Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun  (Read 45774 times)

Terrace

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #60 on: 17 February 2013, 12:55:59 »
This thing is basically a pint-sized Demolisher. You gotta respect the sheer firepower of an AC/20, no matter the era.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #61 on: 17 February 2013, 14:05:23 »
And in later eras you can fill the beast with AP rounds.  ;D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #62 on: 17 February 2013, 17:40:19 »
This thing is basically a pint-sized Demolisher. You gotta respect the sheer firepower of an AC/20, no matter the era.

Aff.  Even a Clansman respects the AC/20, 'primative' though it may be...  (Compared to the Ultra AC/20 built in the homeworlds that is.)


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #63 on: 18 February 2013, 02:12:45 »
I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #64 on: 18 February 2013, 11:58:48 »
I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.

i can see a lot of problems with that for Quikscell, Monkeys are very social and would be quick to unionize for one. i bet they use warthogs.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #65 on: 18 February 2013, 22:12:52 »
You mean like this . . . ?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #66 on: 18 February 2013, 22:29:35 »
You mean like this . . . ?



"Gentleman, as the Quikscell Representatives for your system, we can assure you our products will perform splendidly for your milita and these "rumors" of their suspensions having corrosion issues in mildly acidic climates like your swamps you claim to have heard are slander by our competitors.  Now if you'd like to come inside and we can discuss the contract-"
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #67 on: 15 March 2013, 10:22:08 »
I want to say that 'primative' AC/20s aren't made by monkeys except in Quikscell's case, they might well be.

A shame they also got their hands on UAC and versions as well.  While they improve the performance, it does poke at the fun of a Hetzer being the cheapest thing possible.

But I do love the Hetzer.  It's a perfect combined arms tank.  Not good enough to win by spamming, not bad enough to be ignored.  It's a brutally simple design but requires more finese than the simplicity of the design would suggest.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #68 on: 26 July 2013, 06:55:55 »
The one variant not noted is the actual original Hetzer- which was notable in that it was a -drone-.

Yes, the first writeup for our boxy-good budget gun was robotically controlled (noted as the Furbish Robocheck). Other than that quirk, the stats are identical to the TRO 3039 version in every way. (Dragon #114, M. Weis & K. Stein authors)
This is actually the nastiest of all Hetzer's, at least when it was first released, the drone rules basically allow you to make an experienced crew spread around further

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #69 on: 28 July 2013, 09:28:04 »
After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....

Omni Hetzer

Let it roll around your head a while.



Edited for spelling
« Last Edit: 28 July 2013, 09:29:39 by tomaddamz »
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #70 on: 28 July 2013, 11:22:41 »
After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....

Omni Hetzer

Let it roll around your head a while.



Edited for spelling

I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.

I'm always open to new ideas though, so if you can show me what role an Omni-Hetzer serves I'm open to hearing it.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #71 on: 28 July 2013, 12:34:33 »
After briefly reading this thread, I have only two words to say.....

Omni Hetzer

Let it roll around your head a while.



Edited for spelling


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #72 on: 28 July 2013, 12:43:22 »
I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.

Let's be fair here, Hellbie.  Quality control went out the window when you decided to buy from QuikScell.  All the Omni conversion would do is make the whole process even more random in terms of what goes wrong, like hooking up an ECM suite suddenly bombarding everyone's tactical channels with TeleTubby reruns.  Including the Hetzer's.  Actually, knowing QuikScell, only the Hetzer's.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #73 on: 28 July 2013, 12:44:59 »
Let's be fair here, Hellbie.  Quality control went out the window when you decided to buy from QuikScell.  All the Omni conversion would do is make the whole process even more random in terms of what goes wrong, like hooking up an ECM suite suddenly bombarding everyone's tactical channels with TeleTubby reruns.  Including the Hetzer's.  Actually, knowing QuikScell, only the Hetzer's.

I will take a Dozen Teletubby Cannons:  the deadliest weapon not used by the Blakists.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #74 on: 28 July 2013, 14:30:08 »
I'm rolling, but I'm not seeing why a unit designed to be a cheap-as-hell rolling assault cannon needs to have Omni-tech added to it. It's not really supposed to be much more than a way to get a powerful gun into an ambush position (or a slow advance, if you really need it)- and anything beyond 'big gun on four wheels', including quality control, goes out the window.

