Required military reading at Military academies

[Metallgewitter]

The training of soldiers and especially officers always requires them reading books on military theories. So do you think the academies also require aspiring officers to read bokks from pre-spaceflight Terra? I could imagine that the Confederation and Combine would require it's officers to read Sun-Tzu's "Art of war" and perhaps the Lyran Commonwealth requires it's officers to at least read  Clausewitz "Of War". Do you think the states all have their specific books that fall in their culture from those times? I would suspect that books from Kerensky or McKenna are required but I am more interested in the old "classics"

[Alan Grant]

We know they do, in many novels I've seen real world military history referenced a lot. I don't mean ideas borrowed from, I mean direct references. Like in dialogue and conversation.

In one novel, Victor is conversing with one of his siblings and it somehow turns into a reference to how that sibling has been running a simulation or wargame of an army that got stuck fighting Russia in winter, not sure if it was a Napolean or WW2 reference off the top of my head. He asked if th e simulation/wargame was taking into account just how bad the winter was that year, then pivoted to asking how/why that sister was doing that as her academic major was something else entirely, and she replied something like "I have electives" to indicate she was studying some military history as an elective. I think it was Yvonne.

That's just one example, I can remember about 4 others from sourcebooks as well as novels.

Also, think about how the references in Battletech that are just loaded with real world history. From Northwind Highlanders and their ties to Scotland, to the FWL invoking King Arthur with the Knights of the Inner Sphere. They aren't afraid to pull directly from even Arthur legend. Do I even need to mention the Marians? They weren't exactly Roman scholars, they were periphery bandits who set that up. But they knew plenty about the ancient Romans. A guy named Ethan Allen established the Green Mountain Boys. Mercenary units with names that are historical references, that's a whole lotta historical or mythological knowledge plugged into the Battletech universe right there.

If there is one thing Battletech is consistent on, it is digging up LOTS of real world history and particularly military history. In light of that, one can only conclude that cadets at military academies are very familiar with these topics. It's the only sensible explanation for just how often these references make an appearance in-universe. I mean BT really beats the military history references to death sometimes.

They probably are biased to shared history of similar cultural influences. For example Great Houses where the primary culture is that of European heritage, studying fellow Europeans from history. But that doesn't exclude or preclude other stuff from popping up. Since lots of sub-cultures exist within each Great House.

Beyond that, feel free to use your own imagination to plug in who is taught what. In practical curriculum terms, it could literally change based on what's popular and vogue at that moment, or even stem from which professor they got for whatever class. If you are in Mr. Harding's 3:30 seminar, he's fond of Sun Tzu. If you got Professor Keating at 5 p.m., oh boy you better know who Wellington was, and if you don't, you are about to.

[butchbird]

There was a "twilight of the clans" novel...Might've been the second one, where they detail the broad strokes of the "smoke jaguar annihlation", discussing "entropic war" and such. Clausewitz was referenced pretty heavily from what I recall, but then my memory ain't the best. Still, I'm pretty sure that's were I was exposed to Clausewitz for the first time.

As far as "Sun-Tzu's Art of War" is concerned, I got (again this is somewhat far away in my memory but then the capellan solution are two of the books I re-read the most in my teens) the vague impression in "the capellan solution" that this classic text had been somewhat phased out but that Sun Tzu Liao had made a heavy push to bring it back as a "cornerstone reading" in the CCAF...and Ion Rush had read a different translation then the one Sun Tzu Liao was quoting, at some point.

Inevitably, you can't re-invent the wheel. While much "military philosophy" looses its pertinence as the decades go by, quite the few maintain all their relevance regardless of the centurys that have passed. The art of war is the best example, it deals efficiently with its material, no sense in bot continuing to use it, hence we do so even nearly 2400 years after it's writing and counting...wouldn't be surprised the same would be true of clausewitz in the 31st century.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

"Application of Humanitarian Law in the Periphery" by Amos Forlough should be mandatory reading in every military academy

[Metallgewitter]

"Application of Humanitarian Law in the Periphery" by Amos Forlough should be mandatory reading in every military academy

I see what you did there

Yes I remember the books where Clausewitz is mentioned. Victor also mentions Moltke's "No plan survives the encounter with the enemy" during the Refusal trial. Or how Archer Christifori talks about the battle for Alesia. And Sun Tzu mentions his namessake work to the CO of the McCarrons' Cavalry only to get the retort "I own the digital version". I was more interested if each house has a say favor for certain theorists that most align with their own cultural roots.

