Author Topic: Core Rulebook Splitting  (Read 58114 times)

Daemion

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #180 on: 16 August 2019, 16:54:29 »
Until the next batch of new stuff requires a new book.  xp

Idea!  How about equipment card packs with that info available to individual items.  Didn't someone start that as a fan project already?

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Maingunnery

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #181 on: 16 August 2019, 16:59:55 »
Idea!  How about equipment card packs with that info available to individual items.  Didn't someone start that as a fan project already?
Well that would be one easy way to keep inventory.  :thumbsup:
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Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #182 on: 16 August 2019, 17:02:06 »
Cards vice rule books?  Ugh...  xp

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #183 on: 16 August 2019, 17:53:50 »
Until the next batch of new stuff requires a new book.  xp


Considering there hasn’t been any significant additions since intops, I think we’re ok with a new book every half decade. The revised main rulebook used to come around every 3-4 years

Quote
Idea!  How about equipment card packs with that info available to individual items.  Didn't someone start that as a fan project already?

Yeah it was me. They’re meant to be a gameplay reference not a replacement for the books

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kinwolf

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #184 on: 17 August 2019, 10:42:57 »
Hmm, on the KS, both TO books are listed at 40$ each.  So that's 80$ to get the complete ruleset... ouch  :-[

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #185 on: 17 August 2019, 10:44:53 »
That's why I'm going pdf only for those two.

General308

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #186 on: 17 August 2019, 10:58:01 »
That's why I'm going pdf only for those two.

You know for rules it is weird.  To learn rules I like a physical book.  But for looking up things I prefer a PDF.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #187 on: 17 August 2019, 11:04:29 »
Not weird at all... I think that's how most people's brains work.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #188 on: 17 August 2019, 16:42:24 »
Regarding lessened focus on mech stuff, I think a lot of the reason people don't play with those forces is because they aren't even perceived as that important, or useful.
Battletech was invented as a game of big stompy robots, and that's been the continual focus.  Infantry and tanks were added as options, but whenever the question comes up why vehicles are so easy to disable the answer from TPTB is because they specifically want mechs to be the kings of the battlefield, so even the best vehicle has to have a downside by sole virtue of not being a mech.  The art also shows this focus, non-mech units get very little representation.
That means, if you REALLY want other unit types to get a fair shake, you'd have to convince CGL to make BT into a game of future armored combat where we have giant robots instead of just big stompy robots: the game.  That means less squishy conventional arms, and that means more prominent depictions of stuff like mechs getting swarmed to death by a squad of infantry while a demolisher shoots it in the face, and the quintessential mech leading the charge with a bunch of toads hanging off.

This extends to the games as well.  A LOT of people come here because of the various video games, and non-mech forces have even worse representation there.  People get into the tabletop game because the video game was fun, and vehicles rarely factor in to that fun while infantry and aerospace pretty much never do.

Honestly, if there were to be a reformat, the biggest thing happens to always be new equipment.  I wonder if equipment guides, by era, wouldn't work as the format for rules expansions.
Having stuff solely sorted by era would be really confusing when you have units sporting equipment that debuted in three different eras.  You shouldn't have to figure out what era something is from before being able to find rules for its use.


Personally, if we are discussing a reorganization of rule books, I definitely think everything should be split between gameplay rules and construction rules, so that means splitting SO and IO as well. 
For an actual redo of the line, though, my preference would be to add a Battlemech construction guide to supplement the BMM with rules and equipment for building just mechs. 
Then add a Combined Arms Manual and Combined Arms Construction books covering the gameplay and construction of vehicles and infantry, and any equipment they use that mechs don't have.
Add an Aerospace Manual and a Construction book covering ASFs, Dropships, and anything else in space along with the space combat rules plus rules for aersospace units on ground maps and ground units in space at the back.  It's probably best for any equipment aerospace units use that's not in the mech books get rules even if they are duplicated in the combined arms books, just to reduce the confusion of having to flip through your entire library to cross reference every single book (basically, the mech books are the core rulebooks everyone needs, and additional unit types only need their book and the core mech book).
The last book should be the campaign book combining the high level maintenance, support and logistics stuff from SO and IO.

Battleforce I see as being more or less superseded by Alpha Strike unless they wanted to fix up strategic Battleforce a bit.

On a side note, equipment cards would be a nice supplement.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #189 on: 17 August 2019, 22:28:33 »
Cards vice rule books?  Ugh...  xp
I'll be honest if the costs were reasonable and they can make them fit into a standard playingcard/CCG card page sleeve I'd buy the product.  Lugging around multiple rule books for different sets of gear is tedious.  Having it there and alphabetized without having to scan though a couple 100 pages would be awesome. 

