BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Drewbacca on 10 December 2019, 03:34:14
-
I am interested in getting everyone's take on this. The first Clan I ever really followed was the Diamond Sharks, I liked the fact that they were not as driven by the warrior caste as other clans. Then I followed the Snow Ravens, I liked their use of warships, then the Hell's Horses for the equality of forces, the Scorpions because they just seemed so weird and currently the Wolverines. In between I have also cast an eye on the Ghost Bears and a few others, but I always come back to the Sharks, Ravens, Scorpions, Horses and Wolverines.
The thing is, they are all pretty much considered un-clanlike, outsiders, and in the case of the Wolverines, completely against the clan system.
What I am interested in hearing is how you all view this. Leaving the Wolverines aside, are these clans really un-clanlike or are they just clans with a bit more character depth than "You dare refuse my batchall?!?!?"
-
I think the differences between individual Clans are grossly overstated. From a normal person's viewpoint, it'd be hard to tell one Clan Warrior from another - they're (bred and raised to be) dangerous aggressive sociopathic egomaniacs by anyone's standard and will beat you to a pulp on the spot if you disagree. The Begbie character from "Trainspotting" is what I would compare the Clan warrior mindset to.
Beyond that, it's a case of the early comic-style beer-and-pretzels BattleTech game colliding with the more mature CGL era BattleTech scifi universe.
In their raw early stages the Clans were portrayed as a culture that I always felt could never work. Then again, skirting Rule 4, it's astounding what governments in the real world can enforce on their subordinate populations (or manipulate them into) when the cuffs are off, so maybe the Clans aren't as far out there as my pampered liberal self likes to think after all.
Over time, as authors explored the Clans ever deeper, we got to see that their culture is rigid but more nuanced that it appeared at first. Phil Lee in particular can be credited with putting a veneer of realism on the Clans.
In retrospective, you could argue that the Inner Sphere - who served as the viewpoint for real-world players and readers - only got a warped idea of Clan culture through the Warrior caste who ran roughshod over the IS in the Clan Invasion. It was not until much later that anyone got a good look at the Homeworlds, the civilian castes, or life under Clan occupation. The Warriors are not the end all-be all of Clan culture, but they style themselves as its pinnacle and that was all the IS ever knew of the Clans.
That said, they had the Wars of Reaving coming for a long time, and Clan "culture" imploded pretty much along the obvious lines where it should. Even if that happened a century or two late. Their contact with the Inner Sphere was a watershed moment that put Nicholas' mad vision to a reality check and it fared poorly. The Clans have been adapting ever since.
-
I always felt as though the Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars gave the readers and Inner Sphere one view of the clans that might not be quite as complete as it seems. The Falcons are the die-hard OG "True" Clanners, the Smoke Jaguars are "Might makes Right" pirates, really the only other comparable clan to that is the Steel Vipers. Every other clan is "Weird" in comparison to these guys.
-
Every Clan believes itself to be the epitome of Nicky's vision of a perfect society, it's everyone else who's un-Clanlike. And if he didn't necessarily spell out the way they do business as being the correct way to do things, well, it's obvious that that's what he meant.
-
Every Clan believes itself to be the epitome of Nicky's vision of a perfect society, it's everyone else who's un-Clanlike. And if he didn't necessarily spell out the way they do business as being the correct way to do things, well, it's obvious that that's what he meant.
Yup!
-
Every Clan believes itself to be the epitome of Nicky's vision of a perfect society, it's everyone else who's un-Clanlike. And if he didn't necessarily spell out the way they do business as being the correct way to do things, well, it's obvious that that's what he meant.
Well, the Star Adders are herein the exception from the rule.
-
I always felt as though the Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars gave the readers and Inner Sphere one view of the clans that might not be quite as complete as it seems. The Falcons are the die-hard OG "True" Clanners, the Smoke Jaguars are "Might makes Right" pirates, really the only other comparable clan to that is the Steel Vipers. Every other clan is "Weird" in comparison to these guys.
Yeah, I kinda feel like there are so many "Clans with character" who have their own unique weird thing, that it's the Falcons and the Jags who are the real outliers. There aren't that many "normal" Clans anymore.
