Gun Geekery VI: The grandson of Gun Geekery

[Teppudama]

Many years ago I read a sort of review of the model 51, written by an old-timer cop who carried one as a backup/off-duty piece for a few decades.  Dude really sang the praises of it for being easy to operate, reliable, and being a natural point & shoot instinctive aim sort of gun. He compared it pretty favorably to more contemporary designs (for the 90's) like the Bersa Thunder.

I shoot in the American Zoot Shooter Association, which is kind of like Cowboy Action Shooting, but set during Prohibition, so our cut off year for useable firearms designs is 1949.  My main match pistol is a Browning Hi-Power, my main match rifle is a M1 carbine and my main match shotgun is a Ithaca Model 37, but we do have side events for specialized or non-main match firearms.  My pocket pistol event handgun is a Savage Model 1907 in .32acp and my long range event rifle is a M1917 pattern Enfield, sporterized with an optic, in .30-06.  Those are what I use with my "Carbine Kelly" persona, but I am in the process of putting together an "Old Gumshoe" type Detective that I use a S&W Model 10 4" .38, Charter Arms Off-Duty 2" .38 and then the same long guns.  I eventually plan to use a 1911, but am in the middle of restoring the Remington Rand 1911A1 that was handed down to me from my father, so won't use anything until then.  I do have an older Llama 1911 9mm that I use from time to time, but at the moment I prefer my Hi-Powers.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That sounds beyond pimptastic and amazing.  All the pinstriped suits, all the fedoras, and aaaaaallllllllllllll the Thompsons.

[Teppudama]

It is a lot of fun!  I am VP of our local club and I write a majority of the scenarios, so it can be very interesting at times.  The Thompson is literally the most common carbine and the 1911 is the most common pistol, shotguns are pretty wide assortment most of the time.  If you are on a really tight budget and want to play, the easiest way is to pick up a used lever gun in .38/.357, a good Model 10 S&W in .38 special and a cheap double barrel in at least .20g.  Most capers are written with revolvers in mind and provide for reloading time to make them competitive still, lever actions were literally the most common long gun in the armories of law enforcement for the era and a double barrel gives you a chance with some of the actuated targets we use with shotguns that you have to knock something down to launch a clay.  Revolvers were literally 10 to 1 more common then automatics of any caliber, even over 1911s, so it is a more accurate portrayal of gangster or g-man.
Now, if you are like me and want to go a little further afield with your set-ups, you can do interesting things and think outside the box.  I plan to eventually replace the M1 with a Suomi KP31 9mm carbine or a PPsH in 9mm (uses the same mags as the 7.62 model), which means I can use the same ammo that I reload for both my pistol and rifle.  I looked around for a LONG time before finding a deal on a M37 I was comfortable with, and it turned out to be $200 less than I should have paid for it and was made in 1947, so if you are patient and have something to use in the meantime, you can find the deals if you know where to look.  My Browning Hi-Power is actually a Hungarian FEG PJK-9, so a Hungarian manufactured copy of it that is parts compatible with the original, and I picked it up locally with 6 total magazines for under $300.

[ANS Kamas P81]

It'd be darn tempting, but I think I'll have to stick with airsoft.  Attempting to avoid any rule-4 discussion, but the way gun laws are going and mental health being relevant to ownership, I'm not going to be able to continue my enjoyment.  This is just because of a lot of personal issues, but I have been diagnosed severe paranoid with mild delusions as well as PTSD and other issues.  A lot of it's inherited, but it's because of that that I'm getting out of the general hobby and ownership.  Still, the opportunity to strut around in a fancy outfit with a replica Thompson would be fun!

Still quite very interested, and there's always airsoft to play with!  Which brings up a question, should we keep the a/s discussion here or crack open a new thread?  Vwee*PEW*vwee*PEW*vwee*PEW* Airsoft thread or something.

[ColBosch]

the two barrel idea doesn't bother me. it's the double laser sights (a single, either above or below but right between both barrels would be fine) Swapping magazines might be a bit of a pain as well, but hey, it's not a combat rifle and in close quarters I can see it being even a good idea, but those last two pictures make my brain hurt

Their selling point is that two rounds at once is more likely to defeat body armor. That may be, but the BATFE is making very upset noises about the wording of US machine gun law* (which is pretty clear: more than one bullet per trigger pull, it's legally an automatic weapon, with few exceptions). I personally think this is a ludicrous device, a toy solution in search of a real-world problem. If you need more 5.56mm at once, invest in expanded magazines. If you need better penetration, buy a bigger gun. If you want to throw your money away, send it to me and I'll have a pretty girl call you up and compliment your manhood.