[Alan Grant]

The simple answer to that question is we don't know. There's no canon list of the required readings/study topics of each of BT's named military academies.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

There was a "twilight of the clans" novel...Might've been the second one, where they detail the broad strokes of the "smoke jaguar annihlation", discussing "entropic war" and such. Clausewitz was referenced pretty heavily from what I recall, but then my memory ain't the best. Still, I'm pretty sure that's were I was exposed to Clausewitz for the first time.

Exhibit A of why you should never write a "genius," you just end up with shit like this:

Victor: Hello, assembled military leaders. Here's my master plan! [recites basic concepts of warfare that line up with how the IS has been fighting for centuries]

Author: He is a military genius, one of the best leaders ever

[The Eagle]

I don't think anyone ever accused Victor of being a genius.  In fact, there's a sideboard in the FCCW sourcebook from an RCT commander who says something to effect of "I'd love him as a battalion commander, but he's crap at macro-strategy."

As for required reading, I'm certain there's more in-universe stuff used than treatises written during, or even before, our current period.  FM:FWL for example quotes from a Primer on Strategy and Tactics by Aleksandr Kerensky which I can almost guarantee is one of the most well-read books in the Inner Sphere given his importance and prominence in the universe.  I can also see certain successor lords like Alexander Davion or Kenyon Marik having written their own manuals or memoirs that are included in their specific national academies as a matter of pride.

[Sartris]

Amusingly, the greatest commanders in history up to our time would be several rungs down from Kerensky in the SLDF chain of command based on the scope of their operations.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I don't think anyone ever accused Victor of being a genius.  In fact, there's a sideboard in the FCCW sourcebook from an RCT commander who says something to effect of "I'd love him as a battalion commander, but he's crap at macro-strategy."

Basically every bio they write of Victor mentions that he's some kind of military prodigy. For instance, here's the first line of his bio in M&M:

Even Victor Steiner-Davion’s enemies would admit (grudgingly) that he is one of the finest military leaders the Inner Sphere has ever seen—standing alongside the likes of Aleksandr Kerensky and Hanse Davion.

And yes, Absalom Dirksen does exist and he is the GOAT, because he's willing to say what nobody else was going to.

[BrianDavion]

Basically every bio they write of Victor mentions that he's some kind of military prodigy. For instance, here's the first line of his bio in M&M:

And yes, Absalom Dirksen does exist and he is the GOAT, because he's willing to say what nobody else was going to.

Pfft you don't get to complain about VSD in this context while ignoring SunTzu Liao. VSD at least had to fight for his victories, as opposed to being handed them on a silver platter by writers willing to literally warp the universe to his advantage

[butchbird]

Well concerning cultural ties leading to certain authors being favored...

Every successor state holds a myriad of terran cultural origins and while on a "planet to planet" basis, different cultures have (probably, this is but a theory from some weirdo on an internet forum after all, but humans do what humans does and the BTU tends to respect that) been mostly isolated and then warped to meet the needs of a new environment and the whims and tendencys of time, the military is another matter. People from all over the state gather together.

The military tends to have its "own" culture up to a certain point and in such vast states with so many different cultural identitys, it's inevitable a huge mix happens inside this microcosm. I'd tend to speculate that the main "cultural root" of each successor state doesn't really favor specific authors, especially in the case of pre-spaceflight terran authors.

Would've wanted to make that less

Pfft you don't get to complain about VSD in this context while ignoring SunTzu Liao. VSD at least had to fight for his victories, as opposed to being handed them on a silver platter by writers willing to literally warp the universe to his advantage

confuse, I'm unfortunately in a bad disposition, but this is interesting.

