Author Topic: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs  (Read 1044 times)

Greatclub

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MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« on: 11 February 2024, 17:44:21 »
Disclaimer - this isn't nearly as proof-read as it should be, but I've been working on it too bloody long

There’s only 40-odd canon mechs with C3 masters? I expected more.

Daimyo DMO-5K; DC/FRR, DC only after the later ceases to exist.

It’s 40 tons, near max armor, 5/8, and has an ER-PPC. The thing is near the definition of trooper.

Grade: Very acceptable for a bit over 1K.

Mongoose II MON-268; Lyran, Kell, merc, RoTS

Also 40 tons, but trades weaponry and armor for Locust Speed with MASC on top. Three ER mediums with tarcomp mean you can’t snipe, but is very acceptable for harassing and self defence.

Grade: expensive at 1.2k, but well above-average; The fastest C3 master

Komodo KIM-3C: DC

Doesn’t have the Daimyo’s range, doesn’t have the speed of the mongoose, but eight medium lasers make up for a multitude of sins. Unfortunately those lasers and the master mean it’s probably going to draw more than it’s share of attention, and the armor is actually a hair worse than the mongoose over an XL.

Grade: would be Below Average even if it wasn’t the most expensive master so far.

Bishamon BSN-4K: DC, RoTS

It’s fast and armored, and that’s all the good about it. MRM benefit more than usual from C3, but medium pulse and er small are held back by short range and quad firing arcs.

Grade: Below Average, but at 7/11 it is what is available if you want a fast DC lance.

Tessen TSN-C3M; DC, RoTS

If your samurai is willing to slow down to 6/9 there’s the Tessen. It drops all the other electronics off a standard Tessen, but gains a Snubbie. Unfortunately you can only walk while using both PPC without losing speed next turn.

Grade: I’m going to put this on the line of average, the price tag is high but can perform

Fennec FEC-1CM; FedSuns

Seven is a magic number when dealing with C3. That is as close as your spotters can get to a unit with ECM without being shut down. The Fennec has two PPC with a short range of 6. You’re either hoping the matchup goes your way or potentially surrendering the short range shots you paid so much BV for. Still, it’s fast, tough, can cause PSRs, and has better heat management than the Tessen we just covered. If you have the balls/overies to use your C3 master as a spotter it also has a pair of MPL.

Grade: An average slightly above the Tessen.

Thunder Fox TFT-C3: DC

It’s cheap for the weight, has an ER L Las, and decent armor. There isn’t much else right on this. It's a tech demonstrator for one of the most gimmick pieces of gear in the game

Grade: Below Average.

Scorpion SCP-12K; DC

6/9, snubbie, ERML, MML9, 6/9 quad, good but not maxed armor.  It’s a passable mech, even a good mech for the BV, but it isn’t optimized to take advantage of C3.

Grade: Below average

Black Hawk-KU BHKU-O (Albert): Unique DC

There are no 55 ton trio with C3 masters. This goes a long way to making up for that lack. Using clantech ER PPC, four ERML, almost enough heat sinks, a 5/8/5 movement profile and pretty good armor  this is the whole package. While I’m generally against mixed tech, I’ll accept it in a hero mech.

Grade: One of the best.

Grand Dragon DRG-9KC; DC

Oversinked, badly under-armored for the weight, firepower patterned like but worse than the Scorpion. It would be trivial to fix this mech, but as is the BV is low for a reason. 

Grade: Below Average.

Thunderbolt TDR-10M (Ilyena); Unique RoTS

4/6 jumper, near-max armor over a light engine, lots of standard range PPCs and a couple supporting guns. Under-sinked, but since you’re not relying on high speed you can roller-coster the heat.

Grade: Average or high average. While a good mech it doesn’t quite play to the strengths of C3, especially in the ecm-saturated post-jihad era. I have no doubt others will disagree.

Avatar AV1-OC; pretty much everyone

None of the Gen 1 IS omnis are really gems, but you get a decent amout of armor and firepower for your BV here; a significant amount of it is even range-7-short firepower. It isn’t the first thing I’d reach for when force building, but I wouldn’t be disappointed getting one.

Grade; unexciting but above average.

Avatar AV1-OU; pretty much everyone

It’s the underwater variant.

Grade: Crud in a general fight, The Man in a drink.

