Author Topic: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition  (Read 198584 times)

Cubby

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #630 on: 14 August 2018, 12:54:38 »
Kickstarter may have considerable logistics issues.

As the meme goes, one does not simply "do a Kickstarter."

"But HBS got it done!" Yes, with the help of a KS consultant and, eventually, the full force of Paradox's 43-person marketing team behind it.

Plus, I'd be interested to know (genuinely interested, I'm not being snarky here) whether there is a successful of example of an established tabletop wargame attracting new players via a KS product.

Because, again: growing the player base is priority no. 1.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #631 on: 14 August 2018, 13:18:20 »
I think that sparks a discussion of what you consider growing the purchaser base.  I use purchaser b/c we have some people on here who admit they buy products even if they do not have anyone in the area to play TT- they do MW4, MWO, HBS or MM; or are just in with the story & lurk.  For instance I know half a dozen folks easy who were playing MWO who used to be MM players, and last I heard had bought some of the more recent products like the Lib of Terra or SW books.  Heck, two were the creators of the Clan server, and I am not sure they played TT at all.

We can quantify some first hand effects- how many people bought Shattered Fortress PDF?  was it more than FM3145?  How many people bought Embers of War paperback vs the last FASA novel ending the FCCW?  How many folks bought Bonfire of Worlds vs the new novella as PDF?

Secondary will be harder . . . how many people went to a store or local con, saw a group playing and having fun that sparked their interest enough to buy a product?  Were those people playing b/c of something released that got their attention or re-sparked their love/interest?  I think the Classics are going to do that- remind people of the game they played way back and give it another spin, which puts it on display.

To be honest, my opinion is going to be a bit skewed . . . first, my wife encourages me to go play mid-week and even with a toddler-turned-2 I can still swing it without much problems (we have pictures of him playing with the group at 6 months).  Additionally, my group has been growing for the last . . . 5 years?  This last year at our big state-wide convention we ran two tables of packed grinder which brought in more players to the local group.  Last Thursday night we started late on a campaign game, had 11 players (3 or 4 missing) and got in 7 turns in under 4 hours.  I know about half the folks around that table either has the boxes from GenCon or have already placed pre-orders with the FLGS.  I know this is a outlier for the spectrum, and honestly I am not sure how other groups could duplicate the success.  I do know the main Agent puts in some time at home on FB posting notifications about games, issuing invites and posting news that will interest the group.  But how does everyone else have that success?
« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 13:20:02 by Colt Ward »
Colt Ward
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #632 on: 14 August 2018, 14:22:54 »
Plus, I'd be interested to know (genuinely interested, I'm not being snarky here) whether there is a successful of example of an established tabletop wargame attracting new players via a KS product.
Very interesting question actually.

There are variety of boardgames and RPGs, some with minis (quite a lot of them even in some), some without, that were successful but many of those seem to be based on existing IPs or by possibly well known developers. "Most backers" list doesn't seem to have true wargames, though i'm thinking that is increasingly blurred term.
Searching for "wargame" and sorting by backers, Dropfleet Commander (think it is part of Dropzone Commander?) is the number 1 result but unfortunately there is no way of determining if it (or any other popular project) attracted new people, especially since comments are not visible to non-backers.

I don't think it is impossible for KS to attract new players, i know a friend who backed some RPG KS (Darkeye, some such) as he was interested in the game material mostly but i reckon it is possible we'll end up playing it some day. But i suspect most backers are existing fans, or somewhat well versed in the game in some way. And regardless, there must be marketing to reach people, old and new, there seem to be some interesting projects that have very few backers, basically dooming them to obscurity or failure.

Cubby

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #633 on: 14 August 2018, 14:28:21 »
I do know the main Agent puts in some time at home on FB posting notifications about games, issuing invites and posting news that will interest the group.  But how does everyone else have that success?