-
I understand finding value in clans that have a unique quirk that suits your personality but I don't understand why people have such a harsh view of the baseline clan attitude. When I first heard of the clans I fell in love with a culture that places honor above all else.
It might sound strange but I am genuinely perplexed that the Inner Sphere didn't welcome the clans with open arms to rid them of their corrupt, manipulative, greedy, selfish leaders to usher in an era of high morals, honor, and peace.
-
the clans ...... and peace.
Hahahaha
You said "Clans" & "Peace" in the same sentence.
;D ;D ;D
These are the guys that roll mechs in to take what they want if their merchants can't get a good enough deal, that is, if they even let the merchants have a chance at trade negotiations first.
-
Hahahaha
You said "Clans" & "Peace" in the same sentence.
;D ;D ;D
These are the guys that roll mechs in to take what they want if their merchants can't get a good enough deal, that is, if they even let the merchants have a chance at trade negotiations first.
I'm speaking of peace in regards to the civilian castes as the clan system puts significant checks against wanton, wasteful warfare that would obliterate the lives of civilians. The warriors will always fight but the vast majority of the IS would know peace under this system.
Would that peace also come with living a largely sterile life of servitude to the greater good? Yeah but is that somehow inherently worse than living with the endless IS wars and conflicts in which civilians are often specifically targeted?
Clan culture is idealistic and that idealism appeals to me.
-
Even in the Draconis Combine, civilians have more rights than they do in the Clan system (with very few exceptions, most of which resulted from individual Clans changing to become less restrictive).
And the Clans live in a constant state of warfare, there's no peace to be granted, especially given that you now live in a planned economy run by a bunch of emotionally crippled child-soldiers. The average expectancy of a civilian living on a Clan world was about 55 years for a laborer- that's like living in Nigeria. And in exchange, you now got more restrictions on how you could travel, what you could buy, and what entertainment was available to you. Not really a great incentive.
-
Unless of course two Clanners got into it and your village was in the middle of the area designated as their Circle. So sad, too bad, but atleast Warrior B has conclusively proven that Miller Light is better because it "Tastes Great" rather than being "Less Filling."
Or you're part of the Jade Falcon Scientist Caste and the Warriors have decided that in order to make sure that no Society taint remains, they're going to annihilate every one of you...
Or just be a Smoke Jaguar civilian...
-
I always found it disappointing that the original novel authors lacking in creativity that they made all the protagonists rebels and misfits with suspiciously 20thC American points of view. OTHO the mainstream Clanners were uniformly antagonists.
I am not sure what is says that the company didn't have enough confidence in a culture they created to paint it in a positive light.
-
Unless of course two Clanners got into it and your village was in the middle of the area designated as their Circle. So sad, too bad, but atleast Warrior B has conclusively proven that Miller Light is better because it "Tastes Great" rather than being "Less Filling."
The original intent, at least, of the nature of Clan Trials was to avoid this sort of situation, and we rarely see any but the largest of defined circles including this sort of thing. And in the few examples I can think of, of limited-scope trials incorporating civilian infrastructure, it was evacuated first. That's what seperates a Trial of Possession from an Objective Raid, for example. Instead of fighting in the midst of your objective or occupied cities, the fight can be conducted in unoccupied terrain, sparing needless damage and waste. If your opponent insists on defining the battlefield to include helpless lower castes, you have ample cause to mock them for being such a poor warrior that they need to hide behind human shields.
-
I am not sure what is says that the company didn't have enough confidence in a culture they created to paint it in a positive light.
Was there ever an intent to paint the Clans in a positive light, in the beginning? I suspect not. They were mean to be an alien, near-unstoppable threat that was at right angles to the Inner Sphere feudal lord system. My take is that they lacked the confidence to get fully behind such aggressive, eugenically driven, and expansionist cultures, and started to 'soften' some of them in what I personally consider sheer revisionism.
-
Blame Robert Thurston.
-
Perhaps. But Thurston's Falcons were not 'good', in the 'sharing & caring' sense we saw the Wolves in Exile, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Hell's Horses become.
I mean, I wouldn't like to be a lower caste for the Jade Falcons or Smoke Jaguars. But I find the 'average' mindset of the way those clans are described more consistent than the ones I mentioned above. Consistent doesn't mean 'better quality of life', but I find them more believable than the typical depiction of the others.
