast as possible, skimping on a number of streamlining processes that might have made it more effective because they wanted it ready for sales yesterday.
that said, it's not too bad to look at in a spartanly utilitarian way. it's simple, it's lines are clean enough, and it has the merits of a big gun. it may not be pretty, but at least it's not stupid looking.
Actually it is modeled on a WWII tank destroyer/assault gun of the same name. Though it's namesake was tracked.
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Yeah it always looks ugly. Especially when you're staring down the barrel of it's gun! ;D
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I love hiding these things in cities to screw with people. Few things are as fun as a surprise boom-sticking or three.
Bonus points if it's sharing a surprise hiding spot with an SRM carrier. Nothing more fun than surprising an unwary heavy Mech with an AC-20 blast followed by SRM-spam. I caught a Crusader years ago doing this and dropped it in one salvo- and while it was thanks to an ammo hit, even CASE would have meant a crippled Mech. Replace that Crud with a Mad Cat, and it still would have been pretty fouled up. Solid combo for an urban defense force on the cheap if you're overrun by heavy forces- just don't expect them to be overly survivable after the big reveal.
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the Hetzer looks like it stumbled out of the tail-end of WW1 to me. it's more or less a small teepee of armor covering a set of treads and a very big gun. i can very much see this as something the accountants made the engineers rush through as fast as possible, skimping on a number of streamlining processes that might have made it more effective because they wanted it ready for sales yesterday.
that said, it's not too bad to look at in a spartanly utilitarian way. it's simple, it's lines are clean enough, and it has the merits of a big gun. it may not be pretty, but at least it's not stupid looking.
That's because it's a Quickcell product, designed by accountants, nailed together by "engineers" and died in by 3rd line troops
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Bonus points if it's sharing a surprise hiding spot with an SRM carrier. Nothing more fun than surprising an unwary heavy Mech with an AC-20 blast followed by SRM-spam. I caught a Crusader years ago doing this and dropped it in one salvo- and while it was thanks to an ammo hit, even CASE would have meant a crippled Mech. Replace that Crud with a Mad Cat, and it still would have been pretty fouled up. Solid combo for an urban defense force on the cheap if you're overrun by heavy forces- just don't expect them to be overly survivable after the big reveal.
I hereby dub this particular move the Hellbie Parking Ticket.
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I hereby dub this particular move the Hellbie Parking Ticket.
And now I'm recalling the 'No Ticket' scene frorm Indana Jones and the Last Crusade. O0 Also for your traffic enforcement needs the SRM Hetzer half a SRM carrier, faster, and better armored. Pair them for punching a mech's ticket?
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That's because it's a Quickcell product, designed by accountants, nailed together by "engineers" and died in by 3rd line troops
given he mentioned treads, i think we was referring to the original Hetzer, the Jagdpanzer 38(t) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzer)
which was a stopgap product, designed for low cost, hammered together by 'engineers', and died in by 2nd and 3rd line troops.
the original hetzer was intended to replace the Marder III tank destroyer, when it was realized the Jagdtiger and Jagdpanther heavy tank destroyers proved too difficult and expensive to build in numbers. it was a modification of the Panzer 38(t), which was a light infantry support tank designed in 1935 in Czechoslovakia. the 38(t) was obsolete pretty much from the point it was first built, but got used into the early 40's anyway. after the country was absorbed into nazi germany, the 38(t) saw use in the german army. the Hetzer was a redesign done in 1943-44 to turn it into a self propelled anti-tank gun. the upper hull and turret was removed for a more heavily armored sloped casemate, which was actually remarkably high tech for the time.
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Silly thought - pack an AC/20 (or UAC/20 if you have the tech) and an SRM 6 one into a hex for ambush. The AC makes a hole which fills with SRMs. And fire a couple of racks of infernos for the laugh.
M-pod.
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I've always loved the Hetzer and it's one of my main vehicles when I play with them. They make great ambush vehicles and generate fear and confusion all out of proportion to their BV.
In the two double-blind scenarios that I've played (both in city terrain), the look on the other player's face when they stumbled into an intersection and discovered that there were two Hetzers, and a pair of SRM carriers in one instance, hidden there was priceless! In the first instance I mauled a BattleMaster and in the other I obliterated a Dire Wolf, complete with a point of Elementals that it was carrying.
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I learned a long time ago: always wear brown pants when playing against these monsters.
I have a similar story to the last post except I was facing the Hetzers. Playing double-blind I ran my Wolfhound around a corner and found myself at point-blank range of two Hetzers. Thankfully the other player whiffed his roles (barely). I jumped out. Worst part of the whole affair was the bill for getting the stains out of my command couch. :)
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Be glad you *survived* to get that bill!
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If a XL engine is put into Hetzer to make it faster, would become a Hetzer Express? ^-^
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This thing is basically a pint-sized Demolisher. You gotta respect the sheer firepower of an AC/20, no matter the era.
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And in later eras you can fill the beast with AP rounds. ;D
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This thing is basically a pint-sized Demolisher. You gotta respect the sheer firepower of an AC/20, no matter the era.
Aff. Even a Clansman respects the AC/20, 'primative' though it may be... (Compared to the Ultra AC/20 built in the homeworlds that is.)
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I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.
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I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.
i can see a lot of problems with that for Quikscell, Monkeys are very social and would be quick to unionize for one. i bet they use warthogs.
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You mean like this . . . ?
(http://www.waltsense.com/storage/articles/20100720_AniMonkey.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1279639055623)
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You mean like this . . . ?