Everyone else meaning...other Agents? Or other gaming companies and product lines?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #634 on: 14 August 2018, 14:41:59 »
No, I was more talking about other area gaming groups . . . we regularly see posts in topic where someone says they would love to have regular TT game sessions, but there is no one in their area, etc.  So how does it go from one or two people wanting to play and get more people to play?  My experiences started off with the scenario book I can never get the order right! (Guns Money & Lawyers?) but a few folks had already been playing . . . and we started off with three or four.  We have steadily picked up players for Thursday, occasional Sunday, and rare Saturday games along with our Agent hitting up the state's conventions.  Reason I said 'main' agent is I think someone else is in the process of becoming one out of the group.

So how do you get from 1 BTU fan wanting to play regular table top TW or AS games to six or more players regularly?
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Cubby

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #635 on: 14 August 2018, 15:12:40 »
(I wish I could temporarily take off my beemer, because I'm speaking for myself here.)

I think we're talking about different things. Your question is specifically about how to "get more people playing," my interest is "sell more things." I may have conflated the two with my earlier post calling it "growing the player base," but what I really mean is "increase sales." The only real way to do that is to have new players to sell things to.

I said this in another thread, but: what you're describing is all organic sales growth, people seeing the game being played, either at the hands of an official Catalyst Demo Team member or by a local group, and buying in. And that's great, and local gaming groups are certainly an important part of the picture. But as a driver of sales...it's not 1993 any more, where sending Marauders out to local game stores and getting a few posters on store walls was enough. (If it even was enough then.)

It's eight months old now, but I keep referring back to this two part interview that the Asmodee CEO, Christian Petersen, did with icv2. Two important takeaways:

Quote
But I have read and heard some retailers say that there were close to, at times, up to 80 new [board game] releases a week....The concern is, with reportedly some 3,500 plus new titles coming out last year, how anybody can absorb that. It's more than people can process.  Games that were successful a few years ago just aren't successful anymore, because they're just getting lost in the noise. Nobody can differentiate.

Quote
I once talked to some guys over at Wizards of the Coast.  Whether that number is true now I don't know, but they were saying that they lose about 20 to 25 percent of their [Magic] player base every year.  They have to generate that many players just to stay even and not even grow the game.

With that type of insane glut of new releases in the gaming marketplace, that kind of growth cannot be done organically. It simply can't. It requires a thoughtful and aggressive digital marketing strategy, and a clear and uncluttered ramp of products to take someone from an intro-level player into an established repeat customer. These are things that have to be done at the company level.
« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 15:20:38 by Cubby »
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #636 on: 14 August 2018, 15:28:22 »
Cubby: “”

Me, trolling: “But Kickstarter!!!”
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #637 on: 14 August 2018, 15:37:10 »
I only meant Kickstarter as an abstract example.

I'll um, go stand over here now.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #638 on: 14 August 2018, 16:03:42 »
I only meant Kickstarter as an abstract example.


You can even use it to get organ transplants!
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Colt Ward

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #639 on: 14 August 2018, 16:07:56 »
It's eight months old now, but I keep referring back to this two part interview that the Asmodee CEO, Christian Petersen, did with icv2. Two important takeaways:

With that type of insane glut of new releases in the gaming marketplace, that kind of growth cannot be done organically. It simply can't. It requires a thoughtful and aggressive digital marketing strategy, and a clear and uncluttered ramp of products to take someone from an intro-level player into an established repeat customer. These are things that have to be done at the company level.

I would agree with some of that- for instance I have seen what I assume would be the same sort of market analysis graphs (work sales & marketing too) that break down 1y/2y/3y/5y customers which is basically a geometric curve down that shows how tough it is to keep clients brand loyal over a length of time.  But this is probably a discussion for a different thread getting into some theoretical and those who could answer gagged by NDA (or just to avoid causing a stampede).

