Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second

[Daryk]

Now you're sounding like a proper Minister of Defense...  ^-^

[ANS Kamas P81]

Still focusing on wheeled vehicles over tracks, just as a quirk for Sere-Slav's army.  Can't get away from tracks completely, see the 2S1 and PT-91, but anywhere I can I'm taking the opportunity to go wheeled.  BRDMs galore; the ATGM version and SAM version are pretty significant to the military.  I don't have many regular BRDMs...though I suppose there's a bunch in the Border Guards; maybe they got BRDM-1s instead.  I like the shape of that oddball.

[Daryk]

Wheels are easier on your civilian infrastructure... nothing wrong with that decision... :)

[Failure16]

If you have to have BRDMs, try to get the types that the Poles or even Ukranians modified. They have side hatches and other incidentals that will make your crews' lives easier--and longer.

Hell, I believe even the Poles eventually dropped their Malyutkas in favor of ATGM-armed HMWWVs (no confirmation of that on my part, though). I am pretty sure the Syrians stopped using theirs before the unpleasantness there; since they were rarely seen during the civil war, they had to have been chopped up or someone would have brought them back out instead of a Toyota. But, mechanically, they are reliable, even if dealing with the rear-mounted transmission is a pain the...rear.

[Daryk]

Well played...  8)

[Failure16]

Cheers,

Read through this article, Kamas. Mainly for the fundamental truth behind the basic drive: the AFVs countries decide to give away are often in dire need of overhaul (and, therefore, cash). The rest of the article is stuff we have all heard about and discussed here and elsewhere:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-is-already-sending-one-armored-oddity-to-ukraine-now-it-might-send-a-slightly-odder-one/ar-AA18xwVt?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=cb44e150df494de78b307e7474d96abc&ei=38

[glitterboy2098]

the AMX-10RC certainly seems like a good choice for a light-tank-analog if you want to stick mainly to wheeled vehicles. even if it isn't being classed as a tank by the builders.

[Failure16]

At present, it looks like we are almost back to where we started: Cold Warish kit with post-GWoT attitudes. Not a complaint, by the way.

[PsihoKekec]

Perhaps you have some Fagot launchers remaining from the Cold War and can modify Malyutka carriers to carry them, Slovenia did this with their BOV-3, considerable improvement over Malyutka.

[chanman]

The BMP-2 is generally regarded as a straight upgrade on the BMP-1. If your country is too pressed for funds to buy new/used BMP-2s, then there's also the option of doing the upgrade yourself by hook or by crook. The Type 86A is kind of a BMP-2 by way of BMP-1 and available from 2000, generally a time when kit from China was both cheap and available without many questions.

If you're feeling feisty, then something like the Bulgarian BMP-23 (or literally Bulgarian BMP-23s) add a bit of flair.

[Failure16]

Props for knowing about an IFV converted from a SPG. Might be a first?

[chanman]

Props for knowing about an IFV converted from a SPG. Might be a first?

Directly, sure. But the 2S1's chassis is based on the MT-LBu, which in turn is an enlarged utility/logistics MT-LB, so in the end, it all comes back to the MT-LB (which seems in turn to have some relation to the PT-76, bringing everything back to the light tank :P)

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, I read about the Polish modified BRDMs with the extra wheels removed for more room in the vehicle and the side hatches in their place.  Certainly a thing I'd want to go with, especially since it seems like the kind of modification that I could perform with Serednya Slaviya's own industry, as limited as that is.  According to Wikipedia's sources they're still operating around a hundred Malyutka and Kornet ATGM carriers, but I wouldn't be surprised if that number has dropped in favor of HMMWV/TOW vehicles.

Read the article, and yeah...digging free stuff out of the boneyard means you're going to be paying hard to restore it to service.  That's just things being donated for free, though; stuff being purchased I would imagine is in better condition.  That's why I'm limiting my western equipment to the Heavy Brigade, I'm paying market price for working hardware so I'm only affording small chunk purchases.

