Author Topic: What would the Clans make of the In Vitro from Space: Above and Beyond?  (Read 2081 times)

JA Baker

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Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this.

Just something that popped into my head today: both settings have genetically engineered humans, only have very different views on their place in society.

So, if a Trueborn was to meet an In Vitro, what would they think of them?

https://spaceaboveandbeyond.fandom.com/wiki/In_Vitro
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Major Headcase

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Depends; trueborn warrior? Or scientist? The warrior sees everything through an equation of strength vs weakness, so while intellectually he may think "at least it's not a Freebirth!" He would still rate it as pathetic and flawed compared to a Trueborn Clanner and wouldn't care about the technical details or give allowances for the early stage of genetic manipulation they represent. All that would matter is that they weren't as good as HIM.
A scientist would probably be curious and then totally dismissive at how primitive of execution and technique they are. Once he saw there was nothing new or innovative to learn, the scientist would move on to whatever his next technical obsession was and forget they existed...
Yes, Clanners are that 1 dimensional...   :thumbsup:

Nemesis

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Not a lot. IIRC 'tanks' aren't really any smarter, faster, or stronger than regular humans. They may be a bit tougher, but it's been 25 years since I watched the show so I can't be sure. In any case, Cooper wasn't really any different from the rest of the squadron, aside from being a sullen, petulant man-child who lashed out with little provocation. That had more to do with his life experiences than with any genetic tinkering. See McQueen for a counterpoint.

A better comparison would be with the Nietzscheans from Andromeda, who could possibly out-Clan the Clans.
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SteveRestless

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The Clans are going to have some degree of bias because even if others are born of the tube, they won't be able to trace their lineage back to the loyal warriors of the Star League who followed Nicholas into founding the clans.

Despite being born with Dragoon scientific assistance, they generally did not see Phelan as any different from any other freeborn, and he even had a distant link to the lineages in question.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Colt Ward

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The Clans are going to have some degree of bias because even if others are born of the tube, they won't be able to trace their lineage back to the loyal warriors of the Star League who followed Nicholas into founding the clans.

Despite being born with Dragoon scientific assistance, they generally did not see Phelan as any different from any other freeborn, and he even had a distant link to the lineages in question.

Except by 3134 we have half a dozen or so Bloodnames that are not descended from the Star League in Exile.  Kell, Brahe and Magnusson are the ones that come to mind.
Colt Ward
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SteveRestless

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Well, If an ilkhan or I guess Khan? declares some blooodnames for them, they might get similar treatment.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Colt Ward

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Well, If an ilkhan or I guess Khan? declares some blooodnames for them, they might get similar treatment.

Custom that came out- Trial of Propagation, once a year a Khan can nominate a presumably freebirth (?) to form a new Bloodhouse.  The Clan Council votes on it and the candidate founder then fights the Trial based on the vote count- of course with those opposing bidding between themselves to Refuse, bringing the numbers down somewhat.  I really wish they had followed up on Brahe becoming a Warden Wolf bloodname.  If the candidate loses, they are ineligible for ever being nominated again.  Bloodname counts can also be propagated but afaik they have not gone over the 25 count- in fact before 3134 the implication is none of the Bloodnames are at the full 25 holders.

One thing the Clans would find interesting is the 'forced growth' of In Vitros . . . imagine being able to decant a 10 year old to begin training rather than having a normal 9+ month steel womb gestation and then years of pouring resources into growing the prospect until they officially begin warrior training.  While they may weed some out, its still a hefty chunk of lead time and they do not really begin selection until they start them fighting.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2020, 13:47:59 by Colt Ward »
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Mecha82

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While they may weed some out, its still a hefty chunk of lead time and they do not really begin selection until they start them fighting.

This is something I find personally odd thing in Way of the Clans. For society that claims to hate waste they sure love to waste potential warriors during training by having them send to other castes before training is even finished. Instead of you know doing that after trial to those that failed it. Then again maybe there is something that I am missing and that there is method to madness.   
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SteveRestless

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This is something I find personally odd thing in Way of the Clans. For society that claims to hate waste they sure love to waste potential warriors during training by having them send to other castes before training is even finished. Instead of you know doing that after trial to those that failed it. Then again maybe there is something that I am missing and that there is method to madness.