As far as Kickstarter or similar programs . . . it might be viable but the Fix-All it gets trotted out to be, as evidenced by everyone & their uncle starting one and failing.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #640 on: 14 August 2018, 16:20:24 »
Yeah, my thoughts on kickstarter were entirely focused on guaranteed profit on what would almost certainly be niche product, not at all on product which has wider general appeal and moves units. Totally different way of going about making some money. I would agree that the type of project that would make the best use of Kickstarter is not the sort that is going to grow the player base. I would never suggest Kickstarting stuff like the box sets or IlClan. Kickstarter is at its best, in my opinion, with products that explicitly do NOT have wide appeal. Now, you wouldn't want to start 20 kickstarters and see what sticks, as there is an expense to setting one up and having it fail to fund. However, if the business case is otherwise questionable, it is a way to potentially give up some margin to reduce risk to the point where it makes sense.

Anyway, I just really liked the CM series and keep championing them. I don't claim to represent any portion of the market, and for all I know there might not be enough interest to make them work, even as a pre-funded deal like a kickstarter. I just hold out hope that some of the 'niche product' bandwidth could make sense to spend on CM's given the right business case. And don't tell me there is not enough bandwidth for niche products right now: I KNOW someone had to do layout on those energy drink labels!!!

Cubby

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #641 on: 14 August 2018, 16:40:27 »
Kickstarter is at its best, in my opinion, with products that explicitly do NOT have wide appeal.

Sure, I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is that at this point, a moment of time spent on a BT product that does not have wide appeal, is a moment of time misspent.

Quote
And don't tell me there is not enough bandwidth for niche products right now: I KNOW someone had to do layout on those energy drink labels!!!

(sigh)

Touche.

But that’s also what I meant by misspent time.
« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 16:43:16 by Cubby »
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #642 on: 14 August 2018, 16:44:45 »
Perhaps more important, a lot of retailers and even more distributors hate kickstarter, to the point where they actively punish companies who run them.

Case in point, Reaper Miniatures. 5-7 years ago they had minis in pretty much every store I went into. Three and a half kickstarters later, and there hasn't been restock of that in years; I'm told that now there's one US distro and no Canadian distros*. I actually question the wisdom of the sprawl ops kickstarter for just that reason.

*I am aware of RAFM ca; I just am not aware of anyone west of Ontario who's managed to do business with them.

00000

Bringing back some of the old map packs would do a lot. I love the newer maps on cardboard. But if you're moving away from them anyway, bring back the good old stuff; the city maps, the canyon maps and spaceport/military base maps, along with the coastlines. More maps means more play possibilities, and more ability to run older scenarios.

« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 16:48:01 by Greatclub »

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #643 on: 14 August 2018, 16:47:09 »
(sigh)

Touche.

Sometimes maybe the silly works because the silly is memorable and gets the brand stuck in peoples' heads. (The oversized map demo is amazing btw.)
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #644 on: 14 August 2018, 16:57:31 »
Not to distract from the Kickstarter conversation, which is fascinating, but I’ve been wondering...

Those cardboard punchouts from the new boxes look really fantastic. With CGL being a publishing company and not a mini company, what are the odds that we can get those as standalone products? 

I’m thinking quick and easy army builders for FLGS pickup games, like a Reinforcements: DCMS pack that has a bunch of Classics, Dragons, Jenners, and Panthers all in the same Sword of Light red so that you could have a unified-looking force ready to play as soon as you got back to the table.

Sure, they aren’t minis, but they would be something that a new player could throw down a few dollars for to get a feel for the game.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #645 on: 14 August 2018, 17:20:35 »
Perhaps more important, a lot of retailers and even more distributors hate kickstarter, to the point where they actively punish companies who run them.

Case in point, Reaper Miniatures. 5-7 years ago they had minis in pretty much every store I went into. Three and a half kickstarters later, and there hasn't been restock of that in years; I'm told that now there's one US distro and no Canadian distros*. I actually question the wisdom of the sprawl ops kickstarter for just that reason.

*I am aware of RAFM ca; I just am not aware of anyone west of Ontario who's managed to do business with them.