(http://www.waltsense.com/storage/articles/20100720_AniMonkey.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1279639055623)
"Gentleman, as the Quikscell Representatives for your system, we can assure you our products will perform splendidly for your milita and these "rumors" of their suspensions having corrosion issues in mildly acidic climates like your swamps you claim to have heard are slander by our competitors. Now if you'd like to come inside and we can discuss the contract-"
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I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.
A shame they also got their hands on UAC and versions as well. While they improve the performance, it does poke at the fun of a Hetzer being the cheapest thing possible.
But I do love the Hetzer. It's a perfect combined arms tank. Not good enough to win by spamming, not bad enough to be ignored. It's a brutally simple design but requires more finese than the simplicity of the design would suggest.
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The one variant not noted is the actual original Hetzer- which was notable in that it was a -drone-.
Yes, the first writeup for our boxy-good budget gun was robotically controlled (noted as the Furbish Robocheck). Other than that quirk, the stats are identical to the TRO 3039 version in every way. (Dragon #114, M. Weis & K. Stein authors)
This is actually the nastiest of all Hetzer's, at least when it was first released, the drone rules basically allow you to make an experienced crew spread around further
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After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....
Omni Hetzer
Let it roll around your head a while.
Edited for spelling
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After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....
Omni Hetzer
Let it roll around your head a while.
Edited for spelling
I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.
I'm always open to new ideas though, so if you can show me what role an Omni-Hetzer serves I'm open to hearing it.
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After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....
Omni Hetzer
Let it roll around your head a while.
Edited for spelling
40 tonne wheeled BFG, just swap out the BFG
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I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.
Let's be fair here, Hellbie. Quality control went out the window when you decided to buy from QuikScell. All the Omni conversion would do is make the whole process even more random in terms of what goes wrong, like hooking up an ECM suite suddenly bombarding everyone's tactical channels with TeleTubby reruns. Including the Hetzer's. Actually, knowing QuikScell, only the Hetzer's.
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Let's be fair here, Hellbie. Quality control went out the window when you decided to buy from QuikScell. All the Omni conversion would do is make the whole process even more random in terms of what goes wrong, like hooking up an ECM suite suddenly bombarding everyone's tactical channels with TeleTubby reruns. Including the Hetzer's. Actually, knowing QuikScell, only the Hetzer's.
I will take a Dozen Teletubby Cannons: the deadliest weapon not used by the Blakists.
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I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.
I'm always open to new ideas though, so if you can show me what role an Omni-Hetzer serves I'm open to hearing it.
Look at the already existing variants, the Hetzer is a box...with 18 tons of stuff that you can cram into it. Those 18 tons of stuff may be an AC/20 with 20 rounds, it could be 2 LRM-15s with 16 rounds per launcher...or even something else nobody has built yet, what you get with an Omni- Hetzer is a box of surprises, throw in one with ECM and now it's a lance of I don't know and maybe I don't want to go to contact too early to find out. The excitement doesn't stop there, Battlearmor can ride an Omni-Vehicle, now your Ambusher/Fire Support can haul spotters/security element (BA are great for securing flanks and sweeping pesky infantry). Lastly, what I feel is the best part is...the cost of acquisition for the added capability is not ridiculously high. ( I am away from my source material but I am "kinda confident" that IIRC the total costs for the upgrade is 10% of the entire unit costs, so ~70K per vehicle a 25% cost bump is kinda high, but is only 166,000 more per vehicle is not a dealbreaker)
Thanks for the intel, Scotty.
Edited for clarity®
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Omni-fication is a 25% cost bump.
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That cost also doesn't include the pods, which isn't as simple as yanking a couple of LRM-15s off an old ruined Trebuchet and calling it an 'A' variant. You need the pods- which, I recall, are more expensive than the usual weapons- and you'll need to make sure you have at least a few of them handy to make the new pod system worthwhile (why bring an LB-20X Prime config if you don't have the pods to make an LRM version, an artillery version, etc.?).
And again, we're not talking a vehicle that is particularly utilitarian. Wheels, so it's not that great off the urban streets. Slow, so it's not like it's going to get much of anywhere even in the best of circumstances. Armored like a cardboard box everywhere but the front. To me, we have a block of thin armor on wheels with a BFG on the front, and if we're lucky it works. Adding Omni-tech just increases costs for a marginal unit- to me, the funds would be better used on a unit more capable of joining a battlefield and operating on bad terrain, like the Vedette or Manticore.
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That cost also doesn't include the pods, which isn't as simple as yanking a couple of LRM-15s off an old ruined Trebuchet and calling it an 'A' variant. You need the pods- which, I recall, are more expensive than the usual weapons- and you'll need to make sure you have at least a few of them handy to make the new pod system worthwhile (why bring an LB-20X Prime config if you don't have the pods to make an LRM version, an artillery version, etc.?).
And again, we're not talking a vehicle that is particularly utilitarian. Wheels, so it's not that great off the urban streets. Slow, so it's not like it's going to get much of anywhere even in the best of circumstances. Armored like a cardboard box everywhere but the front. To me, we have a block of thin armor on wheels with a BFG on the front, and if we're lucky it works. Adding Omni-tech just increases costs for a marginal unit- to me, the funds would be better used on a unit more capable of joining a battlefield and operating on bad terrain, like the Vedette or Manticore.
Actually, the cost quoted does include the weapons, in the quoted case this is the base Hetzer with the AC/20 and 20 rounds. Tragically, it is more expensive with the paired LRM-15s.