Shugenja SJA-7D; DC

Two large lasers and an ERPPC work, and if your spotter has gotten close enough to get you good numbers you can swap out a large laser for the MRM 30. It has more armor than the avatar but loses some range.

Grade: The MRM made me flinch initally, but I’m still giving it an above average

Shugenja SJA-8H; Wobbies, DC. Extinct after the Jihad.

WOBbies do warcrimes, and what they did here is no exception. To get the light engine and ECM suite they change the large lasers to light PPC and delete four heat sinks. It’s a downgrade unless the ECCM rules are active, and even then it’s debatable.

Grade: Below average. Replace the a-pods with ‘sinks and we can talk.

Lao Hu LHU-3B; CapCon, Canopus

The ER large and LRM 10 are both range-7-short, the LB10X is its usual high-utility self. It’s less firepower than the Avatar or Shugenja, but this is a cavalry heavy; 5/8.

Grade: above average.

Doloire DLR-OC: RoTS, then FedSuns and Merc in IlClan era.

This thing is mostly clan tech, fitted for medium range. 20 LRMs with Art V, 2 clan ER Med, 18 clan streak tubes, and a melee weapon w/AES. If you keep locking with the streaks you’ll have to drop stuff next turn, but that is a big silver lining with a small cloud. Armor is a few points off max, CASE II  probably makes up for that.

Grade: On it’s own merits I’d consider it above average, but as a C3 master the range drags it down to average.

Hatamoto-Hi HTM-CM: DC

This is the first standard engine since the Daimyo that started the article, but we’re also seeing single heat sinks. That means the two standard PPC run hot, although you aren’t going to see immediate movement penalties. Two MPL cover under the minimums. You’re paying BV for the frame, not the guns.

Grade; On the line of average. It can’t contribute as much as many of the heavies, but if you want your master in something durable this works.

O-Bakemono OBK-M12: DC

Aside from the leg armor it’s decently durable. A pair of MRM 40 with the ammo and sinks to use them is a lot of firepower if you’re willing to deal with the range, to-hit malus and being 3/5. For being the most expensive mech yet I don’t think I would be.

Grade: below average.

Hatamoto-Chi HTM-27T (Daniel II): Unique DC

If it wasn’t for speed dropping to 3/5 this ‘mech would be utterly superior to the HTM-CM reviewed above. It still has single heat sinks, but uses low-heat weapons to make the most of them. Two LB 10-X  and two streak 6 make a superior critseeker on a frame not much less survivable than the -Hi.

Grade: Above Average

Katana (Crockett) CRK-5003-CM: DC

Compared to the Daniel II, it jumps, it has a pair of ammo-less weapons, and a bit higher damage potential. On the other hand, the armor is a bit lighter.

Grade: Below average. It comes down to if you really need jump jets.

Gunslinger GUN-2ERD: entire IS, although the Capcon and FWL don’t get it until after the Jihad.

The whole package. Pair of gauss rifles, four ER mediums (hear sinks for 3 consistently) max armor (with a rear bias,) jump jets, and even an ECM in case the ECCM rules are up.

The only real drawbacks are the XL engine and 2.5 k BV cost.

Grade: One of the best.

Tai-sho TSH-7S: DC, RoTS, WOBbie

Heat management on this thing is tragic. Default salvo is one PPC and the ultra 10; if you use both PPC and walk you’ll slow down next turn. It’s a double master with max armor.

Grade; below average. I can’t get past the heat holding sustained damage below much lighter mechs. I’d love to find a way to swap out the ultra 10 for an LB10 and some sinks.

Templar TLR1-OE: FedSuns and the post-Jihad ComGuards

Another IS omnimech with an XL, although this one is at max armor. An ER PPC and two LRM 15 w/artemis form a nice long range bracket, backed up by a couple self-defense MPL and guardian ECM.  It can keep up with heavies, with firepower that is both short-range-7 and abundant.

Grade: Above Average.

Templar TLR1-OF: FedSuns and the post-Jihad ComGuards

I’m less of a fan of the heavy PPC than a lot of people, and the C3 kinda makes the range of a light gauss redundant. Besides those two there is a bevy of short range lasers and jump jets.

You have a choice of a couple playstyles, but given a choice I’ll take an E variant; it’s cheaper if nothing else.

Grade: Average.