The Clans aren't meant to be perfect societies - far from it. But "real boats rock"; I'd rather see the Falcons coming down hard on their merchants, for example, than seeing them join in a big "kumbaya" circle.
-
Was there ever an intent to paint the Clans in a positive light, in the beginning? I suspect not. They were mean to be an alien, near-unstoppable threat that was at right angles to the Inner Sphere feudal lord system. My take is that they lacked the confidence to get fully behind such aggressive, eugenically driven, and expansionist cultures, and started to 'soften' some of them in what I personally consider sheer revisionism.
I am
Currently reading forever faithful which details the short and long term fall out of the jag annihilation and it does a good job of “ humanizing “ the jags as a society. The lower castes were shocked and dismayed by the defeat of the warrior caste but also longed for the firm hand which had ruled them
-
Perhaps. But Thurston's Falcons were not 'good', in the 'sharing & caring' sense we saw the Wolves in Exile, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Hell's Horses become.
No, but Thurston was the first author to write with a Clan perspective and generally seemed to try to depict the warriors' treatment of lower casts as being justified. At least the way I remember it.
-
I am
Currently reading forever faithful which details the short and long term fall out of the jag annihilation and it does a good job of “ humanizing “ the jags as a society. The lower castes were shocked and dismayed by the defeat of the warrior caste but also longed for the firm hand which had ruled them
Haven't read that yet, and must make a point to do so. But this is the sort of thing I - me, no-one else - considers revisionism. After all, we can't be sympathetic with 'bad' bad guys, can we?
(side point: S M Stirling does a good job with his Drakas. They're bad to the bone, and Stirling's craft means you can start sympathising, and then he pulls you up by the nuts.)
-
I am
Currently reading forever faithful which details the short and long term fall out of the jag annihilation and it does a good job of “ humanizing “ the jags as a society. The lower castes were shocked and dismayed by the defeat of the warrior caste but also longed for the firm hand which had ruled them
Well, yes... however I'd argue that this whole novel is a bit of a retcon because here the Clan protagonists do everything right and avoid precisely the pitfalls that led to the Smoke Jaguars' downfall. They're entirely too easy going and sociable compared to their earlier depictions - and there is actually a dialogue in the book where they talk about logistics and how any warrior would (have to) understand logistics... when it was specifically Clan shortsightedness and logistic incompetence that put the brakes on them during the invasion.
-
I understand finding value in clans that have a unique quirk that suits your personality but I don't understand why people have such a harsh view of the baseline clan attitude. When I first heard of the clans I fell in love with a culture that places honor above all else.
It might sound strange but I am genuinely perplexed that the Inner Sphere didn't welcome the clans with open arms to rid them of their corrupt, manipulative, greedy, selfish leaders to usher in an era of high morals, honor, and peace.
Zorg : I hate warriors, too narrow-minded. I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. Now a real killer, when he picked up the ZF-1, would've immediately asked about the little red button on the bottom of the gun.
-
But, back to the topic, each Clan started off as designed. Due to the quirks of their founders, each became un-Clanlike to their fellow Clans.
Blood Spirit became obsessed with maintaining martial camaraderie as initially charged. They did this to the detriment of their own needs.
Fire Mandrills fractured into a micro-mirror of the Clans as a whole. Seriously, how did they survive so long.
I could go on about each Clan, but you know the story. They each developed their own interpretation on what Darling Nikki envisioned. At the end of the day, each Clan was un-Clanlike, because they each had a different view as to what a Clan was.
-
I'm speaking of peace in regards to the civilian castes as the clan system puts significant checks against wanton, wasteful warfare that would obliterate the lives of civilians. The warriors will always fight but the vast majority of the IS would know peace under this system.
Would that peace also come with living a largely sterile life of servitude to the greater good? Yeah but is that somehow inherently worse than living with the endless IS wars and conflicts in which civilians are often specifically targeted?
Clan culture is idealistic and that idealism appeals to me.
Gladius said it better than I ever could in another thread:
“You’re going to liberate us?”
“Absolutely!”
“How?”
