Author Topic: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?  (Read 39729 times)

target_destroyed

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #60 on: 04 February 2011, 17:50:48 »
I'm actually thinking of making a house rule that forces victims of a hatchet attack to roll a PSR when struck. I think it's sort of logical that the extra weight connecting w/ the target (vs. a punch) might cause the target to stumble or fall.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #61 on: 04 February 2011, 17:57:00 »
Those hatchet are cool anyway and since Battletech is a game then go for it my friends !!! Logical thing are not always the best...  ;D

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #62 on: 04 February 2011, 18:13:29 »
Somewhere, WolfReaper has turned his head to glare at the nearest network connection.
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garhkal

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #63 on: 05 February 2011, 05:45:21 »
I'm actually thinking of making a house rule that forces victims of a hatchet attack to roll a PSR when struck. I think it's sort of logical that the extra weight connecting w/ the target (vs. a punch) might cause the target to stumble or fall.

Like with kicks or charges.
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target_destroyed

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #64 on: 05 February 2011, 09:13:50 »
Like with kicks or charges.
Yes, but better because you wouldn't risk damaging yourself or having to make a PSR if you miss.  ;) There's gotta be some incentive to use up tonnage on a hatchet imo.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #65 on: 05 February 2011, 11:22:34 »
Like with kicks or charges.

Or pushes! Everyone forgets the pushes....

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monbvol

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #66 on: 05 February 2011, 11:30:46 »
I don't.

A while back I did some testing in MegaMek of two mechs.  One with nothing but a Hatchet and built in physical attacks as a means to do damage.  The other identical in every way except it had 7 tons of Machine Guns and ammo spread out so that alpha striking would remove any physical attacks.  The only times the Hatchet wielding mech actually won were when it ignored the Hatchet and used the built in physical attacks.  I remember once a test put them on a hill and the Hatchet mech pushed the other off a 3 level drop and won.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #67 on: 05 February 2011, 22:21:40 »
Or pushes! Everyone forgets the pushes....

I have won a game with a FAILED charge, thanks to the "Oh..you failed the charge? OK, you move into your opponents hex, and they move
into an adjacent hex"...Never, ever let yourself be charged when you are in a hex where the only place to move...is off the board.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #68 on: 06 February 2011, 19:35:12 »
I much prefer a heavy mech with TSM if you want head capping fun.  Though don't get me wrong...I've found the hatchet useful on occasion.  Getting a kick up on the torsos can be very effective (most hits happen there after all).  I'm not a big fan of spending the tonnage for it though. 

garhkal

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #69 on: 06 February 2011, 21:25:04 »
The only way you can do that is be higher.. and that is from my experience rare to get.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #70 on: 06 February 2011, 23:42:44 »
A while back I did some testing in MegaMek of two mechs.  One with nothing but a Hatchet and built in physical attacks as a means to do damage.  The other identical in every way except it had 7 tons of Machine Guns and ammo spread out so that alpha striking would remove any physical attacks.  The only times the Hatchet wielding mech actually won were when it ignored the Hatchet and used the built in physical attacks.  I remember once a test put them on a hill and the Hatchet mech pushed the other off a 3 level drop and won.
What did this test prove?

I have won a game with a FAILED charge, thanks to the "Oh..you failed the charge? OK, you move into your opponents hex, and they move
into an adjacent hex"...Never, ever let yourself be charged when you are in a hex where the only place to move...is off the board.
I thought failed charges don't displace the target at all?  Also, if you were playing the edges of the map as boundaries, wouldn't there be no displacement in the first place seeing as the hexes aren't valid for play?

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #71 on: 07 February 2011, 00:56:21 »
I wish I still had the logs to back it up but I do remember the outcome fairly well.  The testing pretty well proved that most dedicated melee weapons are useless without house ruling.  The built in physical attacks are just that much better.

I'll take my chances with a PSR on a missed kick for concentrating the damage to two locations and often times without trying as hard as you might think one location.

No other attack is that good at concentrating damage.

Not even targeting computers are that good.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #72 on: 07 February 2011, 05:41:44 »
Physical attacks are terrific, generate no heat and potentially lots of damage, what's not to like?
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #73 on: 07 February 2011, 10:21:14 »
I wish I still had the logs to back it up but I do remember the outcome fairly well.  The testing pretty well proved that most dedicated melee weapons are useless without house ruling.  The built in physical attacks are just that much better.
I'm afraid I fail to see how your test was connected to the effectiveness of physical weapons at all.  Would you care to state your hypothesis going into the test, and how your hypothesis affect the way you set up said experiment?

