Author Topic: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?  (Read 26370 times)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37361
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #30 on: 25 February 2018, 06:00:58 »
Auto-rifles show a rather serious hiccup in the damage conversion formula.  The assumption of the formula seems to be that the weapon is firing at its full rate of 15 every time it's used by infantry in BT, but the reload factor is still going by the number of rounds in the mag (30) instead of the number of bursts per mag (2), and may only suffice for one turn's worth of fire, since infantry weapons have to fire more often than heavy weapons in order to deal damage.  If you went by bursts instead of rounds, the auto-rifle would end up as a mere .10 damage per trooper, at best.
I've pointed out that particular problem several times, and even posted the "AR+" down in fan rules to fix it.

Battleships were phased out because smaller, cheaper platforms (torpedoes, aircraft) could defeat them. The same would apply to the Battlemech: If you can disable it with sustained rifle fire, why build it in the first place? You could just go buy a whole heap more rifles instead.
Mobility.  Battlemechs (especially LAMs) are vastly more mobile than anything you can stuff infantry into (since they can't be stuffed into a 'mech).  And as others have pointed out here, the unique way 'mechs can survive destruction of their component parts gives them a survivability edge.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2018, 06:34:42 by Daryk »

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #31 on: 25 February 2018, 12:04:03 »
Auto-rifles show a rather serious hiccup in the damage conversion formula.  The assumption of the formula seems to be that the weapon is firing at its full rate of 15 every time it's used by infantry in BT, but the reload factor is still going by the number of rounds in the mag (30) instead of the number of bursts per mag (2), and may only suffice for one turn's worth of fire, since infantry weapons have to fire more often than heavy weapons in order to deal damage.  If you went by bursts instead of rounds, the auto-rifle would end up as a mere .10 damage per trooper, at best.

There is a logic to using the full magazine size for the reload factor though.

The trouble for me is the way burst fire is handled and the implication that you can just throw more bullets at armor and it'll work out.

It just creates an implication that mech armor is way too easy to beat that doesn't mesh well with what we've been told for decades about how good it is supposed to be.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #32 on: 25 February 2018, 12:08:00 »
It's been known for a long time that mech armor is ludicrously good against high-velocity penetrators, but vulnerable to broad low-velocity hits or repeated hammering on one spot. Infantry take advantage of the latter, mech fists and melee weapons the former.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

massey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2445
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #33 on: 25 February 2018, 12:09:54 »
It's been known for a long time that mech armor is ludicrously good against high-velocity penetrators, but vulnerable to broad low-velocity hits or repeated hammering on one spot. Infantry take advantage of the latter, mech fists and melee weapons the former.

No.  That's an excuse people came up with to justify letting infantry weapons hurt mechs.  Nothing more.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #34 on: 25 February 2018, 12:16:51 »
No justification is needed. Infantry weapons hurt mechs, that is an unquestionable fact. If they didn't, Total War and a lot of rulebooks before it would be worded very differently.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #35 on: 25 February 2018, 12:30:42 »
Except bullets from autorifles are not particularly massive and still have a decent velocity.

As far as descriptions of infantry I prefered the older implications.  That even though it was called a rifle platoon it still had abstracted support weapons, grenades, satchel charges, disposable vlaws that were doing the damage instead.

So I don't have an issue with infantry as a unit type being able to be effective against armor, I have issue with the support weapons being so optional to do so under the current regime.

Daemion

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5856
  • The Future of BattleTech
    • Never Tales and Other Daydreams
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #36 on: 25 February 2018, 13:01:34 »
As far as disconnects of fluff and rules I tend to be of the mind that players should be able to re-create scenes and actions from the fluff as much as possible otherwise it is pointless to have any link between the fluff and the game.  Which includes artists should place weaponry correctly in the art.

This pretty much sums up what I'm looking for out of the game - not only that I can play out a game from the fiction, but I can narrate, in my own mind, the outcome of a game as well.

Basically, I'm looking for a narrative that the rules adhere to. We get that with Mechs. We get that with Tanks. We get it with Aerospace. But, Infantry rules don't have a coherent narrative.

I don't mind what narrative, as long as the one the rules conform to is logically followable.