The joy of increasing the costs on this marginal unit is that you think of this unit as a way to self deploy/haul extra pods for Mechs...it's a box, a nice big box. Compared to a Vedette which is not that big (10.5 tons total fraction that it can haul, and a marginally higher cost), or the Manticore adding over 660K C-Bills to the costs of the base unit (armed). Simply cutting off weapons and "making" a new variant occupies much more time and more risk of failure. Lastly for 166,000 you now have a "casual" Battlearmor APC which is a surprisingly handy thing to have in a support unit.
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If you want a box to carry guns, you are better off with a tracked heavy or assault frame with thick armor. You can get a lot more firepower and armor to let it serve as a line unit unlike the thin skinned Hetzer.
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If you want a box to carry guns, you are better off with a tracked heavy or assault frame with thick armor. You can get a lot more firepower and armor to let it serve as a line unit unlike the thin skinned Hetzer.
I think you are mistaking the Hetzer for an MBT, I can assure you that will only get you a dead vehicle. You will have to think differently to be effective. The opportunity
here is that you get to inject some uncertainty into your opponent as to what he is facing...the actions to deal with an AC/20 are entirely inappropriate when you find out you are facing a Gauss Rifle.
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No, his point was if you are going to SPEND the money on an Omni you are better off doing it for something heavy (more armor and structure) and tracked (more survivable and able to go more places) rather than a 40t wheeled chassis.
And as Hellbie said, the spare weapons pods DO cost more . . . IIRC it is something like 15% of a weapon's cost to 'pod' it even if you buy the weapon system or salvage it. And it takes time to take that Armstrong AC telemetry link and fit it to the pod so the pod's universal plug & play system can use it on an Omni's fire control computer.
Also, you really are not getting the value of an Omni if you are not hauling around one or two different weapons configurations- which adds to the cost. And IMO some spare pods so you can rig things up.
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The idea is that you are not spending that much more to pod the weapons. Now I currently a little out of pocket and I will not be able to fully research cost until tomorrow at the earliest. With that said, with your Omni-Mechs carrying multiple weapon configurations, you have a built in excess capacity that you are physically unable to field, this is one place that could field these weapons and not leave them as ballast. Is this a perfect solution, by no means is it a perfect solution, it is one possibility. The ability to rapidly reconfigure from an ambusher, to a sniper, to various flavors of support fire to even a cargo truck if I need it now is not a bad capacity to have in a second line/support unit, a capacity that cost an extra ~166,000 C-Bills, (roughly speaking).
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I think you are mistaking the Hetzer for an MBT, I can assure you that will only get you a dead vehicle. You will have to think differently to be effective. The opportunity here is that you get to inject some uncertainty into your opponent as to what he is facing...the actions to deal with an AC/20 are entirely inappropriate when you find out you are facing a Gauss Rifle.
I was thinking of a turretless vehicle like the Hetzer, not a true MBT. The lack of a turret lets you concentrate the armor more and buys you a fair amount of pod space at the cost of reduced flexibility in your firing arcs, and it will be able to do anything the Hetzer could do better thanks to the extra pod space and armor.
The idea is that you are not spending that much more to pod the weapons. Now I currently a little out of pocket and I will not be able to fully research cost until tomorrow at the earliest. With that said, with your Omni-Mechs carrying multiple weapon configurations, you have a built in excess capacity that you are physically unable to field, this is one place that could field these weapons and not leave them as ballast. Is this a perfect solution, by no means is it a perfect solution, it is one possibility. The ability to rapidly reconfigure from an ambusher, to a sniper, to various flavors of support fire to even a cargo truck if I need it now is not a bad capacity to have in a second line/support unit, a capacity that cost an extra ~166,000 C-Bills, (roughly speaking).
The problem with this thinking is that you then need to haul around even more omni pods to keep the Hetzer in the field or plan on having it fall out of service when you run out of useful things to put in it. Really the only thing you could count on using it as is an APC, but it is frankly terrible in that roll with its thin armor, low ground speed, and poor off road performance so it would be nothing more than a way to haul infantry most of the way to the front, and that is an enormous waste of resources when you could make a separate support vehicle to do the job better and probably still come out cheaper than the 166,000 C-Bills (what was the cost of the old Flatbed Truck?) you want to spend on an omni frame.
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Well, the battle armor taxi idea is at least something I can get behind. It's still awfully slow for the job, but it's fast enough to get a squad of whatevers to the field faster than they can move, anyway. Not all BA have the magnetic clamps like the Fa Shih, after all. Still, I think I'd rather leave the job to something faster moving if possible, like the Bandit.
You're starting to help me see where you're coming from, though. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but I'm at least intrigued by what you're thinking here.
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You could switch to a fuel cell on tracks for not much extra cost, that'd mitigate some of the maneuverability, if not speed, issues.
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Like many have said, it's a cheap, straitforward box of toys and little else. It's a style that I like aesthetically, though I'd implement it a bit more caricaturistically if it were up to me.
For those of us watching the debate at home, how much does a dedicated vehicle for hauling toads (and/or squishies, for that matter) cost if it's of appropriately minimalist style to match the Hetzer? How does its BA-carrying capacity per C-Bill compare to omnifying the Hetzers?
As for adding uncertainty re: loadout, in the case of something that's meant to be used in groups anyway and shouldn't be seen until it's ready to attack, what makes omnivehicles better at hiding their loadouts than standard vehicles? (I've exactly zero double-blind experience.)