That's only a waste if you don't value the other castes.

The whole program of artifical birth is designed to isolate the non-warriors from the horrors of war, by ensuring that war is only fought by mass-produced warriors who are insulated from the consequences of death by the clan system.

A normal man, with a family who cares for him, and depends on him, for him to go to war and die would be a tragedy that would harm everyone involved. But the clan way, with a trueborn going to war, can only find fulfillment through death in battle. with that in mind, they can be extremely stringent in their filtering process, ensuring that people who are not diehard warriors, cut out to be the elite of the elite are given a life with a different purpose, a safer one.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Colt Ward

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This is something I find personally odd thing in Way of the Clans. For society that claims to hate waste they sure love to waste potential warriors during training by having them send to other castes before training is even finished. Instead of you know doing that after trial to those that failed it. Then again maybe there is something that I am missing and that there is method to madness.

Pre-warrior training is weeding out those who are not suited.  Evantha talks about how the Elemental training removes those who talk (and will not shut up) while nervous.  Pilots who are agoraphobic do not go on to ASF, instead they become VTOL pilots.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Vehrec

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That's only a waste if you don't value the other castes.

The whole program of artifical birth is designed to isolate the non-warriors from the horrors of war, by ensuring that war is only fought by mass-produced warriors who are insulated from the consequences of death by the clan system.

A normal man, with a family who cares for him, and depends on him, for him to go to war and die would be a tragedy that would harm everyone involved. But the clan way, with a trueborn going to war, can only find fulfillment through death in battle. with that in mind, they can be extremely stringent in their filtering process, ensuring that people who are not diehard warriors, cut out to be the elite of the elite are given a life with a different purpose, a safer one.

Counterpoint-the whole program of artificial birth is designed to isolate children from outside supporting structures and indoctrinate them in a culture of ultra-violence, where they are encouraged by artificial scarcity and beatings, and only able to retaliate against those lower than them on the totem pole of violence.  Then, you shed dozens of boys and girls halfway or more through this process. (standardized test performance in the fifth grade *generally* predicts standardized test performance in the 12th grade, so go ahead and weed early, especially if you can genetically and epigenetically predict final body size and strength.) Then, you take these children, who can only find worth in battle, and throw them into a lower caste.  They will grow up there, without parents, without support structures.  Many of them will take their own lives.  Many more will beat their wives and husbands.  Some will push their own children into freebirth sibkos, which will instill the same trauma, but have much lower chances of being anything more than coffin-stuffers.  The violence and abuse of the Sibkos spills out into greater society, and those who graduate successfully are *still* traumatized and are expected to rule over those other castes after yet more murder on their parts.

Read this article on the spartan agoge to get some idea of what the actual consequences of this kind of systematic child abuse/indoctrination is-products of the sibko ought to be ' emotionally stunted, prone to violence and social isolation – as well as conformist and inflexible'.  And what do you know, the products of that system are generally so!
« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 19:14:11 by Vehrec »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Not a lot. IIRC 'tanks' aren't really any smarter, faster, or stronger than regular humans. They may be a bit tougher, but it's been 25 years since I watched the show so I can't be sure. In any case, Cooper wasn't really any different from the rest of the squadron, aside from being a sullen, petulant man-child who lashed out with little provocation. That had more to do with his life experiences than with any genetic tinkering. See McQueen for a counterpoint.

A better comparison would be with the Nietzscheans from Andromeda, who could possibly out-Clan the Clans.

They can certainly out-Clan the Clans when it comes to short-sighted self-sabotage.
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Alan Grant

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On the point about the show....

From the time of their creation, through everything that happened to them later, it's clear that the In Vitro's are seen as "less than" human in the eyes of some. So much happens to them that they have no control over. They are birthed to serve others, trained to serve others (no career fairs, this is your task, go fight and possibly die for us), then discarded when no longer needed and cast out onto the street. It's clear that they just don't have the same rights and privileges as people in society and that there are strong biases against them. That is a stark contradiction from how Trueborns of the warrior caste are seen in Clan society, they are the ruling class of society.

So imagine whatever society you are in, you belong to the ruling class. Then you go visit someplace else where people "kinda like you" are treated badly by the ruling class.

There's your answer.
« Last Edit: 09 July 2020, 05:46:28 by Alan Grant »