And yeah, it does kind of circle around - there's at least some western equipment, but the majority is Cold War leftovers.  It's not quite the western european military I'd originally had in mind, but it's mine and it mostly comes together reasonably I think.

As far as the Malyutkas go, I can always switch that to Konkurs missiles; the Poles still operate 18 vehicles with Konkurs/Spandrel missile systems along with 100 Malyutka carriers.  I imagine they're the later Malyutkas, with SACLOS guidance and improved warheads.

BMPs are pretty scarce in the army; I'm using BTR-80s exclusively for troop transports.  The only place the BMP shows up is in the recon role, and all of eight of them between both Light Brigade recon companies.   I may scrap the BMP entirely, and go with eight extra PT-91s and twenty BRDM-2s in the 2+4+4+4T organization, copying the western armor platoon somewhat.

That said, BMP-23 intrigues me; a roomier BMP with 9 man squads is tempting.  I'd probably keep my mechanized infantry squads the same, and just have the extra room for crew compfort.  Bulgaria never exported it, but I could see Sere-Slav copying the design - after all, we use a battaltion of 2S1 artillery units in the Heavy Brigade, so copying the Bulgarian BMP-23 wouldn't be impossible.  The question comes down to whether or not to use a tracked vehicle in the wheel-happy Sere-Slav military...no, I think I'll stick with the PT-91/BRDM-2 recon companies and BTR-80 mech-inf companies instead.

That brings me to a total of 57 tanks, 42 across the three tank companies, 3 at battalion level, and 12 more across the three recon companies.  BTRs I'd have to add up, but I'm looking at 14-vehicle companies...that's 28 plus 11 more for ambulances and maintenance APCs, so 39 per battalion.  That's at least 117 BTR-80s in the army, with probably a few more I'm missing - I imagine the MP battalion would have a few, but I'm not sure what that battalion looks like.

The PT-76 is a neat little light tank, though it's certainly undergunned in the modern era.  And it did get used as the basis of a number of vehicles, including the infamous Shilka.

[Daryk]

That's an interesting idea that leads to more in the future...  ^-^

[DOC_Agren]

So what can u build in house?

[ANS Kamas P81]

That's an interesting idea that leads to more in the future...  ^-^

Which idea, the BMP-23?  I'm still thinking about using it for a personnel transport, just using the same seven-man squads as the BTR-80s use and using the roominess to carry extra goods.  Unfortunatly GHQ doesn't have a miniature for that, so maybe I'll stick to BMP-2s instead.

Hm, the Polish BRDM-2s with the belly wheels removed has room for two dismounts.  That's a scout pair carrier if I ever saw one, and in a dedicated scout vehicle as well.  I suppose I'll put scouts aboard the recon company's BRDMs, improving the capabilities of the company.

So what can u build in house?

Trucks, ammo, and small arms is probably the limit of Serednya Slaviya's industry.  We can at least maintain heavy equipment, but construction isn't happening.  Something like a BTR-80 is beyond the capabilities of Serednya Slaviya, though heavy trucks are doable.  I would suppose it's the electronics and armor welding capability that we don't have; that means we're also importing our missiles from France and other former Soviet states.

In addition to the BMP debate, I'm wondering - B1 Centauro or AMX-10 RC for the cavalry squadrons?  The Centauro's got the edge in having a NATO standard 105mm compared to the short-cased AMX-10, and is 20km/h faster on roads, but there's other factors than just stats that justify a vehicle.  Things like the AMX-10 RC's skid steering letting it rotate in place, for example...  I can find the price for the B1 Centauro at 1.6m Euros, but not the AMX-10 RC's cost. 