If no rules exist for there being a difference between standard and omni for this, my fiction-oriented perspective is that I imagine it would be more appropriate for Quikscell to just encase everything in the same nondescript box, so that all variants look the same until the door on the front slides open. If I fail to kill my target I expect my whole lance will likely be flanked and destroyed, so if I even get to worry that the enemy might be able to later recognise a particular Hetzer by its body damage I'll consider myself rather lucky to still have it at all. Even in that case, I'd probably rather have a fifth Hetzer than have the ability to change loadouts, since Hetzers are already confined to narrow range of uses by their mobility and armor AND, to my eye at least, they look like they're meant to be used in groups.
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An Arrow IV Variant would probably do a good job there. Then again, might as well use regulators, so meh.
I don't think at the given speed transport is a good idea?
I mean, depending on terrain the actual BA might not be much slower.
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I don't think at the given speed transport is a good idea?
I mean, depending on terrain the actual BA might not be much slower.
I am with you on this. 4/6 is fine for a larger IFV which has the guns and armor to wade into the thick of things before dropping off the infantry and slugging it out with the enemy, but the Hetzer is a long way from a real IFV and 4/6 is nothing but a bad joke for an APC.
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Like many have said, it's a cheap, straitforward box of toys and little else. It's a style that I like aesthetically, though I'd implement it a bit more caricaturistically if it were up to me.
For those of us watching the debate at home, how much does a dedicated vehicle for hauling toads (and/or squishies, for that matter) cost if it's of appropriately minimalist style to match the Hetzer? How does its BA-carrying capacity per C-Bill compare to omnifying the Hetzers?
Cost to modify a standard Hetzer with an AC/20 loadout is 166,000, comparing that to a wheeled HAPC that has been "Omni-ified"(MG's only, and the 6 ton infantry bay), the total costs are 149,645 and change, stock is 119,717...as a Battle taxi this is better for moving units, but has to rely on the "Kobold defense®" to avoid not being flaming wreckage...there are possibilities with that 6 ton bay as well...might be on to something....
As for adding uncertainty re: loadout, in the case of something that's meant to be used in groups anyway and shouldn't be seen until it's ready to attack, what makes omnivehicles better at hiding their loadouts than standard vehicles? (I've exactly zero double-blind experience.)
My thought/experience with this is more anecdotal, Many years ago I had to set up an OPFOR unit in a level 1 game, I for get what constraints I had as to BV but the units I picked were all variants, the HBK-4H, a CNT-9AH, I think a Jenner 7F. It turned out to be one of the more fun games we had as none of the opposing mechs acted like their base models..not game breaking but a little shocking when at 15 hexes you hear "OK, the Hunchback is firing", suddenly your assumptions go out the window. Today with active probes and ECM, you can still get that little bit of a Tempo Point because until the unit fires, you may not know exactly what you are facing, that's not supposed to happen...especially if you assume and don't ask. :-)
If no rules exist for there being a difference between standard and omni for this, my fiction-oriented perspective is that I imagine it would be more appropriate for Quikscell to just encase everything in the same nondescript box, so that all variants look the same until the door on the front slides open. If I fail to kill my target I expect my whole lance will likely be flanked and destroyed, so if I even get to worry that the enemy might be able to later recognise a particular Hetzer by its body damage I'll consider myself rather lucky to still have it at all. Even in that case, I'd probably rather have a fifth Hetzer than have the ability to change loadouts, since Hetzers are already confined to narrow range of uses by their mobility and armor AND, to my eye at least, they look like they're meant to be used in groups.
I would say that is an equally valid point of view..the Hetzer does well in mass, anything subtracting from that mass reduces combat power. personally i would make the Hetzer kinda of the Universal Weapon Carrier and just sell everything and every type of armament option out there.
P.S. Try running the 2 LRM-15 variant, people don't shoot it as much...cheep too.
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Even that LRM version, I just don't see any advantages for it (other than era availability) over the 3054 upgrade to the Hunter- the tracks give it better mobility in the standard battlefield, the LRMs have Artemis included, and the armor is only slightly less.
I've long believed that, much like the Hunchback, doing something with a Hetzer other than strapping an AC-20 style weapon to it is a crime against the vehicle. Much like the Urbanmech, it has one job- and it does it well. Trying to get it to do other things may work, but isn't worth modding the Hetzer compared to just finding something else to do the other job. In this case, the Hunter is simply a better choice- and probably cheaper in the end- than buying a Hetzer and modding it.
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Even that LRM version, I just don't see any advantages for it (other than era availability) over the 3054 upgrade to the Hunter- the tracks give it better mobility in the standard battlefield, the LRMs have Artemis included, and the armor is only slightly less.
I've long believed that, much like the Hunchback, doing something with a Hetzer other than strapping an AC-20 style weapon to it is a crime against the vehicle. Much like the Urbanmech, it has one job- and it does it well. Trying to get it to do other things may work, but isn't worth modding the Hetzer compared to just finding something else to do the other job. In this case, the Hunter is simply a better choice- and probably cheaper in the end- than buying a Hetzer and modding it.
I think that people who can get Hunters don't need Hetzers. Rest will do with whatever they can get like Hetzers.
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I think that people who can get Hunters don't need Hetzers.
I would disagree, and say you'd want Hetzers to protect the Hunters. It's like seeding a Hunchback in an Archer lance, or like peanut butter and chocolate.