“By forcing you into a brutal caste system where your destiny is decided by your genetics. Your children will have no choice as to their path in life, and simply follow your own careers. Oh, they might, if they are exceptional, be allowed to cross castes, but I assure you they will be discriminated against as much as possible for daring to rise above their station. Almost none will ever be warriors, of course, and since only warriors actually have rights, the vote or agency in general, you won’t have any worries: just labour for the Clan, do as you’re told, and you’ll be fine (don’t do as you’re told, and we might have to wipe out your family: bad blood can’t be allowed to breed, you know).”
“Hmmmm. Tempting. What about our culture? Religion? Language?”
“All culture not Clan is obselete: your customs will change to match ours. Silly superstitions? You can keep those, as long as they praise the Great Father, the Founders and Clan <X>. Language might be a problem: you’ll need to forget all that moon-speak and talk proper Star League English (with the extra words we’ve made up ourselves) like civilised people.”
“Okay, you make a fine sales pitch. Here’s my counter offer.”
Artillery rumbles, a thousand tanks rev their engines, and a million boots start marching ...
That is what it is to be Clan.
Yes, being a Warrior would be ... fun. More fun than a lower caste. I'm reminded of something I encountered in a church teen group back in the 90s. They asked what fictional character they would like to be. Many of the boys answered "Darth Vader", or "Terminator". Why? Because they had power, and didn't have to worry about consequences.
Anyone keep Deathshadow's screed on what he felt it meant to be Clan?
-
Yes, being a Warrior would be ... fun. More fun than a lower caste. I'm reminded of something I encountered in a church teen group back in the 90s. They asked what fictional character they would like to be. Many of the boys answered "Darth Vader", or "Terminator". Why? Because they had power, and didn't have to worry about consequences.
It's why 99% of isekai fiction is about the protagonist becoming an OP character who got frontloaded with powers and can just run around killing monsters who exist only to be killed while everyone loves them or about the protagonist becoming an OP character who got frontloaded with powers and as such can show how superior they are by sneering at the losers who reject them.
-
Gladius said it better than I ever could in another thread:
That is what it is to be Clan.
Yes, being a Warrior would be ... fun. More fun than a lower caste. I'm reminded of something I encountered in a church teen group back in the 90s. They asked what fictional character they would like to be. Many of the boys answered "Darth Vader", or "Terminator". Why? Because they had power, and didn't have to worry about consequences.
Anyone keep Deathshadow's screed on what he felt it meant to be Clan?
Is the burden of leadership and promise of an early death among clan warriors truly "fun"? Or even an inherently "better" way of life than the other castes?
On one hand there is the clan ideal, and on the other what often turns into the clan reality but the design is to minimize the horrible and wasteful damage human beings can cause one another and replace it with a sterile environment where individual freedom comes FAR second to the needs of the greater good.
This concept isn't new in our own world but the angle is slightly different. The clan system is a reaction to violence and our own inherent nature of self destruction rather than to an economic or social system. I see the virtues and values of that system as better than the those of the IS. If not better than more fulfilling for the individual. To be a part of something greater than themselves.
-
Except the "greater good" ends up defined by the most hyper-aggressive individuals in a society brought up to revere warrior traits. Trials beat principles, unless the principles belong to a more efficient warrior.
I'm afraid I can't bring up historical examples, as they're way over the rule boundaries on politics/religion. But any oligarchic society - control by a small group by means of power, be it economic or military - never ends well. And oligarchic societies who begin to relax their iron grips rarely survive in their original form.
Going hypothetical, you've got two ends of the spectrum - Falcons, and Diamond Sharks. After the Society upset, the Falcons will need to clamp down on their lesser castes, because any sign of weakness would lead to pressures. But that only means that the lower castes realise, sooner or later, "we have nothing to lose." And one of these days the Diamond Shark merchants will present the Warriors with invoices for use of their OmniMechs, and foreclosures on their ammunition ... and over time, the Merchants become the ogliarchs.
-
But any oligarchic society - control by a small group by means of power, be it economic or military - never ends well. And oligarchic societies who begin to relax their iron grips rarely survive in their original form.
Pardon the question, but I have to ask, is there any polity in the BTU that isn't an oligarchy of some kind?