EDIT: Thinking more on the BTR/BMP mix.  I'm debating having one of my combined-arms battalions be BMP-2 based, since the original Motor Rifle Division that made up the Serednya Slaviyan Land Forces had 150 BMPs and just over 300 BTR-80s in it.  They seat the same crew and passengers as a BTR-80, but if I go with the mixed force route I'd lose the seventh man in a rifle squad and keep the seat behind the driver empty.  It just makes more sense to have the infantry in the infantry compartment and not having to split them up.  Other than the heavier 30mm gun and a few ATGMs, what does the BMP bring that the BTR doesn't?

[Daryk]

I was referring to the PT-76, actually...  8)

And I'm pretty sure this didn't come out quite like you intended:

...from France and other former Soviet states.

:D

[Failure16]

Which idea, the BMP-23?  I'm still thinking about using it for a personnel transport, just using the same seven-man squads as the BTR-80s use and using the roominess to carry extra goods.  Unfortunatly GHQ doesn't have a miniature for that, so maybe I'll stick to BMP-2s instead.

You can always email GHQ and see how much they would sell you BMP-2 turrets if you bought a commensurate of 2S1 hulls/packs. They don't really do custom orders like Randy at PFC C-in-C used to do, but I know they do sell them (I just think the price might not be perfectly reasonable).

EDIT: Thinking more on the BTR/BMP mix.  I'm debating having one of my combined-arms battalions be BMP-2 based, since the original Motor Rifle Division that made up the Serednya Slaviyan Land Forces had 150 BMPs and just over 300 BTR-80s in it.  They seat the same crew and passengers as a BTR-80, but if I go with the mixed force route I'd lose the seventh man in a rifle squad and keep the seat behind the driver empty.  It just makes more sense to have the infantry in the infantry compartment and not having to split them up.  Other than the heavier 30mm gun and a few ATGMs, what does the BMP bring that the BTR doesn't?

Flammable gas tanks on the rear doors and a few centimeters less head-clearance? Better mobility, though, but that comes with the maintenance cost and irritated locals when you tear up their roads (Russian tracks lacking the rubber cleats/shoes of Western tracks).

You know, an Israeli firm modernized Indonesian Marine BTR-50s and PT-76s with new powerpacks, 90s, and electronics:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210606192323/https://www.nimda.co.il/image/users/199098/ftp/my_files/btr-50/BTR-50.pdf?id=9409600

You can think of eventually upgrading your PT-76s, at least. I do remember reading that the -76 was okay at fording European rivers, but the Indians found it unsuitable for their monster water obstacle. The engines would overheat and die out partway through a river crossing, which then began to begat deletrious secondary effects. I don't have a source handy for that, but it stuck out in my mind.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I was referring to the PT-76, actually...  8)

Ah...it's just an idea, I think I'll stick with the Polish-modified BRDM-2s and their scout teams, and a platoon of PT-91s for the two Recon Companies.  It gives some bite to the recon company, but the PT-91s are iffy and I might go with something wheeled, depending on whether I decide the AMX-10 RC or B1 Centauro.  I'm still leaning towards the latter, with the fact it serves NATO standard 105mm ammo a big plus.

And I'm pretty sure this didn't come out quite like you intended: :D

Well I won't say it was deliberate, but... :D

You can always email GHQ and see how much they would sell you BMP-2 turrets if you bought a commensurate of 2S1 hulls/packs. They don't really do custom orders like Randy at PFC C-in-C used to do, but I know they do sell them (I just think the price might not be perfectly reasonable).

Well, I could always buy one pack of each and swap turrets to make BMP-23s and Bmptillery pieces :D  But as mentioned below there's good reasons to avoiding tracked vehicles, at least the Soviet style ones.  All-steel tracks are well...in the words of Homer Simpson, "look at that pavement fly!"  (Okay not quite, but the point still remains.)

Flammable gas tanks on the rear doors and a few centimeters less head-clearance? Better mobility, though, but that comes with the maintenance cost and irritated locals when you tear up their roads (Russian tracks lacking the rubber cleats/shoes of Western tracks).