If the support weapon is the reason why ranges are the way they are in a game of armored combat, then it stands to reason that infantry should have the possibility of losing that capacity early just as having it to the last man standing.

And, if support weapons are responsible for a large portion of a squad's damage, then there should be large drops in the Platoon's damage output when one is lost. Conversely, if there are only 4 support weapons and the damage output is much greater than 8, it stands to reason there should be shot groupings bigger than 2.

Here's a narrative that has defined BattleTech for me:

Every other combat unit in BattleTech is subject to the random loss of functionality before it's destroyed. Mechs have locations with weapons, mobility, power output, which get damaged or destroyed. Tanks and Aerospace have tables and external damage effects which can equally leave them immobile, out of control, down a few weapons and so on. It's consistent that no game will ever be consistent in outcome due to that.

Infantry are somehow devoid of that? Even in an environment with ambient ecm, there seems to be an implied accuracy required and that any support weapon can be picked off rather easily. Can't hit the guy directly? Most weapons seem to be powerful enough that all you have to do is get in his vicinity. And, then there are the indiscriminate attacks like artillery, High-Ex Missile Clusters, special explosive munitions.

If every other combat unit is subject to random critical effects, it stands to reason an amorphous infantry mob should be, too. They don't lose mobility, but they have something to lose in the small handful of support weapons they carry. They would lose range and/or damage output. Maybe be prone to stunning after a particularly horrendous attack while the survivors regroup and relegate a guard or two to watch after the wounded, and somebody unhooks the support weapon harness from Bazooka Joe to take over that role, since Joe lost his leg, but his weapon is still functioning.

A lot details of the narrative don't have to be tracked in the rules for the game, but if you follow the rules for a unit through construction and other aspects, a person should be able to paint a clear picture in their head what's happening, and fiction can expound on this.

That's why I have a hard time with the new Mechanized Infantry Rules. The narrative doesn't work.

I would have been fine assuming they were simply another form of Nebulous Motorized with an unspecified amount of vehicles that had a very specific motive type. That was undone by the blurb in TechManual about each squad having a single vehicle, making for a specific 4 vehicles per platoon. I could imagine that an AC20 was knocking out a jeep with 4 men in it when it hit the platoon out in the open, because it was plastering the jeep they were in and rendering the group a mission kill. That's not possible with only 4 vehicles in a platoon.

That's why I look askance on the fact that there are rapid fire weapons (ACs) that are only capable of taking out one guy, maybe two if they're out in the open which are strong enough to punch a hole in a big tank. If each guy in the platoon is armored up enough that it takes that kind of concentrated fire to take out one, or maybe two, then how is it that flechette AC and Missile Munitions are able to do better? Surely the force with which a single AC bullet hits a guy is more than enough to send him flying and render him out of action for the duration of the battle. I have no problem imagining an AC is able to spread the love just as readily as a machine gun. Maybe not in 2d6 volume, but some of them should come pretty close.

What about LRMs using High Explosive warheads? And, yet only a cluster of five can take out a single trooper, maybe two if they're caught in the open.

A laser swept across a group of guys can't find enough weak spots in their armor, and so has to focus on taking out one guy, but a spray of plastic darts can do the job? A high-powered super-magnifying lense that is a laser can't hit a fairly decent number of guys, and merely cook them in passing, but a flamer can do the job?

Now, I expect some limitation to weapons that are dedicated to focused attacks on armored targets having some limitations in the number of guys they can take out, but not down to just one. The 'flechettes' I have some mild qualms against, but should allow for an AC to do more mission-kill casualties against people not wearing the fancy front line armor. They shouldn't be there just so you can have a reason for an alternate munition which plays the system that was derived. (They simply allow ACs to do full their full damage against conventional infantry, and unrandomized like most other anti-infantry weapons are.)

(Btw, LB-X cluster pellets are supposed to be explosive in their own right. They're not merely grapeshot, so I can give them a pass as effective anti-infantry weapons against front line troops on the 25th to 31st century battlefield.)

The narrative with infantry fails. That's what I want to see fixed.




(Aside: The narrative of randomized effects and damage is also why I had issues with Dark Age, especially with the singular combat dial for Mechs. Knowing that in a game of BT, a Mech could be stripped of all its armor and down to its last  Internal Point in each location and still be fully functional, or have an arm and legs knocked off rendering it useless though it's far from destroyed made the repetitive and predictable combat dial 'not BattleTech enough' for me.)