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #74 on: 07 February 2011, 10:45:43 »
^I believe he was attempting to make the point that investing tonnage in physical weapons is a waste compared to massed low-tonnage weapons such as MGs which do the same thing for (likely) more damage. The problem with this is that he is assuming that a comparison of two otherwise defenseless mechs with no supplementing weapons, no context, and no lancemates allows for a good comparison. It's a fallacy of logic, but I understand what he thinks he's proving and why.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #75 on: 07 February 2011, 11:58:16 »
Actually it is better to remove variables to test something on it's own merits and not the merits of an outside variable.  By introducing other equipment and lance mates you add in outside variables that will do nothing to quantify the actual usefulness of the Hatchet on it's own merits.

I even went so far as to dump the ammo on the Machine Gun mech just to compare the built in physical attacks versus hatchet physical attacks.

Like I said I wish I still had the logs so I could prove more hyperbole at this point.


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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #76 on: 07 February 2011, 12:09:08 »
Actually it is better to remove variables to test something on it's own merits and not the merits of an outside variable.  By introducing other equipment and lance mates you add in outside variables that will do nothing to quantify the actual usefulness of the Hatchet on it's own merits.

I even went so far as to dump the ammo on the Machine Gun mech just to compare the built in physical attacks versus hatchet physical attacks.

Like I said I wish I still had the logs so I could prove more hyperbole at this point.

Well the problemw ith that is that you aren't comparing the utility of a Hatchet versus the utility of massed-MGs. You're comparing the utility of a mech with ONLY a hatchet versus a mech with ONLY MGs. It's an enormous difference. The MG mech will win nearly every time, as it can entirely dictate range. A hatchet, however, is almost never used purely on its own. It's a weapon designed to provide heat-free damage in the event the mech is able to close range. And if it's not? It has other weapons to deal damage at range.

In an actual match, there will almost always be lancemates, other weapons, terrain considerations,etc. All your experiment was able to prove is that in that very specific, very unlikely combat situation the Hatchet is a bad design choice. Saying that considerations such as other equipment, lancmates, etc muddy any discussion of which is the better design choice is the equivalent saying a mech with only a C3 master facing a mech with an equal tonnage of Medium lasers proves that the C3 Master is a waste of tonnage.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #77 on: 07 February 2011, 12:24:58 »
Plus the experiment says a lot more about the MegaMech bot than the hatchet itself.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #78 on: 07 February 2011, 13:24:22 »
Well the problemw ith that is that you aren't comparing the utility of a Hatchet versus the utility of massed-MGs. You're comparing the utility of a mech with ONLY a hatchet versus a mech with ONLY MGs. It's an enormous difference. The MG mech will win nearly every time, as it can entirely dictate range. A hatchet, however, is almost never used purely on its own. It's a weapon designed to provide heat-free damage in the event the mech is able to close range. And if it's not? It has other weapons to deal damage at range.

In an actual match, there will almost always be lancemates, other weapons, terrain considerations,etc. All your experiment was able to prove is that in that very specific, very unlikely combat situation the Hatchet is a bad design choice. Saying that considerations such as other equipment, lancmates, etc muddy any discussion of which is the better design choice is the equivalent saying a mech with only a C3 master facing a mech with an equal tonnage of Medium lasers proves that the C3 Master is a waste of tonnage.

It seems you missed the part where I specifically said I dumped the ammo so that both would have nothing but physical attacks to rely upon.  Yes early in the testing I didn't do that but I realized that contaminated the results and corrected it.  I chose the Machine Guns specifically because they were only really useful at ranges where the Hatchet would have good odds of coming into play.  I noticed the enormous difference in output of damage.  I felt it was unfair even though it did pretty well prove the tonnage spent on a dedicated melee weapon often could be spent elsewhere for a much better gain.

Adding lance mates for the Hatchet wielding mech will actually say nothing about the value of the Hatchet and more about the value of having lance mates.  Everything is better with lance mates.  As such it is irrelevant and misleading to include lance mates when attempting to determine the value of a particular piece of equipment when comparing it to another that does the same function, in this case deal damage to an opponent at point blank range.  When doing statistical analysis it is better to eliminate variables than to increase them.

Yes I could have done better by mounting seven medium lasers in one arm(or any other combo of 7 tons and 7 criticals of worthless gear) and just not use them so that there could be no question at all of critical hit absorption being in favor of the Machine Gun mech but since it never once came down to that in the testing I did it doesn't seem to have really mattered.

Also comparing C3 Master to 5 x Medium Lasers?  So doesn't work because the jobs they are meant to do are not at all the same.  Not even close to what I did.

Plus who says I used the Megamek bot?  I never said one way or another.  Though since it has come up I fought a person.  One every bit as good as I am(past combats with this person have born this out).  I even traded mechs with them every few fights so that there could be no question of favoritism in the testing.  All maps were randomly determined.  Even though the BV was technically not even the odds actually were.

Both mechs had the same armor, engine, gyro, and torso mounted cockpits.

I was very thorough in trying to determine the value of the Hatchet not the Hatchet and other equipment.