Board Member Brian Davion criticising Sun Tzu Liao's character, how very early 21st century. Makes me feel like the FCCW was yesteryear. How reconforting.

But it must be said that the conjuncture was favorable to all the other major players ignoring the Confederation's actions, with or whithout fiat.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Pfft you don't get to complain about VSD in this context while ignoring SunTzu Liao. VSD at least had to fight for his victories, as opposed to being handed them on a silver platter by writers willing to literally warp the universe to his advantage

Sun-Tzu only had to be smart enough to outsmart literally the stupidest person you can imagine. It's a low bar, but at least it doesn't actively contradict what the writers put it in front of me.

[BrianDavion]

Sun-Tzu only had to be smart enough to outsmart literally the stupidest person you can imagine. It's a low bar, but at least it doesn't actively contradict what the writers put it in front of me.

"People on conquere4d planets don't care what flag flies over them" "opps that doesn't count, tee hee"

[Metallgewitter]

Sun-Tzu only had to be smart enough to outsmart literally the stupidest person you can imagine. It's a low bar, but at least it doesn't actively contradict what the writers put it in front of me.

He also outsmarted Victor's sister. Guess she is just as stupid too, huh?

And later got curbstomped by Devlin Stone. Karma can be a real bitch, right?

[Minemech]

He also outsmarted Victor's sister. Guess she is just as stupid too, huh?

And later got curbstomped by Devlin Stone. Karma can be a real bitch, right?

Yes, Katherine was also very stupid. She was also absurdly petty and shortsighted, neither caring for or about her people.

[Atlas3060]

To the whole thread:

It would be nice to stop the whole "This faction is better than yours/This Character was written like..." dunkfest I've seen ad naseum in other threads where it doesn't need to be, much like this one.

We should focus on the OP's question. I think in universe sure older historical doctrines are studied alongside any more contemporary ones for a culture. It makes sense, even in today's real life militaries they look to ancient Roman and Greek or any other cultures to see how war was waged in those places and with whatever tech they had at the time.

The information is the ammunition after all.

From out of universe, it's far easier to make references to actual generals and strategies than something in universe, but as a reader I'd love to see more of the latter. Even if it is just filing off the serial numbers of older generals.
Something like "We should use the McEvedy's offense from the old Terran Alliance days..." and it probably be something similar to how the Tortiose formation of Roman days went but with tanks and aero or something similar.
So long as the writers don't go super specific in a way that'll give the fact checking crew palpations. 

[Minemech]

 The problem with this is that is really varies by bloodline. Mariks for example are supposed to be trained from their youth and would likely be reading a lot of material not covered in or available to military academies. This is an example of a blood right that would not be as accessible to a common Free Worlder. You can assume that blood rights pervaded families throughout the Succession War period and helped elevate noble families across the Inner Sphere with knowledge of what is offered in various academies in mind. This is part of why Janos' choice to attend a different military academy was so scandalous. Works like the Art of War would probably not be within the standard curriculum, but rather in optional seminars across the Successor States.

[Metallgewitter]

But wouldn't the state give a list of literature that every school has to put in their curciculum? I mean yes we have several private schools that are not operated by the goverment but by private individuals but I would expect that they have to at least adhere to state guidelines. Also I would think that especially noble born students also read other books. for example the book "On Politics" (penned by the guy who bribed the Hegemony to build Unity City in his district) is mandatory reading for all Kurita nobles.

[ActionButler]

But wouldn't the state give a list of literature that every school has to put in their curciculum? I mean yes we have several private schools that are not operated by the goverment but by private individuals but I would expect that they have to at least adhere to state guidelines.

It stands to reason that the state apparatus would establish some level of minimum standard, but that wouldn't necessarily cover reading material.

[butchbird]

It stands to reason that the state apparatus would establish some level of minimum standard, but that wouldn't necessarily cover reading material.

Which takes us back to the fact enounced near the start of the thread that the individual teacher will have a great impact on what material you must study. It's astonishing how two people can have vastly different interpretations of what is to be covered by a specific course name. A "Litterature of X people/nation" course given by two different teacher could cover so vastly different topics and authors that you'd think they're not talking of the same country altogether. True story.