I'm always open to new ideas though, so if you can show me what role an Omni-Hetzer serves I'm open to hearing it.
  Look at the already existing variants, the Hetzer is a box...with 18 tons of stuff that you can cram into it. Those 18 tons of stuff may be an AC/20 with 20 rounds, it could be 2 LRM-15s with 16 rounds per launcher...or even something else nobody has built yet, what you get with an Omni- Hetzer is a box of surprises, throw in one with ECM and now it's a lance of I don't know and maybe I don't want to go to contact too early to find out.  The excitement doesn't stop there, Battlearmor can ride an Omni-Vehicle, now your Ambusher/Fire Support can haul spotters/security element (BA are great for securing flanks and sweeping pesky infantry).  Lastly, what I feel is the best part is...the cost of acquisition for the added capability is not ridiculously high. ( I am away from my source material but I am "kinda confident" that IIRC the total costs for the upgrade is 10% of the entire unit costs, so ~70K per vehicle a 25% cost bump is kinda high, but is only 166,000 more per vehicle is not a dealbreaker)

Thanks for the intel, Scotty.
Edited for clarity®
« Last Edit: 28 July 2013, 14:51:35 by tomaddamz »
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #75 on: 28 July 2013, 14:40:11 »
Omni-fication is a 25% cost bump.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #76 on: 28 July 2013, 15:02:10 »
That cost also doesn't include the pods, which isn't as simple as yanking a couple of LRM-15s off an old ruined Trebuchet and calling it an 'A' variant. You need the pods- which, I recall, are more expensive than the usual weapons- and you'll need to make sure you have at least a few of them handy to make the new pod system worthwhile (why bring an LB-20X Prime config if you don't have the pods to make an LRM version, an artillery version, etc.?).

And again, we're not talking a vehicle that is particularly utilitarian. Wheels, so it's not that great off the urban streets. Slow, so it's not like it's going to get much of anywhere even in the best of circumstances. Armored like a cardboard box everywhere but the front. To me, we have a block of thin armor on wheels with a BFG on the front, and if we're lucky it works. Adding Omni-tech just increases costs for a marginal unit- to me, the funds would be better used on a unit more capable of joining a battlefield and operating on bad terrain, like the Vedette or Manticore.
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tomaddamz

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #77 on: 28 July 2013, 15:51:00 »
That cost also doesn't include the pods, which isn't as simple as yanking a couple of LRM-15s off an old ruined Trebuchet and calling it an 'A' variant. You need the pods- which, I recall, are more expensive than the usual weapons- and you'll need to make sure you have at least a few of them handy to make the new pod system worthwhile (why bring an LB-20X Prime config if you don't have the pods to make an LRM version, an artillery version, etc.?).

And again, we're not talking a vehicle that is particularly utilitarian. Wheels, so it's not that great off the urban streets. Slow, so it's not like it's going to get much of anywhere even in the best of circumstances. Armored like a cardboard box everywhere but the front. To me, we have a block of thin armor on wheels with a BFG on the front, and if we're lucky it works. Adding Omni-tech just increases costs for a marginal unit- to me, the funds would be better used on a unit more capable of joining a battlefield and operating on bad terrain, like the Vedette or Manticore.
Actually, the cost quoted does include the weapons, in the quoted case this is the base Hetzer with the AC/20 and 20 rounds.   Tragically, it is more expensive with the paired LRM-15s.

The joy of increasing the costs on this marginal unit is that you think of this unit as a way to self deploy/haul extra pods for Mechs...it's a box, a nice big box.  Compared to a Vedette which is not that big (10.5 tons total fraction that it can haul, and a marginally higher cost), or the Manticore adding over 660K C-Bills to the costs of the base unit (armed).  Simply cutting off weapons and "making" a new variant occupies much more time and more risk of failure.  Lastly for 166,000 you now have a "casual" Battlearmor APC which is a surprisingly handy thing to have in a support unit.

   

Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #78 on: 28 July 2013, 15:56:15 »
If you want a box to carry guns, you are better off with a tracked heavy or assault frame with thick armor.  You can get a lot more firepower and armor to let it serve as a line unit unlike the thin skinned Hetzer.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #79 on: 28 July 2013, 17:14:57 »
If you want a box to carry guns, you are better off with a tracked heavy or assault frame with thick armor.  You can get a lot more firepower and armor to let it serve as a line unit unlike the thin skinned Hetzer.
I think you are mistaking the Hetzer for an MBT, I can assure you that will only get you a dead vehicle.  You will have to think differently to be effective.  The opportunity
here is that you get to inject some uncertainty into your opponent as to what he is facing...the actions to deal with an AC/20 are entirely inappropriate when you find out you are facing a Gauss Rifle.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #80 on: 28 July 2013, 18:00:17 »
No, his point was if you are going to SPEND the money on an Omni you are better off doing it for something heavy (more armor and structure) and tracked (more survivable and able to go more places) rather than a 40t wheeled chassis.