[Teppudama]

It'd be darn tempting, but I think I'll have to stick with airsoft.  Attempting to avoid any rule-4 discussion, but the way gun laws are going and mental health being relevant to ownership, I'm not going to be able to continue my enjoyment.  This is just because of a lot of personal issues, but I have been diagnosed severe paranoid with mild delusions as well as PTSD and other issues.  A lot of it's inherited, but it's because of that that I'm getting out of the general hobby and ownership.  Still, the opportunity to strut around in a fancy outfit with a replica Thompson would be fun!

Still quite very interested, and there's always airsoft to play with!  Which brings up a question, should we keep the a/s discussion here or crack open a new thread?  Vwee*PEW*vwee*PEW*vwee*PEW* Airsoft thread or something.

That's funny, because I spent the last 12 years working as an airsoft tech and finally have walked away from the sport and industry because I got tired of the "super egos", wannabe-commandos and just having to deal with twelve year olds that want hundreds of dollars worth of work for twenty bucks.  My last duty assignment in the Army was as a unit armorer, so I have been working on getting back into the firearms industry, making kydex holsters and teaching people concealed carry while also shooting in my little anachronistic competition.  I actually have been working on putting together shooting demonstrations with airsoft guns from the era that we use for Zoot Shooting to encourage people to use them for practice, and I use them in my concealed carry classes as the initial stepping stone for new shooters, to teach good shooting habits and avoid recoil related issues when we get started.
On a side, I have PTSD and actually used airsoft as kind of a therapy, because the "bad guys" always got back up after you shot them and you could joke about shooting each other, which really helped a lot.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Their selling point is that two rounds at once is more likely to defeat body armor. If you need more 5.56mm at once, invest in expanded magazines.

Or triple-aught buckshot.  Seriously, I have to wonder how bad the sights are at anything past pissing range.  Double-rifles, even the multi-dozen-thousand-dollar ones, never regulate perfectly because each barrel is different.  It's possible to get two barrels in one gun to hit the same spot at a particular distance, but not at any distance you could be at.  And that's with a single piece of steel for a top-break double-barrel rifle.  For something built with a semiautomatic action, no axial balance, a gas system, and lots of moving parts?  Yeah not happening.

[Josva Valdreki]

Someone in the last thread said that the T-80 never faced the M1A2. This is irrelevant. The Russians discontinued production of the T-80 because it fared no better in Chechnya (against Chechan rebels) than the T-72 did while costing significantly more. But they wanted to keep that factory open, so they had them tool up for T-72s. And, of course, the M1 and M1A1 and M60 met and defeated the T-72 in the largest armored offensive since OP Zitadelle.

Another someone alluded to the M1911 being superior to the M9. This is true. If you believe the MAD-1R Marauder is also superior to the LMT-2R Lament where the quirks are:

LMT-2R: Easy to Maintain, Protected Actuators, Accurate Weapon, Multi-Trac.
MAD-1R: Ammunition Feed Problem, Difficult to Maintain, Non-Standard Parts, Obsolete/1945, Easy to Pilot, Exposed Actuators, and Poor Targeting (Short, Medium, and Long). (In addition, there are many off-brand MAD-1Rs - we'll call them MAD-3Rs - which solve the Poor Targeting but most of them must take Poor Workmanship in its stead. Most people who claim that the MAD-1R is better than the LMT-2R possess MAD-3Rs and claim that they are "just as good as" the MAD-1Rs. Plus high end custom MAD-1Rs - we'll call them MAD-2Rs - which removes the Poor Targeting and Ammunition Feed Problem quirks and adds the Accurate Weapon quirk. Most people who own MAD-3Rs claim they are every bit as good as MAD-2Rs, too. There is also another new MAD-1R, we'll call it a MAD-4R, that boasts all the benes of the MAD-2R and it drops Non-Standard Parts and Obsolete/1945. But these MAD-4Rs are every bit as expensive as MAD-2Rs - despite being serial production, while each MAD-2R is individually hand built - and are only found in the hands of elite CAAN reconnaissance units.)  :P

(For the record, I have a MAD-2R. I have owned MAD-1Rs and -3Rs. And I love it. But I'm realistic about its capabilities compared to my… I'll call it an LMT-3R, even though it's a completely different weapon system than the LMT-2R from the examples above.)