Also, the readings "offering" would probably vary per house, offering certain constants and constraints, particularly in military subjects from the age of war on. Particularly, it can easily be assumed that most Combine schools would have very little "outsider" influence.

But for "the art of war"... I'd offer that it's such a classic, covering efficiently basic stuff AND a basic read in such vastly (or are they?) different fields as military affaires and buisnmess management, that it would still probably be one of the possible first thing they hand out to cadets entering military schools in the 31st century.

[Minemech]

 Most quality works were likely composed by people who we have never had material on. Some works might even be requisite material for certain units. Who knows what crazy material the 2nd Oriente Hussars or 13th Marik Militia might have required.

[Metallgewitter]

Then I wonder what books the Lyran cadets read when their most basic military solution is "Big Mechs with big guns and we don't care about speed" Yes the enlisted and NCO's are usually a cut above the IS standard but their officers are often let's say not up to par. Even with progressive Generals of the Armies like Adam Steiner or his succesor.

[BrianDavion]

Then I wonder what books the Lyran cadets read when their most basic military solution is "Big Mechs with big guns and we don't care about speed" Yes the enlisted and NCO's are usually a cut above the IS standard but their officers are often let's say not up to par. Even with progressive Generals of the Armies like Adam Steiner or his succesor.

The Lyran's problem is more cultural then educational. with a heavy dose of "old boys network" involved.
The problem is that competancy isn't nesscarily rewarded but who you smooze with. (there's an element of that in every military, but the Lyrans have a worse case of it) the Nanglering, it's worth noting has produced BRILLIANT commanders. Aleksander Kerensky, Focht, Victor Steiner-Davion, all commanders of great repute in universe whom graduated from the Nanglering.
So yeah the problem is NOT education, it's clearly cultural, and that's a hard thing to change

[Minemech]

it's worth noting has produced BRILLIANT commanders who I will list in descending order of merit, skill and ability: Aleksander Kerensky, Focht, Thomas Hogarth, Victor Steiner-Davion, all commanders of great repute in universe who had graduated from the Nanglering.

EDIT: recontextualized
EDIT: Please just DM me the next time I forget something this trifling. It was clearly not meant to defame the poster but rather to build an a jest he made using an oldskool erm... (or cough cough) framework, punctuated by the caps. Heck, a mod could have fixed it before anyone saw it and talked to me about it later had you directed them to it.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/erm

[Alan Grant]

I imagine military history that emphasizes linear warfare might come up a lot in Lyran education.

Think heavy infantry (from ancient times that could include greek phalanx and roman infantry), pikemen, formations of musket carrying soldiers from the 1600-1800s. Blocks or echelons of troops you move around a battlefield in linear warfare with cavalry and artillery as supporting arms.

I could see them leaning into Prussian military history, in part because so much of the original material would be written in German.

Slow but deadly. With cavalry as a supporting arm for scouting and exploiting breaches of the enemy's line. The Lyran BattleMech regiments have often included "lightning" companies of lighter machines but they are seen as support (flanking and scouting forces) rather than the core of the regiment.

By comparison, the Federated Suns, have more traditionally studied non-linear tactics. Maneuver warfare and cavalry tactics. With notable exceptions among a few heavier units like the Davion Assault Guards, which emphasize almost Lyran-like echelon battlefield formations.

[idea weenie]

I'd expect the Lyrans to also have a study of economics, to determine if a world is worth protecting.  I.e. if the Lyrans have to ship food to a planet constantly, then letting Kurita take over the planet might actually be a good thing, as Kurita will have to take over the food shipments.  This would have to be balanced vs if it is acceptable to lose what the world is producing.

[Metallgewitter]

Even if they read German military literature this makes me wonder how much of it is actually understood. Clausewitz and Moltke gave pretty good impressions about what a military should do and especially Clausewitz included politics into it (the famous quote "war is politics by other means" is so often misunderstood). And heck if they really used German military books they should also include Rommel's book about infantry and von Mansteins famous "Achtung Panzer" manual.