BattleMaster BLR-CM: DC

This ‘mech doesn’t have much besides weight in common with a usual battlemaster. A slow jumper, with an ER-PPC, MRM 30 and pair of ER mediums. It’s a durable double-master, but aside from the (inaccurate) MRMs firepower is lacking.

Grade: Below Average.

BattleMaster BLR-K3: DC

This is somewhat closer to a beamer. Heavy mech speed, near-max armor over an XL. Good enough for a backliner, which is what an EP PPC and a pair of ER-L Las want you to be. There aren’t quite enough heat sinks, but it’s possible to avoid immediate malus. There’s also some short-range weapons a bit more heat-efficient you can swap in for the PPC if things get tighter.

 Grade: Well above average.

BattleMaster BLR-M3; FWL, Merc, RoTS, WOBbie

This thing is very Marik; that isn’t a complement.  Long range you have the light gauss, pair of light PPC, and a MML5. If something gets below the minimums there’s also a pair of MPL. With a light engine and a hair more armor it is tougher than the K3, but I think you get less per BV.

Grade: Average.

Cyclops CP-11-C: Everyone, but goes extinct before the dark age.

A refit of the succession wars Cyclops, it drops the LRMs for a ‘master and upgrades the AC to gauss. Under-armored, under-armed, but available and has the headcap.

Grade: Below Average.

Sunder SD1-OB: Everyone but the FWL.

It’s a first gen omni, so good but not max armor over an XL. 30 LRMs with plenty of ammo, some short range lasers for under the minimums, and a double master. I’ll cheerfully take this instead of a cyclops, but it doesn't compare well to some of the other options.

Grade: Average

Yu Huang Y-H9GC: CapCon

Big AC, ER PPC, trio of medium and MPL. Jumping heavy speed, Good armor over an XL. If you really have to get your master in close this is a good option, but you shouldn’t want to do that unless you have a way to keep the network up.

Grade: Average.

Cyclops CP-11-C2: Everyone

‘Upgrading’ to this is probably where the CP-11-C disappeared to. The gauss is downgraded to an ER-PPC, a bunch of short range firepower and a second master is added. Since armor isn’t added, you really don’t want to be in position to use the short range stuff.

Grade: Below Average.

Naginata NG-C3A: DC, WOBbie

This is the very picture of a purpose-built and dedicated C3 master ‘mech. Armor is notably below max but still OKish, speed is 3/5 with a standard engine. Weapons are all range-7-short, an ER PPC, 45 LRM tubes w/artemis, enough ammo.

Grade: Well above average.

Naginata NG-C3B: DC

Loses 15 missiles for an ER medium, ECM and a second ‘master. Ammo is left alone, which means you wind up with an excessive amount.
Grade: Above average

Hauptmann HA1-OD: LC, RoTS

Max armor with a standard engine, a pair of headcappers supported by a TarComp, a couple “get off my lawn” guns. Expensive, but a genuine compeditor to the Gunslinger and Naginata.

Grade: Well above average

Sagittaire SGT-9D: FedSuns
ER PPC, 2 LB 10 X, 3 medium lasers, enough sinks that managing heat isn’t a chore, XL engine 3/5/3 with almost max armor. I like it more than I was expecting to. Un-CASE’d explodium over an XL loses it points though.

Grade: Above average.

Pendragon PDG-3R: Fedsuns

Heavy speed via XL, max armor, a pair of ER-SRMs. (aka RAC-2s,) ER-PPC w/cap, trio of ER mediums. Enough ammo to be heavy on that trigger, Sinkage requires volley or bracket firing.

Grade: Cute, but can’t compete with several others.

Atlas AS7-CM: DC and mercs, mercs losing availability later.

Classic atlas speed and armor with an XL, LRM 20, Gauss, ER L Las. Actually better than the standard version that has an entirely spare ER L Las for far too many more points. If it ditched the XL by switching to DHS I’d actually call it good, but...

Grade: Average.

Ares ARS-V1C Aphrodite RoTS, FWL and FedSun in the IlClan era.

I haven’t played or analyzed super-heavies enough to properly grade this. My impression is a tough but slow and under-gunned (for 2.9k BV) double master.


Boosted Masters – The upside is that you don’t have to care about ECM until your opponant knows you use these, at which point Angel ECM becomes their standard.

The downside is that there just aren’t many scouts with C3b – a grand total of six units that walk 6 or higher.