It seems to me that the clans are slapped with the 'unrealistic social dynamics' thing rather unfairly, because all the factions in the BTU are unrealistic. Heck, by 3150 I'm pretty sure the Combine has done medieval Japanese feudalism longer than actual medieval Japanese feudalism ever lasted in history, and that was hardly a stable structure during the time it actually did exist. Considering that some of these states have been going on since the 2200s, they are all vastly more stable than nearly every state in human history.
Going back to the original question, I'd say that all the clans are enriched by the diversity of their cultures, to a point. The Falcons wouldn't be 'clanlike' if there weren't 'unclanlike' clans to contrast against, and those other clans wouldn't be as interesting if they didn't have stick-in-the-mud conservatives like the Falcons to be different from and all the clans were like 'you do you, man'. Part of the problem with having too many clans is that the writers start running out of differentiating traits to give them, so they start blurring together; the Ice Hellions, for example, came across as basically Smoke Jaguars on (more) meth, so there's a balancing act that has to be made.
If you'll excuse the tangent, I didn't get it for a long time, but I finally realised the thing about the BTU: it wasn't meant to be a wargaming universe where all the different players identify themselves with all the different factions, but a role playing universe where there are definite good guys and bad guys, and you're not meant to identify with the bad guys. The 3025 Draconis Combine and CapCon aren't meant to be sympathetic or have redeeming features; all 3050 clans other than Wolf are supposed to be either evil crusaders or craven cowards for letting the evil crusaders invade. KSD's rise to power seems utterly incomprehensible because they gave her so few positive attributes it doesn't seem she could brush her teeth without cackling maniacally and twirling her moustache; it's mind-boggling that Cameron St. Jamais's facial hair doesn't include a moustache. And let's not even go into Mad Malvina, Deranged Daoshen or Crazy Caleb.
But the funny thing was, players identified with those factions anyway, whether it was because they were 'cool bad guys' or because a writer gave a sympathetic view of them, so there was demand for elaboration of all the different clans, among other factions. All these clans seem 'unclanlike' because the original clans weren't meant to be seriously different to begin with: who really cares what tribe an orc is from in D&D? 'Sympathetic' is antithetical to the original narrative concept of the clans, so any sympathetic traits can seem 'unclanlike'; similarly, because almost every villain faction in the BTU is some variation of oppressive conformist, simply having any differentiating traits at all can seem like a deviation from the hypothetical clan norm.
-
I wouldn't necessarily call the Clans an oligarchy per se. Historically, oligarchies eventually die out.
The Clans, and specifically the Warriors, are more like Orwell's idea of "The Party". The Party exists simply to perpetuate the Party. The Warrior Caste exists to perpetuate itself.
-
Rebs, which is the very definition of an ogliarchy - a small group concentrating power. We're more familiar with wealth-based ogliarchies, true.
Hallu, the question becomes is there social mobility? Arguably, your comment re role-playing universe is spot on. Davion and Steiner societies have social mobility, and are loosely portrayed as meritocracies. Capellan and Kuritan societies arguably have very limited social mobility, and no-one ever put enough work into the Mariks to be sure one way or the other ;)
And yes, the Clans are made more potentially interesting by diversification; but 20 (or 14-16) Clans were just too many to develop properly based on FASA/FanPro/CGL resources.
-
Gotcha. I guess I tend to think of Oligarchy as something different. Hence they die out eventually.
I like to think the Clans will never die ^-^
-
Thurston seemed to take a lot from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World when writing the Falcons. That doesn't seem to be a sympathetic portrayal to me. You have a bunch of child soldiers, all brothers and sisters, who are encouraged to have sex with one another for fun. All while way under what we would consider the age of consent. But be sure not to develop any feelings for one another, they're your competition, after all. Several of Aidan's sibkin commit suicide (one stands up in the middle of a live fire exercise, one jumps in front of a tank) and his reaction is to shrug. Aidan is seen as unClanlike by his prison guard trainers (who also have sex with the kids, on demand) because he reads books and because he has feelings for his favorite sister-girlfriend.
It's a horrendous society. You might feel sympathy for Aidan, but that culture is an Orwellian nightmare. It just has big robots and so that's cool. They are clearly intended to be the villains.