BirdofPrey

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #190 on: 17 August 2019, 22:47:12 »
I'll be honest if the costs were reasonable and they can make them fit into a standard playingcard/CCG card page sleeve I'd buy the product.  Lugging around multiple rule books for different sets of gear is tedious.  Having it there and alphabetized without having to scan though a couple 100 pages would be awesome. 
This is why I almost exclusively buy PDF products.  Dead tree is a nice read once or twice to get familiar with the rules, but when it comes to game time a tablet is vastly superior because I can bring EVERYTHING with me without having to worry about weight, and I can use bookmarks or do searches.

The only thing that would be better is some sort of official wiki or app that is professionally maintained.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #191 on: 17 August 2019, 23:15:33 »
Favoring hardback increases weight, as does adding in all the pictures and fiction. Worse in the case of TacOps is that the well of fiction about the universe had pretty much run dry by the time it came around, making them far less valuable.

Greatclub

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #192 on: 09 October 2019, 04:06:11 »
The more I think about this, the more I think that a complete re-organization of the post-techmanual books is in order.

1 - Techbook - all the advanced, experamental and niche stuff that's scattered all over the place. Includes LAMs and quadvees.

2 - Advanced Rulebook. All the stuff in tacops, the advanced terrain in IO, other stuff and and CampOps on top.

3 - Alternate games - battlespace, battleforce, and stars at war, strategic aerospace. watever they're called.

I know that these would be huge (Expensive, limited run) books that still would be hard to justify, but I think it would work better than just splitting each into two parts. That I can't see ending well.

RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #193 on: 09 October 2019, 06:56:27 »
Hmm, on the KS, both TO books are listed at 40$ each.  So that's 80$ to get the complete ruleset... ouch  :-[

That's what scares me, and why I think splitting the book is a bad idea. The price goes up and the likely hood of finding half the book goes down. Trying to find a volume 2 of anything is a pain in the ass and now its happening with the rule books. It's bad enough they're not kept in print. First players can't find the books and now they'll only be able to get half a book.


Regarding lessened focus on mech stuff, I think a lot of the reason people don't play with those forces is because they aren't even perceived as that important, or useful.

snip

I never understood that. I mean I know Battlemechs are always the kings of the battlefield but we've had the other stuff since 1988 or so? The very first TRO includes vehicles and aerospace units. How do people not see them as important?


The more I think about this, the more I think that a complete re-organization of the post-techmanual books is in order.

They've needed a compete reorganization since they printed TechManual. It's a pain to have to go from TechManual to Total Warfare or Tactical Operations for find out what tech does under normal rules. Splitting up TacOps is going to make a bad situation even worse. Now when TM says to see TO page xyz there won't be a page xyz.

I really don't see how anyone sees splitting the book is a good idea. You're increasing the cost of the book and decreasing its usefulness and availability.


Quote
1 - Techbook - all the advanced, experamental and niche stuff that's scattered all over the place. Includes LAMs and quadvees.

2 - Advanced Rulebook. All the stuff in tacops, the advanced terrain in IO, other stuff and and CampOps on top.

3 - Alternate games - battlespace, battleforce, and stars at war, strategic aerospace. watever they're called.


I'd go with two TechManuals. One for "Tournament Legal" and one for "Advanced Tech." And most definitely include every single piece of tech. IO missed some.


Quote
I know that these would be huge (Expensive, limited run) books that still would be hard to justify, but I think it would work better than just splitting each into two parts. That I can't see ending well.

I would hope they wouldn't be that limited, or if they were it's only to print newer editions with errata included faster. You want the books in the stores for existing players and potential new players to see. You can't sell the game if it isn't visible and players can't find it.

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #194 on: 09 October 2019, 08:08:17 »
The more I think about this, the more I think that a complete re-organization of the post-techmanual books is in order.

1 - Techbook - all the advanced, experamental and niche stuff that's scattered all over the place. Includes LAMs and quadvees.

2 - Advanced Rulebook. All the stuff in tacops, the advanced terrain in IO, other stuff and and CampOps on top.

3 - Alternate games - battlespace, battleforce, and stars at war, strategic aerospace. watever they're called.

I know that these would be huge (Expensive, limited run) books that still would be hard to justify, but I think it would work better than just splitting each into two parts. That I can't see ending well.

at this point it seems the TW/TM/TO/SO part of the line is on maintenance only until they decide to do something else. an IO reprint is probably so far off that it won't be required. i wouldn't want to see any major restructuring that didn't include a ground-up revision of TW as well. anything else is wasted effort.
« Last Edit: 09 October 2019, 08:10:13 by Sartris »

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #195 on: 09 October 2019, 17:56:37 »
Yup.
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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #196 on: 09 October 2019, 19:25:46 »
TO is being split, so I'm not sure how that counts as "maintenance"... the only way to keep up with the errata is to buy both volumes of the split book.  They're not going to provide older page references.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #197 on: 09 October 2019, 19:40:34 »
They didn’t want to reprint a 400+ page rulebook so the split was necessary under that criterion. A one, two, or seven part split doesn’t change the fact that the biggest alteration in this paradigm was new page numbers

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Daryk

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #198 on: 09 October 2019, 19:58:38 »
My point is the new page numbers break the errata continuity.  If you want to keep up with the errata, you MUST buy the new books.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #199 on: 09 October 2019, 20:26:50 »
If it's a short term thing while a new edition comes out, that makes some sense.