I don't have numbers, but based on their past statements, Reaper's Bones lines has overtaken their metal for retail sales numbers (which suggests much higher volume, in terms of units shipped), and they have restocked many of those SKUs with fresh production in China independent of KS production. A lot depends on how well the product is designed to support long-term, sustained sales.

Kickstarter is a tough needle to thread, and I'm not sure what would make sense for a Battletech KS. Generally, it seems like the most successful ones include a product that is usable on its own (like a whole game, a set of miniatures, etc.), and a lot of low-moderate cost add-ins to drive excitement and investment. Doing that for print Battletech products would require a huge investment in the production steps Cubby was talking about, but there might be a package that would work.

Done well, Kickstarter nets both money and publicity. Done badly, Kickstarter will sink you.  :-\

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #646 on: 14 August 2018, 17:22:04 »
Not to distract from the Kickstarter conversation, which is fascinating, but I’ve been wondering...

Those cardboard punchouts from the new boxes look really fantastic. With CGL being a publishing company and not a mini company, what are the odds that we can get those as standalone products? 

I’m thinking quick and easy army builders for FLGS pickup games, like a Reinforcements: DCMS pack that has a bunch of Classics, Dragons, Jenners, and Panthers all in the same Sword of Light red so that you could have a unified-looking force ready to play as soon as you got back to the table.

Sure, they aren’t minis, but they would be something that a new player could throw down a few dollars for to get a feel for the game.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #647 on: 14 August 2018, 17:42:55 »
Sure, they aren’t minis

They're a huge step backwards in a market where you're competing with things like Star Wars and WH40k when it comes to how people spend money.

Why should someone who's interested in spending on, say, SW minis because of how they look, divert his $ to our game when we're offering cardboard?


Quote
but they would be something that a new player could throw down a few dollars for to get a feel for the game.

That's the beginner box. Cut any more and just quit altogether instead.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #648 on: 14 August 2018, 18:13:06 »
Bringing back some of the old map packs would do a lot.

They're not the old map packs per se, but something akin to them is in the works, as seen on the Coming Releases page.

Done well, Kickstarter nets both money and publicity.

To be done well, Kickstarters need both money and publicity, too.

Sometimes maybe the silly works because the silly is memorable and gets the brand stuck in peoples' heads. (The oversized map demo is amazing btw.)

Both the oversized demo and the Awesome statue were worthy efforts, but they're still basically organic marketing efforts--they're a physical thing that someone sees in person which does or does not inspire them to find out more about BattleTech. There's a slight signal boost via social media, but it's slight.

When I talk about a "thoughtful and aggressive digital marketing strategy," what I'm talking about is a multi-platform, integrated campaign that uses current tools like Google Display Network and top-flight social media targeting.

Let me put it this way: my day job is at a community health center with five centers across central Maryland, serving about 30,000 patients. We have a media buyer--a contracted firm that purchases all our advertising, both physical billboards, bus signage, etc. and much more importantly, our digital ad footprint including search and social. Our annual buy, including agency fees, is well into the six-figures, and we're not super large. The overview spreadsheet for our FY19 buy was brain-melting. The stuff that our buyers can do is awesome and terrifying.

So, try to imagine what Fantasy Flight (Asmodee), makers of all Star Wars tabletop games spends annually. THAT'S why you're seeing Facebook ads for Star Wars Destiny, or why Age of Rebellion ads keep popping up for you on websites you visit.

There's no comparison between FFG and CGL, but it's important to understand how the industry leaders do it, to understand why "send out more Demo Agents" or other organic strategies are not effective in growing sales.

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #649 on: 14 August 2018, 18:24:36 »
They're a huge step backwards in a market where you're competing with things like Star Wars and WH40k when it comes to how people spend money.

Why should someone who's interested in spending on, say, SW minis because of how they look, divert his $ to our game when we're offering cardboard?


That's the beginner box. Cut any more and just quit altogether instead.