 
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Paul

  • dies a lot at the Solaris Melee Challenge!
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15575
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #37 on: 25 February 2018, 13:28:53 »
The rules foir infantry are a conceit to keep them relevant. I would have preferred if infantry had 2 damage values: one against other infantry, and another against armored targets. It's weird that just a few kgs can be effective; anti-armor weaponry ought to be very heavy.

Put another way, take a Hunchback and install 14 tons of auto rifles on it. Presume 8kg of rifle to account for mounting hardware.
That's 1750 rifles. 910 damage.

Infantry weapon rules are dumb.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #38 on: 25 February 2018, 13:35:42 »
Battleships were phased out because smaller, cheaper platforms (torpedoes, aircraft) could defeat them. The same would apply to the Battlemech: If you can disable it with sustained rifle fire, why build it in the first place? You could just go buy a whole heap more rifles instead.

Indeed.  The state of the game is predicated on a reversal of the current technological realities relating to the relationship of firepower>defenses.

Yeah you can field a hundred peasant levies for the resources it takes to train a single quality man-at-arms, but that trained man-at-arms with quality weapons and armor would defeat a hundred untrained, unarmored farmers with sharpened rakes and shovels.  The BTU game requires the same sort of thing in order for mechs to reign supreme.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #39 on: 25 February 2018, 13:43:26 »
That's already the case. Have you tried to take infantry against a Mechwarrior that's actually competent and doesn't ignore them as irrelevant? The mech definitely had the advantage.

While mechs work great when supported by other stuff, they can operate solo. Infantry are useful as part of a team. Solo, they are just meat.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19854
  • Cap’n-Generalissimost
    • Master Unit List
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #40 on: 25 February 2018, 14:17:47 »
The rules foir infantry are a conceit to keep them relevant. I would have preferred if infantry had 2 damage values: one against other infantry, and another against armored targets. It's weird that just a few kgs can be effective; anti-armor weaponry ought to be very heavy.

Put another way, take a Hunchback and install 14 tons of auto rifles on it. Presume 8kg of rifle to account for mounting hardware.
That's 1750 rifles. 910 damage.

Infantry weapon rules are dumb.

[takes notes furiously]

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #41 on: 25 February 2018, 14:24:15 »
Yeah two damage ratings and perhaps two range brackets as well would do a lot to solve the current battlemech, combat vehicle, infantry, and buildings dynamics.

And Paul's post does kind of point out something else why it needs to be the support weapons and not the primary arms of infantry that are the primary contributors of anti armor capability in a roundabout fashion.

If autorifles are that effective against mech armor then why are mech machine guns so poor against mech armor?  Their 2d6 versus infantry gives them pretty close anti infantry performance as a rifle foot platoon firing at other PBIs without special armor.  At 5kg they are actually spitting out more throw weight than a rifle platoon and that could potentially mean fewer individual rounds but bigger or it could mean the same rounds but more of them or some combination/compromise of those two factors.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2018, 14:42:48 by monbvol »

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #42 on: 25 February 2018, 16:02:17 »
[takes notes furiously]

Not only is the damage insane, so is the improvement in range over mech weapons!

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #43 on: 25 February 2018, 16:17:05 »
I think that other thread does raise some fair questions and does help point out some of the problems of the current approach.

It also raises an interesting consideration of how to keep infantry relevant while answering some of these questions.

Daemion

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5856
  • The Future of BattleTech
    • Never Tales and Other Daydreams
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #44 on: 25 February 2018, 18:44:33 »
Just a little interesting perspective on Infantry Platoons.

Someone always suggested that Infantry should be deployed as squads. Having played around with infantry minis with Mechs, I agree.

Pictures tell a thousand words, and I posted some in the minis forum showing how they look to an appropriately scaled hex for 1/285 scale.

Stacking is an issue with full platoons.

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #45 on: 25 February 2018, 19:23:41 »
I think that does point out some of the problem.  The inconsistency of the whole mess.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9597
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #46 on: 25 February 2018, 19:41:41 »
My whole issue is that 1.) people want to treat Infantry like another Armor unit and 2.) If you can't, people won't use them.