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Even that LRM version, I just don't see any advantages for it (other than era availability) over the 3054 upgrade to the Hunter- the tracks give it better mobility in the standard battlefield, the LRMs have Artemis included, and the armor is only slightly less.
I've long believed that, much like the Hunchback, doing something with a Hetzer other than strapping an AC-20 style weapon to it is a crime against the vehicle. Much like the Urbanmech, it has one job- and it does it well. Trying to get it to do other things may work, but isn't worth modding the Hetzer compared to just finding something else to do the other job. In this case, the Hunter is simply a better choice- and probably cheaper in the end- than buying a Hetzer and modding it.
Your ammo bins are nowhere near as deep, you have 8 rounds per launcher, the Artemis IV is ballast if you are not using compatible missiles, your cost of acquisition is higher and being Artemis IV you need line of sight to the target, and conversely the target gets line of sight to you. I would rather go with a 3026 Hunter, it is a much better vehicle...and cheaper too.
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err... You do know Hetzers are city fighters while Hunters are open field, right?
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err... You do know Hetzers are city fighters while Hunters are open field, right?
If you're strapping LRM racks on it instead of the AC, I'd say you're not planning on urban combat anymore.
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That Hetzer crew in 'To Ride the Chimera' was pretty sobering.
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I would disagree, and say you'd want Hetzers to protect the Hunters. It's like seeding a Hunchback in an Archer lance, or like peanut butter and chocolate.
They might buy a Rommel. IIRC both are built in the same factory. Or maybe an Assault Hunter.
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I posted an MML model on the combat vehicles forum awhile ago that was cheap and functional. The MML might work better then the Omni or the LRM models.
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I posted an MML model on the combat vehicles forum awhile ago that was cheap and functional. The MML might work better then the Omni or the LRM models.
Now THAT I might go for. I miss the hole-punching ability, but a face-full of SRMs still sucks to end up with. And with the ability to throw long-range, the tank gains some utility down the street in addition to the usual alley-ambushes the Hetzer excels at.
You have my attention. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. ;D
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it can be found here (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27134.0.html)
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If you're strapping LRM racks on it instead of the AC, I'd say you're not planning on urban combat anymore.
Or not. It just means you need to bring more PBIs with you. LRMs are great in urban combat. Lots of LOS-blocking terrain...LOS-ignoring weapon. Perfect match.
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Or not. It just means you need to bring more PBIs with you. LRMs are great in urban combat. Lots of LOS-blocking terrain...LOS-ignoring weapon. Perfect match.
And I would agree, from minefields dropping out of the sky to smoke where other people don't want it...and more, the LRM has a place in urban combat.
They might buy a Rommel. IIRC both are built in the same factory. Or maybe an Assault Hunter.
a Rommel is nearly 3 million c-bills, the cost of that vehicle alone buys a lance of 3 standard Hetzer and one LRM Hetzer, the Hunter variant has the virtue of being faster and roughly half the price of the Rommel.
I posted an MML model on the combat vehicles forum awhile ago that was cheap and functional. The MML might work better then the Omni or the LRM models.
This....this is nice. {edited to comply with the particular subforum rules...sorry about that, my bad}
What we are seeing here with these examples is that the Hetzer can be more than just a rolling AC/20 that has to get shot before you do. We haven't even got to "obvious" variants with the Gauss Rifle or the Arrow IV, and believe me there can be even more surprises in your cereal for creative minds. The joy of the Hetzer, as was stated at page one, it is a great basis for a fleet of vehicles. (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,14380.msg333484.html#msg333484) designed to sell heavy weapons. With that said, do not make the mistake that the Hetzer is a tank, it isn't, it's a motorized gun carriage, one that needs to be part of a plan and not the plan itself.
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Guys, if you're discussing someone's posted design, do it in that thread. Not in here.
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George of the Jungle says: "If George want cheap LRM support, George not use Hetzer, George use LRM carrier."
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George of the Jungle says: "If George want cheap LRM support, George not use Hetzer, George use LRM carrier."
George must like spending all of his cash, 2 Hetzer LRM is cheaper than an LRM Carrier . Throw weight is identical, but Hetzer has better endurance and is arguably more survivable.
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George must like spending all of his cash, 2 Hetzer LRM is cheaper than an LRM Carrier . Throw weight is identical, but Hetzer has better endurance and is arguably more survivable.
And the Hetzer can't enter light woods and has smaller individual guns
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The LRM Carrier also has a turret so it can fire as it runs away (for limited definitions of the word "run").
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The LRM Carrier also has a turret so it can fire as it runs away (for limited definitions of the word "run").
Actually, it doesn't. LRM and SRM carriers are like big semi-mobile claymores. They should all have "this side toward enemy" painted on the front.
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Actually, it doesn't. LRM and SRM carriers are like big semi-mobile claymores. They should all have "this side toward enemy" painted on the front.
The Heavy Carrier does. :)
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Ninja'd, see above.
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SRM carriers have turrets.
"While its chassis is identical to its LRM counterpart, the SRM Carrier mounts ten SRM-6 launchers in its turret. "
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier
as does the Light SRM carriers.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_SRM_Carrier
I just love using Hetzers in urban combat, especially with supporting infantry and Double Blind Rules.
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SRM carriers have turrets.
"While its chassis is identical to its LRM counterpart, the SRM Carrier mounts ten SRM-6 launchers in its turret. "
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier
Sarna is using a turn of phrase, not a technically accurate description. the 60-ton weapons carriers do not have turrets.