-
And yet some people find elements of the Clan presented, compelling/interesting.
Hence in my opinion the revisionism, to try and make some clans less horrendous.
I prefer the Clans as something to frighten Spheroid children with. Yes, there's a part of me that's Jaguar/Falcon, that longs to be able to challenge the head of Infrastructure to a trial of negation, or to take my Compliance team-mates out in a Star for a live fire exercise against the Director who fails to do his attestations. But ...
-
It's a horrendous society. You might feel sympathy for Aidan, but that culture is an Orwellian nightmare. It just has big robots and so that's cool. They are clearly intended to be the villains.
This cannot be emphasised enough. Even the nicest, friendliest and most well-adjusted Trueborn warrior has been raised in a brutal, competitive society where might makes right and resorting to violence is not only the best option but the one that earns you the most respect.
-
Battletech has gone on for so long, under the control of so many authors, with so many conflicting personal takes on things and ideas of how the universe should be, with relatively little factual information about things beyond the warfare side of the universe that different players can look at the same factions and see them two completely different ways without either one being wrong.
We're given information that can make the clans seem worse than the combine or confederation could possibly be to their citizens, and we're also given information that directly contradicts that, like the troubles the combine had with liberated citizens who had grown accustomed to life under the Jaguar and had to be reigned back in by the combine.
It's fine that people that want to see the clans as boogeymen, see them as boogeymen. It's also fine to do the opposite. If we take the least charitable approach to faction interpretations, then there's probably nowhere I'd actually want to live in the whole game.
-
Battletech has gone on for so long, under the control of so many authors, with so many conflicting personal takes on things and ideas of how the universe should be, with relatively little factual information about things beyond the warfare side of the universe that different players can look at the same factions and see them two completely different ways without either one being wrong.
Indeed, and "different players" also applies in-universe to different characters and worlds. If the Clans collectively were only an evil Orwellian nightmare state, it's at least questionable that anybody born and raised outside would join one and wholeheartedly serve their Clan. Some Spheroids certainly view the Clanners as bogeymen; Combine denizens in particular seem indoctrinated to hate people who also live in a caste society ruled by a warrior class.
On the other hand seven whole worlds voted to merge with a Clan-ruled state rather than remain an independent Spheroid nation when they could easily have done otherwise, and individuals such as Phelan Kell and Ragnar Magnusson evidently felt that Clan civilization wasn't so evil that they'd sooner die than work within it. At least one ex-Lyran world took to Clan civilization enough that the populace resisted House Steiner when that planet was seized by the LCAF.
We're given information that can make the clans seem worse than the combine or confederation could possibly be to their citizens, and we're also given information that directly contradicts that, like the troubles the combine had with liberated citizens who had grown accustomed to life under the Jaguar and had to be reigned back in by the combine.
Interesting, I'd not heard of this. Do you recall the source? Most novels / sourcebooks make out like living under Jaguar rule is hell on earth for non-warriors.
It's fine that people that want to see the clans as boogeymen, see them as boogeymen. It's also fine to do the opposite. If we take the least charitable approach to faction interpretations, then there's probably nowhere I'd actually want to live in the whole game.
Agreed, or hold a view somewhere between the two extremes. My own AUS$0.02 - Clan culture has some abhorrent traits, some admirable aspects, and others I'm 'meh' about. The same could just as easily be said (with varying degrees of each catergory) about House Davion, House Kurita, the ROTS, or even the RWR and the Blakists.
-
Indeed, and "different players" also applies in-universe to different characters and worlds. If the Clans collectively were only an evil Orwellian nightmare state, it's at least questionable that anybody born and raised outside would join one and wholeheartedly serve their Clan. Some Spheroids certainly view the Clanners as bogeymen; Combine denizens in particular seem indoctrinated to hate people who also live in a caste society ruled by a warrior class.
On the other hand seven whole worlds voted to merge with a Clan-ruled state rather than remain an independent Spheroid nation when they could easily have done otherwise, and individuals such as Phelan Kell and Ragnar Magnusson evidently felt that Clan civilization wasn't so evil that they'd sooner die than work within it.