My ideal has been using infantry as part of a objective. Need to capture a building, your going to need infantry so your Mechs better maker sure they don't get squashed by enemy armor. Hidden infantry spotting for artillery? Better find them before that Arty hits something important.

Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37361
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #47 on: 25 February 2018, 19:54:12 »
Squad deployment FTW! O0

HMS_Swiftsure

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 276
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #48 on: 25 February 2018, 20:01:48 »
The rules foir infantry are a conceit to keep them relevant. I would have preferred if infantry had 2 damage values: one against other infantry, and another against armored targets. It's weird that just a few kgs can be effective; anti-armor weaponry ought to be very heavy.

Put another way, take a Hunchback and install 14 tons of auto rifles on it. Presume 8kg of rifle to account for mounting hardware.
That's 1750 rifles. 910 damage.

Infantry weapon rules are dumb.

That illustrates perfectly my problem with infantry damage.  It just feels very wrong.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37361
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #49 on: 25 February 2018, 20:27:32 »
Critical spaces take care of that problem, as well as medium laser spam.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #50 on: 26 February 2018, 00:58:01 »
Except we don't really have a lot to go off of for how many infantry weapons you can get per critical on a mech.  What little we do have is focused on smaller support vehicles and thus may not translate in the same way.

HMS_Swiftsure

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 276
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #51 on: 26 February 2018, 03:39:47 »
Wait a minute.

An M1 Abrams can't harm a 'Mech with it's main gun, but a platoon of soldiers can with M-4s?
And if I'm understanding this correctly, a platoon of soldiers can shred an M1 with M-4s?

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37361
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #52 on: 26 February 2018, 04:21:07 »
They're not M4s.  M4s would be something less than the "vintage" assault rifle in the Companion.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13286
  • I said don't look!
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #53 on: 26 February 2018, 04:26:37 »
Well that comes back to the lack of consistency I mentioned.

At one point the fluff was pretty clear that modern tank guns were ineffective against full fledged mech armor.

Then the primitive Rifle Cannons were introduced and there were some suggestions that the M1 Abrams could be using the Medium, perhaps even Heavy Rifle Cannons.  Both of which while not super effective are damaging enough that some of the early fictional accounts of what the Mackie was supposed to be capable of no longer jived with the game rules.

Strictly speaking yes Battletech has armor of technological sophistication that it wouldn't be out of place in the early 21st century but thanks to how damage is modeled/handled it still isn't really the same thing and behaves very differently.

As pointed out there are stats in the A Time of War Companion for vintage autorifles(still not M4s possibly) and yes they can potentially hurt even the most sophisticated armors.

So I'm not sure if it is fair to say Battletech allows M4s and the like to eventually take down an M1 Abrams.  But it does imply you can give a bunch of guys even dated fire arms and enough ammo and they will take out an Atlas.  Sure the Atlas should leave a rather large mess on the field but if you're bloody minded enough and have the troops and gear it is possible.

Heck it is possible to give enough people clubs and they will eventually be able to take down an Atlas.

The worst part to me is the designers can't even claim preserving stats either as many got changed going to Total Warfare/Tech Manual.

Which leaves us with Infantry that are deadlier, more durable, and less reliant on support weapons to be effective on a Battletech battlefield.

To be fair I do need to grant there are a good number of support weapons that are pretty good in their own right but the issue for me is how the damage is figured for infantry still makes the primary arm of the unit the dominant contributor for how good the infantry is at taking out enemy armor and mechs.  Which just doesn't sit well with me.

HMS_Swiftsure

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 276
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #54 on: 26 February 2018, 04:35:58 »
They're not M4s.  M4s would be something less than the "vintage" assault rifle in the Companion.

I was assuming M4s.  I used a Korvin as a stand-in for an Abrams, although I suspect the Korvin is better armored.  I cut the damage of the infantry in half, which is far less than the vintage auto rifle that I suspect is a fair stand-in for an M4.

Korvin didn't last 1 minute.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #55 on: 26 February 2018, 04:45:43 »
If it were that simple you wouldn't need the support weapon at all, just the targeting gear/computer.  Which there are a number of ways to get without having to lug around a big support weapon.