Still do not think it a good idea, but since I don't have their numbers I'll just take it on faith.

Helps that I'm really unlikely to buy them in any form.
« Last Edit: 09 October 2019, 21:39:34 by Greatclub »

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #200 on: 09 October 2019, 21:01:01 »
My point is the new page numbers break the errata continuity.  If you want to keep up with the errata, you MUST buy the new books.

Clearly outside of the production concerns. Sometimes a portion of the customer base must be inconvenienced

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RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #201 on: 10 October 2019, 02:06:50 »
They didn’t want to reprint a 400+ page rulebook so the split was necessary under that criterion. A one, two, or seven part split doesn’t change the fact that the biggest alteration in this paradigm was new page numbers

It isn't just the page numbers for TO that will change. Other books will need to be erratad to include the not just new page numbers but what book the information is in. For example Total Warfare mentions TacOps 13 times. All 13 references are going to need to be changed to match the new book.


If I counted right removing the fiction and cutaway art pages brings TacOps in under 400 pages.


Clearly outside of the production concerns. Sometimes a portion of the customer base must be inconvenienced

If a lot of currant players are being inconvenienced imagine a new or returning player will feel having to look for a yet another book to find out what something does. We've done this already.
It was a pain having to wait for TechManual because the construction rule were split into a second book. Then we had to wait for TacOps because TM didn't tell us everything. Then we had to wait for StratOps because TO didn't tell us everything and so on. Now we're going to have to go through that again?

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #202 on: 10 October 2019, 03:57:48 »
It isn't just the page numbers for TO that will change. Other books will need to be erratad to include the not just new page numbers but what book the information is in. For example Total Warfare mentions TacOps 13 times. All 13 references are going to need to be changed to match the new bookS.
*snip*
FTFY

Sartris

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #203 on: 10 October 2019, 06:08:03 »
I’m not arguing it’s not an inconvenience for some but obviously it was not considered a big enough drawback when compared with the benefits they found from splitting.

I’m guessing they looked at the download numbers for the errata files and realized not that many people even keep track. It’s not something even they hyperfocused people here even talk about much. You could buy a nice bottle of scotch if you had dollar for every time a regular forum participant was reminded of years-old errata about artillery, C3, or RE lasers

You might try to convince CGL to run two sets of errata with page numbers for both versions. Litigation over the wisdom of the split, however, is quite pointless

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Cache

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #204 on: 10 October 2019, 06:39:15 »
Differing reference page numbers can be addressed without changing the other books.

RifleMech

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #205 on: 10 October 2019, 16:14:19 »
What benifits?

How would you not change the other books?  If a book say see TO page 345 and there is no page 345, there's a problem. A correction needs to be issued and not every player is going to know there is errata or where to find it.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #206 on: 10 October 2019, 16:15:05 »
*snip*
You might try to convince CGL to run two sets of errata with page numbers for both versions.
*snip*[/quote]
I did... it didn't work.

monbvol

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #207 on: 10 October 2019, 16:37:05 »
What benifits?

How would you not change the other books?  If a book say see TO page 345 and there is no page 345, there's a problem. A correction needs to be issued and not every player is going to know there is errata or where to find it.

I can think of one benefit right off the bat. That the book will be in print at all.  CGL is a business and has to ensure that they are getting return on investment.  If there were enough return on investment to keep the book in print in it's current form we wouldn't have this thread.

It has been pretty plainly laid out by CGL staff that TacOps in it's current form is not receiving enough return on investment to keep printing it.

In a choice between split it or not have it at all I know which I'd choose.

Insaniac99

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #208 on: 10 October 2019, 16:37:56 »
What benifits?

How would you not change the other books?  If a book say see TO page 345 and there is no page 345, there's a problem. A correction needs to be issued and not every player is going to know there is errata or where to find it.

well, let's say we split TacOps, but don't restart numbering from Page 0?

There can be A01 thru AXX for the new appendixes and TOCs and so forth, but the pages of rules between the split and non-split editions will be the same so new books don't have wrong references.

Not a good solution, or one I think likely to be done, but it is a solution.

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Re: Core Rulebook Splitting
« Reply #209 on: 10 October 2019, 16:47:48 »
lol, I can see the post . . .

"Hey, I just bought this new rule book and it starts on page 236 after the table of contents.  Did I get a misprinted book?"
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