But since I seem to have such a poor methodology tell me how you would approach the matter.  Remember my goal was to determine the value of the Hatchet not to prove the value of having lance mates or the value of any other piece of equipment.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #79 on: 07 February 2011, 13:49:29 »
You're missing the point. You just yourself admitted to dumping the ammunition in favor of testing the native physical attacks versus melee weapons. No one's argued so far, at least not to any extent, that given the effectiveness of native physical attacks, hatchets are worthless. But are we trying to determine whether or not hatchets are better than standard physical attacks, or whether they're better than massed smaller weapons? The difference changes the argument completely.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #80 on: 07 February 2011, 13:51:08 »
You seem to be doing a very poor job of explaining: 1) what you were doing 2) why you were doing it 3) how you were doing it. This appears to have lead to a lot of confusion. Perhaps a restatement of your plan, the methodology and then the results would bring about more constructive feedback.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #81 on: 07 February 2011, 14:40:01 »
Okay fair enough that I wasn't clear enough on the following points:

Without house rules most dedicated melee weapons are better replaced with additional speed, armor, weapons, or heat dissipation as tonnage allows.

Built in or native physical attacks are so much better even in the face of a possible PSR that something does need to be done to probably both the built in or native attacks and the dedicated melee weapons to make them useful without being over powering.

The testing I did a while back was to try and get some sense of what the Hatchet does bring to the table in the face of the randomness of 2d6.  I already have a sense of what the other weapons, equipment and lance mates do.  So I decided to do some statistical analysis on the Hatchet and only the Hatchet.  I know my early methodology was a bit skewered but by comparing it to just the native attacks I felt it gave a better indication of what it brings to the table.  I think about these sorts of things a lot and I do want to help the Hatchet, and by extension the Sword and the Retractable Blade but I haven't come up with anything solid yet.

The weapons I find useful:

Talons.  These may actually be broken in terms of raw game mechanics for how much sheer usefulness they poses.
The Vibroblades.  These are tolerable simply because they do give lighter mechs a way to hit in physical combat above their tonnage without TSM.  What can I say most mechs that would benefit from a Vibroblade would also benefit from MASC more then they would TSM and since TSM and MASC are not compatible as a designer I'd rather go for the system that does more for me.
Claws.  Only because they are less accurate than even base punches but the increased damage is nice.
The Lance.  Hatchet damage with Hatchet weight with a chance to do a critical with an acceptable probability to break off inside the enemy mech.  It is the bottom of the list but hey it offers something I can't get from the others or the built in attacks.

They all manage to do something worth while for their tonnage and critical investment.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #82 on: 07 February 2011, 14:45:19 »
^Okay, in the case of a comparison to utility versus native physical attacks, I think we're in agreement. Hatchets aren't worthless, but they're worthless so long as Punches and Kicks are so frickin' good. The other weapons, as you listed, are all good because they either supplement existing attacks (Talons, Claws), or do something that native attacks cannot (tonnage-less damage for VBs, and crits for Lances). As it stands, Hatchets are better than kicks and punches, but only just. And even then it's really a matter of opinion. There's nothing purposeful that a hatchet can do better than a punch or a kick that will leave you not missing the extra MLs, SRMs, etc that you could have invested the tonnage in.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #83 on: 07 February 2011, 15:13:07 »
Really skillful pilots can effectively chose the kick or punch chart if they can overcome the TH penalty by swinging high or low.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #84 on: 07 February 2011, 16:24:52 »
Really skillful pilots can effectively chose the kick or punch chart if they can overcome the TH penalty by swinging high or low.

Assuming that they are that skillful, and assuming that the TH is relatively low to begin with, and assuming a kick won't already do the job (low) or that you're not better off gaining twice as many chances to hit the desired location (high). It can have a niche positive effect, but it's really never going to be worth the tonnage. Awesome? Yes. Super awesome? Yes. Efficient? Never.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #85 on: 08 February 2011, 01:03:33 »
One benefit of the hatchet and sword: it strikes in the arm arc.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #86 on: 08 February 2011, 01:17:04 »
I love hatchets and other physical attack weapons just for the coolness factor.  As long as I can play them I don't care.

For the sake of gameplay, however, they could use a boost in effectiveness.  I always felt that physical attacks should have some kind of critical bonus or at least force a PSR on impact.  It'll be like making a Kick only you don't fall.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #87 on: 08 February 2011, 03:01:19 »
One benefit of the hatchet and sword: it strikes in the arm arc.

Another is better vertical reach. And yet another is the ability to TAC and (compared to kicks) Headcap.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #88 on: 08 February 2011, 03:10:10 »
Another is better vertical reach. And yet another is the ability to TAC and (compared to kicks) Headcap.

The Arm Arc aspect has come into play many a time when I have run a hatchet mech.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #89 on: 08 February 2011, 04:11:35 »
Same here.  Heck one of the few times i LOST a mech to a hatchet, it was cause i got into its rear arc thinking it would hatchet the guy in front..  NO he torso twisted to get his hatchet on me...  CT poss crit with 3 crits jammy bugger..
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