In any case, if you need better armor penetration than one 5.56 (and two 5.56s that far apart aren't going to gain you anything) you should probably be rocking M995. If that still isn't helping, aim for the head. If that's not an option, load a belt of Raufoss in your friendly, neighborhood M2. This solves most problems.

Alsoalsoalso: I would prefer a new thread for airsoft discussion.

[wasp]

I think that if I won the lottery, I would be looking for 2x semi automatic 1917A4s and 2x m30 trolley mounts for my M3A1 Scout Car and a canvas top for it too.

Wasp

[RebelRunner]

On a side, I have PTSD and actually used airsoft as kind of a therapy, because the "bad guys" always got back up after you shot them and you could joke about shooting each other, which really helped a lot.

I have heard of this before. I see the logic behind it.

As for the Snake, again, if you need "double-tap" to penetrate armor, rifles like the AN-94 provide two-round bursts at 1800rpm that hit, mostly, at the same point.

On the legal side, I personally believe that the regulations you reference could (and should) be rewritten quite easily. Burst-fire rifles should not be in the same category as something like an M240, but we're getting into Rule 4 territory here. I want my M16A411  :D :D

I've actually come across a "double-barreled" M1911 (basically two 1911s welded together). It had two triggers, legalesing its way out of NFA territory. I still don't know why anyone would want one except as a collector's item when you could have a basic 1911, SIG, M&P or what have you for just about half the weight and bulk. For a carry gun, it's hilariously impractical.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I've actually come across a "double-barreled" M1911 (basically two 1911s welded together). It had two triggers, legalesing its way out of NFA territory. I still don't know why anyone would want one except as a collector's item when you could have a basic 1911, SIG, M&P or what have you for just about half the weight and bulk. For a carry gun, it's hilariously impractical.

And it's got to be NFA; pull either trigger and you get both shooting.  The slides are welded together, so if it really IS only firing one shot and you can choose which trigger you want to pull...both slides are still recoiling and both slides are ejecting rounds - one of which might be unfired in that case.

I'm also not convinced that a single .45 ACP has enough energy in it to fully cycle two slides and ****** two hammers back, unless they lightened those things severely.  As in, titanium alloys with lightening cuts and whatnot all through the things...I dunno, I just.  It's a joke of a gun IMO.

[Taurevanime]

Someone in the last thread said that the T-80 never faced the M1A2. This is irrelevant.[/i].

This wasn't to say that it is true. It was to say that this is the argument used to indicate that the T-80 is superior to the Abrams or any other modern Western tank.

[ColBosch]

This wasn't to say that it is true. It was to say that this is the argument used to indicate that the T-80 is superior to the Abrams or any other modern Western tank.

I was talking about the tendency for people to over-estimate the capabilities of stuff they personally like over cold, hard fact.

[mathesont]

I have fondled the double tacticool weapons at shows and to me they are just gimmicks.  Does not mean they would not sell, just not to me.  Only doubles I want are English and made before WW2

[CrossfirePilot]

I have fondled the double tacticool weapons at shows and to me they are just gimmicks.  Does not mean they would not sell, just not to me.  Only doubles I want are English and made before WW2

Do they begin with an H?

[CrossfirePilot]

I think in the last incarnation of this thread someone was talking about getting a Henry in .44.  Did they ever get it?  how does it shoot?  Thinking about a job in ID, and wife has a phobia of lions and bears.  So thinking a .44 carbine might suit her well...

[chanman]

The thing that bugs me about comparing M1s or T-72s is that it's like comparing Spitfires. There are so many models over 3 and a half two four decades of production. So some late 80's early 90's M1A1s ran roughshod over a bunch of 80's vintage export model T-72s. That doesn't tell us how a 1980 M1 fares against say one of the bajillion new T-72 developments created in the last decade, for example or the differences between an M1HA and an M1 IP (by the way, for an idea of just how many T-72 variants there are, check out the unit listings for the Warsaw Pact in Wargame AirLand Battle).

I'd point out that Poland continues to develop and export their T-72 variants despite the availability of Cold War surplus M1s and Leo 2s

[Josva Valdreki]

I think in the last incarnation of this thread someone was talking about getting a Henry in .44.  Did they ever get it?  how does it shoot?  Thinking about a job in ID, and wife has a phobia of lions and bears.  So thinking a .44 carbine might suit her well...

Henrys are heavy. I would recommend a Winchester 1892 in 44 Mag (or reproduction thereof) or a Ruger M77/44. If you must have a 44. As far as bears and lions are concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Probably going to be sooner attacked by a rabid dog.