I've read the standard procedure is to only use the door gas tanks on long marches, and keep them empty when planning for combat.  Granted, going in short on fuel is its own set of problems, but at least they acknowledge the issue.  I think I'll pass for the reasons above; plus who wants to deal with thrown tracks?  At least the tanks bring protected firepower to the fight and will last a little while.  I just kinda wish I had more of them, but I don't have the means to really support them without foreign assistance.

You know, an Israeli firm modernized Indonesian Marine BTR-50s and PT-76s with new powerpacks, 90s, and electronics:

Interesting slideshow, they did quite the improvement and made it a right little gun truck in the photos on that page.  Looks like a Browning 1919 up front and PKMs with a different stock design on the sides.  Count on the Israelis to work the deep magic with upgrading hardware...

You can think of eventually upgrading your PT-76s, at least. I do remember reading that the -76 was okay at fording European rivers, but the Indians found it unsuitable for their monster water obstacle. The engines would overheat and die out partway through a river crossing, which then began to begat deletrious secondary effects. I don't have a source handy for that, but it stuck out in my mind.

There's not that many rivers in Sere-Slav, so I can live without an amphibious capability - not that I would turn it down if it came with a vehicle, mind you, but it's not a ride-or-die option.  Needless to say, that would utterly suck blowing an engine midriver and floating away with the current...deleterious secondary effects indeed.  I hope the crews got out okay.

So I've been staring at the idea of the VAB for a while now and it finally settled in my brain - why am I trading BTR-80s for VABs?  I already have the BTR-80s left over from the USSR, and the French vehicle is a design that's ten years older than the BTR, so why would I trade down like that?  I feel like I should be focusing on more modern vehicles, and just taking the financial hit and a slow procurement process for them.

I'm leaning more and more to the Freccia, the Centauro redone as an APC.  That would give me a strong Italian flavor in the service, but the Freccias only run about 2.5 million USD compared to 5+ for something like a Boxer.  I can keep some French influence by switching the LMVs to VBLs, which I kind of wanted to do anyway, as well as keeping the MILAN ATGMs in the infantry.  Anyone got a good reason why I shouldn't switch to the Centauro/Freccia family for the cavalry forces?

[kato]

It lasts 20 minutes and has three cameras, and two of those, a control unit, and a charging unit costs between forty and sixty thousand bucks.  That's just insane compared to the price of civilian drones

Black Hornets aren't very practical at all in the field, and generally only used for special ops kinda stuff where cost, efficiency or anything except bling is not an issue.

The budget entry level on VTOL drones for infantry or comparable use (read: DJI) with halfway decent cameras is around 10-15 grand right now, for some older (obsolete) models you can get package deals down to around 5-10 grand.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That's still prohibitively expensive if I want something at platoon level for both my infantry and my scouts.  I'm shopping for civilian drones, something in the 300-500 dollar price hopefully that can send back video to a smartphone or tablet.

[chanman]

Which idea, the BMP-23?  I'm still thinking about using it for a personnel transport, just using the same seven-man squads as the BTR-80s use and using the roominess to carry extra goods.  Unfortunatly GHQ doesn't have a miniature for that, so maybe I'll stick to BMP-2s instead.

Hm, the Polish BRDM-2s with the belly wheels removed has room for two dismounts.  That's a scout pair carrier if I ever saw one, and in a dedicated scout vehicle as well.  I suppose I'll put scouts aboard the recon company's BRDMs, improving the capabilities of the company.

Trucks, ammo, and small arms is probably the limit of Serednya Slaviya's industry.  We can at least maintain heavy equipment, but construction isn't happening.  Something like a BTR-80 is beyond the capabilities of Serednya Slaviya, though heavy trucks are doable.  I would suppose it's the electronics and armor welding capability that we don't have; that means we're also importing our missiles from France and other former Soviet states.