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I would say that is an equally valid point of view..the Hetzer does well in mass, anything subtracting from that mass reduces combat power. personally i would make the Hetzer kinda of the Universal Weapon Carrier and just sell everything and every type of armament option out there.
I see it and the Quikscell missile carriers similarly. If it were up to me, they and whatever other "FRONT TOWARD ENEMY" vehicles Quikscell makes would be streamlined into a set covering the motive types just like the generic APC vehicles do, except instead all using the same standardised weapons fittings. There'd be a "heavy" chassis or two (not sure whether there should be wheeled, tracked, or both) carrying exactly any two of the smaller carriers' weapons fittings. (mix or match) I started something along those lines for use as a "standard" carrier chassis for most purposes, so I just put what I have in the appropriate subforum for linking (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,31728.0.html) here. I also added a wonky variant for flavour.
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Having looked at the relative weights, I agree with using omni technology with the hetzer would be a good idea, albeit one that only uses big guns, as to replace a single massive weapon system with a bunch of smaller ones isn't true to the original spirit of the design.
The primary reason is that because the MRM-40 (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MRM-40) weighs 2 tons less than the AC/20, but both have very similar ranges, so you can pair two Omni-Hetzers (Omnizers?) - one to punch holes and one to sandblast. The MRM hetzer, with 7 tons of ammunition, costs only 43,750 C-bills more than the AC/20 version (adjusted for omni-tech cost modifier), which means that it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Having done some calculations based on the Sarna enry for it, the Omnizer costs 830,000 C-bills, which is a significant cost increase, but not unaffordable. The MRM omnizer costs 873,750, so the pair runs you to roughly 1,704,000 c-bills. For 4 Omnizers, you can get 5 Hetzers, so theoretically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester's_laws) the hetzers will be more effective as they have superior numbers, but the Omnizers put out more raw damage, and can work together to do more damage overall due to the complementary nature of their weapons.]
You could even keep the 5 tons of armour, and just chuck on a modular armour kit and a TAG system to allow it to spot for that Arrow IV Omnizer that you have 5 maps away. I think I'm getting carried away now, so I'll stop here.
Whilst some of these musings might belong on a seperate thread for Hetzer designs, I put them here to demonstrate that an Omnizer is a viable idea, if maybe one that would be resisted due to Quickscell's reputation - some might not trust them to actually have the omni-pods be interchangable. Another benefit of omni pods is that if your gun gets damages, it's quicker to change and doesn't require a full vehicle workshop, and you can change your Omnizer's job depending on the enemy you expect to face.
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Did you remember to only apply to wieght based mark-up to the base vehicle and not the pods, Maskerade?
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Actually, it doesn't. LRM and SRM carriers are like big semi-mobile claymores. They should all have "this side toward enemy" painted on the front.
Where do you put in a request at CamoSpecs again?
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SRM carriers have turrets.
"While its chassis is identical to its LRM counterpart, the SRM Carrier mounts ten SRM-6 launchers in its turret. "
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier
as does the Light SRM carriers.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_SRM_Carrier
Unfortunately the record sheets and stats disagree with sarna.net. Doesn't make me love 'em any less though.
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Actually the Light SRM Carrier does have a turret . . . but the regular is a box-ish claymore as described.
. . . mmm claymores . . .
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Or not. It just means you need to bring more PBIs with you. LRMs are great in urban combat. Lots of LOS-blocking terrain...LOS-ignoring weapon. Perfect match.
I'd rather 'Mech Mortars, don't actually NEED something to do the spotting, still do full damage to infantry in building and the AOE effect of anti-personal rounds is useful against BA
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I'd rather 'Mech Mortars, don't actually NEED something to do the spotting, still do full damage to infantry in building and the AOE effect of anti-personal rounds is useful against BA
Hetzers are typically a defense unit, so IDF LRMs and Mortars might not be all that popular... After all it's most likely your own town you're blowing up!
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Did you remember to only apply to wieght based mark-up to the base vehicle and not the pods, Maskerade?
I went looking at Tech Manual page 285, specifically costing the Hephaestus where they show the prime configuration getting the omni multiplier. If there is an errata I cannot find that would be awesome as it would make an omni Hetzer about 4,000 C-Bills cheaper than standard.
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Hetzers are typically a defense unit, so IDF LRMs and Mortars might not be all that popular... After all it's most likely your own town you're blowing up!
I'm not exactly popular shooting holes in my own house when people break in, but spackle is cheap and I still have my house when I am through...the point being that being defensive means you don't have a choice when the enemy comes, the enemy gets that choice. Unless you want to surrender the city to "spare them the damage" you are giving up the terrain the Hetzer functions most effectively in.
Sometimes you have a choice, other times that choice is forced upon you.
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Guys, take the OmniHetzer debate to Fan Designs. Fan Articles is for commentary and review of canon material, not discussing hypothetical variants in depth.
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Am I the only one that has noticed that the LRM variant is the only vehicle packing heavy LRM firepower in the sub-50 ton space pre-clans?
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http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1579/hunter-light-support-tank-standard
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The Hunter only has a single LRM-20, while the Hetzer (LRM) has 2 X LRM 15, the same as the Catapult, one of the classic Missile Boats
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That's only 10 fewer missiles. There's also the upgraded Hunter, which has paired -15 racks with Artemis IV.
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It's a matter of taste. I think the Hunter's added speed and mobility make it a superior overall combatant, but for force multiplication via funky ammo, the Hetzer's greater number of racks means it can affect larger areas faster.