My main issue with infantry is that the way Total Warfare and Tech Manual sets the damages and ranges of the guns it does tend to make some weapons a bit too good, especially against armor.  Thus leaving me scratching my head why I should take certain weapons.

A particularly glaring example in my mind is the semi portable autocannon.  A Time of War stats say it is better against armor with an AP of 6.  BD is 3 and a burst of 25/-2 is possible.  So it should be a bit more reliable at hurting mechs than the autorifle and pretty devastating against enemy infantry.  Yet bring it to Total Warfare/Tech Manual and it doesn't offer any range benefits over the autorifle and thanks to it's crew of 2 it actually has a per person damage of 0.385 leaving it worse at everything.

In other words if autorifles are this good then why aren't other things better.
Pretty sure that your doing it wrong, you should only be losing 1 troopers autorifle damage when you add 2 crew weapon, not 2.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #56 on: 26 February 2018, 09:25:30 »
Wait a minute.

An M1 Abrams can't harm a 'Mech with it's main gun, but a platoon of soldiers can with M-4s?
And if I'm understanding this correctly, a platoon of soldiers can shred an M1 with M-4s?

No. Text cannot convey how much no.

Abrams cannot hurt Atlas.
M4 infantry cannot hurt Abrams.
31st-century auto-rifle infantry can hurt Atlas.
We have no way of knowing if 31-st century auto-rifle infantry can hurt Abrams.
We have no way of knowing if M4 infantry can hurt Atlas.

A Battletech auto-rifle has as much in common performance-wise with an M4 as said M4 has with an Atl-Atl.

Good rule of thumb: If you have Battletech game stats for something, then comparing that something to anything built in the 20th/21st centuries is worse than useless.

I'm going to assume everyone here is too smart to mention XTRO 1945.

Pretty sure that your doing it wrong, you should only be losing 1 troopers autorifle damage when you add 2 crew weapon, not 2.

Correct. Crew size is only relevant when determining how many support weapons can fit in a squad. When shooting time comes, you still have one guy on the trigger, and the rest still have their auto-rifles(or whatever).

Strictly speaking yes Battletech has armor of technological sophistication that it wouldn't be out of place in the early 21st century but thanks to how damage is modeled/handled it still isn't really the same thing and behaves very differently.

Oh my LORD, no. All the no. I'm gonna need a bigger no. There's isn't a single real-life material we can compare Battletech armor to.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Daemion

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5856
  • The Future of BattleTech
    • Never Tales and Other Daydreams
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #57 on: 26 February 2018, 10:30:40 »
There's isn't a single real-life material we can compare Battletech armor to.

Not even a mish-mash composite, either. ;)

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #58 on: 26 February 2018, 12:42:15 »
Exactly. Therefore a weapons performance vs any real-world armor tells us exactly nothing about performance vs Battletech armor, and performance vs Battletech armor tells us exactly bupkiss about performance vs any real-world material. There are zero points of comparison.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #59 on: 26 February 2018, 12:53:01 »
Exactly. Therefore a weapons performance vs any real-world armor tells us exactly nothing about performance vs Battletech armor, and performance vs Battletech armor tells us exactly bupkiss about performance vs any real-world material. There are zero points of comparison.

I'd quibble with you, but hear me out on it.  It dovetails the tangent back into the thread!

There absolutely are some commonalities between the real world and the fantasy world of the BTU.  Arguably things like fire and simple lead bullets are fundamentally the same.  How these (and maybe other) weapons perform versus materials such as trees and common construction materials might be argued as comparable. And even if none of that is comparable between reality and the BTU fantasy, the physical properties of the human body are surely going to be the same.  How well the weapons damage the fragile meatbag of a human body is absolutely comparable.

And that's actually where the extreme granularity for addressing infantry in CBT works in the favor of the setting.  Because "any hit on a human body produces an effective kill" there's no need to worry about reconciling reality vs fantasy.  Get hit with a WWII tech flamer or a 32nd century flamer, either way you're done for the battle. CBT gets to pretty much punt on the entire issue, leaving it to ATOW to worry about.
« Last Edit: 26 February 2018, 12:55:21 by Tai Dai Cultist »