The thing that bugs me about comparing M1s or T-72s is that it's like comparing Spitfires. There are so many models over 3 and a half two four decades of production. So some late 80's early 90's M1A1s ran roughshod over a bunch of 80's vintage export model T-72s. That doesn't tell us how a 1980 M1 fares against say one of the bajillion new T-72 developments created in the last decade, for example or the differences between an M1HA and an M1 IP (by the way, for an idea of just how many T-72 variants there are, check out the unit listings for the Warsaw Pact in Wargame AirLand Battle).

I'd point out that Poland continues to develop and export their T-72 variants despite the availability of Cold War surplus M1s and Leo 2s

And the Poles have an enormous Not Invented Here/Not Made Here complex. Their SOF, for instance, use HK416s. HK416s that are getting old. Very old. In need of replacement pretty badly old. But the Polish government doesn't want to replace them, because that would cost money... money going to Oberndorf, not to Radom. They would rather keep the plants turning out T-72s open than supplant them with surplus Leopard 2s.

In any case, the M1 has done better in counter-insurgency and it has fared well against the T-72, while the T-72 has not fared as well in counter-insurgency and has only done well against other T-72s, lightly armored vehicles, and older, obsolescent tanks.

[mathesont]

Do they begin with an H?

Yes, but not the H you are probably thinking of.  I am crazy for Alexander Henry.  Have three and would like a couple more.  Others I would jump at would be Jeffery, Purdey and Richards.

I think in the last incarnation of this thread someone was talking about getting a Henry in .44.  Did they ever get it?  how does it shoot?  Thinking about a job in ID, and wife has a phobia of lions and bears.  So thinking a .44 carbine might suit her well...

Get something she enjoys shooting and feels will protect her, odds are extremely unlikely the rifle will ever be used for the intended purpose.  If it were me I would probably look for a used Mini-30 or Winchester .30-30.

[Øystein]

And the Poles have an enormous Not Invented Here/Not Made Here complex. Their SOF, for instance, use HK416s. HK416s that are getting old. Very old. In need of replacement pretty badly old. But the Polish government doesn't want to replace them, because that would cost money... money going to Oberndorf, not to Radom. They would rather keep the plants turning out T-72s open than supplant them with surplus Leopard 2s.

Uhm, the HK416s are less than six years old, the poles aquired them in 2008. I wouldn't call that "very old".

Øystein

[Taurevanime]

Not to mention the Poles started their own new rifle programme that is currently in the works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSBS_Radon

[CrossfirePilot]

Henrys are heavy. I would recommend a Winchester 1892 in 44 Mag (or reproduction thereof) or a Ruger M77/44. If you must have a 44. As far as bears and lions are concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Probably going to be sooner attacked by a rabid dog.

Get something she enjoys shooting and feels will protect her, odds are extremely unlikely the rifle will ever be used for the intended purpose.  If it were me I would probably look for a used Mini-30 or Winchester .30-30.

I actually have more concern for 2 legged predators than 4, but that isn't something to counter an argument with.  A few years ago Ruger made a semi auto 44 carbine.  If possible that i think might be the ticket, if not then a mini 30 should work as well.

[StCptMara]

Thought I would pass this on to all the BattleTech forums gun geeks:

Not sure on how reliable, but an ammo recall of an extremely hard to get (.22 LR) round is important
enough to share:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/chris-dumm/winchester-pulls-major-derp-recalls-lots-22-long-rifle-ammo/

[HikageMaru]

Thought I would pass this on to all the BattleTech forums gun geeks:

Not sure on how reliable, but an ammo recall of an extremely hard to get (.22 LR) round is important
enough to share:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/chris-dumm/winchester-pulls-major-derp-recalls-lots-22-long-rifle-ammo/

Wait... people can actually find .22LR???

[ShadowRaven]

wait, people have trouble finding .22LR?

[StCptMara]

wait, people have trouble finding .22LR?

If you are in the U.S., Homeland Security has been buying them all up...

[ShadowRaven]

oh gee, that sucks.

[mathesont]

Didn't know my name was Homeland Security.  Bought 10,000 rounds of .22LR last week, 9 for me and 1 for the local scout troop.  Of course, the deal was two months in the making.

[Falchion]

Well, they really did it.

[ColBosch]

Makes sense to me. The SCAR series lacks a buffer tube and only needs a few inches behind the magazine. The charging handle really isn't that big a deal, and anyway there are already modifications that make it non-reciprocating. Using the Mk 17 as a base would result in a lot of firepower in a very compact package.

I approve. O0