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Comparing an ICE powered gun carriage to a fusion powered one...
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Compared to the standard Hunter, the LRM Hetzer yields speed, terrain handling, and...oh, right, that rear-mounted flamer...but has half again as many missile tubes and slightly greater ammo endurance. Its wheeled chassis makes it decidedly more of an urban fighter in my book given all the terrain types it can't handle that tracks can, but on the right battlefield it has a clear edge in throw-weight.
Aside from not being "pre-Clan" anymore anyway, the 3054 upgrade version of the Hunter ironically starts to look actually more similar to exactly this Hetzer than to the original Hunter -- it's no longer faster than the Hetzer, its armor is thinner (which wasn't the case before), and the cost of its Artemis systems is that it can carry only eight shots per rack. It's still tracked and lacks an explosive fuel tank critical hit due to its still-present fusion engine, but by this point the LRM Hetzer starts to look downright appealing otherwise.
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Speaking of the Hetzer, are there any variants that are equipped with Sniper Artillery Cannon? It just seems like a logical fit...
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Speaking of the Hetzer, are there any variants that are equipped with Sniper Artillery Cannon? It just seems like a logical fit...
I can picture the cannon propelling the vehicle the opposite direction when it's first fired. ;D
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Speaking of the Hetzer, are there any variants that are equipped with Sniper Artillery Cannon? It just seems like a logical fit...
No canon artillery or artillery cannon variants I'm aware of.
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Speaking of the Hetzer, are there any variants that are equipped with Sniper Artillery Cannon? It just seems like a logical fit...
;D
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;D
I take it as a good thing, then. :)
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Quoted the wrong post. Meant to say this:
I can picture the cannon propelling the vehicle the opposite direction when it's first fired. ;D
;D
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A friend of mine used a selfmade Hetzer variant with a Sniper Cannon some time ago. He even made a mini of it (he cut down a barrel from a Marksmen and glued it to the front of the Hetzer).
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Maybe a Thumper, but a Sniper? there be no room for ammo, even if the armor was shaved to half its original.
A 15 ton Thumper with 3 tons of ammo and 4 tons of armor is doable.
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Maybe a Thumper, but a Sniper? there be no room for ammo, even if the armor was shaved to half its original.
A 15 ton Thumper with 3 tons of ammo and 4 tons of armor is doable.
A Sniper Artillery Cannon, not a Sniper Artillery Piece. It only weights 15 tons.
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Proper use of a Hetzer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynaptcHCsg)
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Never been much a fan of the Hetzer. For AC/20 fun i usually prefer the speedy Saladin or a Demolisher for double the fun. As far as the LRM version the Hunter (Ammo) variant has always been my go to vee in light support vehicles.
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Proper use of a Hetzer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynaptcHCsg)
it's too bad we never got a tracked version of the hetzer in BT. sure, wheeled has it;'s advantages in urban fighting, but given the preference for non-urban fighting in the setting, you'd think someone would have started making 'open field' hetzers using a tracked chassis and maybe a longer ranged gun (like say an AC10).
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it's too bad we never got a tracked version of the hetzer in BT. sure, wheeled has it;'s advantages in urban fighting, but given the preference for non-urban fighting in the setting, you'd think someone would have started making 'open field' hetzers using a tracked chassis and maybe a longer ranged gun (like say an AC10).
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6442/predator-tank-destroyer-original
You were saying?
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Took a while but yeah what he said . . .
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Proper use of a Hetzer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynaptcHCsg)
How the hezter with her friends take on a big bad assault [superheavy] tank. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiIQ2zTwguc)
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I'm going to need make a unit based on Girls and Panzers after this.
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I love fielding Hetzers -- for their cost, they bring a surprising amount of usefulness to the field.
That said, you have to remember that there are reasons these vehicles are so inexpensive. You do get what you pay for --- although in Battletech, that isn't always true --- you can pay huge BV points for a Hellstar and watch an opponent's Pack Hunter take it's head off on turn 2 of a game, prior to you hitting anything, as of yet.
However, with the Hetzer, the points are far more in line with what you get, and what is costs to lose the unit. And you will lose some, as they tend to get more attention than they may warrant, due to the AC/20. And they also tend to get pillboxed frequently enough, that the limited arc of fire can be hurtful.
On the other hand, they do bring an AC/20 to the field, and they do it at a cost that begs for it to be spammed.
As to the other variants, the LRM is the only other one I use -- and it is surprisingly useful..... being far more useful in most games, that would be apparent at first glance. For one thing, as has been pointed out, you get the LRM throw weight of a Catapult or Crusader, at the same general ground speed, but at a good chunk less than half the BV2 cost, and it has better ammo endurance. Now, you do have some terrain restrictions, but you also have the option of indirect fire, and a long enough range, you can fire from those areas you can get to. Lastly, this design is great for helping to offset the cost of TAG units on the field, or for carrying out specialty ammo, and acting as a support unit, to provide smoke, or minefields, as needed.
And while the Hunter is better in some areas, it is also more expensive, and sometimes, those extra points can make a big difference elsewhere, when building a unit. They both have their place... and neither is superior to the other.
Nahuris
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Another advantage for the LRM Hetzer is the four tons of ammo. You can lay a lot of minefields with two tons of Thunders ...
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The Hetzer is one of those designs I think we should see lots of tinkering with, we have several L1 versions that IMO should be updated . . . LB-10X for the AC/10, maybe some MMLs for the SRM version. Especially with a FCE swap.