In addition to the BMP debate, I'm wondering - B1 Centauro or AMX-10 RC for the cavalry squadrons?  The Centauro's got the edge in having a NATO standard 105mm compared to the short-cased AMX-10, and is 20km/h faster on roads, but there's other factors than just stats that justify a vehicle.  Things like the AMX-10 RC's skid steering letting it rotate in place, for example...  I can find the price for the B1 Centauro at 1.6m Euros, but not the AMX-10 RC's cost. 

EDIT: Thinking more on the BTR/BMP mix.  I'm debating having one of my combined-arms battalions be BMP-2 based, since the original Motor Rifle Division that made up the Serednya Slaviyan Land Forces had 150 BMPs and just over 300 BTR-80s in it.  They seat the same crew and passengers as a BTR-80, but if I go with the mixed force route I'd lose the seventh man in a rifle squad and keep the seat behind the driver empty.  It just makes more sense to have the infantry in the infantry compartment and not having to split them up.  Other than the heavier 30mm gun and a few ATGMs, what does the BMP bring that the BTR doesn't?

So my take on this is that your nation is a poor post-Communist Slavic country. That means between the privations of the Cold War and the poverty that follows, the country is probably teeming with shade-tree mechanics (and distillers, but I digress), and cheap labour (and resulting continuing emigration and working abroad through avenues legal or otherwise) and cheap labour.

That means that any time the question is between "Buy new vs. buy discount and modify", there's a good case to be made for "buy discount and modify" unless a lot of dodgy yachts, hookers, and blow are involved. There's a reason there are so many T-72 offshoots, T-55 upgrade kits, and Ukrainian export tank designs (before the war) and mixmaster kitbashes during the war, with engineers and workers both affordable.

I mean, that runs counter to your idea of using existing designs, but the answer to "Wheeled assault gun" might just be to design some direct-fire ammo and an armour package for existing 2S23 Nona-SVKs.

I would draw inspiration from the ex-Yugoslavia countries, some of which are about the size of Sere Slav, as well as Cold War-era independent projects by WP countries, China from post Sino-Soviet split up to the mid-90s, or Israel from 1948 up to 1970 or so. What's the modern equivalent of an M50/M51 Super Sherman?

Can you turn 2S1 SPGs into tank destroyers by slapping in a 120mm NATO gun lifted from mothballed Spanish Leo 2A4s?


And for your "We have Centauro at home" vibes:


Predecessor designs were rolling around in the 80s and 90s, so arranging a license (or not. IP theft is a thing, after all) shouldn't have been an issue, along with an option to keep using old T-54/T-55 guns or L7 105mms.

And just for Failure16, AMX-10RC-at-home vibes from the 1980s development program.





Eventually, the PTL-02

[chanman]

Also, when you get around to painting up minis, keep this in mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHFWcC3DQnY

[DOC_Agren]

Trucks, ammo, and small arms is probably the limit of Serednya Slaviya's industry.  We can at least maintain heavy equipment, but construction isn't happening.  Something like a BTR-80 is beyond the capabilities of Serednya Slaviya, though heavy trucks are doable.  I would suppose it's the electronics and armor welding capability that we don't have; that means we're also importing our missiles from France and other former Soviet states.

So your nation has no internal "Heavy Manufacturing Base" so once you leave Trucks your are out of "Homemade options"?
So you are one of the few nations that were Soviet Bloc without "Heavy Industries".  Might be time to start a plant to "build" spare parts.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Pretty much that, yes.  Serednya Slaviya's made of an portion of northwestern Ukraine that went independent in the 1910s and got swallowed up into the Warsaw Pact, and only broke into freedom in 1991.  It's not a large country, with a current population of 2,184,000 and a land area of 15,520 square miles, in a roughly square shape.  If you want to look up more about it, research the Volyn and Rivne oblasts of Ukraine.

Militarily there's 12,643 personnel under arms, with 11,508 in the Land Forces and 1,135 in the Air Force.  Under Soviet times the Land Forces was a bit larger, and made up a complete Motor-Rifle Division; since then I've trimmed it down by about 20% into the military that it is now.  That left me a large amount of vehicles, which has a surplus that can be sold on the open market.  That's probably where I started my procurement from, getting rid of BMP-2s and extra BTR-80s and other hardware.