The FRR is a special circumstance. First of all, the Bears were noted as being especially harsh with the way they treated worlds they'd conquered for the first year of the invasion, on a similar level as the Jaguars. It wasn't until their leadership changed and they decided to adopt their Inner Sphere population into their family that the populations started to come around. By the time the remainder of the FRR voted to join the Dominion, it was no longer a purely Clan entity in terms of governance.
Similarly, Ulric took Phelan and Ragnar as special projects and actively recruited them.
-
Interesting, I'd not heard of this. Do you recall the source? Most novels / sourcebooks make out like living under Jaguar rule is hell on earth for non-warriors.
I will have to go looking for it, but my recollection from past discussions was that it was a combination of (A) the freedom of being in rebellion against the jaguars, and then having to settle down and obey the law once more, and (B) that the Jaguars didn't particularly care about or spend much time thinking about things that did not have to do with War Industry. So if you were some lower caste without aptitudes relevant to them, they didn't pay much attention to your existence.
Not to say it was a picnic, we are talking about rulers who would use atrocity as punishment, but if you lived on some backwater doing something irrelevant to the jaguar, they probably paid a lot less attention to you than the combine did.
And actually, harkening back to my own post...
so many authors, with so many conflicting personal takes
It occurs to me from what I've heard that sometimes the SAME author is portraying two entirely different things. Take Pardoe's writings from a Jaguar perspective 21 years ago, versus their portrayal in Forever Faithful, which I have yet to touch, but I hear is rather out of character for how the jaguars were originally portrayed.
-
The Combine is an extremely rigid and hierarchical society. The government is involved with every aspect of your personal life. I suppose that's okay if you like your role in society. If you never wanted to be anything more than a factory worker, and that's where the Combine assigned you, then you're okay. Your overall standard of living is pretty good (compared to what it could be), and you can take reassurance from all the propaganda posters everywhere telling you that you are an honorable and valued member of Combine society. All in all you're just another brick in the wall, but for a lot of people that's okay. However if you ever wanted to be anything more than that, there aren't a lot of opportunities to do anything else.
The Jaguars, on the other hand, are an invading army who hate the people they've conquered. They don't give one rat's ass about whatever your former social rules were. You're all just a bunch of dirty Inner Sphere Freebirth garbage people. Are they gonna treat you like dirt? Of course they are. But they also don't care about your previous role in society. They don't care if you're a street sweeper or an executive. They'll mistreat you all equally.
-
I will have to go looking for it, but my recollection from past discussions was that it was a combination of (A) the freedom of being in rebellion against the jaguars, and then having to settle down and obey the law once more, and (B) that the Jaguars didn't particularly care about or spend much time thinking about things that did not have to do with War Industry. So if you were some lower caste without aptitudes relevant to them, they didn't pay much attention to your existence.
I could be wrong but what you might actually be remembering is when the Combine created the Irece? prefecture for the Nova Cats after Op:Bulldog.
I seem to recall the shift of some worlds To / From Nova Cat rule was disorientating for the population.
-
No, I'm thinking specifically about difficulties mentioned in reintegrating Jaguar OZ worlds post-bulldog.
-
No, I'm thinking specifically about difficulties mentioned in reintegrating Jaguar OZ worlds post-bulldog.
The issues there were with resistance fighters and geurilla groups. After spending years living outside of society and the law, many of them had issues with reintegrating into the harsh and orderly nature of Combine society.
It was covered on in some books that life in the SJOZ sucked even by Combine standards. The Jags treated their conquered populace terribly, and engaaged in acts of overkill retaliation, such as burning down entire neighbourhoos, for even the slightest infractions.
They disrupted civillian economies and lives without care for the concequences. There was one world (the name escapes me for the moment) where the local population were subject to seasonal outbreaks of a native disease. To fight it, they baked a special type of bread from local ingredients that boosted their resistance to it. The Jags ended production of this bread because it was seen as not being useful to their millitary in any way. This then lead to civillian casualties from the seasonal outbreak
-
The world in question is Nykvarn (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nykvarn (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nykvarn))
The Jaguars shut down bread production and transferred those involved with it to a munitions factory. During the outbreak, the Jaguar commander refused to allow them to make the bread. The result was massive civillian and Smoke Jaguar casualties