Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth

[I am Belch II]

The huge funnel on the Lexington always catches my eye.

[Kidd]

The Block II+ ER version of Harpoon was specifically developed to allow the same range envelope (250 km unclassified), but does so at the cost of a lighter warhead - 70% the size of that of a RBS-15 MkIII. In addition - unlike RBS-15 - Harpoon in all land-attack variants, including SLAM, is somewhat unsuitable to high-intensity symmetric electronic warfare scenarios - something that Saab does point out while not pointing fingers at the "some competitors" they mention.

Boeing primarily tries to sell the new Harpoon on a cost advantage over its competitors due to being able to refurbish 30-year-old Block 1C for the upgrade while leveraging hardware borrowed from JDAM and SLAM.

Indeed. It makes little sense to me really.

So we might see the new Finnish corvettes with Aster-15 and RBS-15 instead. Though it depends... recently they have been preferring cheaper American hardware over more capable and expensive European options.

[Nightlord01]

Indeed. It makes little sense to me really.

So we might see the new Finnish corvettes with Aster-15 and RBS-15 instead. Though it depends... recently they have been preferring cheaper American hardware over more capable and expensive European options.

Not just cheaper, the logistical train that goes behind it and availability of spare parts is vital. Our Anzac class was built with certain bits of equipment that became obsolete before we had even completed class construction. This made procuring spares quite challenging, slow and expensive. Going with a US baseline means that the systems will remain in production well after production is complete. Our FFG's can still find parts for US built equipment, although spares are drying up. No big surprise as production was completed more than 20 years ago.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Logistics and production, the choke-chain around the throat of every military ever.

Still gonna say, Hamina Hamina Hamina that's one good looking ship.  >:D

[Weirdo]

Anyone got any color 'after' photos of the Operation Crossroads ships? I've got a starship mini that's poorly cast on one side, want to compensate by painting it as if that side recently took a proximity nuke, and was hoping there was some reference shots out there that shows how hull metal might discolor to after such a shot, aside from Big-Bada-Boom Black.

And because this is a picture thread, have a BB:

[HobbesHurlbut]

That's not easy, but for your ship, a physical contact would cause a lot of scorching and very intense radiation and thermal damage.

[Weirdo]

So mostly Big-Badda-Boom Black, maybe some Get-That-Thermal-Energy-off-My-Ship Red on spots nearest the blast, and some random tints of Hard-Rads-Turned-the-Paint-into-What-Color around the fringes?

[glitterboy2098]

found these:

[HobbesHurlbut]

still black and white. not colorized.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

I don't think Crossroads images would be good references for a starship mini.  A nuclear blast in an atmosphere has different effects from one in space.

[hoosierhick]

There's a couple color pics of the Prinz Eugen after a bomb test here: https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/uss-prinz-eugen/  I'll see if I can dig up any more.

[Wrangler]

USS Norfolk DL-1.
I always thought this ship was weird unique in the post-WW2 generation of Warships before the missile age started.

Known as a Destroyer Leader, she was built on a  5,600 tons Light Cruiser hull. She was originally designated as a "Hunter-killer cruiser". She built like a Light Cruiser, with greater sonar sensor capacity than Destroyer of the time when it was launched in 1951.

She was unique with her armaments, her main guns was her eight 3"/70 caliber guns in four turrets.  She would later get ASROC launcher.



She one of a kind, with Mitcher-Class that followed, but they were lighter which evolved eventually into the Forrest Sherman class.

[DoctorMonkey]

The RN had a lot of Destroyer Leaders, they were bigger to have space for a flotilla command staff aboard.
In WW1 the job was done by a light cruiser but in the inter-war period the RN developed the dedicated Destroyer Leaders with generally one per tranche of 8 or so destroyers.


The 3" gun was the smallest calibre for a VT fuzed shell I think so that would have been an impressive AA armament but I'm not sure what it would have done to surface craft of the era apart from irritate them.

[Weirdo]

I don't think Crossroads images would be good references for a starship mini.  A nuclear blast in an atmosphere has different effects from one in space.

If you've got pictures of metal damaged by a space blast, I'll certainly take those too. :)

There's a couple color pics of the Prinz Eugen after a bomb test here: https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/uss-prinz-eugen/  I'll see if I can dig up any more.

Okay, THAT'S some cool reading. Really interesting to see which pieces of gear the USN was interested in, and of course it always amazes me to see just how little raw damage that ship took from being nuked TWICE.

Given that the side of the mini in question is kinda...melty...I probably need to search for a report detailing whatever ship was closest to the Able blast.

[JadeHellbringer]

Weeeellllll... that gets tricky. Your target ship was USS Nevada (painted shock-orange specifically so she'd be an easy aiming point), and she DID survive, but even then she was in remarkably good shape, all things considered.

[hoosierhick]

If you've got pictures of metal damaged by a space blast, I'll certainly take those too. :)

The only space blast I can think of was STARFISH PRIME.  I kind of doubt they got anything back from that.   ;)

Okay, THAT'S some cool reading. Really interesting to see which pieces of gear the USN was interested in, and of course it always amazes me to see just how little raw damage that ship took from being nuked TWICE.