A huge step back from what? Imagining how cool it would be to play with mechs that don’t have minis?  How many people are rolling up to Battletech games with full lances of Shimmyseen Classics?  How many of those people weren’t at Gencon?  Heck, how many people who were at Gencon are playing with any of the new scultps? 

Great minis are great, which is why I never suggested that Battletech abandon them, but great minis aren’t the defining reason for the success of X-Wing and 40K.  X-Wing is a surprisingly solid, fast, satisfying game that capitalizes on one of the most beloved properties of all time.  40K is an equally solid game with a compelling setting and classic fantasy tropes turned up to 11 and given guns.  Do they have cool minis? Of course they do. But don’t pretend like that is the sole advantage they have over Battletech’s 30 years of slow burn, unchanged-but-constantly-growing rules.

Speaking as someone who prefers Alpha Strike to CBT, the Lance Packs were a great option but only to a point.  Do I want plastic Victors?  Sure.  When can I buy JUST a bunch of plastic Victors, though, and not need to also build an accidental army of Blackjacks?  If CGL can get me a plastic Shimmyhammer in a single blister for $5-$10, that’s brilliant.  Sign me the hell up.  If they can get me one the size and quality of an X-Wing mini for $15 more that includes the necessary unit rules, even better. 

Until that happens, I’d rather be able to field SOMETHING that represents all of these cool new toys than waiting on plastic minis that already aren’t in the same league as the closest competitors and are currently only available, one each, in a $60 box.

And what’s wrong with cardboard anyway? The Pathfinder Pawns are extremely well-liked and there are plenty of mini-alternatives to those.   
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #650 on: 14 August 2018, 18:40:28 »
Case in point, Reaper Miniatures. 5-7 years ago they had minis in pretty much every store I went into. Three and a half kickstarters later, and there hasn't been restock of that in years; I'm told that now there's one US distro and no Canadian distros*.

???

I'm not sure I'm following...are you saying that you don't see many Reaper miniatures at stores, or just a specific subset of Reaper's miniatures? Because I've been to multiple gaming stores (including some G2K or Game Stop stores) in at least three different states (in multiple cities in those states) over the last year, and seen their miniatures (in some cases just Bones versions, in others both Bones and metal miniatures) in just about every one (and quite a selection of them in actual hobby gaming stores for the most part)...the only one that I don't recall seeing them in was one that appeared to basically only sell Warhammer and Warhammer 40K stuff...

And, as much as it pains me to say it, my FLGS has no issues getting Reaper miniatures for me, but can't seem to order any BattleTech minis from Iron Wind for me...

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #651 on: 14 August 2018, 18:41:14 »
A huge step back from what?

From selling something most people want to buy. The step back is that now you're selling something only some people want to buy. That's a bad step.


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Imagining how cool it would be to play with mechs that don’t have minis? 

I proxy.


Quote
How many people are rolling up to Battletech games with full lances of Shimmyseen Classics?  How many of those people weren’t at Gencon?  Heck, how many people who were at Gencon are playing with any of the new scultps? 

I'm not sure I'm following your point here.


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but great minis aren’t the defining reason for the success of X-Wing and 40K.

That's just objectively, factually wrong. Massively, completely, utterly wrong.


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But don’t pretend like that is the sole advantage they have over Battletech’s 30 years of slow burn, unchanged-but-constantly-growing rules.

Yes, beyond the enormous advantage in minis they have, they also have other advantages.


Quote
Until that happens, I’d rather be able to field SOMETHING that represents all of these cool new toys than waiting on plastic minis that already aren’t in the same league as the closest competitors and are currently only available, one each, in a $60 box.

See, that's the step that confuses me.


Quote
And what’s wrong with cardboard anyway? The Pathfinder Pawns are extremely well-liked and there are plenty of mini-alternatives to those.