And as Hellbie said, the spare weapons pods DO cost more . . . IIRC it is something like 15% of a weapon's cost to 'pod' it even if you buy the weapon system or salvage it.  And it takes time to take that Armstrong AC telemetry link and fit it to the pod so the pod's universal plug & play system can use it on an Omni's fire control computer.

Also, you really are not getting the value of an Omni if you are not hauling around one or two different weapons configurations- which adds to the cost.  And IMO some spare pods so you can rig things up.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #81 on: 28 July 2013, 18:43:05 »
The idea is that you are not spending that much more to pod the weapons.  Now I currently a little out of pocket and I will not be able to fully research cost until tomorrow at the earliest.  With that said, with your Omni-Mechs carrying multiple weapon configurations, you have a built in excess capacity that you are physically unable to field, this is one place that could field these weapons and not leave them as ballast.  Is this a perfect solution, by no means is it a perfect solution, it is one possibility.  The ability to rapidly reconfigure from an ambusher, to a sniper, to various flavors of support fire to even a cargo truck if I need it now is not a bad capacity to have in a second line/support unit, a capacity that cost an extra ~166,000 C-Bills, (roughly speaking).
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #82 on: 28 July 2013, 19:31:45 »
I think you are mistaking the Hetzer for an MBT, I can assure you that will only get you a dead vehicle.  You will have to think differently to be effective.  The opportunity here is that you get to inject some uncertainty into your opponent as to what he is facing...the actions to deal with an AC/20 are entirely inappropriate when you find out you are facing a Gauss Rifle.

I was thinking of a turretless vehicle like the Hetzer, not a true MBT.  The lack of a turret lets you concentrate the armor more and buys you a fair amount of pod space at the cost of reduced flexibility in your firing arcs, and it will be able to do anything the Hetzer could do better thanks to the extra pod space and armor.

The idea is that you are not spending that much more to pod the weapons.  Now I currently a little out of pocket and I will not be able to fully research cost until tomorrow at the earliest.  With that said, with your Omni-Mechs carrying multiple weapon configurations, you have a built in excess capacity that you are physically unable to field, this is one place that could field these weapons and not leave them as ballast.  Is this a perfect solution, by no means is it a perfect solution, it is one possibility.  The ability to rapidly reconfigure from an ambusher, to a sniper, to various flavors of support fire to even a cargo truck if I need it now is not a bad capacity to have in a second line/support unit, a capacity that cost an extra ~166,000 C-Bills, (roughly speaking).

The problem with this thinking is that you then need to haul around even more omni pods to keep the Hetzer in the field or plan on having it fall out of service when you run out of useful things to put in it.  Really the only thing you could count on using it as is an APC, but it is frankly terrible in that roll with its thin armor, low ground speed, and poor off road performance so it would be nothing more than a way to haul infantry most of the way to the front, and that is an enormous waste of resources when you could make a separate support vehicle to do the job better and probably still come out cheaper than the 166,000 C-Bills (what was the cost of the old Flatbed Truck?) you want to spend on an omni frame.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #83 on: 28 July 2013, 20:27:01 »
Well, the battle armor taxi idea is at least something I can get behind. It's still awfully slow for the job, but it's fast enough to get a squad of whatevers to the field faster than they can move, anyway. Not all BA have the magnetic clamps like the Fa Shih, after all. Still, I think I'd rather leave the job to something faster moving if possible, like the Bandit.

You're starting to help me see where you're coming from, though. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but I'm at least intrigued by what you're thinking here.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #84 on: 28 July 2013, 20:29:06 »
You could switch to a fuel cell on tracks for not much extra cost, that'd mitigate some of the maneuverability, if not speed, issues.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #85 on: 28 July 2013, 22:12:16 »
Like many have said, it's a cheap, straitforward box of toys and little else.  It's a style that I like aesthetically, though I'd implement it a bit more caricaturistically if it were up to me. 

For those of us watching the debate at home, how much does a dedicated vehicle for hauling toads (and/or squishies, for that matter) cost if it's of appropriately minimalist style to match the Hetzer?  How does its BA-carrying capacity per C-Bill compare to omnifying the Hetzers? 

As for adding uncertainty re: loadout, in the case of something that's meant to be used in groups anyway and shouldn't be seen until it's ready to attack, what makes omnivehicles better at hiding their loadouts than standard vehicles?  (I've exactly zero double-blind experience.)