Given that the side of the mini in question is kinda...melty...I probably need to search for a report detailing whatever ship was closest to the Able blast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Gilliam_(APA-57)

Be careful...that ww2 after ww2 site is a HUGE time sink...

[ANS Kamas P81]

The paint would be pretty much burned, so wherever you get actual paint on the hull it'd be blackened and powdered.  Otherwise, bare metal would do the shadow treatment, where you'd be painting in the shadow of missing antennae and components, really...

[worktroll]

Little-known picture of part of Weirdo's man-cave ...

[Weirdo]

Little-known picture of part of Weirdo's man-cave ...

[I am Belch II]

They probaly would just throw all those away when they were done.

[Wrangler]

I was wondering what could have become of them. I doubt they would been used for gaming.  I hope some of them survived.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I was wondering what could have become of them. I doubt they would been used for gaming.  I hope some of them survived.

That's how we got wargaming from.

The Imperial German Army for example used wargames to condition their officers so they know what to do when "surprised" or facing an unexpected situation. They did find this helped the officers to adapt to unknown factors on the battlefield better.

[Kidd]

I was wondering what could have become of them. I doubt they would been used for gaming.  I hope some of them survived.

Presented to various captains, admirals, museums perhaps?

[Weirdo]

That's how we got wargaming from.

The Imperial German Army for example used wargames to condition their officers so they know what to do when "surprised" or facing an unexpected situation. They did find this helped the officers to adapt to unknown factors on the battlefield better.

I imagine having to deal with Hellbie Dice® in training helps beat into your head the old saying about plans versus enemy contact....and also to teach you that the term 'enemy' doesn't just mean the guys pointing guns at you - the universe itself can be your enemy any time it chooses.

[Kidd]

I imagine having to deal with Hellbie Dice® in training helps beat into your head the old saying about plans versus enemy contact....and also to teach you that the term 'enemy' doesn't just mean the guys pointing guns at you - the universe itself can be your enemy any time it chooses.

So... Hellbie dice are the Kobayashi Maru of Battletech?

[I am Belch II]

I imagine having to deal with Hellbie Dice® in training helps beat into your head the old saying about plans versus enemy contact....and also to teach you that the term 'enemy' doesn't just mean the guys pointing guns at you - the universe itself can be your enemy any time it chooses.

There is even a couple of shots in the movie "Longest Day" where they are talking wargames and pushing flags on a table. Pretty neat.

[marauder648]

Although in some parts the Longest Day has aged poorly (John Wayne playing John Wayne playing John Wayne) its still an amazing movie with a lot of footage that simply can't be done today because the aircraft or ships don't exist.  The shore bombardment used a mixture of RN and USN ships on gunnery training as well as some stock footage from WW2 and no CGI work, no matter how good will ever be as good as the real thing.

[Nightlord01]

That's how we got wargaming from.

The Imperial German Army for example used wargames to condition their officers so they know what to do when "surprised" or facing an unexpected situation. They did find this helped the officers to adapt to unknown factors on the battlefield better.

Uhh, military war gaming and just about every type of commercial war gaming are vastly different beasts, even if commercial war gaming did descend from military.

Military war gaming is running through a scenario, where both sides effectively draw up their plans and execute them throughout the simulating battle space. They don't roll dice, they don't measure distances and you don't change your plan during the run through, ever. This doctrine is still in use be just about every professional military today, it's a way of proofing plans with everything that's known, without getting bogged down in details or wasting resources on actually running a field exercise.

[ColBosch]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for a reference here, Nightlord. I am aware that sort of exercise is sometimes used in operational planning (though distances sure as hell are measured, to be sure that they're not planning on infantry moving a hundred miles a day or something) but it is not what the military typically calls a wargame. Kriegspiel - the early German military wargames - definitely included random luck, and sometimes even capricious referees. Part of the point of a wargame is to introduce potential problems to make sure that leaders can adapt their plans to a changing battlefield.

While on field maneuvers in the Army, I saw this in action. We were practicing pillbox assaults, so the sergeant in charge directed two squads to lay suppressive fire while a third flanked and hit the weak points with grenades (all simulated, of course). This went fine for the first couple platoons to run through the exercise, but come the third, the company CO stepped up to the sergeant and told him, "okay, when your flanking squad moved into position, the bunker called mortar fire on itself. Your men are down, what do you do?" So actual battle drill practice was interrupted and the troop ended up gaming out a full battle as we went after the "mortars," evacuated our casualties, eliminated the bunker, and drove on. At least while I was in the service, this sort of thing was very common.

[marauder648]

The IJN made use of wargames which featured dice rolls as they prepared the Midway Operation.  The book Shattered Sword very specifically states that during one of the Wargames a dice roll was used to indicate the number of hits on friendly forces.  When they rolled high, the umpire said it was impossible and dialed the number of hits back.