Do we know if they are really still being produced into the 3140s? The only thing I can think of is the Mansu-ra FWL story bit where a single plain Hetzer tackled a Andurien lance, scoring I think two mission kills before it was wrecked.
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I honestly can't see the Hetzer being phased out of production, given how cheap it is.
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Why it exist in the first place, cheap mobile gun.
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With the scramble for equipment in the 3130s? No, Quikscell should have been booming . . . and a Hetzer could actually have been a main combatant against some of the converted IndiMechs we saw in action (or still seeing . . . ). Just with everything that happened in the LyrCom, who controls where it is made? Does the League have anywhere that actually built it?
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With the scramble for equipment in the 3130s? No, Quikscell should have been booming . . . and a Hetzer could actually have been a main combatant against some of the converted IndiMechs we saw in action (or still seeing . . . ). Just with everything that happened in the LyrCom, who controls where it is made? Does the League have anywhere that actually built it?
Considering it's so cheap and been made for so long, I'm sure you can find the little tank everywhere.
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Not asking if it is still in inventories, more about where it is made . . . and is it still being pumped out there to the open market.
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The Quickscell Company produces them on two planets: Kalidasa, Layover. Layover was hit hard during the Jihad but it only seemed to slow down production. Kalidasa has changed hands multiple times (FWL->WoB->RotS->independent->Wolf Empire) It hasn't seem to slow down production at all though I'm not sure what the Wolfs Empire trade policies.
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Hetzer is basically an IKEA tank. comes in a kit, assemble it yourself, always have parts left over. i'd be real surprised if you could mess up production enough to stop it being made.
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Hetzers come in boxes that say "some assembly required, batteries not included."
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Honestly, given how cheaply the Hetzer is generally acknowledged to be built in the fiction (dubious leftover parts after assembly and all), even if Quikscell went out of business tomorrow I'm positive there'd still be other firms churning out unlicensed knockoffs and original just-about-copies (how hard can "put armored box on wheels, stick big gun out front" get for anyone already manufacturing military vehicles, anyway?) that would work out to basically identical vehicles for tabletop purposes.
Until the BT battlefield itself changes thoroughly enough to make the concept of tanks (and probably 'Mechs) itself obsolete, I'm not too worried about the basic design's future.
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The Quickscell Company produces them on two planets: Kalidasa, Layover. Layover was hit hard during the Jihad but it only seemed to slow down production. Kalidasa has changed hands multiple times (FWL->WoB->RotS->independent->Wolf Empire) It hasn't seem to slow down production at all though I'm not sure what the Wolfs Empire trade policies.
I don't think the Empire trades military hardware. They need everything with the rate they are aggressively expanding their Touman.
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I'm going to need make a unit based on Girls and Panzers after this.
Drakensis started a fanfic based on that. It's over on Spacebattles (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/kik%C5%8D-sent%C5%8D-bt-gup-si.331451/). Hasn't been updated in a while unfortunately. :'(
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The Hetzer is one of those designs I think we should see lots of tinkering with, we have several L1 versions that IMO should be updated . . . LB-10X for the AC/10, maybe some MMLs for the SRM version. Especially with a FCE swap.
Do we know if they are really still being produced into the 3140s? The only thing I can think of is the Mansu-ra FWL story bit where a single plain Hetzer tackled a Andurien lance, scoring I think two mission kills before it was wrecked.
The Colonial Tractors plant in the Fronc Reaches was churning out Hetzers after the Jihad, and with the Interstellar Arms plant in the Fronc Reaches continuing to produce Vedettes in the 3140s, I'd be surprised if Colonial Tractors wasn't also still producing Hetzers.
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given it's quikcell, do you think the plant on Broken Wheel in the filtvelt coalition has the ability to put out Hetzers?during the Jihad it was upgraded to produce Pegasus hovertanks and Light Thunderbolt carriers, with post-jihad upgrades to also make LRM and SRM carriers, and manticores.
given how Filtvelt became a big financial center, Quikcell further expanding their broken wheel plant by 3145 might make sense.
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Don't forget that the Taurian Light SRM Carrier is essentially a Hetzer with a turret, I'd say getting one or a clone should be downright easy.
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Don't forget that the Taurian Light SRM Carrier is essentially a Hetzer with a turret, I'd say getting one or a clone should be downright easy.
given that quikcell also builds the Light Thunderbolt Carrier (a light SRm carrier mounting Tbolt-5's instead of SRM's) i'd not be surprised if the light carrier uses a hetzer chassis.
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Does the League have anywhere that actually built it?
The Kalidasa facility wasn't affected by the Jihad.
TT
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given that quikcell also builds the Light Thunderbolt Carrier (a light SRm carrier mounting Tbolt-5's instead of SRM's) i'd not be surprised if the light carrier uses a hetzer chassis.
Well, the Light SRM Carrier was a Canopian invention . . .
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The Light SRM Carrier is a Taurian invention.
TR3060's writeup on the heavy LRM carrier states "When Pinard Protectorates Limited of the Taurian Concordat announces its plans to create a new "lighter" SRM carrier...."
Also the Light SRM Carrier page in the same book has Pinard as the same manufacturer.
Periphery 2nd Edition doesn't state exactly who designed the new vehicles, but TR3060 does.
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Sorry, yeah it was the MoC's Periphery co-op program that started the actions.
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Look - at Bovington Tank Museum they have a funky 1:1 scale Hetzer model