If no rules exist for there being a difference between standard and omni for this, my fiction-oriented perspective is that I imagine it would be more appropriate for Quikscell to just encase everything in the same nondescript box, so that all variants look the same until the door on the front slides open.  If I fail to kill my target I expect my whole lance will likely be flanked and destroyed, so if I even get to worry that the enemy might be able to later recognise a particular Hetzer by its body damage I'll consider myself rather lucky to still have it at all.  Even in that case, I'd probably rather have a fifth Hetzer than have the ability to change loadouts, since Hetzers are already confined to narrow range of uses by their mobility and armor AND, to my eye at least, they look like they're meant to be used in groups. 
I'm pretty happy that Battletech is divorced from actual warfare by its inherent silliness. Real war machines tend to be closely tied with the other--to avoid opening a can of worms--unpleasant, real world elements of war.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #86 on: 29 July 2013, 06:14:37 »
An Arrow IV Variant would probably do a good job there. Then again, might as well use regulators, so meh.
I don't think at the given speed transport is a good idea?
I mean, depending on terrain the actual BA might not be much slower.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #87 on: 29 July 2013, 06:55:56 »
...
I don't think at the given speed transport is a good idea?
I mean, depending on terrain the actual BA might not be much slower.

I am with you on this.  4/6 is fine for a larger IFV which has the guns and armor to wade into the thick of things before dropping off the infantry and slugging it out with the enemy, but the Hetzer is a long way from a real IFV and 4/6 is nothing but a bad joke for an APC.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #88 on: 29 July 2013, 09:43:03 »
Like many have said, it's a cheap, straitforward box of toys and little else.  It's a style that I like aesthetically, though I'd implement it a bit more caricaturistically if it were up to me. 

For those of us watching the debate at home, how much does a dedicated vehicle for hauling toads (and/or squishies, for that matter) cost if it's of appropriately minimalist style to match the Hetzer?  How does its BA-carrying capacity per C-Bill compare to omnifying the Hetzers? 

Cost to modify a standard Hetzer with an AC/20 loadout is 166,000, comparing that to a wheeled HAPC that has been "Omni-ified"(MG's only, and the 6 ton infantry bay), the total costs are 149,645 and change, stock is 119,717...as a Battle taxi this is better for moving units, but has to rely on the "Kobold defense®" to avoid not being flaming wreckage...there are possibilities with that 6 ton bay as well...might be on to something....

As for adding uncertainty re: loadout, in the case of something that's meant to be used in groups anyway and shouldn't be seen until it's ready to attack, what makes omnivehicles better at hiding their loadouts than standard vehicles?  (I've exactly zero double-blind experience.)

My thought/experience with this is more anecdotal, Many years ago I had to set up an OPFOR unit in a level 1 game, I for get what constraints I had as to BV but the units I picked were all variants, the HBK-4H, a CNT-9AH, I think a Jenner 7F.  It turned out to be one of the more fun games we had as none of the opposing mechs acted like their base models..not game breaking but a little shocking when at 15 hexes you hear "OK, the Hunchback is firing", suddenly your assumptions go out the window.  Today with active probes and ECM, you can still get that little bit of a Tempo Point because until the unit fires, you may not know exactly what you are facing, that's not supposed to happen...especially if you  assume and don't ask. :-)

If no rules exist for there being a difference between standard and omni for this, my fiction-oriented perspective is that I imagine it would be more appropriate for Quikscell to just encase everything in the same nondescript box, so that all variants look the same until the door on the front slides open.  If I fail to kill my target I expect my whole lance will likely be flanked and destroyed, so if I even get to worry that the enemy might be able to later recognise a particular Hetzer by its body damage I'll consider myself rather lucky to still have it at all.  Even in that case, I'd probably rather have a fifth Hetzer than have the ability to change loadouts, since Hetzers are already confined to narrow range of uses by their mobility and armor AND, to my eye at least, they look like they're meant to be used in groups.
I would say that is an equally valid point of view..the Hetzer does well in mass, anything subtracting from that mass reduces combat power.  personally i would make the Hetzer kinda of the Universal Weapon Carrier and just sell everything and every type of armament option out there. 

P.S. Try running the 2 LRM-15 variant, people don't shoot it as much...cheep too.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun
« Reply #89 on: 29 July 2013, 12:04:41 »
Even that LRM version, I just don't see any advantages for it (other than era availability) over the 3054 upgrade to the Hunter- the tracks give it better mobility in the standard battlefield, the LRMs have Artemis included, and the armor is only slightly less.

I've long believed that, much like the Hunchback, doing something with a Hetzer other than strapping an AC-20 style weapon to it is a crime against the vehicle. Much like the Urbanmech, it has one job- and it does it well. Trying to get it to do other things may work, but isn't worth modding the Hetzer compared to just finding something else to do the other job. In this case, the Hunter is simply a better choice- and probably cheaper in the end- than buying a Hetzer and modding it.
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