Author Topic: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.  (Read 1932 times)

truetanker

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Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« on: 16 April 2020, 18:10:35 »
I want to use orbital counter batteries against an enemy combatant.


At what range is the Atmosphere interface at from the ground.

Can Sub-Class weapons reach orbit.
Can I use the clan ER Large?
What about HVACs, LB-X-ACs, Ultras and RAC 2s?
Enhanced LRM? or maybe the Extended LRMs?

While it shouldn't be a problem but again, Light Gauss Rifles shooting up?

Thanks...

Trying to find the threshold of level in the number of elevations up to outer atmosphere.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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worktroll

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #1 on: 16 April 2020, 18:40:12 »
No 'Mech-scale weapons will reach space. As per total warfare,

Code: [Select]
LOW-ALTITUDE TABLE
Altitude Minimum (in meters) Maximum (in meters)
High-Altitude Table 18,000+
10 5,001 18,000
9 2,001 5,000
8 1,001 2,000
7 751 1,000
6 501 750
5 251 500
4 151 250
3 101 150
2 51 100
1 (NOE) 1 50
0 (Ground) 0 0

Mt Everest is just under 9,000m. The extended range of an ERLL is around another 900-1000m. So even if the rules didn't specifically say so, nope.

Obviously on airless worlds you could easily create situations where orbits are sufficienctly low that they're just above local topography that an ambush could be organised.
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truetanker

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #2 on: 16 April 2020, 18:47:30 »
Ok then can a Sub-Class weapon reach orbit?

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

worktroll

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #3 on: 16 April 2020, 18:53:39 »
Sorry, having trouble finding rule references for them.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

truetanker

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #4 on: 16 April 2020, 19:05:14 »
SCL/1 = extreme 28-36
SCL/2 = extreme 20-24
SCL/3 = extreme 19-22

SCC/L = extreme 22-28
SCC/M = extreme 19-24
SCC/H = extreme 16-20

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

worktroll

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #5 on: 16 April 2020, 19:19:11 »
I have a recollection that only cap missiles could fire from the surface to space, which might allow sub-cap.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

truetanker

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #6 on: 16 April 2020, 19:24:32 »
From Sarna: ( located in explanation section )

The Sub-Capital Missile launchers found in these systems were also pressed into service as "rocket artillery" to assist the Word of Blake's ground based defenders.

But reason I'm asking is that Capital weapons can be fired into orbit, and these weapons are found under that heading...

Tactical Operations, p. 343

(  :-[ My copy is somewhere in storage, where I packed it up. )

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

2ndAcr

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #7 on: 16 April 2020, 20:20:37 »
Yes, all Capitol weapons can reach orbit. But NAC round that miss fall back to the surface. Just so you know. Laser, Missiles, NPPC and their sub Cap versions just keep going. Sub Cap Cannon will also fall back to the surface.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Sub-Capital_Laser

truetanker

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #8 on: 16 April 2020, 20:23:25 »
Sweet...

Thanks Worktroll and 2ndAcr!

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

dgorsman

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #9 on: 16 April 2020, 21:53:31 »
Strategic Operations doesn't mention anything about misses "falling back".  The range is based on offsets for firing through atmospheric hexes (6 hexes per) and the atmosphere/space interface (3 extra), plus any space range.  You're basically looking at capital and subcap weapons with a range of long or extreme, unless you're shooting at a target lower in the atmosphere.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #10 on: 16 April 2020, 22:03:05 »
What dgorsman said.

Yes, all Capitol weapons can reach orbit. But NAC round that miss fall back to the surface. Just so you know. Laser, Missiles, NPPC and their sub Cap versions just keep going. Sub Cap Cannon will also fall back to the surface.

No they won't. There's nothing in the rules that says shots fall back to the surface. In fact, given the range they're capable of reaching and still accurately hitting a target in the time they have to do it, they have to be moving significantly faster than escape velocity. They aren't coming back.
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sillybrit

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #11 on: 19 April 2020, 00:14:17 »
Only capital and sub-capital weapons with a range of long or extreme can fire at orbital targets for standard atmosphere worlds.

Per TW p235, medium capital range is up to 24 hexes. Per TW p236, each ground and atmospheric hex counts as six hexes for determining range, with interface hexes counting as 3 hexes for range, so with 4 atmospheric rows, that's 27 hexes total. Add 1 or more hexes depending upon how high the target is above the interface, then that's a minimum range of 28 required.

Orbit-to-ground fire is obviously directed towards a ground hex, so that means a ship's return fire is counted at a minimum of range 33. Orbit-to-surface shots also suffer a +2 hit penalty per atmosphere row, for a total +8 penalty for a standard atmosphere, to partially offset the -4 modifier they get for shooting a ground hex.

Altogether, what this means is that a ground battery on a standard atmosphere planet can shoot at a DropShip/WarShip that's up to 18 hexes away for long-range fire or 28 for extreme-range (4 atmospheric, 1 interface, plus 13 (long) or 23 (extreme) space), while the DropShip/WarShip can only return fire up to 13 hexes at long-range and 23 at extreme (1 ground, 4 atmospheric, 1 interface, plus 7 or 17 space).

Assuming both are Gun 4, then the DropShip/WarShip would be needing 12s at long-range (base 4 + 4 for range + 8 for atmosphere - 4 for ground hex target). That'd be 14s at extreme, and you can still shoot, because you're going to get artillery scatter. If a friendly can TAG the target, you get a -2 bonus, and each subsequent shot gets a -1 modifier if you have a friendly spotter with LOS (you want a role for LAMs, this is it in the SLDF - forward observers for ortillery). A friendly DropShip in the same Naval C3 net as the shooter can also provide a -2 modifier if it's flying or grounded close to the target ground hex (see SO p105 for the criteria it must meet).

For the ground-to-orbit battery shooting back, it would only need 8s at long-range (base 4 + 4 for range) and 10s at extreme. Direct fire weapons do suffer a +1 penalty per point of velocity change by the target in both the turn of shooting and the turn of arrival. So assuming the target ship is slow accelerating by 1 velocity each turn, then an energy weapon would suffer a +1 penalty, while a ballistic would suffer +2. The target ship would also have the option of evading per normal rules. Missiles are messier, they don't suffer a hit penalty for velocity changes, but they take 1d6 turns to get to the target and auto miss if the target had moved out of range. Ballistics can also auto miss if the target moved out of range during the turn the fire was due to arrive.

The rationale for ground batteries not suffering a +2 hit penalty per atmospheric hex is that unlike WarShips they have sensors optimized for the local atmospheric conditions. It's not clear whether ground DropShips conducting surface-to-orbit fire enjoy the same benefit, so a question will be asked.

marcussmythe

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Re: Orbitary Combat : Help me understand it.
« Reply #12 on: 30 April 2020, 19:41:03 »
Looking at those THNs, the phrase ‘The ships a fool who fights a fort’ definitely springs to mind.