Strider SR1-OM – everyone but the former FedCom

Two boosted masters, 6/9 speed and... absolutely nothing else. Keeping ‘masters out of the line of fire isn’t a bad idea, but this takes it to extreme.

Grade: for ~600 BV it’s a screaming deal if you’re into the concept.


Fennec FEC-5CM: FedSuns

I was about to give this a glowing review, then noticed it dropped speed from the lower-tech Feccec. It’s still good, the boosted master means the shorter range weapons are a much smaller issue, the RHSS keeps it from being a heat pig, and large Re-Lasers definitely have their up-points.

Grade: Above average.

Vandal LI-OA, Canopus, Capcon

I had no idea this thing existed until I started doing research for this project. Unfortunately, the curse of 5/8(10) strikes; it’s a good mech, but you can do better for the price.

Grade: Below average

Hatamoto-Godai HTM-30Z: DC

Double master with a Command Console (!) Extended LRM 15 and BAR armor. If you were playing on a 4’ x 6’ map, it would be good. Is a standard game of BT, less so. It also costs a mint for very limited offence.

Command consoles are golden in smaller games. Once you get to company level the advantage of +2 init  is partially drowned out by the number of units reacting to each other.

Grade: Below average

Gunslinger GUN-2ERDr: DC, FedSuns, RoTS

See the gunslinger above, but delete protection of the ECM while increasing the possibility of short range medium laser shots.

Grade: Still one of the best.

Cyclops CP-11-C3: DC, FedSuns

It’s a modernized -C. Notably it finally increases the armor. Unfortunately you have better choices in around the same price range, see the previous entry.

Grade: Average

Yu Huang Y-H12GC: CapCon

A pair of long range headcappers with a short-range switchblade if case a speedster gets in close, near-max armor on an assault frame, jumping heavy speed, single boosted master. The CapCon is starting to take this C3 thing seriously. Arguably oversinked.

Grade: Well above average. I'd like it even more than that if it didn't dip into clantech for the PPC.

Hauptmann HA1-O: RoTS, LC

The DC is serving you notice, they’re pissed you’re copying the OG Naginata – but better.

Grade: one of the best.

Naginata NG-C3Ar: DC, WOB, RoTS, Merc.

I had a bit of a hot take when I saw what replaced one of the LRM 15, but I suppose a large VSPL is one way to tell headhunters to bugger off. Note that C3 doesn’t change the damage or pulse bonus VSPL get. Is also now either under- or over- sinked depending on how you view bracket firing.

Grade: Average or high average. I don’t think I used to to potential in my tests.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2024, 04:32:01 by Greatclub »

Greatclub

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Re: The Masters
« Reply #1 on: 11 February 2024, 17:48:04 »
Double master
Tai-sho TSH-7S
Sunder SD1-OB
Naginata NG-C3B
Strider SR1-OM
BattleMaster BLR-CM: DC
Ares ARS-V1C Aphrodite
Hatamoto-Godai HTM-30Z

DC
Daimyo DMO-5K
Komodo KIM-3C
Bishamon BSN-4K
Tessen TSN-C3M
Thunder Fox TFT-C3
Scorpion SCP-12K
Black Hawk-KU BHKU-O (Albert)
Grand Dragon DRG-9KC
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Shugenja SJA-7D
Shugenja SJA-8H
Hatamoto-Hi HTM-CM
O-Bakemono OBK-M12
Hatamoto-Chi HTM-27T (Daniel II)
Katana (Crockett) CRK-5003-CM
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Tai-sho TSH-7S
BattleMaster BLR-CM
BattleMaster BLR-K3
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Naginata NG-C3A
Naginata NG-C3B
Atlas AS7-CM
Strider SR1-OM
Hatamoto-Godai HTM-30Z
Gunslinger GUN-2ERDr
Cyclops CP-11-C3
Naginata NG-C3Ar

FedSuns
Fennec FEC-1CM
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Doloire DLR-OC
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Templar TLR1-OE
Templar TLR1-OF
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Sagittaire SGT-9D
Pendragon PDG-3R
Fennec FEC-5CM
Gunslinger GUN-2ERDr
Cyclops CP-11-C3

CapCon
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Lao Hu LHU-3B
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Yu Huang Y-H9GC
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Strider SR1-OM
Vandal LI-OA
Yu Huang Y-H12GC