While the Davions have their Assault formations even the Assault Guards became quite mobile. The FS field manual mentions that the commander Stephan Cooper managed to squeeze out speed you would not see in a regiment of lumbering assault and heavy Mechs.

On another note and I think that has been discussed in the Clan section too: when Clan warriors are accepted into the touman would they be given some of these literature to study? Redemption Rites make s it sound that a clan warrior trains firstly to enter the touman and only if he or she manages that the real life begins (logistics, planning etc). Especially if they enter as a Star Commander or Star Captain. When an IS officer leaves the academy he often has a lance and has at least done simulated battles with men under his or her command. And as Galen described it to Victor "yes we send them on a little raid or to a spot where a fight can break out and we basically guide them through their first battle. those that don't freeze up usually do good" But Clan warriors don't seem to learn these arts in their early days.

[Alan Grant]

Keep in mind, I didn't say German military literature. I said Prussian. I drew a line around that and largely just that, and I had reasons for doing so. The Lyran military is described as a socio-military structure. It's politics and military woven into one. I can definitely see parallels between that and the Prussian military and state. They might have taken away the wrong lessons to be sure, bent things too much toward politics and socio-economics playing key roles in who gets to be a General sometimes (keep in mind the Social Generals are the failures, not to be admired, even the Lyrans acknowledge this but find it difficult to break the cycle), but that interweaving is present all the same. Beyond that, if any Great Houses's cadets are going to study Prussian leaders and military leaders in any detail, it's probably the Lyrans. Clausewitz was also Prussian so that jives.

EDIT: I can also see the Lyrans pointing to the Prussian model, which intermixes military and politics/state quite a bit, as part of the justification for the better parts of their system. I've never actually seen them do that in canon, but that makes sense to me that they might cherry pick the pieces of that which make their model seem good and intentional. If you are a proud Lyran you aren't just going to bash the system as 100% negative, you are going to point to the upsides as well. Saying "hey look at the Prussians and how their nobles often became officers in the army and led the way, rather than just leaving warfare to just the commoners to shed blood" and point to the upsides to that. At that point they can also react to the Social Generals in some form of "never said it was a perfect system, every system produces bad leaders now and then" kind of reaction.


Before you go too far down the rabbit hole of the Clans....

We had an entire discussion of just how what Clan sibko training consists of on the Clan Chatterweb forum. How deep it went into military strategy and tactics and logistics beyond what a new warrior would need. Whether or not it would be comprehensive and they would learn that stuff young, or whether that education would come up later in their careers or not. Whether ANY continuing education on military topics would come up or not. Whether the colleges had post-sibko war colleges of any kind. When and how Clan Warriors were exposed to support topics like logistics and to what extent.

Honestly the conversation degenerated into a slurry of opinions and a presentation of lots of little pieces of canon evidence. What little canon evidence did exist tended to be of more recent vintage and era, like from the Dark Age and IlClan era books. Some of that stuff did suggest sibkos were exposed to some ancient Terran history. But then there was a lot of disagreement over if that was the state of things around the time of Operation Revival and earlier Clan eras, or if that was a more recent development in the generations After Revival as the Clans were exposed to the Inner Sphere more.

Most of the people involved in the discussion drew their own conclusions. Some thought the sibko training was really comprehensive. Some thought it prepared them for the first ToP and little else. Some thought there was continuing education available after the become a warrior or bloodnamed. Some thought it was more like being taught this stuff mentor style. Or that the information was there, to be studied at the warrior's discretion as they needed it (as they rose in rank and position).

Everyone had their own conclusions, and almost no one had enough canon evidence to definitively prove anything. The discussion was interesting but also frustrating in some ways. There was lots of gaps for people to project their own opinions.

You can find that discussion here:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,76530.0.html

There, I just saved you hours of your life. I see no need to rehash that here.

[paladin2019]

EDIT: recontextualized

Point of order: Changing the actual quote and leaving it in the quote block as if it's what was actually said is bad form.