I picture Serednya Slaviya as having a decent civilian-market factory setting; there's a tractor and engine plant in Rivne (along with a nuclear power plant) but I don't see much in the way of homegrown military hardware.  The heavy industry required for armor working and building armored vehicle chassis just isn't there.  Small things like VBLs with what amounts to structural steel, okay, I can build those but it's basically a glorified offroad mini-SUV.  Electronics...would be imported; I'm dealing with a country that still manufactures vacuum tubes in large numbers.  It's a bit behind the times.

As far as comparitive nations go, Slovenia's got a similar population but half the land area.  However...a quick check shows they produce their own armored personnel carrier, with help from GenDyn Land Systems Europe.  The Valuk isn't heavily armored, only against 12.7mm fire from the front 30 degree arc and 7.62mm fire around the rest of the vehicle.  That's not that heavy, and gives me a baseline to work with.

Comparing that to the Freccia and Centauro, well, the Valuk's half their mass so that tells me the armor plate is probably around twice as thick, plus ceramic plates to aid in protection.  I suppose I could end up building my own vehicles, licensed production with some technology transfers and bootstrapping of industry from Italy.  At the very least, I should be able to maintain and repair the things, if I can't find a way to build them in-house.  Something like a VBL, definitely built locally under license.

Soviet Green...it's made of people!  Seriously, I figured on a generic olive drab/medium green for my vehicles, something that would blend well in a forest since there's a large amount of woodlands in that portion of Ukraine.  Since I'm my own country, I can decide my own color schemes; one benefit of going independent.

I want to try to stick with NATO equipment, since we joined in 1999.  But damnit chanman, you made me go look up Chinese hardware just to look at what's available and I found the Type 08 AFV family that includes a gun carrier with a Chinese copy of a British L7 cannon.  It's also got an IFV and APC and artillery and more variants as well, and the biggest thing is that they're all amphibious somehow.  They're also dirt cheap due to the Chinese producing five thousand of the things; at 1.6 million USD that beats out even the Freccia's 2.5 million USD.

The IFV even carries Soviet weapons; it's got the same 30mm autocannon as the BMP-2 and carries Malyutka missiles, so I have the gun technology present already.  The ZTL-11 carries the British 105mm gun, which is NATO ammunition compatible, so...damn, now I'm not sure.  Go Italian or go Chinese?  I can get minis from GHQ for both, so I'm not limiting my collection options there.  This would be for the cavalry, which I should be able to afford to upgrade hardware wise and leaving the combined-arms battalions with legacy hardware.

[DOC_Agren]

So I would look at those Chinese units...  and I bet the Chinese would love to get access to another "European Country" with their hardware.
The other option would be looking at Israeli military hardware.  They worked up Nimda Shoet, a Soviet BTR-152 knockoff/improved..

[chanman]

China also makes 155mm artillery. Saudi Arabia and I think Kuwait use it.

I would think the ZTL-08 might be a bit of a political hot potato coming as part of the recent wave of modernization. The older series though were from a time when all was fair.

Mind you, there are no hard and fast rules. NATO member Greece operates a surprising amount of Russian hardware. Thailand operates a bunch of Norinco hardware, including some very new export MBT and wheeled IFVs.

Anyway, my pitch would be that being outside the EU, Serednya Slaviya isn't bound by their embargos (although I'm not sure those even included imports anyway). In the 90s and 2000's, we're still firmly in the 'end of history' era through to GWOT, and even in a best-case scenario, economic reforms still have a ways to go to make Serednya Slaviya a rich or even rich-ish country.

In that context, especially pre-1999, Chinese weapons give your military probably the first new gear since the Soviet commission made a paperwork error in the mid-1970s. The bare-bones nature of those period weapons also address the company store issue (lots of alternative suppliers, and an ability to reverse-engineer designs). For example, one of the first things your army might do is check the engines and rip them out for German diesels as/when needed.