Minis >>>> cardboard. I'm not sure I have to explain why that is. Or if there is still a need to explain that, I'm not sure how to go about that.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #652 on: 14 August 2018, 18:42:53 »
Yeah, I don't know if a KickStarter project would work all that well for BattleTech. I think about what BattleTech needs and the first thing that comes to mind would be a game supplement. I know it is being worked on, but an expansive map pack with various accessories as stretch goals seems the easiest and the most logical. You could work your way up to punch out counters to 3D, 'mech-scale terrain items. To me, that sounds awesome. Only problem is, that would only attract current BattleTech players. And as someone has said above, self-contained game systems is what is the most attractive to new players and potential backers.

So... CityTech 3rd ed, Alpha Strike box set, or -- now hear me out -- BattleTroops?

 :P

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #653 on: 14 August 2018, 19:01:19 »
Minis >>>> cardboard. I'm not sure I have to explain why that is. Or if there is still a need to explain that, I'm not sure how to go about that.

Something>>>>nothing.

You cannot buy plastic minis of the classics right now.  Now, you may have fun wth proxies, but A) that doesn’t help new players who, unlike us, don’t have armies of minis and B) isn’t a new product that can be put on the shelves.

And who says most people wouldn’t buy them? Where is that market research?  Am I imagining all of those Pathfinder Pawn reviews?  Or the reviews of the print and play minis on DriveThruRPG? 

You want minis.  I want minis, too.  Neither or those things means that a cheap alternative - again, an alternative to products that currently don’t exist - is a deadend product. 

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Paul

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #654 on: 14 August 2018, 19:08:25 »
Something>>>>nothing.

In the world of sales and branding, that's not true.


Quote
You cannot buy plastic minis of the classics right now.

But soon(tm) you will. So, at best, those cardboard cutouts are irrelevant (so a waste to produce) or, if you're right and they get appeal, they reduce potential sales of the minis.
Now sure, the Venn diagram will include a pie piece of people who won't buy plastic minis regardless, and only would spend a little $ on cardboard. In my view, catering to that niche isn't just unhelpful, it's actively detrimental.

But I'm beginning to see we are not going to achieve consensus.


Quote
And who says most people wouldn’t buy them? Where is that market research?  Am I imagining all of those Pathfinder Pawn reviews?  Or the reviews of the print and play minis on DriveThruRPG? 

Show me sales data on the pathfinder pawns, and perhaps I'll reconsider the validity of your position.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #655 on: 14 August 2018, 19:12:15 »
If the discussions about Kickstarter or cardboard standups (on which I may have more input) continue further, please take them to another thread. Thanks.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #656 on: 14 August 2018, 20:51:52 »
If the discussions about Kickstarter or cardboard standups (on which I may have more input) continue further, please take them to another thread. Thanks.

Just to be clear, consider that an official request. If asked I'll gladly create a thread for it.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #657 on: 14 August 2018, 21:52:22 »
I like the, "I may have more input" part of that.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #658 on: 15 August 2018, 04:20:48 »
A quick note about PDF products: they only sell to established, fairly hardcore fans. I've seen the numbers from several different companies, and they're MINISCULE. We're talking on the order of a couple hundred purchases, often far less then that. Since people tend to demand that PDFs sell for much less than the hardcopy, the margin of profit on them is razor-thin, yet they still have to be made to the same quality as the print books.

Bluntly, a lot of folks may say they're fine with basic text and minimal graphics, but in reality books like that sell on the order of maybe - MAYBE - a couple dozen copies in PDF. Perhaps all of those people really are buying copies, but few beyond them are, and you still have to pay a writer, editor, and layout guy at the bare minimum. PDFs are not the solution.
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Re: Upcoming Releases Volume XIII: Unlucky Release Edition
« Reply #659 on: 15 August 2018, 07:56:48 »
And don't tell me there is not enough bandwidth for niche products right now: I KNOW someone had to do layout on those energy drink labels!!!

Doing layout on energy drinks is the only way Cubby got Shattered Fortress done in time!
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