FWL
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
BattleMaster BLR-M3
Cyclops CP-11-C
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Strider SR1-OM

Lyran
Mongoose II MON-268
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Hauptmann HA1-OD
Hauptmann HA1-OM

WOBbie
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Shugenja SJA-8H
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Tai-sho TSH-7S
BattleMaster BLR-M3
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Naginata NG-C3A
Naginata NG-C3Ar

RoTS
Mongoose II MON-268
Bishamon BSN-4K
Tessen TSN-C3M
Thunderbolt TDR-10M (Ilyena)
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Doloire DLR-OC
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Tai-sho TSH-7S
BattleMaster BLR-M3
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Hauptmann HA1-OD
Ares ARS-V1C Aphrodite
Strider SR1-OM
Gunslinger GUN-2ERDr
Hauptmann HA1-OM
Naginata NG-C3Ar

Merc
Mongoose II MON-268
Avatar AV1-OC
Avatar AV1-OU
Doloire DLR-OC
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
BattleMaster BLR-M3
Cyclops CP-11-C
Sunder SD1-OB
Cyclops CP-11-C2
Atlas AS7-CM
Strider SR1-OM
Naginata NG-C3Ar




And now everyone gets to tell me how wrong I am.

In the event of post or forum loss this post may be restored by anyone who has it.
« Last Edit: 05 March 2024, 04:29:38 by Greatclub »

Getz

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #2 on: 18 February 2024, 08:27:21 »
Thanks for pulling all this information together in one place.  I've found it surprising difficult to work out which masters are available to who so I expect I shall be consulting this list regularly.

It does frustrate me a lot that the relatively few fast masters that exist are so faction locked.  As an FWL player I tend to use the Owens a lot for spotting and BA transport, and the lack of a factionally available fast mech to tie their (fixed) C3 slaves together in a light lance is really annoying.  According to your list the lightest, fastest mech I can use is a 70 ton, 4/6 heavy mech...

Yes, I see the Strider OM, but do I want a completely unarmed, double master mech to just to link three Owens, and can you even connect regular slaves to a boosted master?
« Last Edit: 20 February 2024, 18:53:17 by Getz »

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Greatclub

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #3 on: 18 February 2024, 11:04:45 »
There's skulkers and maxims if the terrain allows it.

edit - or steal a mongoose from the lyrans, MUL not listing someone just means there isn't going to be two of the mech in a regiment.
« Last Edit: 18 February 2024, 14:31:43 by Greatclub »

spotH3D

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #4 on: 19 February 2024, 10:17:14 »
I too will be referring back to this, and will have to build a C3 lance around my new plastic Gunslinger, maybe include the cheezy 6T crusader in it.

Hellraiser

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #5 on: 19 February 2024, 19:17:17 »
It does frustrate me a lot that the relatively few fast masters that exist are so faction locked.  As an FWL player, I tend to use the Owens a lot for spotting and BA transport, and the lack of a factionally available fast mech to tie their (fixed) C3 slaves together in a light lance is really annoying.  According to your list the lightest, fastest mech I can use is a 70 ton, 4/6 heavy mech...

For years I've been saying there needs to be a Single Master configuration for both the Firestarter-O & the BlackHawk-KU that are general availability.

Making a C3 "Striker/Recon" lance for a full C3 Mech Company is annoyingly difficult.
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Starfury

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #6 on: 20 February 2024, 10:23:12 »
You can connect regular C3 slaves to a boosted master and I believe boosted slaves will connect to a regular C3 master. It's in a rules update/errata somewhere but I can't remember where.

Getz

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #7 on: 20 February 2024, 18:50:56 »
For years I've been saying there needs to be a Single Master configuration for both the Firestarter-O & the BlackHawk-KU that are general availability.

Making a C3 "Striker/Recon" lance for a full C3 Mech Company is annoyingly difficult.

100%.  Even a Strider with (for example) a C3M, a couple of LRM5s and a couple of medium lasers would do.

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Greatclub

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Re: MoTW: C3 Master 'Mechs
« Reply #8 on: 05 March 2024, 04:32:11 »
Was flipping through record sheets 3150 and found one I'd missed, the Yu Huang Y-H12GC

updated.

And I really expected more responses.
« Last Edit: 05 March 2024, 05:21:24 by Greatclub »