Think of them as a disposable base platform that you plan to replace instead of upgrading forever. Depending on how corrupt or not the country is, maybe they pay a bunch of kickbacks for industrial offsets, or some well-placed individuals get rich quick, or the saved money is plowed into national development, so that the government will have actual money to play with 20 years later when you modernize for realsies.

When you're talking about Ukraine or Moldova or a number of the smaller East Euro states (Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, ex-FRY republics), it makes more sense to consider them as you would an African or SE Asian country fresh out of decolonization and there are things you can (and probably need) to do and get away with before joining the big clubs with their big club rules.

[Daryk]

The Chinese gear could have been an interim solution before going Italian...  ^-^

[ANS Kamas P81]

Political hot potato in what way?  Obviously avoiding rule 4, but I'm curious what you mean.

I'm mixed on the older stuff, since it'd be contemporary to what Serednya Slaviya has already - I'm thinking that after cherrypicking what was the best hardware out of that MRD that made up their army they had a full set of 1985's BTR-80s and BMP-2s, and T-72s for the land forces.  Give the Air Force its squadron of MiG-29s, and as far as Soviet hardware from the mid-1980s goes we're sitting pretty.  It's replacing it in the current years that I'm going around in circles on.

Economic reforms...well, the government that rose up in the wake of the coup/civil war of 1994 probably took its sweet time pushing and rebuilding reforms into the economy.  I imagine the military began its reforms around that time, watching as the West and especially the Americans shrank and reformed its army, then watched again as that army took on the GWOT.  And slowly it modernized, following somewhat in its own organization.

Which led us to the 2000s...maybe Serednya Slaviya didn't join NATO in 1999 or 2004 like Poland or much of Eastern Europe.  The later 2000s roll around, and while we've got good relations with Poland (and relied on their modernization of our T-72s to PT-91 standard) we're still the redheaded stepchild of the region.  So it's about then that the Chinese offer their unbeatably priced modernized vehicles, and Serednya Slaviya snaps it up over the next ten years.  That lets me start the acquisition program for the ZTL-11/ZBL-08 duo and begin getting vehicles, and then the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 happens and that's when Serednya Slaviya hits the panic button and joins NATO.

It's still a poor country, a domestic GDP per capita of under 5,000 USD per year, but it's getting better and the technology transfers from China, Poland, and France are helping.

I'm liking the Chinese hardware for its price, of course, but also because it makes Serednya Slaviya kind of unique in their makeup.  Sprinkling in some French equipment - the VBLs and MILANs, and a couple platoons of EBRC Jaguar scout vehicles - definitely makes for an eclectic mix of capabilities, all of it wheeled.  Sere-Slav went Chinese eventually, before realizing NATO was a really good idea post-Euromaidan and applied for membership.  I figure they probably got into the alliance in 2015 or 2016, to give time for the debate to occur.  We're probably waiting on EU membership, but haven't joined that organization yet.

What say ye, fellow thread denizens.  Believable delays in rebuilding things economically and a slower reformation of the economy and military and industry leading to the Chinese buy-in and the ZBL/ZTL buy.

The MiG-29s we have...well, we're probably getting desperate help from the Poles to keep them flying, but they're going to have to be replaced sooner or later before they Theseus themselves.

And Daryk makes a good point; the Serednya Slaviyan economy's taken a buffeting but has been growing in these last years, maybe the Italians finally made inroads and started wooing away the procurement office from Beijing's hardware to replace the rest of its Soviet equipment with the Freccia/Centauro combo.  But they don't float, and the Chinese stuff does, and there's a lot of rivers and lakes in those two oblasts...decisions, decisions...

[chanman]

The Chinese gear could have been an interim solution before going Italian...  ^-^

That would look pretty good with whitewall tires, right? ^_^